Dave and Shannon Interview Each Other – Small Business Show 54

Small business show episode 54 for February 17, 2016. Greetings, folks, and welcome to the Small Business show at businessshow. Co here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you, sir?

I'm well, I'm well, I think in the intro I'm gonna start adding what it is we do here because I think that's important. Right. You know, we talk about the needs of the things of interest, too. And now I gotta come up with the soundbite for it because I'm gonna say it, you know, and I need to say it quickly. But something that talks, that speaks to so that people that are listening for the first time can hear. This is what these guys do. So what we do is talk about things of interest to small business owners, lifestyle business owners. Right. People that are running a business for profit, not running a business for the exit.

Yeah, that, that, that's a good way. You know, someone who has, you know, a lot of skin in the game and they're either just getting going or they've got years involved in it. And the typical, you know, small business that, you know, the. Our whole economy really leans on these small, unsung heroes that go to work every day and slog it out and hopefully experience some very, very high highs. But certainly they're going to experience a lot of middle ground and certainly some lows that we hope to help them in all those areas. Yeah, absolutely. We'll have to.

Five seconds is what we need to compress that into there, Shannon.

There you go. I'll work on that. It's tough.

I know.

That's good. So, hey, you know, we're coming up on an anniversary of sorts.

Yes, we are, in fact. Yeah. Today is the 17th of February, and it was the 19th of February, one year ago that we released our first episode. As most podcasters do. We had recorded a few episodes ahead of time just to get a feel for how it was. This might work for us. And. But the first one that we released was a year ago. That was Episode. I think we called that episode four.

I think so, too.

Yeah, I don't think. But don't worry, folks, you'll never see episodes 1, 2, or 3. You're not missing anything. And I mean that in every sense of the phrase.

So it'll be the Small Business show, the Hidden Episodes.

That's right.

Ten years from now, and pull them out and, you know, that'd be nice. Yeah. But, you know, so in kind of celebrating our. Our one year you know, actually you had this great idea that, you know, we always ask so many questions of folks that come on for interviews. We have some awesome people coming on in the next five or six weeks, some great interview subjects, and we kind of have this formula of the type of questions that we ask, and we keep adjusting it a little bit. But Dave, you had the idea that, hey, why don't we ask ourselves those questions? At least some of the things that we haven't talked about here. And I think it's a great idea. And let's. So let's start with, with you. I'll fire off some questions and we'll let everybody learn a little bit about your. Your experience.

Sure. And then we'll turn the tables and we'll do it the other way. And that'll be how we cap off our one year in podcasting business together.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I think that's great. So we always ask, you know, one of the things that I'm always very interested in is the transition. If there was one of. And usually there is from employee to employer, from, you know, somebody's going to work getting a paycheck to someone that's building a business that will eventually employ others or maybe they'll be self employed. But, you know, that. What, when that shift happened, you know, did you start working for someone else? Talk about the transition and how that went? Or did it happen all at once or over time?

It's. It's an interesting question. Since I was a kid, or when I was a kid, I should say, because things have changed since then. But when I was a kid, I knew that I wanted to be a computer consultant. I mean, this was like, at like 13 or 14 years old. I knew that's what I wanted to do. And I don't know how I even came up with. I mean, that was the term I had in my head. And I don't know how I came up with that because I don't really think it existed at the time.

Yeah, that's right.

There was one guy that I knew that fixed computers and he worked at our local Apple dealer, you know, and I. But I was just amazed. It was like, whoa, this guy's actually helping other people. This is cool. So that was sort of an inspiration for me. But I certainly had other jobs working for other people. My first job that was sort of a real job was working at a pharmacy and, you know, that sort of thing. But then. And I, but I started doing some mild consulting here and there. These little things would Come up, people would need help with their computer and they'd either pay me or, you know, do things. But, but then I needed real money and I wound up working for Citibank for quite a while. I actually got the gig through a temp agency, believe it or not. I was home from school, from college at one point and I had, but I had like previous summers I had done lawn mowing and things like that, you know, so. Which is definitely, you know, running your own business. But sure. But I needed, you know, steadier money and year round money because in the northeast here you can't mow lawns this time of year. It doesn't pay a whole lot. It doesn't pay very well. So I got this gig at Citibank and really I was, I was brought in as sort of a glorified executive assistant, if you will. But it was because I knew how to do PageMaker and you know, freehand and all of that stuff that was just magic to people back then. You know, they needed all of this stuff done and, and, and no one knew how to do it. And so I came in and was like, I get to play with a computer all day and do this stuff. And they were absolutely amazed, you know, the presentations that they were doing. And that went from being a temp thing and it was a long term temp job anyway and it eventually became a full time job but it grew. I mean, they sort of created a full time job for me and I helped them with a lot of stuff. And the project that I was working on was their home banking project which was a, it was a dial up system with a, it was a special phone that you got. It was a screen telephone that had a little screen in it. IBM PC XT was inside it and a little pull out keyboard and it had a smart card in it. So this was, you know, early 90s. And finally now we're getting smart cards in our wallets, you know.

That's awesome.

Yep. But that was, that was my job and it was, you know, doing all kinds of things in this department. And then I decided I really wanted to do more of this consulting thing. So I, but I didn't want to give up my income because, you know, making good money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I talked to my boss about this and he said, well, you need some leverage over us. And I said okay. He said, so you need to go get an offer for another job. And I said okay. And so like the people there conspired. One of the guys, his wife worked at a different company that needed like a database administrator, which was something I had the skill set to do. It would have been a stretch for me, but, you know, it would have been a good stretch. And I went and interviewed for it and they offered me, you know, like 30% more than I was getting at Citibank and they would have hired me. They didn't know that they were being used as a pawn in this whole thing. And, and I actually considered going to work for this company. It would have been a good thing and all of that. And so I went back and I said, okay, here's the deal. This other company wants me, you know, and they're going to pay me more. I don't want more from you. I want the same amount of money from you, but I only want to work three days a week. And, and you know, it sort of had to go through channels and, and then it freed that up and they, they did it. But it meant shifting from being a full time employee to being a contractor because Citibank couldn't have, it just wouldn't have worked. I don't know. At the time, it was the simplest thing for them was that. And so that opened me up to being a, you know, a consultant with a, with a, with a, with a safety net. And, and it worked out.

Yeah. Your launch pad.

It was my launch pad.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And so I did, I did that for about a year. And there were some interesting things, I mentioned them on the show where they needed other consultants to do stuff. And the contract that we had to put together was a bear for them to get kind of through the process and all the red tape at Citibank. So when they brought other consultants in to our division, they made me hire them. The finance guy sat me down one day. He's like, we're never doing this contract thing again. It was a big pain. We don't regret doing it with you, but now that we have it with you, we need to hire these two other people for like these three or four month terms. You're going to hire them, we're going to pay you the rate that you're going to, that we're going to tell you to pay them plus 10 bucks an hour for your trouble. Like, oh, yeah, it's no trouble. They're like, yeah, shut up. It's, yeah, take the 10 bucks. Yeah, so. So there was that going on. And I did that for about a year, maybe a year and a half, and then wound up moving to Texas, which is a whole other story. But Lisa and I sort of decided to pull up stakes and just go. And after that, I really never worked for anybody else again. I mean, I had business partners and all kinds of other things going on, but once we moved to Texas, I was sort of out on my own and I didn't have this corporate job to fall back upon, so.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's a great story. So, you know, I'm glad I'll add.

One thing because we're going to step all over each other with this episode. I, I'm glad that move to Texas happened because if it didn't, I don't know that I ever would have had like the need or even just the catalyst to give up that corporate thing, if that makes sense, you know. Yeah, I mean, it was my choice to move to Texas. I mean, certainly nothing brought me there. A job didn't bring me there. But that, you know, that process made it easy to say, well, I have to say goodbye to that, you know.

Well, I think that it's important to recognize because that safety net, you know, is also, can be, can be like a leash, right?

Exactly.

And it's, it's a fine line between, you know, I, I guarantee you there are a ton of folks out there that want and view this concept of starting their own business and controlling their own destiny with yearning. But they have this, this double edged, you know, the safety net and this leash that holds them back, you know, but pays the bills. And so you're, that's, That' really good thing, I think, to recognize is that cut off when you left, you know, to be the catalyst, like, okay, I have to make some money now.

Yeah, well, I didn't. I'd saved up enough that we could live for a year without earning a dime. Yeah. But still, I mean that, you know, I knew that that year would go quickly. Clock ticks. Yep.

Yeah, so that, that's cool. You know, and one of the things that we always talk about often are lifestyle businesses and how, you know, having flexibility but not freedom and those kinds of things on the show. And, you know, we always say cash is king and you measure that as part of your success. But it's, it's, it's a bigger, there's a bigger picture here. You know, what's the yardstick that you really, you know, have come up with that you use to know this was a good year. This is, we're, we're successful now, even if it's not just on the P and L. Yeah.

I mean, there's the P And l. But for me, success is I didn't have to go and get a corporate job again because I value that flexibility. And we've used the term and joked about it being patently unemployable.

That's right.

At this point, I think that's the thing that scares me the most. I know I can always make money. I know that I could convince an employer that I'm the right person for the job. Right. And. And I could do the job, but it would eat at me.

Yeah.

You know, really? It would. Yeah. And I don't say that to. To be dismissive of people that. That work for other people. It's just. Oh, sure, it's just me, you know, and. And I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. You know, none of this stuff is a surprise to you folks.

I'm not like that at all.

Right. But that. But that's the thing, that if I have to look at one thing that drives me, it's that it's like, okay, you know, if you don't make all this happen, that's your alternative. I mean, there's a lot of things in between where I am today and that. But, I mean, listen, you know, I got bills to pay, and I'm not independently wealthy, so, you know, I could survive for a little while if things went south, but not forever, you know, so it's. I know that that's a possibility out there. And. And so a year, not only a year where I got through not having to do that, because it's. It's not a daily thing that I worry about this, but a year where I'm pretty convinced that I'm also not going to have to do that next year is. That's a good year. A good year? I think so. Yeah.

I like it. That's great. So. And this is one that always kind of makes folks that come on the show a little uncomfortable, but, you know, what would you consider the best. The best mistake you've ever made? What really taught you? I mean, we're big fans of mistakes here, you know. What mistake did you make that you think you learned the most from?

Man, I've made so many. What did I learn the most from taking my eye off the ball, I guess, is if I had to think of. Of. Of one, you know, when my kids got to the point where the business got relatively successful, at least compared to where it was when it started, you know, it was. It was paying for not only my living, but the living of, you know, several employees, and then my Kids started getting into like soccer and you know, all that other stuff. And it was like, you know what? I've earned this. I can sort of let the business go on autopilot. And, and I did that for a couple of years. And I mean, things are fine. You know, it didn't crater the business, but we missed some growth opportunities. And, and so, you know, I think just that if there's one thing. Yeah. And probably there was, there was somebody that wanted to buy one of the businesses. Not, not the one you and I are, that not the deals on the web business. But I had somebody else interested in buying Backbeat Media at one point. And if I ever wanted to sell it, going back in time, that was the time because we'd had this epic growth. We doubled the business several years in a row. Actually more than doubled the business several years in a row. And it was just a perfect trajectory and time to just say, yep, here you go, this is yours. You can do with it what you want.

That's cool. So would you say that are those similar things like you would give yourself advice to start? You know, we always say, hey, what would you tell yourself now with the experience that you have, what would you tell yourself when you, when you were.

Just getting started, don't wait to make decisions, you know, and it goes, it goes to that. We had that discussion. I can't remember who it was that said we're, you know, we're all afraid or don't make fear based decisions.

That was Brian Fris.

Brian Fris. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was more than fear based decisions. It's not making decisions out of fear.

Ah, yes.

You know, and it's, you know, fear is one thing, but complacency is its, its partner. Right. You know, you get to a point where you're like, well, this is working. I, you know, now I have this momentum going. When you start, it's easy to make decisions because you have to do something, otherwise you haven't started. But once things are going, it's very easy to say, don't rock the boat. This is all good, you know. Sure. And I still tell myself that all the time. It's like whatever decision I made, I should have made it a week ago. Unless I just make it right away because I trust my gut. And in the end, I pretty much always know what decision I was going to say, I pretty much always know the right decision that's wrong, but I pretty much know which decision it is that I will make.

Sure.

Right out of the gate. Yeah, yeah. So I should just do it.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's good. Well, that's. It's. It's interesting and, you know, a lot of parallels, and I'm sure there's thousands of, you know, they're folks running neural businesses that have had similar experiences like that. So it's a. Yeah, it's a great story. Yeah, it's good stuff.

Yeah. Are we. Are we finished with me?

Unless you'd like to add anything else. I think that. No, I think it's good.

I think we're good. All right.

I like.

So, yeah, thanks. No, this is. It's. It's good. Like I said, I don't think. We've never done this. We've talked about, you know, a lot of these things aren't going to come as surprises, but.

But it's great.

Yeah.

Got it.

All right, man, it's your turn. So. So how did you get started? Right, You. I mean, you're in business for yourself. You've talked to us about how you've kind of always been in business for yourself, but did you ever work for someone else and how did that transition happen if you did?

Yeah, sure, I did work for other people. And, you know, when I was in high school, I mean, I. Similar kind of thing, hustling, trying to make money, you know, and my first job was in fast food working at Wendy's. And I can remember crumpling up my birth certificate a little bit, so you couldn't quite see my birth date because I was a year shy or early.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And I. And I always think about that. I was like, man, I was, you know, I needed money and was ready to go to work. And it's. So it was. It was a great experience. Everybody should work in the food industry at least once, so they can either figure out that, well, this is for me, or figure out, oh, man, I'm never doing this again, you know?

Yeah, well, it's. Any sort of, you know, customer service. Yeah, yeah, Customer service job like that, you know, I had my pharmacy experience. Same kind of thing.

Sure.

Yep.

Yeah. Greece is a big factor in the fast food industry.

Yeah.

So, you know, and then when I went to.

To.

To college, you know, I was working and doing some stuff and I got really. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I got interested in. In plants and being outdoors and again, but it was customer service. I was teaching classes at a local plant nursery, and I was in high school, and it's like, wow, you know, people actually Pay attention to me. It's kind of fun. And then when I went away to school and was at college where nobody had any money, and again, I like, oh, I got to go get a job. And I worked for the city attorney's office. He owned some properties, and I was taking care of those. And then I started, you know, was doing landscape stuff and met some folks, and we did some. Some displays and competition at Cal Poly and met some local people and said, hey, you know, we'd love to have you come do some stuff for us. And that kind of grew, and I would. I was always shocked and amazed how I could go in the living room and walk out with a big check. And I was just really just a kid that I didn't know anything. And, you know, you'd walk out with these 25, $30,000 checks to do this landscape. And I was, oh, well, this could have. This. This is interesting. So started. Started hiring all my buddies, and they were, you know, trying to find. It was the first time that I. I figured out I have to find people that know more about this stuff than I do. You know, you got to find a guy that can do concrete. You have to find a guy that can do this, do that, or whoever, a designer. And it worked out great, and we had a great time. And I did it all through school and. And not until I was ready to get out of college that I real. I realized, wow, you know, I don't think I want to do this anymore. And so, like, probably pretty common. And luckily, I bought my first Mac and realized I could use the skills that I'd picked up over time to launch another kind of business. And luckily, my. My future wife at the time had gotten a good job so we could have some health care and make a little bit of money and just, you know, survive, basically. And launched my first business with my partner buddy of mine from college. And it's been that way ever since.

Ever since. Yeah.

Yeah. The transition, you know, it was. It really wasn't that hard because I always felt like I've known how to make money. But it wasn't until I was much older that I realized I didn't know a damn thing about building wealth.

I remember when you had that realization and came to me about it. You're like, we got to figure out, you know, money's easy. Easy. And it's true. You know, there's always a way.

Yeah.

But it's maintaining and keeping some of that money. Yeah.

Is the key. Yeah. It's a challenge. So you Know, again, and I think as I've gotten, you know, a little more experience, we've figured that out a bit and it's, it's been great, you know, I love it.

That's good, man.

So, blanks.

So you've obviously, you know, you made the transition. You been a serial and parallel entrepreneur. Yeah, Yep. For many years. Any, any favorite story or, or two that, that come to mind?

Sure, yeah. I think that one of the things when I was in the landscape construction business, we, we were pivoting back then because what I was doing is I was renting lots of equipment, tractors and trucks and that kind of thing. And I, of course, being the kind of person I am, I say, gosh, you know, this is a lot of money for this rental. And I happened to go to an auction and see what this stuff was selling for this kind of used equipment, and I realized I could buy it for not much more than the rental cost, and I could use it and then sell it. And I figured out that this was before the Internet, so. Or well before the Web anyway. And you could ship these products to different parts of the country and take advantage of those to kind of local markets. So if you bought a, a crane, appear in the Bay Area for a project to plant monster trees, you could use it and then ship it down to Southern California where their construction was booming, and you could make some money. In addition, you got to use it. And the story I have, how I kind of got out of that business, it was between landscaping and the computer stuff, was getting the phone call at three in the morning with a truck driver pulled over on the side of the road somewhere in Missouri transporting a 40 ton crane. And of course, he had no documentation that, you know, I think I was 23 years old or something. And so, you know, this guy's calling me going, hey, you know, you're supposed to have all this paperwork. And I was like, what are you talking about? And so it was a quick lesson for me on how to problem solve, but also another one like, well, maybe I shouldn't be in this business. This stuff's pretty big. And so it pushed me into the computer business because I could kind of do the same thing, but I could carry it in, you know, my car or a truck.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Remember that?

Yeah, yeah. There's. I've heard similar stories from people where it's like, you realize, oh, there's all this other stuff I got to worry about. This isn't. I like the business the way it is. Not the way they make me do it. Yeah.

Yes, that's right.

Well, and. And thankfully. And perhaps not thankfully, but. But it's interesting to note that the business that you're in doesn't really have any restrictions like that. Maybe you do, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you have to kind of learn as you go, and you make mistakes and, oh, I can't. I can't do that. And I have been known to push the envelope a bit, and I think, you know, that's a good thing in most cases. Sometimes it can kind of bite you, you know, turn around later and bite you. But for the most part, it's been all right.

It worked out all right. So you asked me this, and I'm going to ask you, what is your metric for success? What is it that makes you say, awesome, we did good, or we're doing good now?

Yeah, I have a couple of them. 1. When I don't have to worry about the cash at my businesses, then it tells me things are working okay. We may not be one business or another, may not be just killing it, but if I'm not having to be, you know, if payroll isn't on my radar, or if I don't have to have cash meetings, you know, weekly, I kind of get a sense of, okay, things are going good, I run. You know, like you said, your gut instinct, you know, I'm like that big time. But also, for me, it's all about the flexibility. Can I be here at my house on Wednesday afternoons to record this podcast? And will I not be missed? To me, that is the biggest sign of success, is they don't need me there.

Right.

And it took me a long time to realize that's what I wanted. But, you know, I try to hire people that are much smarter than me and people that can, man, they don't need me in their portion of the business. So for me, it's flexibility. Yes, we all want to make a good living, but that time that you can get and the flexibility, it is really priceless.

It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's. It's an important thing, you know?

Yes.

And I value that, too. And I know my answer to the next question was sort of counter to that, but. But there is a value there. You just have to. All in moderation.

Yeah, that's right.

All right, so the next question. What's the best mistake you've ever made? Our favorite question to ask.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So the. The mistake that I. The best mistake I ever made, that taught me the most. There really are no shortcuts. And when I was getting started in business and I was presented with some opportunities that, looking back now and again, like I said, I push the envelope a bit and I take a lot of risks. But back then, I try to take calculated risks now. And I took a couple of risks that were not calculated. And the repercussions were very negative for me. And I've talked about it on the show. It cost me a million bucks and made some decisions and did some things that just kind of came around to bite me. And they. They weren't anything horrific, but it was something like, oh, you know, yeah, sure, I could see that that's. That's not their way to do things. And, you know, stood. I. Look, I decided back then, hey, the. What it taught me is two things. One, you're going to be accountable and not just bow out and say, well, this is the mistake I made, so now I got to go work for somebody else. And two is to. Is, again, there is no shortcut. You just have to put in the time and focus on your what. What your view of how the things are going to be. And if you do it every single day, you're going to either realize that, hey, this is working, or you're going to shift and pivot in that doing it every single day is going to work, but it may be something else that you're not thinking of yet. Yeah, and it works. It's just that day in and day out, that's what makes you successful. Not this super great idea that instantly is going to make a ton of money. It's just. It's just going to take time.

Yeah. Super great ideas never instantly make people money. Seriously. You know, it's all about execution. That's right. It really, really is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. So if you could go back to when. Actually, you know what? I'm going to hold that question because I have a new question I want to add to our repertoire here, and it's one that we don't need to prepare people for, because everyone knows the answer. What time do you get up every day? And do you get up at the same time every day?

So I get up. I'm a night person, not a morning person, but I get up early because I have to get, you know, things have to happen. My kids, so, you know, I get up at 6:30, but if I had my druthers, I probably would get up a couple hours later than that because I work late at night all the time. And that kind of thing. But I am not a believer that the early bird gets a worm. I don't think it matters what time you. Well, it matters to your business, depending upon what time you need to be there. But in general, if you are someone that has a different rhythm, like I know I do and I especially the first, you know, 30 or so years of my life, always been more productive late at night.

Yep.

And I would much rather get started later and, and then work later in the, in the evening.

Yeah. And do you get up at the same time every day, like even on weekends and things like that, or do you sleep in?

Oh, hell no. No way. No way. I would much rather sleep in and, and wake up at my leisure, maybe grab my book or grab, you know, my iPad and, and catch up and then get out of bed. You know, that's probably. You could ask me that. A sign of success is another thing is being able to get out of bed when you want is powerful. You know, I follow a guy, Mr. Money Mustache is on the web and I love him and he's always talking about when Monday morning comes around. It's no different for me than Sunday morning and I get up and then I work, you know, and he may work 12 hours, but he may get up at 10 o', clock, you know, so.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a good question though.

Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with you. You know, if you can just wake up when you. That's key. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always said, and we're all different and we are. No, yeah. I don't, I, I don't. I ask this question only out of curiosity, not in a judgmental way. And you know, but, but I, I have a feeling we'll learn some things from, from.

Yeah. How about you? Well, let me ask you that. What, what, what time do you get up every day?

Yeah. Like you. I'm a night owl, which, you know, I, I lately, like just, just the past couple of weeks, something's been going on with me. I, I don't know if I've got something weird like my knees have been hurting or whatever, but I've been sleeping more than I typically do. But I, I don't get up at the same time every day. My kids get up at like 6ish. If I'm gonna get up with them, I get up at 6:30.

Yeah.

But I don't always. My wife is often up with them. She's always up with them. I'm not gonna lie about this. She's always up with them so I don't have to be. I mean my kids are 14 and 16 now. You know, it's different. They could easily get themselves off to school and you know, my daughter drives and all that stuff. Yeah. So if I, if I wake up with the kids, those I, my days are. My mornings are super productive because, you know, I wake up at like 6:30 or whatever and I get right out of bed. If I'm gonna, if I'm gonna wake up at 6:30, it's so I can see the, they head off to school and then they're done at seven, you know, they're off and I'll go straight to the office at that point because I've had, you know, something to eat and I'm ready to roll. And I get a ton of work done in that, you know, 7 to 9:30 range. And after that it's all bets are off. You know, people are engaging me and all kinds of stuff. So that's my most productive routine is that I get more done outside of the nine to five hours. I get lots done from like midnight to three and I'll also get lots done from seven to 9:30. But you know, that nine to five it's tough for me to get truly focused time. Lately I've been waking up at about 8 and I'll stay in bed, but I instantly start working. I pull out my iPad, I start reading feeds. And part of that is just to catch up with things. But part of it's for Mac Observer. If I find something, I put it in. We have a Slack channel that we put all our are leads into things that somebody should write a story about or somebody should be aware of and that kind of thing. And so that.

Nice.

That kind of starts my day. And that's actually my preferred way to get up is that to just sort of, you know, slowly ease into the day that way and then I get up and all of that. But if I have like a project I need to do, the best thing is either to start work on it at midnight or start at work at 7:00am that's great.

Yeah. We got to talk about Slack in a future episode.

Yes.

And how we're using it and how awesome it is and stuff like that.

But yeah, I agree.

We'll save it.

Okay.

But I, I've certainly enjoyed hearing, you know, your story. Hopefully everybody else has as well. And I, I think it's been, it's been a great year of episodes. I'm looking forward. We're on the brink of doing a lot of really cool stuff. We're working on this book that we probably will talk about in the next episode.

Yeah.

And it's a. You know, it's a great new adventure.

Yeah. Thanks for telling your story. And happy anniversary, man. This is, you know, it's. It's. It's been an. It's been an interesting year. I'm. I'm glad that we're doing it. Yeah.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome.

It's good stuff. All right, folks, FeedbackUsinessShow Co is where you can always email us. And then, of course, you can find us on the web at BusinessShow Co and on Facebook. And we gotta fix. We gotta.

We have to do that. Change that. That page.

Yeah.

Come up with a new one.

That's right.

For sure.

All right, folks, have a good one. And we will. We will see you next week.

Take care.