Intentional Tension, The last 10% and When People Quit

Hey, it's time for another episode of the Small Business Show.

Yes.

How you doing, Dave?

I'm good, man. How are you?

I'm good. I'm excited about what we're going to talk about today because it's one of the most frustrating things I think I've ever faced is losing people or having things fall apart almost before they're ready to launch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The tension of the project gets to some people and, and that tension can actually be really productive. And we talk about that, too. Yeah, yeah.

I like the way you pitch that today when we talk about that intentional tension. I think it could be really valuable for your team.

Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's. I'm looking forward to it. So you ready to roll today?

Yeah, let's go.

All right. It's. Yes. It's beyond. It's, It's. It's beyond. I don't care if you don't like it. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. Right. It's just like this is. This is where we're going, so.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if you're not going to go with me, get out of the way so I can find somebody else that's going this way.

That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Despite the fact that I've known you for 10 years and you've worked for me and we've got.

If you're not the right person, that's fine. Yes, that's fine. Yeah. It's an emotionless decision. Greetings, folks, and welcome to the small Business show here@businessshow.com co the show that is by, for and about small business. Today is Wednesday, August 28th, or at least that's the day we're releasing episode 238 here. Sponsors for this episode include linode@linode.com SBS go.co SBS and mint mobile.com SBS. We'll talk more about all of those at some point during the episode here. But for right now, here in Durham, New Hampshire. Back in Durham, New Hampshire, I think I woke up in New York today. I don't know. I don't even know anymore. I'm Dave Hamilton. That I know. I think that's good. Yeah.

Yeah. And out on the West Coast, I'm Shannon Jean. I do know that for sure as well.

There you go. You might as well say that you do, even if you're not entirely sure. That's right.

Yeah. Sometimes I, you know, usually I am.

Yeah.

But I question it sometimes, you know, you kind of have recreate this own reality. We talk about it a lot here on the show and sometimes go, okay, well, now, what am I going to be today?

Right? That's right. That's right.

Usually I know who I'm going to be, so.

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It's good. Sponsors make us possible.

Sponsors do make us possible. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, for sure.

Awesome. Awesome. So we have some interesting stuff we're going to talk about today.

Some.

Topics that you came back with from some recent meetings and stuff. And I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

Yeah, yeah, it's. So, yeah, the one I think the one I want to start with is one that I call this is a toy. A term that I have coined, intentional tension. Right. And it did come up in a discussion, but it really, like I've seen it everywhere. I've seen it at many successful companies. Apple's a great example of a company that uses intentional tension. Right. But it. But they're not the only one. And certainly aren't the, weren't the first and won't be the last. But by intentional tension, what I mean is a scenario where you are creating a not entirely fun work environment in order to produce the best result. And it's a short term pressure cooker, if you will, right? Where, you know, let's say you're, you're, you know, you're, you're building something, right? And you have, you create a scenario where you have multiple priorities that are potentially at odds with each other, right? Like let's, you know, like, I mean, the iPhone's a great example because we all kind of know what they are. So we want this thing that's small but has a big screen. We want this thing that is lightweight but has long battery life, right? You know, we, we want it, we want it to be thin but also long battery life, like, right? And also, you know, we need to create this within a certain budget and we need to create this on a certain timeline, right? And all of those things are equal priorities, right? And, and the trick is to not let you know if you've got individual people or groups of people representing each of those priorities in managing that. The trick is to make sure that no one gets to become the 800 pound gorilla that trumps every else, right? I mean, the time, the timeline thing, you know, time marches forward, right? So that, that eventually will become that 800 pound gorilla. But if you can avoid that for as long as possible, then what you get is people, you know, sort of jockeying for positions, saying, okay, well mine is the most important thing to get. But I know that I have to appease all of these other factors. And you can do this to yourself. You don't need other people, you just need to manage the factors, right? Like I, I, you know, I, I need to, we're talking about servers, I, I'm migrating stuff to a new server, right? And, and I mean we're working with, with some of our admin team and all that on it, but it's like, okay, well I want it to be fast and cheap and you know, but it has to be able to do all the things that we need to do. And we need to get migrated to it all. Yeah, we need to get migrated to it quickly, but we need to do it carefully and we need to do it a certain way and like it. All of these things, it. Migrating this stuff is not a fun process. But I will tell you, when we're at the end of it, we all feel really good about it and that's sort of the trick of this intentional tension. This, you know, I say it's a short term period. When it, when this is over I will create an intentional tension about something else. Right. But, but, but it's, you know, it's short lived and then we get to the end and it's like oh hey, we made it out of the pressure cooker. That's pretty cool. Like look what we did. This is better than what we would have done if we just said we should come to work every day and feel like comfor comfortable and relaxed and you know that that's nice some of the time but not all of the time. And I think that's sort of the point is you, you shouldn't necessarily be just coasting along all the time. You've got to challenge yourself.

Yeah, I like that it, would you say that. So my question, that intentional tension. What if you had two different groups or two different people or managers, however you want to set it and they both had the same goal but we're coming at it from different with different solutions.

Sure.

Would that be a similar type of things? Like okay, we're gonna build this thing and it has to be light, super thin but we need the best battery life possible. Team A, team B, go and you have the same budget and the same time frame and you got to present your findings and whoever wins, you know, everybody gets a bonus. And this kind of thing.

Yeah.

Would you say that's a similar kind of thing?

Absolutely. And I, you know, I mean I've been covering Apple for decades so I have those examples in my head. But um, you know that's how the I, the original ipod came to be. They, they had several teams working and I, I don't think that's a isolated case at Apple. I think that's more the norm. They had several teams working on various different paradigms of what an you know, mp3 player would look like. And obviously the team that came up with the click wheel was the one that won but, but not all the, you know that was the only one that had the click wheel. The rest had like some buttons or a display, you know, there paradigms and it was like wait, nope, this is the winner. Okay. Yep, yep.

Interesting. And because there's like a, there's a very old management paradigm philosophy or whatever and I, I can remember my mom was a, a pretty, I guess high powered executive you'd call her. And they. Part of their management training and how to handle their kind of mid level managers was to always keep them uncomfortable yes. And to always have. Because complacency, you know, breeds mediocrity.

Right?

Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it's a similar theme, you know, and it, Even though you may think it kind of sucks to be kept on uncomfortable, whatever, it, it really probably does produce. I'm sure it does produce better work.

Better results.

Yeah, better results.

Yeah.

And then maybe in between those times, you get a little, oh, hey, you were. Now we can celebrate how good you did. You get a bonus or whatever. But then now here's the next challenge that we're going to introduce that you have to solve. I like it. I think, yeah, it's. It's really a good, A good method to, to embrace. I think it is.

And, you know, you can, you can look at your own organization and figure out what the, the competing priorities are. But that, you know, that's what you're looking, is to identify, you know, the competing priorities and where possible, make them as equal as possible. Right. So that you are able to actually create this tension. Because if there's one priority that, that truly does trump all others. Well, that doesn't, you know, that doesn't make this as easy to do. Right, right.

Of course, if you're. If.

Yeah.

I think as a. As managers or business owners, we also have to be careful not to have a preconceived idea in your head or to be aware that as humans, we often have preconceived ideas how something should work. Ye, to be open to whoever or whatever team or whatever department really does come up with a better solution that meets, you know, the needs of whatever it is, the product, the business, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah, you need. Exactly. Yeah.

Because I would say I've definitely had that problem, you know, before where, you know, you want everybody's involvement, but you've already made the decision. And that's not a good way. Not a good way to do it.

Well, I mean, sometimes that does happen, right. Where that's what you do. And then, you know, and then people are just implementing and perhaps being. And perhaps even in that. Right. Like, you know, I'll rewind to the ipod. Like there was a decision made. We are going to make an MP3 player. Okay.

Yeah, great.

Like, okay, so we're not just designing, you know, out of whole cloth. We have a goal in mind. So how do we get there? But so I guess even if you do have that, you know, it's where you have the preconceived notion of exactly how it's all going to happen. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, if, if it is a good path, take it, but know that you're not creating this scenario, that this is, you know.

Yeah.

This is not that. Yeah. Right.

And I think the key is, because this, this type of scenario is going to happen over and over and over, is to come up with the system or the framework that your people can work within, so they're familiar with it. So once you reach this, you know, end product or whatever it is, achievement that you're gonna, you know.

Yeah.

You're working on, when you're ready to roll in the next one, it's like, okay, I know how we do this. We then lay these things out. Here's the, you know, the markers. Here's what we want to achieve. You know, that kind of thing.

Yep, exactly. Exactly.

That's cool.

Yeah. No, I really. Yeah. And I am at times guilty of trying to make everyone too happy.

Oh, I totally have. I was thinking that exact thing when we started talking about some like, wow, you know, I'm not as good as this, as at this, as I should be.

Right.

Because I have this vision in my head of creating this awesome place to work and I want to come every day and we're bringing our dogs and we barbecue and we play ping pong. And, you know, it's tough when you introduce that kind of tension and not to. I mean, you don't, you don't want to. I'm worried about perceived. How it's going to be perceived or how maybe more. More accurate. How I'm going to be perceived.

Yes.

Laying these things out. So you, you really have to become. And I, I would argue that the most successful people, if you look around, they're not worried about this.

They're.

They're just like, hey, this, I don't care what you think of me. This is going to happen and you guys need to figure out a way to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know that's the key. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always joke with my kids. We talk about people, you know, super successful, you know, whether billionaires or whatever, Bezos or, you know, these guys, Gates or Jobs. I'm always like, those guys are not friendly guys, you know, those, you know, maybe at home they are. Maybe, maybe. But yeah, maybe.

Yeah, yeah.

But they're, they are, you know, so they are by definition, you know, introducing this intentional tension and achieving unbelievable things with it.

That's correct. Yeah. No, and that, that's, that's, that's right. I, I've always said that those guys exhibit some properties of sociopathy. Right. Where it's just like, I, I, well, that's all, that's all fine, but we're going over here now and, and I need you to, like, create the path to get there. And, and I don't care that you don't like it. You know, like that kind of thing.

It's not even matter if it, if it's not possible. You're, you're, we're going to do it, right?

Yes, it's, yes, it's beyond. It's, it doesn't matter. It's beyond. I don't care if you don't like it. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. Right. It's just like this is, this is where we're going, so.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And if you're not going to go with me, get out of the way so I can find somebody else that's going this way.

That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Despite the fact that I've known you for 10 years and you've worked for me and we've got.

If you're not the right person, that's fine. Yes, that's fine. Yeah. I think it's an emotionless decision, or if there's emotion, it's, it's wrapped up in the end result, not in the, you know, keeping people happy along the way. There might be emotion, though, wrapped up in knowing how great people are going to feel about themselves when you get to the end, as long as they get to the end. And I think that's sort of the next topic that we're going to talk about here. But yeah, before we jump into that.

I want to remember, I don't know if I've mentioned this before in the show, but there's a PowerPoint presentation that Floating around, it's from Netflix, all about how they handle people within your organization. And when you said, oh, if you're not the right person, that kind of reminded me of it in the sense that they don't think of their, everyone as a family. They're all like professional sports stars or on a team.

Right.

They run their, their company like a professional sports team. And so when they need a new person, and I'll give you an example, at one point, they needed somebody that was the absolute best at logistics because they were shipping DVDs all over the country.

Right. Makes sense.

So they found the best, like, let's say, running back, if you want to.

If you want to take a football analogy. Right, sure.

Okay, we need this guy or a first baseman. Who's the best?

Great.

So after some years, the person that was in charge of this and the business shifted to become more like a Hollywood studio, they simply went to this person, said, okay, you're no longer the star we need. Thank you. Here's the door, here's some severance, and now we're gonna go find the next person. And they, they introduced this concept like the. The day you're hired. And there's a great podcast that. About the. And I'll. I'll post a link in the show notes of the woman who wrote this policy with Reed Hastings. And she actually became. It happened to her.

It happened to her too. Yeah.

Of course, after a certain number of years, he, you know, Reid walked in and said, no, you know, it's time. Everything's great. I mean, it's. It. Talk about keeping people on edge, you know, because you had to prove almost daily that you were the best and earn your spot on the team, just like a professional, I guess sports player would be. Because if there's a backup waiting to take over your spot the day you stop being the absolute best.

Yeah. And really interesting.

Talk about tension. Yeah.

Wow. But I can see why it works. I mean, it's, it, you know, if you follow sports, sports at all, whatever sport, like, it works there, like that is the formula. No one expects that, oh, I'm guaranteed to be on this team. You might have a five year contract with that team, but they could trade that contract out real fast, you know, Happens all the time. Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, it's just kind of interesting. Similar. Yeah, it's pretty wild. So, okay, man, what, what else, what else are we going into here?

I. I want to. I want to take this and kind of move to the next topic, which is this idea of, you know, people quitting when the going gets good. Like before you get to the end result. But first, yes. I want to talk about our two next sponsors. And our next sponsor is Mint Mobile. If you listen to last week's episode with Mint Mobile, C. Mo. Right. Cmo Aaron North, I think.

Yep.

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So it's so bizarre, but it's, it's worth talking about it because I need to be educated on how this happens and why we think it happens.

Yeah, I see this all the time where you get, you know, this pressure situation, right, that we talked about earlier where you're doing something new and different and that's a little bit scary. Right. So you get fear involved and we know fear based decisions bad. Right. But also like, you know, it's not, it's fear of not just failure, but fear of success too. Like, because that's an unknown. Right? That's if you're creating something that you've never done before, well then success is change. And we're all afraid of change because we're human beings. It's just we're built in naturally, you know, we have this natural aversion to change. I see. I saw this most recently not in a, you know, typical business environment, but in a theater environment. I was doing last summer, I was doing a performance or a run of Tommy the. Who's Tommy? Right.

Okay.

And we had our first rehearsal on, I want to say it was Saturday with the show was going to open on Thursday. Now the cast, the, you know, the actors had been rehearsing for a while. They knew most everything. And as the band, we come into the first rehearsal familiar with the material, but it's going to be, we call it a stumble through. Right? Because there's going to be things that are like, oh, right, that doesn't work. Okay, let's fix this. That sort of thing, right? So we do our stumble through on Saturday and it's a mess, as it always is.

Should be, Right? Yes.

Yeah, Right. But everybody's a pro. Everybody's gonna like, you know, you just have to trust because sometimes it's really hard to believe, but you just trust it anyway. Like, the process will get us there by Thursday. This thing's gonna. The show's gonna open, like, you know, talk about intentional tension, right? Time is part of it. So time is one of the factors. It's the most important. Quality is one of the factors. It's the most important. Sound is one of the factors, right? It's the most important, right? Like you. I mean, it's really exactly what we were talking about. And so we do this and we run through this, and it's kind of a mess. And nobody's perfect. Like, any stretch. I mean, you're never going to get a perfect performance, even though you might strive for that, right? Even. Even if you do the run for a long time, like, you know, you get. You might get one performance where you walk away and you're like, oh, that was the one. That was pretty good, you know, but so we finished this rehearsal, and I think we had the next day that Sunday was off, and then we were back there on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and then obviously opening the show on Thursday. Fine. No problem. The guitar player, as he was, you know, as we were all getting ready to leave, he's like, yeah, I want to bring my amp home so that I can, you know, work on some sounds. I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I. I'm highlighting this now because in retrospect, it was obvious what was happening. It seemed weird, but it certainly didn't, to me, telegraph that we were never going to see this guy again so long as we shall live. But, in fact, we have never seen him again.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And it was, you know, I mean, I. I think some of the people know him. It like, he wasn't an unknown character in all of this, but. But, okay, he never came back to the show. Like, there was no talking him back into it. And it was exactly this. He saw the pressure, and he was like, dude, I'm not going to be ready. It's like, well, we all believe that right now, but we all just sort of put that thought out of our minds. And that's what you have to do, is you just have to say, yeah, I'm scared to death here, because if I play the way that I just played, forget about what everybody else did and forget about trying to lock in with everybody else. If I do what I did on Saturday on opening night, we're gonna have a major problem, right? And that's true of every single person there. And so it feels like a disaster because In a sense, it was. But you have to start somewhere. It's, you know, and you don't start from perfection. If you could start from perfection, there would be no reason to have what they call tech week. Right. You know, where you're getting together every night to do these things, like, if you could build the perfect product or, you know, if I could. To use my example before, if I could just, you know, magically snap my fingers and everything was migrated to the new server, well, then there's no reason to put in the time.

It's all right there.

Yeah.

And that. That perfection, that seeking of that will destroy. I mean, it just ruins your chances of success and your chances of being able to launch, whether it's a product, whether you're in a performance like that. I mean, you just can't think like that.

You can't expect to be an expert on the thing you are doing new for the first time. The first time.

Yeah. And you don't need to be.

Oh, it's ridiculous. Yeah.

No one. I would argue that especially in performance things, all the little things that you are so freaked out about, those help you get better. But most people that are there watching the show are not picking up on your specific performance. They're there for the whole thing. And they don't see most of this because my daughter's in, you know, theater as well. She would say, oh, did you see that part? And I was like, that we messed up here. I'm like, no, it was awesome. I had no idea. And, you know, so we're all.

There's even other performers on stage with. You don't notice. Like, I did a run of this show called Hedwig and the Angry Inch this weekend, which is a blast to do. And the guy who played Hedwig, we got off stage, I think, Friday night, and we were in the dressing room, like, taking our makeup and stuff off, and he was really down and beating himself up. And he's like, God, that was a disaster. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, oh, I messed this up and this up. And I just couldn't get into the flow of things. Like, dude, I was literally on stage with you the entire time. I'm listening intently to every word you're saying because those are my cues to start the next song. Like, I'm really into this. And I've done it now, you know, 10 times with you. So if there are changes in the way you do things, I will notice, you know, like, long before anybody in the Crowd would notice. I'm gonna notice. Like, if you asked me, I would have said you had one of your best nights tonight.

It's, yeah. So, yeah, it comes back to that. We're all very focused on our, on ourselves. Right. It's just a human condition, the way we look, how we do what we do, but because everyone else is also focused on their, themselves, they're gonna miss all that stuff.

I mean, you can count on that. That's right.

Yeah. Of course, of course. They're not paying attention to the way you look, the way you sound. Not as much, you know, not as much.

Yeah.

Doing their own thing. And I, I, I, I, it's, it's a fascinating concept. I've recently had some experience with it as well. And I, I, my thoughts are, it's not uncommon that the last 10% of anything you do is really where things can go wrong.

Right.

Whether it's, you know, in your case, you're getting ready to launch, do the show, or you're launching a new business, completing a new project, a new product launch, whatever it is. But I, I'm amazed. And this has happened to me a number of times where you get right to the edge where things look so close and somebody bails out.

Yeah.

I had, with Tech Restore, we had a, you know, a number of years ago, great partner with an on site company and this guy that, you know, ran service on site, which we didn't offer, and said, look, let's use our marketing power and our, you know, installed base and we'll start offering this on site stuff all over the country. We, I mean, I spent almost a year putting all this stuff together, built websites, created, you know, all kinds of digital assets and this whole thing. And literally, right, I would say we were 30 days within launch and this, this guy, nice enough guy, you know, came and just said, I just can't, I don't have it in me, I just can't do it.

And that's so classic because, because it's that fear of success. I really believe it. The last 10% is hard. Don't get me wrong. Like, it is hard, but, but I don't think it's the fear of we can't do it. I think it's the fear of we can.

I agree with you. But I think there is that fear of failures in there too.

They're the same thing, right? Yes.

Yeah, there you go. If, if the other side of the same coin, right? If, if, if we launch and everybody knows now I'm trying this, then I've got a whole other part of my, you know, psyche, you know, out there that could get damaged. And I mean, it makes me speechless. And this is not the only time it's happened to me where, you know, and unfortunately, in this case, this guy was kind of the key person where I didn't have the bandwidth to take this project. And, and, and I couldn't really plug anyone else in, so we really had to pull the plug. You know, we talk about the fallacy of sunk cost. You know, it's like, oh, okay, you know, there goes, we're, we're done with this. You know, there goes 50 grand, you know, down the tube. But we learned a lot. And I would say that there's a few things I've been reading up on this, once we've talked about this, and a few things that you can do to help avoid this happening with your team, especially if it's a new partner, a new employee, is have that discussion about how the last 10% is going to be really tough. Have that discussion at the beginning. At the beginning, when you start talk, you're going to go, okay, here's what we're creating and here's our timeline and we're going to do this, we're going to do that. Be aware that these last, you know, 10 items on the list or whatever are going to be really difficult, and it's going to be different at that point from this. So. And just keep talking about it.

Oh, that's really smart. And I would, I would say, you know, there's the, the, the easy. I'll call it the easy sandwich, right? Because the, the, the start when you're like, okay, now whole cloth, like, you got to figure out, build a plan, you know, how do we get started? Right? That's a really hard thing to do. Then you're sort of moving along on this plan for a little while. So you've got this hard part at the beginning, then you're moving along on the plan. Not that it, that's easy, but it's easy. At least you sort of know what to do next, you know, because you've built this plan at the beginning, and then the end is really hard because you got to actually, like, you know, do the finished carpentry and make it look good and, and all of that stuff that, you know, the, the meat it needs to look good when it gets to the end. And so, you know, you call it the, the easy sandwiched amongst the difficult, right? Because it's going to be hard at the beginning. And as Hard as the beginning was, expect the end to be even harder, because now you care. Right. Like, at the beginning, you're like, whatever. Like, it's all pie in the sky. Yep. And now at the end, you've got 90% of the work done. You don't want to mess it up.

I also. And I would say that it's that your description is, like, what happens with a lot of contractors, like, building contractors that you hire. A lot of them just disappear halfway through or three quarters of the way through, and you're like, wait, wait, what happened? Because then the. It's where the rubber meets the road, Right. You have to finish the cabinets, you have to do. Get the floors done. Whatever it is, it has to be inspected.

Molding, Right. Yeah. You've got to get all that stuff done. And that's not easy. No. Yeah.

And the other thing I was thinking of as you were talking is that I think there's another reason. It's not just fear of failure or fear of success. It's also, like, I really like change. I'm not afraid of change. I'm actually. I love it. It is what drives me all the time. What I'm afraid of is the daily grind. I shouldn't say afraid, but I don't like it. I don't like the part where you have to do it over and over and over again once you've created it, Right.

Oh, that's true. At the end, then you just have to now live with this thing. That's right.

You got to manage it. And that's not as fun for me. So I get, at the. Towards the end of a project, especially the longer it takes to get it to the end, you know, I'm loving the creative part. You know, building this, creating a logo, picking colors, building a website, creating an app. I love that part. That's. That's gets my juices flowing and it challenges me and it uses a lot of my skills.

Right.

So I feel very. I feel very valued. But then at the end, you're like, okay, now the product is done, I really need to get away from it.

Right.

And hand it to someone else. And fortunately, I've been able to do that for. In many instances. But I find it harder when I can't hand it to someone else, because now it's like, okay, I have to go out there and do Daily Grind. How many did we sell? How many people did we sign up? I mean, all these kinds of things.

So I got myself into podcasting. You know, I. My plan was to start the podcast that we have at Mac observer, which is called now called MacGeek, the first episode was called TMO, the Mac observer, it was called TMO to go. And then we changed it for the second episode and then by about the fourth episode, third or fourth episode, Apple featured us and our listener numbers went through the roof. And we started getting all this like listener feedback in and it was like, crap, I can't hand this off. Like I'm the host.

Yeah, yeah, crap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fascinating.

Yeah. I mean, I enjoy the heck out of it. Obviously. It's all fine, of course, but it was not part of the plan to, to grind it out every week for 14 years.

I think if you find yourself, you know, procrastinating, getting the projects completed or getting the product launch and trying to make it perfect or whatever it is, you, if you may be one of those people that like, well, I love the creative part, but I don't like this part. So you got to try to identify what it is. And I think there's a great company called 37signals.37signals.com, you can find them. And they make some phenomenal software, web based software to help manage your business. Basecamp and Campfire, a couple and they, and they wrote a book called rework, which I've mentioned a number of times on the show, but they also wrote a book called Get Real. And it is the process that they use to create these programs, these applications that run on the web. And they wrote this book because they are, they experience a lot of what we're talking about here on the show. It's free, you can download it. I'll put a link there in the notes. And it really is like a master class in managing projects and more important thing, getting things done and completed quickly. You know, they are really focused on limiting features, if you will. Right, sure. We're not going to add a bunch of stuff. And once we say this is it, this is it, we're not adding this kind of thing. They talk a lot about breaking bigger projects down into smaller parts so that you're actually completing 100% of a lot of little things instead of 90% of one giant thing that can be kind of foreboding. So you, you then put these pieces of the puzzle, okay, done, done, done, done, done. And then at the, you know, towards the end, you're like, hey, we're done. You know, you got all these things done, I got all these things done. And they also talk about limiting the timeline to just like, hey guys, we're going to build this thing in, in, you know, if, if you can build it in in a week, why take a month? If you, you know, they basically embrace constraints, you know, giving yourself too much time is not going to help you get things done. And they reference this thing I mentioned too early, Dave. Parkinson's law, where the work you're. You're doing will expand itself to fill up the time that is available for its completion.

Oh, absolutely, yes.

And I have the same problem. It's like, okay, you know, I can get this done. You put it off a little bit. Whatever, you kind of tweak or whatever. So giving yourself those constraints and breaking things up into smaller chunks, I think is great. And that book, Get Real, even though it's kind of. And they even say it in the introduction, it's really built for people creating software. But there's some tremendously valued business lessons in there for all of us, and I would highly recommend you take a look at it.

I think it's called Getting Real if I'm looking at the link. Right. Yeah, no, I just want to make sure people, when they see the show notes, it's all there in the show notes for folks. But.

Yeah, yes, but there's some great stuff and they make some great software too. We ought to have one of those guys on the show.

That would be a great idea.

Yeah, yeah. And, but, you know, being aware that this problem is typically, you know, is very common and it could rear its head as you're working on projects or trying to achieve things. I think that's the biggest thing that, the biggest takeaway from today's show is when you're starting something new, understand that that last big push is going to be problematic. And I, you know, I've had this problem happen and I've had this discussion, but I don't think I've had it early enough in the process. So for my next, you know, my next, My next trick. Yeah, yeah, I'm. It's going to be like I'm going to put it in the working agreement, you know, so right when we start to talk about building something or doing something together with people, a group or a person, we're going to have that discussion, say, okay, I want to recognize that the last 10% or 20%, whatever it is, that is the hardest part. And we're going to have to really be aware of all these things, and here's what we'll do to mitigate it. I think it's good to have that discussion on the get go.

Yeah, yeah. That's a great idea. Yeah. It's funny, you know, I mean, we. The working document is a. Is a great sort of catch all for, for these types of things. But the things that you, we each learn, you know, as we move through our business lives about, like, partnerships and those sorts of things. You and I are both partner people. Like, we, you know, we tend to gravitate towards scenarios where we can find, okay, you can do that part that I'm not good at or I don't like to do, which generally turns out to be the same thing. You know, I'll do the parts that you don't like or you're not good at and like, perfect, like match made in heaven. Right. And. And the things that are in our respective default working agreements, you know, those boilerplate. They tell a story, don't they? They do.

Yes, they do. As you keep adding things.

Yes, exactly. It's like, oh, I see you've been here before. Okay, check the box. Yep.

That's pretty good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it.

And so I think talking about contracts, you, you know, I think it's time for another episode of our business therapy section in the podcast.

Is that right? It is. I feel like we almost need like a, Some theme music for this that's like, you know, kind of like, like mellow and chill.

I'm gonna work on that.

I'm gonna work on that. Great. Yeah, yeah.

Because listeners know we're changing up some of the format on the show, kind of some new things. So we appreciate your patience while we do that.

Yeah. But, yeah, so I, I have this thing, and I've run into it a few times now where, you know, we bring on publishers here at Backbeat Media. We, we manage the sponsorships and some other things. But, but generally the bulk of our business is managing the sponsorships for publishers, both podcasters as well as website owners.

Okay.

Okay. Sure. And in order to do that, right, like, let's say I'm approaching you, you know, Joe Podcaster. Okay. And we're having a conversation. It's like, great, you know, how do things work? Oh, well, let me tell you how things work here. We, here's how we do it, you know, and I would ask you the same questions. How does your show, you know, how often do you publish? What? You know, how many listeners do you have? Like, we, you know, we go through this process, this little dance of just getting to know each other because that's what you have to do. And then we mutually decide. Okay, is this a thing we want to do together. And we don't, you know, in our company, we don't want every podcaster, like, and every publisher. We sort of cultivate a list that, that works really well for the types of clients that we have. Right, okay.

Smart.

Yeah.

Makes.

I think it's smart. I mean, other people are doing quite well with, you know, thousands of shows. We are doing well with dozens of shows. So, you know, it's all fin. And then it's like, okay, how does it work? Like, what are the logistics of us working together? We both admit that we want to. So now let's talk about the details. And the details would be things like, you know, we do a revenue share with our podcasters where, you know, the ad brings in X number of dollars. We keep a percentage of that for bringing the ad in and managing the process. And you get the rest because you're the podcaster with the audience that's delivering the ad. Right. So we go through all that and actually I make sure we talk about all of that kind of stuff in the first conversation. I do not like to hide that kind of thing. You know, I like to be upfront, we're up front.

If that's a problem, then it's a done deal. Yeah. Hey, we can't then. Yeah, we can't. Why? Yeah, why? Wasting more time.

I talk about in the same vein. I talk about salaries or, you know, pay, whatever it's going to be, if it's hourly or whatever. But I talk about pay on the first job interview, interview with somebody. Because for the same reason, like, why are we, why would we waste each other's time if I don't have enough money to pay you what you think you're worth, and you may well be worth that. Don't, you know, don't take it the wrong way, but I can't pay you that. So, okay, off you go, you know, or you know, or. Yes. Oh, that fits. Okay, great. Let's keep talking. So we talk about all of that and then it's okay. How do you get paid? How does, how do we manage things? How does the, what does the process look like? You know, when an ad comes in, you know, how does that work? We go to the show we vet. We call it the vetting process, where, you know, sponsor A will say, I'm interested, or we find out that, you know, we're starting to work with sponsor A, so we'll go to our shows first and sort of pre vet things. Like if sponsor A is interested, would you take their ad so that we can present to them with confidence that when, you know, sponsor A says yes, I want shows, you know, 1, 5, 7 and 9. Okay, great. Then, you know, we go back and we can book those because we already know that the show is going to approve having that ad and that sponsor.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah. When we always tell people, you got veto power all the way through. Right. Like, even if you tell us yes, and then later you decide, no, that's fine, you have veto power. Do that too often. And obviously, you know, if there's a pattern there, we might have to have a conversation because we've been spinning our wheels. But we, you know, we understand it's your show. Okay. All of that stuff. Now, these are all great points to talk about and we talk about them, but it's all. I think it's really good to have these written down because we need to know how it's all going to work and we need something to point back to, to say, no, no. Like, okay, you know, if they say, well, how come I haven't gotten paid yet? Or how come. Yeah, you put this sponsor on my show? And you know. Or how come the schedule's working this way? It's like, okay, well, you know what? That. Let's look back at the document that. That documented the conversation that we had in the beginning. Something that. Because we need to know that we can, you know, all work together. And then you look at the document, you're like, ah, okay, this is how it says it's going to go. Are we following that? And if we're not, who's at fault? And how can we remedy that so that we're all happy working together? Nobody has any problems with any of this.

Okay.

Right up until the point that I send them a PDF that actually details it all and it says the word agreement at the top. And then. And I've run into this several times in the last year, few times over the course of the last 20 years, but far more so in the last year we've been bringing on more shows. So, you know, the free. The increased frequency of it is to be expected at some level. But I've had people tell me, several people that I don't think know each other and certainly I don't think have coordinated their messaging. Tell me. Oh, yeah, you know, I don't. We don't believe in contracts. It's like, well, and I've tried to, like, I called one of them at one point. I'm like, okay, okay, help me through this because I know you want to know how things work. I want to know how things work. Like, what's the, what's the hold up here?

Well, I think that. Is there a lot of times when people use the word contract, they, they feel like, okay, this is some binding thing where, you know, your use of the word agreement really just is. Is just that we are agreeing what it says.

It says agreement on it, not contract. Yeah, yeah.

And. And maybe that's where you have to go. Look, we don't want a contract that's going to bind you to us, and we don't want to be bound to you, but we need to have an agreement that just states we're going to do this and you're going to do that, and when we both do these things, this is going to happen.

That's it. That's it. And that's what the agreement says. I mean, it's really short. It's really like. And I've asked people, like, okay, what part of the agreement is the problem? Like, what have I put in there? That's not what you just described. Right. Like, where is the problem here? And no one can point to anything other than it abstractly. And really, it's. The signature line is sort of the problem.

Of course.

Right. Like that's, that's, it's the commitment.

Yeah. You have to make some kind of commitment that.

Yeah.

And I. And maybe you have to have that wording in there. It's like, look, this agreement simply states what each party is going to do. There is no time frame if you want to drop out at whatever. I mean, this kind of thing. And, and maybe, maybe, you know, do you send it to them, like as a PDF?

I do. And I'm wondering if I should, like, create an online form that was going.

To be my next thing. Is that you. I think it's friendlier if they can. Here, click this link and when you've read it at the bottom and you agree that this is how our. And I think the words are important when, you know, when you agree that this is how our relationship is going to work, click Agree.

That's it.

That's it.

That's it. That's it. Yeah.

I think that would make it friendlier.

Yes.

Because. And then. Because then you have an answer. It's like, well, we don't have a contract. We have an agreement that just says, I agree to do this, you agree to do that. And if they're not going to agree to that, that's probably not the customer for you.

No, it's not. But you know, I'll have them. Like every one of them has said, well, why don't we just like do some deals together and see how it goes? Like that's what we're gonna do. Like that's the plan.

But you need that. We need to agree that we're gonna do this. And maybe in the, that you, maybe in the first, you have to have kind of first one or two sentences in that agreement that really states that it makes them feel comfortable. Yeah, that like this is not a binding contract or some sort of effect that that alleviates their fear. It's like this is just a simple agreement that these are the services we're going to perform and these are the services you're going to.

This is how, this is the rules of the game.

This is how you're going to get paid.

Yeah.

This is how we're going to split the profits, that kind of thing. So it's just a framework for how our relationship is going to work.

Oh, relationship framework. That might be it. Yep. Yeah.

Because then, you know, they're just, oh, I don't want this big contract. Because then if I change my mind, whatever, it's fine if they change their mind as long as they, you haven't paid them for something they haven't done yet or, you know, it's like, hey.

Yeah, it's all non exclusive. I mean, we'd have some people that we've chosen after time to go exclusive with. But that's like, we used to get people like it used to be the norm in this business for the relationship to be fully exclusive, you know, all the way through. That's not the case anymore. But because it's non exclusive with some folks, we need to have an understanding on agreement about how we're going to communicate so that we're not both pitching the same show to the same sponsor, potential sponsor. Because then everyone loses. Right. Then we look like we're not coordinated. So. Okay. And every. When I have that conversation with people like, oh, yeah, of course, that makes sense. We don't want to waste time. Like, right, cool. So here's how that works and here's what we've agreed to and it's like, oh, yeah, no, no, gosh. And it's just, it's fascinating to me. And some of these, some of these are, you know, solopreneurs. Right. That and some of them are young and some of them are very established businesses. Like, it's just bizarre to me.

Yeah, well, I, I understand that if it's an established business because I've done lots of businesses with some really large companies that absolutely will not enter into any sort of agreement with you other than a discussion about, oh, yeah, we're going to do this, you're going to get this from us and we're going to do that. But they're like, we can't become bound to you at all because it's just too, with too much liability.

Yeah.

So I get that, how that might work. But yeah, I think if you, if you change how you're framing the wording, some of the terminology, that you could get the same thing, but they'll be more comfortable.

Yeah, yeah, I like it, I like it. It just, it needs to be packaged differently, I think is clearly the issue.

I like doing it on the web. I think it's a little more approachable.

It is.

They're used to it. What do you think, folks? Feedbackusinessshow.co. if you have a similar situation that you've solved or have any advice for Dave, here's your chance to help us out.

Yeah, I would love to hear about it. Whatever. Even if you haven't solved it, if you're, if you're listening to the show and, and sort of pounding on the dashboard saying, no, no, no, do it this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's what we want to hear about. So, yeah, for sure. Thanks, man. Yeah, this was good business therapy. Yeah, it's, it's crazy.

It's always easier to solve somebody else's problems.

Yeah, that's true. But, but, you know, in doing, I think love, that's what I love about business therapy here is it allows us to sort of, you know, objectively look at these problems. Right. Which is good. So, yeah, yeah.

And, and maybe some of our listeners need some business therapy so you can send your questions as well to feedbackusinessshow.co. the other thing I want to mention is please leave us a review. Go to businessshow co reviews and it'll take you right to where you can leave us a review. It really helps and we really appreciate those reviews coming in.

Absolutely. Yeah. It makes a big, big difference. So that's us for today. Thanks, folks. Have a, have a great week. Make sure you keep living that charmed life. Thanks to our sponsors, Lino.com SPS mint mobile.com SBS go.co SBS see you next time.