Fighting Customer Fraud and Leveraging Relationships

The Small business show episode 311 for Wednesday, January 20, 2021. Greetings folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co and Small Businessing in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.

Yes. And you know I'm here for the small business therapy session. I am Shannon Jean, coming to you from Lafayette, California.

Well, lay down on the couch my friend. Let's do it. Yeah, I, I don't mean to make light of therapy. I.

Sorry, no, no.

I think it's actually really hard for me at times.

Yeah, yeah, of course. And. But I definitely am in need of some small business therapy today. And we've had a few of these shows in the past and we're going to try to do a few more of them because it's really important for my mental well being. Yeah.

And it's business well being. So it's.

It is, yeah, absolutely. And your mindset is what I find is in something happens and if I once I talk it through and get some outside kind of feedback and maybe a different outlook on it, I can kind of let it go a little bit and get on with the more positive.

I have two things to say here before we, before we get started. The, the first is I have no idea what you're about to share with me and so I hope that I can help. But maybe really just being here, listening and letting you talk is all that needs to happen. Maybe I'm more leaning towards that. The second thing I want to say is that our sponsor for today is Remote HQ co SBS and we will talk more about why you definitely want to go check them out in, in a little bit. But, but Shannon, by all means, my friend, let's, let's go.

Yeah, let's get right into it before my head explodes. So I, I have a business selling high end handbags. I've talked about it on the show here before.

Right.

I do a lot a significant amount of business on ebay and other marketplaces and I had just, you know, in the grand scheme of things this is a small issue. But from a. I take, I can't help it but I take everything in my business personally. It's just a way I'm wired and I had a buyer that bought a handbag that was over a thousand dollars significantly and great, no problem. Shipped it out and it went, unbeknownst to me, it went to a freight forwarder.

Yeah. Okay.

Don't know what that is. That is an address in the United States that of a business that receives products for People outside the US and then they package it, put another label on it, ship it out.

And that typically makes life easier for you, the seller, slash, shipper, because you don't have to figure out how to get it out of the country. Somebody else.

Yeah, but what. Yeah, it also can introduce a number of complications because I do ship internationally, but they're specific countries I do not ship to because of problems either with their delivery service or different things like that. So this went to, I don't know where eventually, where it wound up, had a buyer. This buyer asked me a bunch of questions. No problem. Communicated real easy about this bag. I was happy to sell it. Profit was good. And on December 24, I got a notice saying that, oh, I found from this person. And they no longer could communicate with me in, in English, which I thought was kind of a weird, not a good sign. And they. So I just translated their messages on ebay and it said, hey, I found out this bag is not real. And so I am going to file a complaint. And I, you know, I'm too worried about sending it back. That, that's a very strange message. And I said, hey, you know, I responded quickly and said, well, you know, I only sell authentic bags that has been authenticated, but no problem, I'll take it back. I'll send you a prepaid label so you don't have to pay any shipping. All you have to do is go into your purchase history and say you want to return it.

Right.

And this. The customer then ghosted me and never spoke to me again. They then proceeded to do a chargeback on their credit card. And I got an alert from ebay the next day that said, oh, yeah, hey, this customer did a chargeback saying, this, this item isn't authentic. I go back, I went back to ebay and said, hey, I don't let. Let's sideline that issue. I'll. I will get it further authenticated to be sure there's no problem, because I know there's not. And I said, but the customer just needs to return the bag to get their money back. It's simple. I'll pay for the shipping. I don't care where it is. I'll pay for it to get it back. It's expensive product. Sure, no problem. Okay. I tried a different. Few different ways to contact the customer. Nothing happened. Ebay sent me a message about a week or so later. Hey, we need some more information about the authenticity of this product. I, I responded and said, I can't tell you anything until I get it Back. I need to get it back. Called them and called ebay, said, look, this person, I think it's a scam. They're trying to get their money back without returning the product. Otherwise why would they not return the product? Ebay agreed. When I talked to the rep, they said, yeah, we're going to talk to the credit card company and let them know. And then just this morning I got a, just a really generic message from ebay. It says the case has been decided in the buyer's favor, but not only is the buyer not going to return the product, we're charging you an extra 20 dispute fee and we're taking the money out of your account for the, for the product. Oh, and okay, yes.

I was gonna, I was gonna say I'm, I'm this, I think this is the right time for me to let you breathe and talk for a second about our sponsor.

That's a great idea.

Does that work for you? Okay, yeah, because I really, I've been.

I'll take a deep breath.

You just take a deep breath. And, and I got this. I got you. Because I'm really excited about what Remote HQ is doing and can do for your business and our business. Because with Remote HQ and you want to go to RemoteHQ Co SBS, they've created this fantastic system and it's an online service, but it is truly a system where you have your workspace. Right? But it's all in a web browser and you can have different rooms and different sessions and different tiles that they call them to have participants and apps in your session. And what it does is it recreates the office inside of this remote session so everybody is able to collaborate all together no matter where you are. So their slogan is helping teams get more done together in less time. Super high security, collaborative workspace that lets all your remote teams or all the people on your remote team work together in ways that just aren't possible with other tools. Right. And the way that they've pulled this all together is spectacular. There's no software to download, it's all browser based. And so not only do you not have to worry about whether people have the right software, they've got a web browser, they've got it, but there's no malicious actions that can happen. Workspaces get tracked all the way through so that you've got a searchable digital trail and you can customize your company's workspace says for whatever use case you want. Think about this. Imagine being in a meeting and having website co browsing and CO control, right. All members of the meeting can interact and make changes on the screen seamlessly. Take control when you need to, and then sit back when your teammates are contributing. And it turns any website instantly collaborative. So multiple people can click, scroll and type away. You can easily save page layouts and save your workspace across recurring meetings. So by just toggling a switch, you can automatically carry over your content from one meeting to the next. So you can just pick up right where you left off. It's so smooth, what they've created there, and you gotta check it out. So head to RemoteHQ Co SBS for a free trial. And then when you're ready to launch, use code SBS for three months free. This is amazing. So go check it out. RemoteHQ Co SBS. And our thanks to Remote HQ for creating what they've created, for doing what they're doing, and for sponsoring this episode. All right, Shannon, now what do you got, man?

Yeah, so to make a long story short, the frustration in this with me is that where I clearly felt that from the beginning this was kind of a fraudulent transaction. My voice was really not heard at ebay, which really frustrated me. And so maybe the therapy is, is me just talking to you because I don't know, there's a solution that you can offer me, maybe some insight. But I, but I do want to.

Well, let me ask you this. Let me, Let me, let's. Let me dig in and please kind of do what I do, because I always, I, I like to, to diffuse things. Right? You know, this is. This has happened. Okay. You might be able to, you know, fight a little more with ebay. It may or may not be worth it for you to even consider doing that. But this has happened. So my question would be, was there anything, as you look back at this, you know, take a step away, Is there anything about this from early on in the process that gave you, like, did it seem like maybe it happened too easily? Did it happen too quickly? Was there a too good to be true aspect about this that you didn't necessarily recognize at the time, but that, you know, we love to learn from mistakes here. Right. That's one of our things. And so was there, Is there something where you can say, okay, well, next time when I see this pattern, I know to ask a different question or, you know, dig in a little bit more? Was there anything like that, any mistake we can learn from?

Yeah, I would say the mistake is or, or the opportunity to avoid this type of thing in the future is I, I sell on a number of platforms with this product line. And some of these platforms or marketplaces do their own authentication prior to the products being delivered to the customer, which is a terrific, terrific service. And that's how you avoid this. Right. There is no, there's a stopgap. I have often thought of limiting my exposure on ebay because they, they do offer an authentication system, but it's, it's, and it's, it's really new and it's very expensive and I'm not a huge fan of the way they do it. I could have avoided it that way. And, you know, yeah, I'm always looking for, okay, hey, I can make that sale. And it's a risk reward in the grand scheme of things. In the last. I just ran a report this morning. You know, I sell about a quarter of a million dollars on ebay year.

Okay.

This is the second fraud I've had in, in that time period. The first one, I got my refunded because the customer sent back an empty box. I just had to instruct ebay how to read the data that showed the box weighed, you know, 8 or 9 ounces when it came back, versus 3 pounds when I shipped it. Once I explained it to them, I got it, no problem, you know, because I've been scammed before in business over many years. So now here's, here's the moral and what I want to, what I really want to tell you, our listeners, is that I'm going to get this resolved and I'm getting it resolved in my favor. But I, I am doing it in a roundabout way that really. And I can't stress enough the power of LinkedIn.

Interesting. Really?

Yeah. And I always talk about this to people and they kind of look at me like, whatever, yeah, that's okay. But, you know, we love LinkedIn. They've been sponsors on the show several times and there it's overlooked so often. So I spend significant amount of time connecting with people on LinkedIn that are in my business vertical.

Yes.

In our channel. And.

Okay, now, now I see where you're going with this. Okay.

Whether it's poshmark ebay, whether I'm buying from suppliers. When I was in the tech business, I connected with all kinds of suppliers in China and different things where there's people at Apple, all kinds of stuff. So I have built up a war chest, if you will.

Yep.

Of strong connections at ebay, either people that I've met in person, but immediately when I got back to my office, connected with them on LinkedIn so I could keep that connection, that string going. Because if you just say, hello, I'm this guy, they're going to forget who you are. But you make these connections. And then the second part of it is you cannot ask them for anything. You have to keep a relationship. You have to comment on their posts. You have to wish them, hey, thanks for a great. Another great year on ebay. I love this new policy. You message them saying, hey, one thing I'm. You might want to try with this new managed payment system would be this. So you're adding value to the relationship and you're, you're keeping your name. And one of the people that I happen to know is very. Or, and I'm connected with is very high up in the ebay customer service channel. So I reached out to him this morning, just like I did with my previous fraud issue, and I just said, hey, I want to point out this, this situation, what happened, and so I can learn from it, so I can be sure it won't happen again. But also, maybe ebay can learn from it. And, and I told him, I said, I'm not asking you to step in and give me my money back. I just all I want to learn from it.

Yeah, but you know that by. If, if they, if you get them to take a look at it, which you are. So. Yeah, cultivate.

That's what I'm doing is I'm shining a light.

You're shining, you're. You're asking them to shine their light on it, right? Yeah.

And. Which is way more powerful.

Which is way more powerful. But you're not doing it for. From the. Can you please help me? You're doing it being the same guy you've always been adding value to the relationship. This time there is leverage in your value. Right. Because you've already proven that you are here to add value. But there's also a personal agenda. I mean, you have an axe to grind here.

Of course. Of course I do.

And they know that. But they're going to look at it because they trust you.

And that's. And I have history with them. I'm not, I'm not going to them only when I want help. Yeah, that, that's to take. You know, I'm involved in their feed, whether it's liking a post commenting, whether it's congratulating them when something happens on ebay, whether it's talking about, I mean, my message history. I probably sent 10 messages to this person over the last, I don't know, last year. Nothing related to anything. I wanted just to Be like, hey, this is so great. I'm glad to see this happening. Congratulations. And then they would respond to me, of course, that kind of stuff. And so it was great. And just as we were on the show, I, I just got a response. And this guy says, man, thank you. This is his first tanks. Thank you for bringing this one to our attention because it is his words. For the record, you sent over a doozy. I had one of my team dig into them and they weren't happy once they went through it all. So, so here they're. I'm already trying. I mean, they're learning from it.

Right, Right.

And, and not to go into the details, but it's basically this. This buyer on ebay is scamming people. And if. And because we were able to take on a roundabout, their customer service kind of standard blanket email, you, you, you hit it, Dave. The power of this person, shine their light on it. And it's, it's a plan B. We talked about plan B's in the show last week. This is a plan B. How would you do it if you just hit the wall with normal customer service? How do you escalate if you don't know anyone?

Yeah.

If you're not connected, if you're not in, you know, the, the feed, if you will, of these executives and employees and customer service people, they don't know who you are.

One of my favorite lessons that I ever learned was. And it's going to sound so obvious when I say it to you that you're going to think you already knew it. And some of you may already have. But one of my favorite lessons is that let's say you have to get like for this problem. Right. Let's, let's, let's make it specific. There's someone in the middle there at ebay that has the authority to remedy this in your favor if they want. Right? Right. Okay, now you need. The trick is your, your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to get your message, your plea to that person. Now, do you want to do that from the bottom up or the top down? So let me ask you a question. Let's put yourself in the shoes of that person in the middle there. Now, those person, that person's probably, if they're but truly in a position to be able to fix problems like this, they're probably fixing problems all day long. And it's kind of a headache for them. I mean, it's their job. Right. It's their job, if you will. And so they're getting emails and requests for things to consider all the time. And they have to prioritize your emergency amongst everyone else's. So let's imagine they're sitting at their desk and they get an email from someone lower than them on the totem pole. And then they get an email from someone higher than them on the totem pole. Which one do you think they're going to get to first? Now, right now let, let's. So that's assuming that the person to whom you send your email, because you don't know this person in the middle, that's assuming the person you send your email is going to forward it to the right person immediately. That, that's a huge assumption because most of the time the people lower down don't want to bother the people above them and they choose which, carefully choose which things they delegate upwards. Because delegating upwards costs you in the corporate infrastructure.

Yeah.

Right now, the person at the top, if they, if they, if they have earned their place up high, it's partially because they've already learned the value of delegating and they are totally fine with it as long as they're delegating down. And so your email gets to that person, they're going to delegate it immediately. They want it off their plate. So not only does it get to the person faster if you can go from the top down, but it gets their attention way better than if you went bottom up. So you did the right thing. And I always, I will go to the president if I, if I don't know someone else up high somewhere, I just write to the office of the president and, you know, hope for the best. And most of the time it does, it gets there.

Most of the time it does.

And I approach it the right way.

Frame it. Yeah, you gotta frame it correctly. And I know, I feel like I framed it correctly and, and because of this sentence here and where my connection responded and said, this is quite a learning experience for my crew as they were working with the payments team and pulling pieces together. And here it is. So, you know, because I know this matters to you, no special treatment here. This is policy. And the way the buyer did this made for a bad situation. So I feel like, great, I am bringing value. Even though I eventually know you're going to help me.

Right.

Everyone's, everyone's going to learn from this. It's just a win, win. And you know, if, wherever you are, if you're not using LinkedIn to broaden your network and, and make those connections, I implore you to start today because you will need them down the road and the time you need them is not when you, when you want to make that first connection. Yeah, it's just like going to the bank when you need money. That's the worst time you. You want to do it so you can sit back and be in control. Add value to the relationship. And that's my business therapy. Today I realized I like it. Probably just made myself feel better by talking and everything. And unfortunately I think I may. I don't know if I've bogarted all the time.

Oh no, it's totally fine. That's how we do it. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, no, I. And I think LinkedIn is a great place to begin and cultivate your relationships. It's not the only way. You know, we used to do this in person. You can do it other ways. But make sure you are investing time every week into cultivating and managing those relationships. Because that's the key to business success is relationships. It really is that 100% is because if someone doesn't have a relationship with you, and I'm choosing my words carefully, it's not whether you think you have a relationship with them. If someone doesn't think they have a relationship with you, it makes you a whole lot easier to ignore. And when you need them, you don't want to be ignored. So. Yeah, I like it. Man, that's good stuff.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And you know, if you have a story about how you've used a connection and added value to a relationship that then ultimately came back to help you, we would love to hear it. Feedbackusinessshow co. Or share it at the Small Business Support support group. You can get there at BusinessShow Co Facebook. Love to hear from you. Love to hear your stories and thanks for listening.

Yeah, thanks so much for listening. Thanks. Make sure you check out RemoteHQ Co SBS. They've got some great stuff going on there. Really, really cool things that they're doing. You can integrate all those apps like. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. They've built a platform and it's. It, it's just so malleable is really what it is. It's hard to talk about, to be perfectly honest. Like I get why they're doing podcast ads cuz you can spend a little more time with it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's great. It's great. You got to check it out again. Remote HQ co sbs. And thanks for listening and keep on living that charmed life, folks. We'll see you next time. Do.