Chelsea Martin - Noms Bake Shop

Greetings, folks. Greetings to you. Thank you for listening, and welcome to the 300th episode of the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co the show by, for and about small businessing here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And here in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. 300. That's exciting.

Congrats, man.

Yeah, yeah. Congrats to you, too. It's like a movie, like, right? 300 was not a. Oh, yeah, yeah, there was.

There's a model car of a 300. There's a lot of three hundreds out there.

Lots of three hundreds. It's a great movie milestone, you know, kind of halfway through six years of or our sixth year of doing this. It's terrific. It's been a great education for me, hopefully for you, listening at your office or at home as well. And we thought we would talk about some of those kind of overarching concepts that have stuck with Dave and I today before we get into a great upcoming interview that we've got this week as well.

Yeah, absolutely. So normally, you know, this show is about you. We'll do this little segment about us, specifically about some of the things that Shannon and I have learned. As he said, if there's something, we are not going to explore these. We're merely going to sort of share our things that we have learned and that have benefited us from doing this show. If there's something here that resonates with you, email us feedbackusinessshow.co let us know. And then we will take an episode or a segment of an episode and dedicate it to exploring one or more of these topics in depth. Sound good? Deal. Deal.

Yeah. That's awesome.

Good. Why don't you start, man? What's, what's your first thing that you've got on the list?

Yeah, so I picked kind of five things because I.

Otherwise I'll never get to all five of them.

Yes. Never get it. So one of the biggest things I've learned of, of talking to hundreds of guests and all these topics is that support is available. You know, many times in my small business career, I've really felt alone and I wished I would have known about more resources like this podcast, small business show, small business groups, groups on LinkedIn, advisory boards, mentors, coaches. Get involved in your small business community, however, whatever way you're comfortable with. Because even though you may not need someone to talk to or get tips and advice from today, certainly it's going to come a time when you would like something or some help, and there's just all kinds of support out there and we've talked about so many different ways that you can get it. Don't forget it that it's out there for you.

Yeah, for sure. That was, that was one of the things on my list too is, you know, a few years ago I was having a rough spot with one of my businesses and really needed that board and didn't have it. And I reached out to Score and we talked about it on the show here. It was, it was, I mean the few months that I met with the, my advisors at Score changed everything because it just allowed me to zoom out a little bit on my business. So yeah, it, this is, it's a, it's a very valuable lesson and, and it feeds into, you know, I, I've often subscribed, but not necessarily practice the philosophy of that which is monitored is managed and, and SCORE really helped remind me of that. But you know, we talk about it in a lot of different ways. You, you, your favorite, my favorite piece of advice from you is check your bank balance every day. Right? Those kinds of things. When you're monitoring things, you will naturally lean toward managing them because you're seeing them regularly. It's easy to put your head, it's easy for me to put my head in the sand and just plow forward. And sometimes you need that kind of optimism. But, but it can be a danger to your business and of course therefore to you. So yeah, that, that, that, that measurable.

Thing is so important because often what I've realized in my life is that oftentimes I don't want to measure it because I may not be happy with what it tells me.

Well, that's it. Yeah, but, but you know, okay, so that takes me to, to, to my next one, which is again another favorite. Avoid fear based decisions. Right. That is a fear based decision right there. Like deciding not to look at the data because you might not like what it's about to tell you, but it's valuable. Right? So you know, that, that's, that that's been another huge one and really fit all fits in together and talking, you know, coming back to your first one, talking to your trusted board, whatever it is that comprises that and it really can be formed from a lot of different things, forces us to, forces me anyway to confront those things as opposed to just skipping by like I, I'm good at managing cash flow like I can. I'll get it. It's fine. It's fine. It's like. Well, but yeah, but you have a systemic problem sir, you need to address this. Right, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's very good. Good. My next one is, you know, we. We listen to so many great stories on this show, and. And I've just come to realize how important and what a great opportunity story is. It's critical not just for your customers, but also for your employees and maybe most importantly, for yourself. You know, the story of your business, the why. It's crucial to cultivate and share as much as you can. And it also helps program yourself and, you know, builds up your authenticity, helps create credibility. Don't neglect the story of your business, and if you don't think you have a good one, create it. It's also your opportunity because you get to make it.

You.

You know, as a small business owner, creating your story is the first step in leading a charmed life, which we talk about on the show all the time. You know, create your story. Wrap yourself around the story. You know, the. The myth, if you will, of will of what you. Why you're in business. Get some help if you need it, to create that good narrative and a great way to share your story and build credibility. Come on this podcast.

Absolutely.

Back at businessshow. Co. Share your story. You'll. You'll enjoy it. You'll benefit. You'll have a piece of marketing material that you can share with your customers. Your employees will enjoy hearing you on the show. Reach out to us and come on and tell us your story.

We need to get better. I need to get better about that, but I think collectively, you and I could could be better about going and being guests on other podcasts too, until that's true. Right? You know, yeah, yeah, that is.

That's a good point.

The value of taking action is really something. You know, I look back and I say, well, I've always known the value of it. But we. Because again, that which is monitored as managed. We talk about the value of taking action, the value of small business. Sing all the time. I got over the idea of ideas. We have listened to, to so many of you come on here and tell your stories about how you had an idea, but really it's the action that you took that made that idea into the thing that is yours. And even some of you that have come on and have had an idea that really isn't all that unique and quite frankly, isn't all that great. It doesn't really matter. You've taken it in your direction. Even if you don't saw someone else doing it, you did your spin on it because that's what we as humans do and made it into your own thing. So don't worry. One of the lessons that I've learned is don't worry about waiting for the great idea. Take an idea that resonates with you, that you feel is great, and then run with it, because that's where the value is going to be with you doing the running. And if you're not excited about the idea, even if you stole the idea or copying the idea from somebody else, it's okay. If you can get into it, that's the most important thing. And that's really, you know, one of the things I've taken away is. And I've even applied that to my existing businesses. Like, wait, you know, I do like this. You know, I'm not. Even though I've been doing this for 20 years or whatever, I still like it. Like, there's. There's something to do here. So. Yeah, yeah. The idea of action is, I think, the most important thing right there.

That's great.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's powerful.

Yeah.

That kind of leads me to one of mine, that you say this all the time. You know, every business is in the customer service business. Learn how to give great customer service. If you can learn that one trait, you can take an average idea or an idea someone else is implementing terribly, and you can create an incredible business around it. But if you learn the fundamental, basic parts of how to make your customers happy and how to turn problem situations, you know, or problem customers into loyal, you know, customers, that will tell everybody about your business. That single trait can be the foundation for success. I mean, I can't put too fine a point on it because you're going to then teach your employees, you're going to talk, you're going to use those skills throughout your organization and, you know, learning.

Go.

Go back to in our archives at BusinessShow Co and just search for customer service. We've done a ton of episodes on it because it's so important and, you know, learn how to give great customer service and it will pay back exponentially throughout your life.

Yeah, yeah. I've certainly gotten. I've always seen the value in it, but I've gotten better at it. Again, just because we're talking about it here. Yeah, we are doing. We are not hitting our mission here, Shannon, because we are defaulting to the thing that we normally do. We are teaching. Right. And instead of just saying, here's what I've taken out of this, it's like, let me teach you how to. No, it's Fine, it's great. But one thing that I have to really try and focus selfishly for a minute here, one thing that I have gotten out of doing this show is reminding myself that I'm good at this. Every day is not a fantastic day in business. Right? In fact, there are those things that will shake your confidence, certainly shake mine. You'll have periods of time, not even just days, but perhaps months, maybe even a year or two, where things just aren't going, Things maybe aren't growing the way you want to. And talking about it here and listening to other business owners and talking with all of you, it really has taught me that I'm, I'm good at this. I'm not great. I have plenty of things to learn. The more I learn, the more I know I need to learn. And that's like, perhaps the most valuable thing is listening to all the lessons that everybody brings. It's like, wow, I, I, I'm good at this, but I can learn a lot more. And opening that up. But, but really, that confidence that comes with helping others has really helped me learn more about my own skill set. And that obviously improves my game, too, for a huge. That's great.

Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

And.

That powering through those days that aren't that great or weeks or months that aren't that great on my list is, is all about resilience and grit. You know, you need resilience and grit to, to persevere as a small business owner. And we often on the show, we have to, Dave and I have to kind of pull ourselves back down from some of these lofty things we talk about, because we can look at our life, you know, backwards now. So we have the, the benefit of, you know, kind of looking at thing how great this was, but you kind of gloss over a lot often that. So it's important to understand that it is going to be hard. The charmed life has deep lows and soaring highs. So, you know, hopefully you get more of those soaring highs and, and things do tend to even out over time. But you got to understand and embrace the fact that you're gonna have to be resilient. You're gonna have to power through, learn tricks and, and techniques to, to get through those tough times, because there are better times ahead. If you stop during the tough times, you'll never or you'll always regret it. In my opinion, if I had stopped, that would have been my story. You know, I've talked on the show a lot about some, you know, huge mistakes in my life, business life, you know, I made a million dollar mistake one morning, and if I had stopped after that and not come back and come through that other side of that, I don't know that I would be here today talking about this.

You probably have a day job, man.

Yeah. Don't scare me like that.

You know, that's a good thing to scare yourself with, right? Like what? You definitely wouldn't have just sat there and not earned an income. Right. You would have figured out, maybe take a chapter 11, you know, whatever it is, and then go get a day job because you don't have the capital anymore to, you know, fund a business. And. And there you go, you know, you provide for your family, provide for yourself, and that's what you do. And there's. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but the story that you told, and therefore the story you lived is a better story.

I would agree, 100%.

I think so, anyway. Yeah.

Yeah.

But you're right. It takes that resilience and grit. Yeah, man, it does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Yeah, no, it's good. I. I could go on and on. Do you have one last one?

I do have one.

All right.

One that I think is very important, maybe the most important. If you're thinking about starting a small business, just getting going or, you know, you're on the fence, don't want to leave your day job or corporate job or whatever. The thing I've. I've learned from this show is there's less risk than you think.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. Relying on a paycheck from someone else is super risky. You don't know. You're not a. You may not have been in control. You could get downsized. We could have a pandemic. You don't know what's going to happen.

Right. The way I like to look at that is if you started a small business, would you want to have just one customer or would you want to have 10 customers?

Yeah, that's really good.

Right. And if. Because if you're working for somebody else. Yeah. There's some laws to protect you that don't exist for your customers, you know, versus your employer. But you still have just the one customer is really what it is.

Yeah, that's right. So you could have thousands of customers paying you. And, you know, I come back to. Relying on yourself to create revenue streams is way less risky than relying on someone else to give you a paycheck and way more beneficial. And. And the upside is. Yeah, the upside is. Is it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. And Now I think looking at technology and, you know, I can remember trying to start companies and trying to figure out how are we going to accept payments, how do we get this money? Right.

Right.

And every. Creating revenue streams has never been more accessible. And, and I, I want to. Accessible is is the right word. At first. I put never been, you know, easier, but it's not easy. There's all the kinds of hoops to jump through, but it's accessible and, and you can definitely do it. And so just again, it's a lot less risky than everyone else tells you.

Yeah.

And other people, look who's adv, look who's telling you it's risky. There are. Is it another small business owner? Probably not. It's probably someone that's getting a paycheck.

And that's the only, the only other small business owner that might tell you it's risky is someone that you're about to compete directly with. Right.

So you know, someone who's failed and stopped and didn't have that resilience to power through. So their whole life story is about, oh, we tried this. It didn't work. It's. It's too, you know, small businesses don't work. And I know a few people like that. They're awesome people. But they're. Part of that story is like, oh, I started a gym and it failed and we couldn't figure out how to make it work. So now I. Medical equipment. Okay. Okay, that's cool. But I don't consider that person an advisor to, you know, a potential small business owner. Take the risk. There's never going to be a better time than today.

Well, there is, but it already passed. It was yesterday, so. Yeah, take it today. That's right.

Turn off your tv. I was just talking to a per. I have a group of people on Facebook related to my handbag business that I mentor. And you know, this person was asking about, how do I make this work by the time I get home and this. And kids. And I say, well, you know, don't ever turn your television on. And you know, don't sit on the couch, you know, sit at the table and get. Take a couple hours at night, you're going to be tired. But that's how, I mean, that's how we started deals on the web. Absolutely. We got going, we started getting things going. Renee, my wife, she managed, she did coupons, I did deals, and we did that for a year before we had any income. Enough to hire somebody to do it part time. We didn't make any money. But we had somebody doing it for us and building the foundation of a future business. That was tremendous for both of us.

Yeah, no, it's true. That is perhaps the best piece of advice that you will ever get in starting a small business is turn off your tv. It is, it's not easy, but it is true. It is true.

It is true. So those are my top fives. You know, I could have top 50 and all that kind of stuff. But and again, if there's anything you'd like us to expand on that you heard today, if there's things that you have learned that you'd like to share with us, I could tell you there are not two people in the world that would be happier to hear from you. Feedbackusinessshow.co to let us know what you've learned from this show and what you would like to learn.

There you go. Well, I have two sponsors to talk about and the first one is something you definitely are going to want to learn about. And that is our friends at Build hr. Right? Look, we all know that we have to do HR related tasks and be the HR department for our run for our businesses and also run our businesses, right? So why not get an actual HR department to be your partner without spending time and money to hire a full or even part time employee? That's what Build HR does, is and does. In fact, we've had the way we found buildhr and the way they found us. We had Kelly, the founder of Buildhr, on the show. Here she is, your HR nerd. I say that because I'm a nerd, but I'm not an HR nerd. I'm a tech nerd, right? I'm in some cases a business nerd. I'm definitely not an HR nerd. You want nerds on your team and Build HR is going to be your HR partner, your HR nerd. They're the ones you want on your side. They work with you to meet your exact needs and plans. Start as low as just $99 a month. So leave HR to build HR and focus on what matters most, your business. In fact, you can Even text build HR right now. To learn more, text 720-513-2474. That's 720-513-2474 and we'll have it linked in the show notes too so that you can get it from there at businessshow Co. And you can save your business from legal liability and make your life easier. You can also Visit them@yourhrsource.com Our thanks to BuildHR for sponsoring this episode. Next up is textexpander@textexpander.com podcast another fantastic resource for you. We just talked about how important it is to learn how to give great customer service. We are going to give you a tool to use right now and it is Textexpander. In fact, if you go to Textexpander.com podcast, you will get 20% off your first year. Textexpander is perhaps the most valuable tool I use for giving great customer service because I like to be both efficient and accurate and comprehensive with people. Those three things often don't fit together. You kind of have to choose at most two, right? Well, not with textexpander, because what I get to do is write out the full response that I want to give to people that have a certain question or a certain query or are in a certain position. But I don't want it to be exactly the same for everybody. And textexpander lets me customize my response, but it also lets me just put it in a spot where I'm going to find it when I need it, as opposed to digging through my outbox saying, or my sent box saying, oh, yeah, I know I've written something like this before. Who was it that I sent it to? Like, that's, that's a great idea because something you've already written is probably a better place to start than just from scratch. But you don't want to have to spend the time finding it. You don't want to have to spend the time tweaking it. Textexpander takes care of all of that for you and you can share the snippets that you create in textexpander with your entire team. So everybody gets the benefits of these great, well crafted things that you and your company are putting together. So go check it out. Textexpander.com podcast and our thanks to Textexpander for sponsoring this episode. All right, Shannon. Well, half of 300 episodes. The 300th episode. We've already done half of 300 episodes, but half of the 300, 300th episode is in. In the can. As, as we like to say. I'm ready to get the other half going with this great interview.

We have a great interview today and it, it's, I think it's about something we all love and we would love the idea of creating a small business around it. I'm not going to tell you what the product is, but I'm really looking forward to talking to Chelsea Martin today.

It's gonna be great. Well, he is Shannon Jean. I am Dave Hamilton, and this is episode 300 of the Small Business Show.

Don't do things the cost effective way because it will not be the cost effective way. If you do something the cheap way, you will end up paying more than what the expensive way was. And I say that in various ways, from machinery, equipment, to website development. You know, there's so many times we cut corners because in all fairness, you're a small company. You're trying to save money, you're trying to get out there. And we, we did that so many times. And what would happen is it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be good. And it would. Whatever it was, whether it's our website or our equipment, it and it breaks down. And then so not only did you spend the money on it, but now you have to spend the money to buy the thing that you didn't want to spend the money on in the first place. So you've spent even more money.

Hey, Dave, you know, I have this philosophy that if you want people to remember your name, you need to feed them, give them food, right?

Yeah, that's totally true. Like, drinks help too, but food's a good place to start.

Yeah, we're all in those things. So I'm really excited. Our guest today has built a business around making a great impression on your current and your potential customers with branded boxes of goodness that'll put a smile on everybody's face. Chelsea Martin, she's the co owner of Noms Bakeshop, where they specialize in connecting you with your customers on an entirely different level than standard marketing techniques. And since we all love cookies, I'm especially interested in learning about how they created a business around something so important to all of us. So, Chelsea, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Yeah, it's cool. What an awesome business to start. You know, that's. That's really great. So let's talk about how you guys came up with the idea for noms. And maybe even more important, since we love action so much on this show, what actions did you take to move noms from an idea to an actual business?

Oh, man. Okay, so it is very interesting because we are a family owned business, which is an interesting dynamic in itself, but we're gonna talk.

We're gonna talk about that too.

Yeah. So this actually didn't start necessarily because we all came together and said, hey, well, one, we did not all come together. And Say, hey, let's all work together. But. But we definitely came all together, or didn't come together because we said, let's begin a company together. It actually was more of a series of different events that kind of all unfolded that led us down this journey. And so if we go back a little bit, you know, in about 2014, my husband and I, or husband now, so spoiler alert, we were dating, and he. He and I were kind of meeting, you know, you meet the family. And so I was meeting his family, he was meeting mine, and he was going on a vacation with my family, and we were doing, like, a camping lake type of trip, something like that. And his family, his father and mother had sent a basket or a gift basket of baked goodies that his dad had actually baked. And when they did that, I kind of learned that his father, who is a retired computer programmer, nothing to do with baking, but as just kind of a side hobby, he really liked to tinker around with recipes and refine them and make them even better. And so my husband and his sisters kind of grew up with this as just a total hobby that his dad would do. He would bake them and, of course, have excess, and he would bring them to their sporting events, and he would also make, you know, fun holiday baskets for the neighbors, things like that. Just completely not nothing to do with selling them, but he did become known, you know, from my husband's, you know, like, the sporting events and like, team players, as, like, the cookie man. Right. He was. Or is he gonna bring cookies to this event? Or the neighbors would.

It's a good person to be known as, right?

Not. Not a bad reputation, for sure. So. So I kind of got to know that side of him because he had brought this gift basket to our family. And so it was nothing new for my husband, Trevor, or his sisters, Andy and Allison, but it was nothing new for them. But of course, it was new for us. So when we, you know, tasted these cookies and they were amazing, there was nothing new to my husband. He wasn't like, oh, wow. Like, the reaction was incredible because he was just so used to it. And I kind of make a joke about him. Him and his sisters being recalibrated to what a good cookie is, because to them, it's normal. To us, it's amazing, you know, and so my. My family on my side, my parents are business owners, and I make jokes about them kind of going, you know, one, two, world domination. And so they, of course, tried these cookies and are like, you should sell them, and, you know, that's one of those things where if you make jewelry as a hobby and it's cute, people are like, you should sell this if you do anything that's kind of a hobby that you're good at. People always say that. So nobody took it totally seriously. But we did decide actually my husband's father, he did kind of just start to make the cookies and sell them at my parents business and then also like local call centers and farmers markets just completely as a hobby, something to do now that he's retired. And my husband helped him with that, like get started, get the packaging, you know, just little things like that. And from that I think the reaction there is what really drove us to consider this being a company. Because before it's oh, my girlfriend's parents think you make good cookies or the neighbors think you make good cookies, but that doesn't have the same, it doesn't resonate the same as, you know, hundreds of strangers. And so seeing that continuous reaction really started to get the attention of my husband. And my husband, who is an entrepreneur through and through, and it's in his blood, he started to see an opportunity for himself to say, okay, how can we help grow this? This now has my attention. I'm kind of passionate about this. And he jumped on board and started to develop this. And I think his father was like, no, no, no, I like making cookies, but I don't know if I want this level of responsibility. So my sister in law, now Trevor's sister, she stepped in as head of baking and kind of took over all the recipes and all of that. And so I say it's a series of events because it really is. We started this cookie business and I hadn't fully jumped in yet because it wasn't a full fledged business business. We were out of the home kitchen, it wasn't like a, you know, huge production. But as they started to grow and see the interest, the holidays came around. And at my parents house, because they're business owners, they started to get the traditional corporate holiday gifts, you know, and, and because you're a business owner, you get a ton of corporate holiday gifts, but because you're a business owner, you also give a ton of holiday gifts.

And we're doing it right now. Yep, absolutely.

Exactly. This is the time. And so, but you know, one of the simple facts with that is that we're all busy and if you're a business owner, you are busy. So a lot of the holiday gifts we noticed tended to manifest in the way of becoming gift baskets. And while those are really great and you enjoy them. When you're a business owner and maybe you have, you know, 10, 20, 50, 200 gifts that you're sending out, of course you're going to send a gift basket because it's convenient and you're busy in general and you want to send something nice. But when you're on the receiving end and you receive 10 or 20 gift baskets, there's only so many crackers you can have before you're like, okay, these are just going to sit on the counter and, you know, not collect dust. But it's meant to be a kind gesture. But on the receiving end, it doesn't.

You're still eating them in June. That's right.

Or you're like, okay, kids, dig in. Figure, you know, we're like the little scavengers and grabbing all the pretzels and things. And. And it's not because it's not a nice gesture, it's just that it does. There's just so many of them and it's all overload.

Yeah. We stopped gift baskets a long time ago with our company. We do something very different and people love it because it's. It's not a gift basket.

Yeah. So.

So that's where we came. We were basically like, oh, this is our spot where we have an opportunity now to different to actually find a space in not being a cookie company, but being a gifting company. And so that's what really drove the growth and everything else moving forward was made on that decision, which was how do we do packaging that is customizable because corporate gifting. How do you stand out? Well, putting your logo or putting the recipient's name or putting their logo or any of that, you know, that helps look like you went the extra mile. But also with the simplicity of ordering a gift basket so that it's not so complicated that you then end up ordering gift basket again. So that's really what drove us forward into developing the company to where it is today. And so it was just a very interesting journey with a lot of missteps. But that's kind of where we got today.

So you. I want to. There's something you mentioned in there that I don't want to lose track of. And that was when your father in law said, well, wait, I. You know, I like. I'm paraphrasing here. But he said, he said, I like my hobby of cookies. I don't want it to be my job. And instead of just putting the brakes on, you did something that's really difficult for new business owners to do. And that is you delegate. It said, well, wait a minute, we still have everything we need. We're just not going to have you doing the work. No problem. We'll delegate that off to her. And she, you know, took it and ran with it and all that good stuff like that. There's a huge value in that there because if you don't have the passion to do it as a business, you, it won't succeed or it's very difficult to have it succeed. You need to want to take the action that will get you to the point of success. And so you just found somebody else. I mean, it's really brilliant. But that's, that's often where things stop is the wait, I don't want to make this my job. It's like, wait, wait, wait, you don't have to. Like, he was retired. He, presumably financially, he didn't need the cash flow from the business right out of the gate. So, you know, you, you had some flexibility built into the equation there. It's really smart. Really smart.

Thank you. Yeah. And I think it's. It was. And, and don't get me wrong, obviously those were a lot of conversations that happened because of course, like, you know, this, we had to convince someone why this might be a good idea. Because you're talking to somebody who already did his time. He's like, hey, yeah back you guys, what are you trying to do here? But we were fortunate enough that my sister in law, Andy, she did really quickly jump in and say, I think that this is something, if you guys are building this, this is something I would like to be a part of. And she is fantastic at not only taking the reins from dad and helping with those recipes, but then it's not even just the taking that, taking the reins on which you can find, but she was very passionate about staying true to his recipes while also having the interest and dedication to scale up. Right. Because we're not making 12 cookies at a time. And that's a totally different animal that we none of us were prepared for. None of us had that experience. And so she was able to take that on too. And so of course we're super grateful. And then of course their father is excited because this has become a, you know, true and true family company.

That's great.

And really. Sorry, go ahead.

Well, I was just gonna say the size of the ovens must have grown exponentially. Right.

Oh my. So, okay. Yeah. So we started in the home kitchen and then as we started to grow, we actually renovated a Different. I feel so bad for his parents. We actually renovated a different part of their house into another kitchen. And poor mom was like, I did not sign up for this guy's. No, but at the same time then once we outgrew that, my husband then found a commercial kitchen space that was not a commercial kitchen space. We made it into one. And having no experience in baking, I remember taking duct tape and putting it on the ground and mimicking what a freezer would look like or an oven oven or how to walk through the space without having a space because we've never done it before. And those ovens are quite a bit different. You know, we've got. She could speak to this. I want to say it's like, you know, 20 racks or something like that that all go in at one time and it lifts them up and rotates them so everything is baked evenly. It's a whole.

Yeah, I could imagine. Yeah. So, okay, I want to talk about the family aspect working, you know, and it's not just working with your spouse. Right. Because you've got your sister in law and everything. Dave and I have worked with our spouses years. We always like, you know, hearing, you know, from other people that have done that kind of thing and talking about the benefits and challenges that come with working not just with your spouse, but with your family. Have you had to create, you know, systems to help you overcome those kind of challenges or did it just all naturally fall in place, you know?

Okay, so who, who has answered that it naturally falls in place? That's what I.

That'S why I always.

Kind like, no, it's, you know what, it, it absolutely has on a, on a bunch of different levels. I mean, if you take one just Trevor and I alone as just spouses. I, I've never actually experienced, you know, a lot of people have asked, you know, how do you work with your spouse? Or they make kind of jokes about it. I can't imagine not working with him. And I know that sounds kind of silly, but don't get me wrong, there's nothing, there's not. It's not like it's all smooth and we're not stressed sometimes or dealing with things, but at the same time, you know, the idea that my whole day, I could go my whole day and then come home and I'm like, I haven't seen you all day. And I love the idea to build, to build this thing together. And so, you know, most. We don't really have too many issues working together in regards to just like, oh, we see each other too much. But I think for the whole family in general, there is a bit of. You have to be mindful about making time. 1. You know, we used to joke in the beginning stages because sometimes, like, somebody would be like, oh, we only talk about work at dinner. And it's like, well, that's what we're doing, you know, and that's what you're passionate about day in, day out. And that's pretty normal. But on like a family and a significant other side, some of the things that, you know, Trevor and I have definitely worked to is making sure we have date night, which sounds ridiculous because we see each other all day, every day. But it's not a date night where we don't talk about work. Because I think no matter what, when you're passionate about something and you're involved in something, you're going to talk about work. But it was, let's actually mindfully go somewhere and spend time together because it is so easy when you are giving everything you have to be to work all day and then get home and then maybe you turn on the tv, but then you're on your phone answering emails or, you know, and then all of a sudden you have spent all day, every day with your spouse and not spent any time with your spouse. And it's a very strange thing I wasn't necessarily prepared for, you know, and so we definitely are still trying to do that and the same with, you know, all of the family. And then additionally, there is that layer of complexity with, with family, whether that's one sibling or all the siblings or a spouse of communication. And, you know, there's a. You, the ones you love are. Are the closest to you, which means they see the most stressed out that you are or, or you're able to really like, vent in times of, you know, and this goes for anybody, right? This is anybody in any walk of life, usually your best friend or your mom or somebody, they're going to hear the stress that you have or the venting that you have that other people don't hear because they're the closest to you and you feel vulnerable enough that you can do that. But on the flip side, those are also your coworkers. So when you're stressed, usually the person that you can be a little bit more direct with is now your sibling that you're being direct. You know, like, it's.

So it kind of changes. It changes how you communicate with them.

Right, right. That is a learning process because now every family meeting is a family meeting and a Business meeting and it becomes, you know, a little bit more. There's just extra layers of complexity to it. So we're always working on that. I think just like any family working on communication, any family working together is always working on communication and making sure that everyone understands that they're respected and valued and sometimes that the people that you love the most, that can fall by the wayside because you're busy and the people that are not as close to you, you have to make sure you do that. So we've definitely really tried to like mindfully recognize each other rather than just kind of let the other people hear the, the stressed parts, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, no.

Do you ever, do you ever compartmentalize the business stuff out of the way? Like do you have rules like this dinner, we're not going to talk about business or, or whatever that might be just to keep it under wraps? Or is that, are you just more working on the perpetual balance of it?

I think it probably just depends on who you ask, to be honest. So when we first started that was very common that somebody you know would say, oh, can we not talk about work tonight? And that's. It is fine. But if that's what you're doing all day every day, and all of you are doing it all day, every day, yes, you can talk about like Justin Bieber for like five minutes or you know, but at the, at the same time you don't, you, you're talking about what you're passionate about or you're talking about what you want to tackle next. So of course we talk about non work related things too. But I think when you get together with anybody, usually you're like, what's going on with you? You know, how's school or how's work? And you end up hearing about work. In this case, we just all talk about work because we all, and we all work together. So we definitely talk about other things, but I don't think we put too many rules on it. We might hear crickets for a minute, but that's only because, you know, I think we all really want this to work and to grow it. And so there's different parts of it we talk about more than others or, you know, something like that. But it's, it's pretty hard to tame.

Yeah, I think it becomes, you know, your lifestyle. I mean, you're speaking about it. My kids have grown up, up with us talking about it. And I think, you know, I would like to think anyway, you know, they've learned from it and how We. We're solving problems or talking about all this, that and the other thing, you know, that happened at the office. So. Yeah, I. I see your point. It's a challenge not to discuss it a lot, for sure.

Yeah, I definitely try. I think we try to obviously talk about other things, but I think we just try not to put too many, like, rules on it or, you know, or anything like that, because it's almost like one of those when you tell people not to think about something, all you're going to think about is that thing or something like that.

Yeah. So you got. You get everything going, you've had some success. You know, what were some of the obstacles that got in your way of that success, and how did you overcome them?

Oh, well, I think obstacles that got in the way of our success. It's interesting because I think some of the pivotal moments and one I kind of touched on when we first started was the realization of who we are as a company. Because when you tell our backstory and this lengthy journey of how we got to where we are, it sounds like we just woke up one day and we're like, oh, we're a gifting company. But it was actually a challenge to make that kind of revelation that we are not a cookie company. And I think part of that, in getting there, it took us a while of trying to figure out, like, why isn't this working or what. What are we doing wrong with our branding or our advertising? And, you know, how are we speaking to our audience? And I think part of that was the not realizing that we are talking for a while, we were talking to our potential clients like, we're a cookie company, which is different. That's a, you know, if you're buying, not that it's necessarily Oreos, but there's a difference between impulse buying, you know, stuffed cookies for yourself, because they looked really good on Instagram, and they look really good on Instagram. But there's a difference between that kind of product, which is amazing and has its own space, and buying a gift for someone else for some strategic reason, whether that is either telling them happy Birthday or that is prospecting for your business to grow your business. And those are different. So the. The messaging to your clients or your prospective clients looks different, the advertising looks different. And so that was a lot of stumbling. One of the big things that I think was a huge moment for us also was in our packaging in itself. When we started, we were a gifting company. And so we. Or, I mean, not when we very started, but when we Started and realized, you know, this is where we're going to live in this space. We created these gift boxes that we love. And you know, one of them is this beautiful rigid white box and it's got a magnetic closure and it's very cool. But just like flowers, for example, you can order flowers and you can order them just as flowers, or you can order the upgraded vase or you can get the specialty vase. You know, like there's different kind of tiers. We thought, well, we have our cookies and our cookies are amazing, but we want a really great box. But we probably need another box because there's probably different types of gifts. There's the birthday gift and then there's the holiday gift. And that's when you usually spend a little bit more on your clients or your, you know, loved ones. It's a little bit more of a spend. So we need a higher tier for our gifts. So what we did is we created these beautiful wooden slide top boxes, kind of like a cigar box style, you know, that, that had our branding also just on the lid etched onto it. And so it kind of demanded a higher price point. And it made sense. Okay, you could buy this smaller box in like the white beautiful box, and you could buy that and it's full color and pretty and that's, you know, $30. Or you could buy the upgraded wood box for 50 or 60, depending on how big they are. So that made sense to us. And when we started selling them, nobody bought the wooden boxes, like zero people. And we, we actually got to a point in 2018 where we did a full photo shoot for, for the upcoming year. For 2018, we did full photo shoot, beautiful cookies, everything. We didn't photograph a single wood box because we were pulling that from our line. We were not, it wasn't selling. So what's the point in, you know, trying to force that down people's throats, no pun intended. So they, so we pulled it from the line, didn't do any professional pictures of it. And then we had a meeting with a company locally and we're local to Phoenix, Arizona and we had a meeting with a company there that was interested in doing client gifts. And we brought both styles of box. And as we were leaving, the man we were meeting with just kind of stared at the wooden box for a while and you could tell he was thinking. And then he just looked at us and he said, can you put my logo on this box? And it was such a dumb aha moment. But my husband, of course, you know, we're hungry for sales, we're trying to grow. And he is not one to say no. He's one to say, let me figure it out. And so he said, can I have a couple weeks to figure this out? And a couple weeks later, we had a laser etching machine in our building. And we are. Instead of. What we failed to realize is nobody wants a wooden box with our logo on it.

Right.

With their logo on it. And we.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's worth. That's your. Your logo is not worth $20 a box to me. But my logo is.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we're like, how did we miss this moment? But we were. A huge point for us is turnaround time. We're not interested in outsourcing gift boxes so that when people buy gifts. And I often equate this to flowers, and that's only because I equate it to flowers in the sense of when you're buying it, it's for a purpose or for a holiday, and you want it now, you don't want to say, I'd like to buy this gift in three weeks. So we're not interested in having really lengthy turnaround times. So we ended up getting laser machines in house. We ended up ordering a lot of new lids because we had no use for those ones. And we just do in house customization. And I, like, almost cursed. But I will tell you what. We. Our sales changed dramatically. Not only did they, of course, increase, but the wooden boxes were a hit, and we almost removed them completely. And it wasn't. It was just a failure to pivot a little bit or see it through a different lens rather than just we were thinking, oh, either people want this or not. And I think that was a. It was an obstacle or just like a blind spot, I guess that, you know, when we. When we saw it, it really tremendously changed the trajectory of our company and where we're heading.

I often say you don't want to necessarily let your customers drive what you're doing with your business. I mean, you need to have things that are valuable to your customers. But sometimes that means not having everyone as a customer, but having the right people as customers. However, listening to everything that is said to you, even if you're going to throw it out, you know, put it through your filter, and if it resonates like this one, clearly did you know, the moment he said it, you had this aha moment. It's like, ah, okay, like, yes, let's do that. Like, it's okay to listen to your customers. You don't have to do everything they ask, but do process everything they ask and it can be valuable.

Yeah. And I think it's a, it's just a balance between, you know, you don't want to tell all your customers what they want, but you don't want to force it down their throats. It's just kind of a, I want to listen to what our customers are saying so we know the direction that we're traveling and that has helped us understand like what kind of path do we want to carve. But you still want to stay true to your brand or your vision or your mission, whatever that is. Because you know, for some people that might, that might be a non negotiable and that will dictate whether they're successful or not, if people want that or not. But if you have that flexibility in marrying the two visions of what you foresee for your company and then what, how it solves a problem for your clients, then it's a win win.

That's really great. So looking at, you know, your marketing material, your website, one of the things that, that I loved was this comment. You know, it says good cookies save marriages, friendships and lives. Tell us where that came from and the impetus behind that.

Probably a little bit of my snarky attitude. But I think we definitely like to be playful with our messaging in general. But at the core of this, I think it's just more of a nod to relationships. We are a family owned company and our business is not just in others businesses and growing them, but you're growing them through developing relationships. And it's even more than that because for us, the core product was something that started with dad. Right. It was this cookie that brought everybody after a game to the same place at the table, right off the side of the field to enjoy cookies together and communicate or the same neighbors that are coming over or the same colleagues that are all coming into the same conference room to share cookies together. That gets, gathers people together, that's making connections, that's making or connecting relationships that didn't necessarily exist before and ultimately growing everybody and lifting everyone up. So you know, it sounds kind of silly on one side of just like, oh, you're doing corporate gifts. But at the core the reason people are doing that is for relationships. And so we just think, you know, one, nobody wants crummy cookies. Nobody's sitting around at the conference room enjoying crummy cookies. So. So good cookies help build those relationships. And that's kind of where that came from. We like to be a little bit, you Know, our messaging is a little bit sassy because we're a bunch of kids and we're not kids, but we're. We're dad's kids. So we just like to have fun with it. But yeah, that at the core, it's all about relationships, and that's what we believe in.

Yeah.

And help with.

Yeah. We talk about creating your own story here on the show all the time and how you have the choice so you could choose to be. Oh, we're just. Just, you know. Yeah, we're just another gift box thing. But no, no, no. You know, this. This product brings people together in relationships, and that's a way better story that's interesting, not only for your customers, but for you and your employees. That's really cool. So, you know, I love hearing about everything that works well, and I appreciate, you know, you've been real upfront with that. We always ask a question of all our guests about, you know, mistakes because we're such big fans of them here on the show. I've made so many. I don't think Dave has made any. But we love to look back on them and talk about what we've learned. Is there something that you would say would be your best mistake? Something that stuck with you, taught you a valuable lesson as a business owner.

So, okay, so I think, okay, the lit thing, I love that mistake or that learning opportunity. First of all, I've said this before, but our motto, like our company slogan should be it was a learning opportunity because the amount of times we've had to say that for our mistakes has been beyond counting.

But we call mistakes tuition here. It's. It's how. Yeah, we're on the same wavelength. No problem.

Yeah, we've definitely made our share of, like, you know, mistakes or. And. And that. And that part of that is just nobody in our company has had experience one with food or manufacturing or any of this at this point scale. So we have learned everything. I want to say the hard way, but we just. We have learned it through immersion. And I think one of the best or one of the mistakes we've made over and over and over, which I guess has accumulated to. Our best mistake would be don't do things the cost effective way, because it will not be the cost effective way. If you do something the cheap way, you will end up paying more than what the expensive way was. And I say that in various ways, from machinery, equipment, to website development. You know, there's so many times we cut corners because in all fairness, you're a small Company, you're trying to save money, you're trying to get out there. And we did that so many times. And what would happen is it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be good and it would, whatever it was, whether it's our website or our equipment and it breaks down. And then so not only did you spend the money on it, but now you have to spend the money to buy the thing that you didn't want to spend the money on in the first place. So you've spent even more money. And I think that's one of the biggest things that we did overall in just constantly, because we were just so small, trying to keep everything tight. And it ended up making us go back and redo things over and over and over.

Yeah, I think that's great advice and I think we've all been there. I mean, when you first time you look at like, you know, building your website and you're like, well, you can spend, you know, 500 bucks or 50,000 bucks, you know, what do you. What's in between and what you should do it. So, yeah, I think that's great. So what's on the future path for noms? I mean, are you just hustling to grow as large as you can? Are you focusing on being more efficient? What's the priorities for 2021 once we get through this? The longest year in history of 2020.

The strangest year. Yeah. So all of the above in a way. I mean, I think I'm so proud of our team and what's come together for us in regards to just the growth that we've had year over year, but then also just seeing the, the roles, the roles that we have within the company and people really coming into them and owning their departments, it just, it's almost like we're a real company. No, I just. But it just feels like before it was just this family owned company and now it's, it just, it's really becoming real. And so of course, in doing that and having everyone just master their own departments, we are becoming more and more efficient all the time. And we are. And so that part is definitely always on the table. We're always looking to grow and get our name out there. Now that we are more efficient, now that our website is up and running, we just want people to know that, you know, we are not a local Arizona business. We ship nationwide. We can produce thousands of gifts if you're needing them. You know, we are. We have scaled up and built this in a way that we can take on you know, the whole nation. And that's what we're aiming for. But in addition, we are always listening to our customers and we're also thinking of ways that we can, you know, improve and innovate our products. So of course we're going to continue to introduce new cookie flavors or brownies or things like that that are natural for the actual product, you know, in, in the gift box itself. But we're also looking to really continue to let our clients, who are now established clients, or many of them are established clients who have been using our gift boxes for years, how do we make them now stand out as more people use our gift boxes? So, you know, we are looking to a lot of different technology innovations within our website. So, for example, right now we've implemented something really cool where when the recipient of a gift box gets their cookies, there's a little, little insert in there that gives them instructions on how to send a thank you, like video or video or audio clip or whatever to the, the recipient. They just enter in the order number and they say, you know, hey, Dave, thank you so much for these cookies. It was amazing. Absolutely love them. And they can even send like a video of the cookies and things like that. And that's really cool for the corporate world because yes, you would tell your mother thank you for sending cookies, but in the corporate world, they don't always get that response. And so prompting them, it really closes the loop with the sender and makes them feel like, wow, this is, this is really cool. This is working and it made them happy. And then additionally, of course, we're trying to move forward with doing really cool stuff like video boxes when you open up the gift box and having that video, which is amazing for corporate, if you're doing any kind of either, either. Well, web events right now because we're not doing a lot of in person, but web events or invitations to events or prospecting where you say, hey, Shannon, it would be amazing to connect with you. You know, I hope you enjoy these cookies. You know, something like that where it's, it's just got a little bit more warmth to it because it's even more personable. And so we're just always looking to elevate the game in that way. And that's what we've got on the docket for 2021.

Yeah, I love that. The connection and the relationship part of your whole concept I think is just so powerful. It's really great. So, so one of the things we really believe, action is so critically important. So much so that we like to think of the term small business. It really should be a verb, you know, not a noun. So if you could recommend one action item that you could share with our small business owner listeners that are out there right now, what do you think that would be something that they could do today to help them be more successful?

Okay, so I guess this is tough because it's definitely dependent on the business itself and the size in regards to if you're independent or not. But I would say take a second. And I know this kind of goes back to what we said earlier about listening, but listen to your people. And what I mean by that is that can look like, listen to your people internally, because you might have a staff, and it might be five people or 10 people or even larger. But take inventory of who's sitting where of your culture. Because one of the things that I think that we've noticed is we have such great people in our company, and sometimes we've even not. I wouldn't say we've ever necessarily thought we didn't have great people, but if something's not working, I think sometimes you think it might be a person, but you might have the right person in the wrong seat, and they might thrive in a different seat. Or, you know, sometimes things that aren't actually broken, it's that you can just do some tweaking. And it really does elevate everybody within the company. We have so much talent internally that we have developed from people that did not have those skills necessarily when they were hired. Maybe, you know, for example, our production department, our. I call her our laser queen. She was hired to be an admin. She had zero experience on that. But we recognized within our company a person who was passionate about the company and the people and loved being there. And we were so excited to develop her and develop her skills rather than say, oh, you're not, you know, you have no experience with that, you know, and that's not always feasible in every way. But listening to your people in the client side and what they're needing, what problem do you want to solve for them, but what is their real problem, you know, rather than forcing that vision, you know, down people's throats, what is. Listen to what their pain points are and see what you can do about that, even if that means pivoting a little bit. So I think it's just being a little bit nimble and. And flexible to pivoting, whether that's internally or with your clients. I think it really just like our gift boxes with the lids it's such a small change that just dramatically shifted everything for us. And you'd be surprised because when you're so close to something, you can't actually see the full picture, even if you think you can. And so it's definitely been a unique experience for us growing this company. But your people, whether they're internally or externally, they're your biggest, most valuable asset and they're going to help you get where you want to go.

Yeah. And as a small business, when you're just, you're like running constantly, taking that, it may sound like it's not an action, but stopping maybe some of the other actions that are going on so you can listen to your team and listen to your customers, I think is, is great advice. So, Chelsea, you know, thank you for coming on the show again. Some really great lessons here. I'm really excited about your business. I can't wait to try your cookies. But what's the best way for our listeners to connect with you and to learn more about Noms Bakeshop?

Absolutely. So our website is getnoms.com so just like you give noms and you get noms. So@getnams.com we're actually just an online bake shop and we ship nationwide. So you can go on there and kind of check out the cookies. You can see the gift boxes. You can even upload your own logo or art or photo or anything like that directly on the box and check, check out. But if you had questions or anything like that, we can, we do everything in house and we could develop designs for you or give you mock ups of what a box would look like with your design. And then if you're looking just for inspiration or pictures of really good cookies, we're of course on Facebook and then we're also on Instagram at. And we're always there. You can send us messages and ask questions or just look at all the beautiful pictures of cookies. But yeah, there's a lot of inspiration of gift boxes and things like that on there, too.

Nice. That's wonderful. Well, you know, again, thank you again, you know, some great information. Please, you know, keep in touch, come back and, you know, keep us posted on how things are going.

Thank you so much for having me. I had a lot of fun and.

I want to eat some cookies is what I'm talking about.

Yeah, I'm hungry, man. But they're not in the cookie business. Right? They're. They. What? I really, I'm, I really am impressed that they're, during their evolution that you Know, Chelsea and Trevor and the team that they realized, you know, we're really in the gifting business and. And even above that, you know, we're in the relationship business of connecting people. That's.

They get customer service. Right. Like, just like we were talking about at the beginning, like, they understand they're in the customer service business because every business in the customer service business.

So, yeah, yeah, the cookie is a vehicle. It is, you know, out there, but they could just as well be selling, you know, you know, homemade chocolate or something else.

But cookies are good vehicles. So. Man, yeah. I'm not going to lie to you here. Yeah, I liked her. I liked her comment about her parents being business. Business owners. You know, it's 1, 2. World domination. Like that is like. Like you were saying earlier, right? Like, it. There's less risk than you think. And once you've learned that, and sometimes the most of the time, the only way to learn it is to have done it already and be like, oh, yeah, why was I holding back? Like this. Yeah, yeah. Like, try.

Yeah, yeah. I love, you know, the typical entrepreneurs. Like, you could make a business out of that. You know, you're always thinking of these kinds of opportunities because you've done it. You've had some success at whatever level, and you're encouraging every. Everyone else around you. And I think it's just a great story. And she sounds really excited about it, which brings a great energy to everyone else out there. And I know that it's true.

She is more valuable to this company than she probably realizes just because of, like you said, her energy. Her natural default state is to be out there doing this. Right. Talking about the company. Yeah, no, it's good. It's good. I also like the. You know how her. Well, her husband's family needed to recalibrate their perception of a good cookie because they were used to it. Right. Like, the product was. Was so ingrained in their lives, they didn't realize they even had something that was marketable. Look, let alone wanting to do it. Like, the two are very separate. But somebody else came in and was like, whoa, wait, wait a minute. You should make a business out of this. And listening to those people, it's that kind of thing. Where I was saying before, you don't always want to take every bit of advice or suggestion or anything like that, but you want to let them all in because occasionally there will be one that resonates with you, and then you run with it. And. And I look at those as. And this is just me, you know, focusing on me. When somebody sends in an idea that resonates with me, I say, oh, wait, that was my idea. They just crystallized it before I did. But there's some truth to that, right? Like, when it resonates, it means that you were thinking about it, but perhaps not in the right way. And now you get to go. So, yeah, it's good.

Really good. Great stuff. We hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please, you know, jump on whatever podcast, directory or app you're using and leave us a review to share your honest feedback so we can get more people to benefit and we can bring the charmed life of small business owners to even more of you out there.

Absolutely. That's. That's what we have for today. Thanks for joining us and sticking with us through episode number 300. And feel free. If you haven't been here for all 300, go back and look at the ones that resonate with you and listen to the ideas of yours that other people have already had and then take them and turn them into actions for your small business. And that's. That's how we do it. Have a good one, have fun, be careful, stay safe. Keep living that charm life.