Find Success Working With Your Spouse in your Small Business – Small Business Show Episode 94

The Small Business show episode number 94 for Wednesday, November 23, 2016. Greetings folks and, and welcome to the Small Business show here at businessshow Co. The show by, for and about all of us that create, work and build our small businesses here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Concord, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you, Dave?

I'm well, man. How about you?

It's good. Good. I'm doing really well.

Good.

I am getting ready. You know, holidays are one of my favorite times of the year and get together with a lot of folks and as we, you know, we're recording this one a little early because next week I'll be in New York for Thanksgiving.

I figured you might be coming to New York again this year. Yeah, yeah.

I thought it was. My daughter's going to college out there and Marymount Manhattan. So we thought, well, let's. We often go back there, so we'll go out and. Should be a lot of fun.

That's good. My daughter actually visited that school a week ago, so.

That's awesome.

Yeah. And she was impressed. She really. That's cool. Yeah.

Yeah. So far, so far we've, we've really liked it. So it's going to, it's going to be nice. Yeah.

Cool.

And it should be good.

Cool.

So, hey, speaking of family, you know, I've been wanting to do this show for a while and to talk about working with your spouse, your husband, your wife, your significant other, your. So as all the cool kids say. And so I thought today we would talk about tips and tricks for keeping things steady and enjoyable when you're, when you're doing that.

Yeah, I think I'm on. But 14 years of working with my spouse, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Pretty good.

Yeah.

I'm about to. I think we're about 12 years into it here and I think. So certainly we can fill up a show with, with, with comments. Yeah, you know, for, for me, you know, for. We. We had sold another business and we went to launch, you know, Tech restore back in 2004.

Right.

And it was actually my partner that said, hey, you know, you really should have Renee come on board and she's sharp and manage the cash, healthcare, bookkeeping, you know, that kind of stuff. And, and you know, no one is going to watch your money and that kind of stuff as well as close as your spouse is.

Right.

So we said, yeah, that sounds great and worked out awesome. And I thought, you know, we certainly have had, you know, some things that we have to work out and you can benefit from our experience here by listening to the show.

Yeah, yeah. So as you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, yeah. 14 years ago, I think it was maybe 13, 14, I hired Lisa here, and it actually came about in a very interesting way. I decided I needed someone in my office with me. I started doing interviews. And this, of course, is an office at my home. So Lisa was a little, you know, she's like, all right, well, how's that going to work, you know, having someone else coming to the house? And we talked about that.

And this was before. Now you have a separate studio.

Yeah, that's right.

This was before that.

This was before that. It was before we moved here. Yeah. So we talked about that. She's like, okay, yeah, I think I can deal with that. You know, it's fine. And right about that time, her sister was looking for work, and her sister didn't have the skill set that I needed. And, you know, and. And Lisa said, wait a minute. Why don't we hire my sister to watch the kids during the day? You know, a couple, three days a week, Because I didn't need someone full time at the time. And she said, why don't I work for you? And I thought, huh, okay.

Yeah.

And, you know, so we talked through. I mean, we had already been talking through what I needed her to do or what I needed this, what I needed done. And I was like, oh, yeah, you can. Right? That would be great.

Sure.

And like you said, she's handling a lot of those things where it's. I'm passing off the management of the money, you know. Yeah. Like, I'm not going to find anyone that I trust any more than her, so. But it wasn't the first time she worked for me, you know, And I forgot about this until just now. Before, when we lived in Austin, I had a business partner, actually. I was the junior partner at a business that this other guy had started called Computer Nerds that we've talked about here. And we opened an office in Austin, and we needed someone to come in. We actually let our. What. What we called our dispatch nerd go. And we needed someone to. To replace him. And it was my partner's idea to bring in Lisa. And so we did, and she worked for us for about a year and a half, two years. And then there was all kinds of weird issues, nepotism issues from his side of. Of his family. And. And so I had to fire Lisa. This is while. Before we were married, while we were living together, obviously dating.

That's not. That's Comfortable.

Oh, it was a great day. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So. So she still married me after I fired her, so that was good.

That's a good sign.

Yeah, I guess so, but, yeah, that's cool.

Well, I think that, you know, one of the things that really helped in my experience was being able to sit down and discuss in very frank terms, openly, you know, what the expectations of the position and of the relationship and how you're going to handle things before you start. And I think it's probably when I say this because. Sounds easier, but maybe not, but it seems to be easier if you didn't have employees in your building at the same time you're working together, because that can be a little, I think, a little more difficult in the way you kind of handle your marriage and that kind of stuff.

Always. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And we had to deal with that at Nerds, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, what we've tried to do and first off, you know, manage your expectations is, you know, what roles are you each going to fill if you just kind of leave it out there? And it can be really ugly. So you want to take that org chart that we know you've been filling out since day one, even with all your names in. In those boxes, then get your, you know, put your spouse's name in those sections of the org chart in those boxes of what they're going to do. It's like, okay, well, maybe it's not just one thing. Maybe it's like, oh, you're going to do HR bookkeeping, or maybe, hey, you're going to handle the warehouse and the shipping or the sales, whatever it is. Having that discussion and having that clear path forward will pay you back in dividends down the road.

Oh, yeah, well, yeah. I mean, you wouldn't want that if you were hiring someone anyway.

Correct. I think that's what happens is people think, oh, just because they're my spouse. I don't. They're not. They shouldn't be treated like an employee. But they're. It's not that. Yes, it's different. But don't throw all those good things out when dealing with an employee that help you keep things on task and. And keep communication going. And that is one of them, really. You know, what is your role here? What are the expectations? How are you measured? You know, who. Who measures you?

Right, right.

And. And. Or, okay, well, you know, in my case, it's been like, well, you'll measure yourself, basically. You know, you know, how things are going to work and unless it backs up, then we, you know, have to figure stuff out. But. And it's never been that my wife has worked for. For me. You know, she's really worked with me.

Sure. Yeah. Right, right.

You know, I think if they were to directly report to you, that that could. That's a whole other challenge that if anybody is doing that or near listening, let us know how you've, you know, gotten through that and what works for you, you know, for us, what we've tried to do is really kind of keep our marriage out of the office, especially, you know, around employees and things. We just, you know, work together. And, yeah, we joke around maybe a little bit more, but, you know, you couldn't. I would like anybody to be able to walk in and not really tell that we were husband and wife.

Right. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And some of new employees come in, and they don't know because we don't introduce each other that way. And, you know, I say, this is Renee, and she runs this part of the business, you know, and at the same time, you know, we've kind of tried to keep our. Our office out of our marriage, you know, which is often harder because you want to talk about work, maybe around the dinner table and this stuff. But we. But I think for us, it's. It's. It's been better to focus on other aspects of our life and not talk about work as soon as we got home and talk, you know, with kids and other topics. I think that has worked out well for us.

Yeah, it's tough. Keeping the home out of the office. That's easy. But keeping the office out of the house, we were aware of that when it first happened, and we actually. Because the office was in the house, just in a separate part of the house, we would make a point of. If we started talking about work, we would just walk downstairs into the office and talk about it.

That's a great idea.

Yep. And it really kind of set that foundation for us, and now we. We bend those rules. But. But again with that foundation of, okay, we're in work mode now, and then now we're not. It's. It's pretty good. It. It works out okay. Yeah, yeah.

No, that. That's good. And I would say for us, it. Especially with this new, you know, social bag business experiment that we started in June, it's been a little bit more challenging because we're both sitting there, I got her. You know, she's helping build up followers and this kind of thing. We're both sitting there on our phone to where you, you know, you sit there and go, oh wait, we got to stop, you know, and put, put this stuff away. But I like having those boundaries. I think it's great and I think it's really, you know, when you're sitting down to think about what you're going to do, I think you're doing a disservice to your spouse and yourself if you are. You think you're going to put your spouse into oh, like a sales position when they have no background, no experience or an organizational position in your org chart when they're not organized around your house or that's not their skill set. So having that discussion up front I think is really important and much better than having to deal with a disaster of, wait, why didn't this work? How come you're not making sales? Or how come you're not keeping track of this accounting or that kind of thing?

So well, and, and with Lisa and I, we've, we, there's a clear distinction of who's the boss at work and it's me and, and that has worked out well. Like this is what I need and, and you work here and, and we're going to be respectful towards each other as we would be even if we weren't married, you know.

Yes, yes, correct.

But, but still, like, this is how it is and it's not going to change how we are at home. You know, just because I get to dictate what you do here doesn't suddenly mean that the house becomes, you know, the same way. And let me make it clear, that's not at all what the house is like or if anything, we know who.

The, we know who the boss is.

Correct? That's right. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good though. And you're right because especially when you're in, if you're in a leadership role, your, your spouse has to respect that. Talking to your employees, if you're in meetings, that kind of thing. I mean, and I've seen this where, you know, someone's spouse starts second guessing them in front of other, you know, employees or business partners or associates or whatever it is, you can't do that. It's just, you know, you just cringe and you know, you can do that at home all you want, have that discussion and you know, those kinds of things. But you have to really, if the one person's in the leadership role, you need to prop them up and support them. Doesn't mean you certainly when you go back in the office and say, hey, you know, I had. I think you ought to do this or change that. But a common front is really important. Yeah, really important. You know, and I think what you have to also do is you got to know there's going to be difficulties, there's going to be problems that come up. And the whole theme of this thing is communication and being able to. Knowing that, okay, we're going to have some issues, and when they do come up, this is how we're going to resolve them.

Right.

You know, and. And especially if you're at work and something comes up on a personal issue, you know, close the door in your office or go somewhere.

Yes.

So you can have that discussion.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Because that will happen as it does to everyone. You know, you get that phone call when you're at work from your spouse and. Or your. Your kids or whatever it is, and there' home problem that has nothing to do with work. And yet isn't, you know, emergency enough that it needs to be discussed right away. Yeah. Try and keep your employees out of that just because the two of you are in the office. Yep.

Yes. Yes. I think that's a really good rule of thumb. I mean, if you were, I guess you could ask yourself, you know, if a husband and wife or if I was uncomfortable listening in on some personal information. Just think how your employees are going to feel, you know, about that.

Right.

They don't want to be involved in those kinds of things. And, you know, and at the same time, certainly talk about other things and you can, you know, light things. And I think humor and laughter is critically important, using that to dissolve tension. Because I think your employees are expecting you expecting this kind of some kind of tension or something. Maybe not tension, but they're expecting things to go a little differently than a normal employer employee relationship. And when you can joke around with your spouse and give each other a hard time a little bit. I mean, this morning I was doing some stuff, and I. Renee came out, hey, oh, you need some help? And we're out in the warehouse and we're unloading a bunch of stuff. Track doing stuff. And she's way, way better at it than I am because I'm just like, I'm just flying. My personality is, you know, know, I'm moving quick. I'm like, oh, no, discount that. Just do it this way. And she's looking at me like, you know, hey, do you want me here or not?

Right, right.

And we're, you know, we start joking around about it, and everybody else Is working in the warehouse, is laughing because they know how I am.

Yeah.

You know, and I just want to get the darn thing done so I can get on to the next project. But actually, you know, in this case, it's very important to be methodical and to kind of work through it. And so I think that by keeping it light, it is a good way to dissolve what could have been, you know? Hey, what, are you questioning me? You know, this kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You've got it. That's. That's really smart. You've got to have. It's almost not code, but a plan to deal with those moments when. When the mistake happens. Right. Where. Where there is a challenge that happens. And you just got to inst. Especially when it's in front of employees. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. Right. I mean, it matters, but in a different way. But when it's in front of employees. Yeah. You just got to kind of brush it off and joke about it and move on very quickly. Yep. Yeah, that's smart.

Yeah. And I think that one of the things, and I really thought about it till we started talking today, that my wife has really helped to make me a better business owner is her perspective as an employee.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. And because, you know, she. When we first started out, you know, she worked for a law firm, and we needed that. You know, we needed her income, we needed the health care. I mean, all those things that, you know, we weren't making any money when we first started. And so. And even after that, once we started to have some success with our first business, you know, the first decade, she continued to work there, and she would constantly remind me, and she still does to this day, which it's great that my view is sometimes, you know, you get tunnel vision sometimes, because the things that, like, excite me or challenge me could often strike fear into, you know, someone that doesn't have that same worldview or the same experience where you think, oh, I'll just go out and start something up again, or I'll try this. I'll try, you know, so she really has helped ground me by discussing lots of issues that we've had with the business that always come up, but from the perspective of someone that has worked for a company for a long time, and, you know, I. I haven't worked for anybody since I was in college.

Right.

You know.

Right, right.

You get. You get a certain view of things, and so that perspective can really go a long way to making you a better, better business. Owner. For sure.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting thing. I, you know, I. So I'm going to ask you the question and I'll. I'll answer it myself, too. But if someone came to you today and said, hey, man, you know, I've. I've got this business and I need to bring somebody on, and I'm thinking of bringing on my spouse, what do you. Is the advice yes or no? I mean, I know, I know we have all the details of the advice here once the decision has been made, but is the advice yes or, dude, just stay away?

Oh, I think the advice is a solid yes, but it would also. I think you'd have to ask them, well, if you know the spouse, what are you going to have them do? Because I think that is, you can't just want your spouse to come work for you just because they're your spouse. And you think if you're thinking along, oh, I can save some money or I could do whatever. That's not the way. It's just like bringing in a new employee to solve some problem. As you say, wow, I need someone to do this. I happen to know this person that is really good at this type of thing. What if we were to bring them in and have them do it here?

Yeah, that's really good advice. Yeah. Make the right hiring decision, regardless of anything else around it. Yeah.

Because it's a nightmare. You know how it is. I'm sure hiring someone then realizing, wow, they're just no good at this and this is not their skill set. And, you know, we, we have this, you know, we, we praise that mantra here. You know, hire slowly and fire quickly. Well, not, you know, having to have that discussion with a spouse has got to be.

I mean, it's not easy. It's not easy. I can say that from. From personal experience, as I mentioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, in that case, I had somebody else I could blame for it because it really was. It had nothing to do with skills or anything. It was just this, like, the nepotism at this company, and I had been roped into it. Right. You know, was just rampant and created office politics that just no one was unaware of the problem, and that's why it had to be addressed.

I see.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, there's also a lot of other benefits. Having your spouse, you know, work with you from a personal side. Number one, you get to see each other a lot more. Hopefully that's a good thing in your eyes. And, you know, you you get to bounce things back, you know, off somebody you really trust. And there's also a bunch of tax benefits and financial planning benefits that your accountant and financial planner can. Can help you take advantage of and things that you can put together. And, you know, if you, if you're setting up a 401k plan for your company and you're going to do profit sharing, well, there's two of you now.

Yeah. Now you got to double. You get to double dip in a very legal way. That's right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, if you're running in your employees of your corporation and that, you know, there's all kinds of ways to help you lead that charmed life. And, you know, a charmed life is not always based on what you take in your paycheck. As we've talked here. It's all the, it's all the other things that your business can do for you. And when your spouse is involved, it can often do it twice. You know, it can. If you need another company car, well, there's some benefits there if that makes sense for your business or if you're. If you're traveling to go to a trade show and you need to both be there. I mean, there's a lot of things that you can look at. And so I would encourage you to look at the options. But I really think you need to go into it with your eyes wide open. You need to have that discussion. Because if you can't have a really good discussion about it when you're getting started, just think it's how it's going to be when things don't go exactly as planned.

Oh, yeah.

And, and so I think that's real important. We'll link. There's a, there's some great articles out there related to this, and we'll, we'll put them up there in the show. Notes up on the, you know, entrepreneur.com and business news daily about how to do it and how to make it a success so it can be a really great part of your charmed life, which I really think it can.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Good stuff, man, as always. Yeah, folks, FeedbackusinessShow Co is where you can find us. But, you know, we said it last week. Let's stick with it again. Visit BusinessShow Co iTunes, if you would please, and leave us a review there. Having this constant kind of, you know, recurring pressure on those itunes reviews and just bringing that number up and up really, really makes it difference for us. So if you're going to do one thing for us. After you listen to the episode, please make it that business show co itunes. Leave us a review there. We really appreciate it.

Awesome. And have a great, you know, long holiday week with your family and friends. And we appreciate your support.

Absolutely. Keep living that charm life. Happy Thanksgiving, Shannon. Yep.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Dave. Take care, Sam.