Interview with Kelan Raph of Optimum Supply Chain

The Small business show episode 213 for Wednesday, March 6, 2019. Greetings, folks, and welcome back to the Small Business Show. The show BFA Small Business here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton and out on the.

West coast, I am Shannon Jean. How are you, Dave?

I'm good, man. How are you?

Good, good. I'm fantastic. Keeping busy as usual.

That's a good thing, man. I always say that being busy is better than the alternative, and I have had occasions in my life to prove that to myself and it is actually quite true. So there you go.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. So, hey, today, as you know, if you've listened to the show before, you know that my background is in products and shipping them all the place, shipping them into me, shipping them all around. So lots of logistics. And we have a guest today that's come back on the show, one of my favorite logistics experts, Kellen Raff is with us and we're going to talk about, you know, how critical logistics are for your entire business and incoming and outgoing shipping, selling through FBA with Amazon and fulfillment services and lots of stuff. So I'm happy to have Kellen Rath back with us, logistics expert and presence of Optimum Supply Chain. Kellen, thank you for joining us again.

Thanks so much, Shannon. Great to talk to you again. And Dave as well. How's it going?

Yeah, it goes. Yeah. Thanks for coming back. It's almost been three years. It was show 62. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy.

Yeah.

Well, it's great that we're all still here talking.

I've listened to a bunch of your shows since then and me being in a small business myself, have gotten a lot of good advice there.

Well, thank you for saying that, man. That's, that's why we do what we do. And now you're. And you're a part of it. I was going to say now you're a part of it, but you've been a part of it. So it's. Yeah, no, it's awesome. It's a good family. We got. Yep.

Yeah, it works out great. We love doing it. So before we get into talking about some of the other topics in shipping and logistics, talk about your background a bit for our listeners and, you know, and share what services that you offer at Optimum Supply Chain, if you will.

Sure. Yeah. So I got back, I got involved in international supply chain back in college. I started working for DHL Express and once I graduated from college, moved to Asia, was doing a lot of manufacturing and sourcing there in Asia, supplying big box stores here in the US and was back and forth between California and Hong Kong far too much. So I ended up moving out there another time as well. Just really fell in love with international business and then started a ebay store back in 2001. It was pretty interesting early times. Direct to consumer. I was supporting some direct to consumer businesses through DHL Express in the early days as well and just really got a good bite of the bug of international and direct to consumer. That's actually how Shannon and I met is I was his sales rep for DHL Express and he was building his businesses and Mac, what was it? Macro Store.

Yeah, it was. Eventually became Irescue. But yeah, DHL was how we kind of got our foot in the door with all that, you know, local shipping.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. So I was with DHL until to kind of like slow down of 2007, 2008. I had finished my MBA and I thought, you know, I'm going to go out and create a consulting business that's going to help all of, you know, all of these marketplace shippers and sellers that really needed the expertise but weren't finding it from the logistics providers. So I started Optimum in 2008 and it's been a wild ride of supporting many cool products and brands since then. And so our primary service is in fulfillment and shipping services. We're managing a lot of imports from Asia by ocean and air freight as well as fulfillment, you know, receiving and warehousing and fulfillment of orders, B2B as well as direct to consumer. A lot of Amazon stuff these days, a lot of Walmart stuff, a lot of direct to QVC and home shopping and Bed Bath and beyond. Many other retailers too.

Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, it's a great story. I mean, I remember we've worked with each other on a bunch of different projects and your ad value has always been, hey, I can save you money. Because I know that there's, you know, inefficiencies in the supply chain that, that we can, you know, all save on. So that, that's, I've always appreciated that. That's cool.

Well, and that's, you know, for anybody looking to create a business like that, that's a great thing to look for is what are the inefficiencies that drive you crazy and then go help somebody else solve those and they'll pay you for it. Like it's, it's, it's perfect.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. What problem are you solving?

Yeah, what problem Are you solving? Yeah, yeah.

So the impetus for asking your back calendars. I was on LinkedIn a couple weeks ago, I guess, and I noticed your comments about some upcoming changes to the Amazon fba, the Fulfilled by Amazon program and how some of those changes were frustrating and I'm quoting frustrating marketplace sellers with eroding margins and unpredictable costs. And I thought, man, I've been exactly there. Especially in the technology business where our margins just kept getting thinner and thinner and then the unpredictability of your billing and what you're getting charged for on these marketplaces can just be a killer. So I'd love to hear some feedback on that and see where we can go with that topic.

Yeah, sure. Amazon has been fantastic for so many sellers. Just look at how many new sellers are on there each year. I think it's like 300,000 new sellers a year. Just absolutely amazing. And it's been a huge success for many companies, including my customers as well. But it's also been very, very tough with all the changing rules. So officially Amazon will say that they're going to change the rules like once a year, but when they do, there's not much notification of that, it's very secretive. And then when they do launch these new rules, there's not a lot of support for how to read the rules, how to adjust to these things. And selling and fulfilling on Amazon has been complicated, as is at any retailer. Working with any retailer, whether you're selling a wholesale to them or you're selling on a drop ship through target.com, things like that, there's always a lot of complexity and some landmines that you certainly need to stay away from. But what's happened with Amazon I think especially is that because it's such a big part of so many companies business these days, that small rule changes can really have a major impact on a company's not only like quarter or a certain item, but really the whole year. And I've seen a lot of really, really challenging situations from counterfeit items to return rates and just challenges that the sellers and the product brands were never expecting when they penciled it out of what their margins would be and things like that.

Yeah, that makes sense. I can attest to trying to stay current with Amazon and keeping up with the rule changes and keeping compliant can be very difficult. And then when you're, you have a problem and you're trying to resolve it, you often can be stymied by templated responses and kind of auto response. It can be really challenging to get To a human that can really help you figure out the problems.

Yeah. And there aren't a lot of solutions. Many times when they present you with something that's going to drastically change your margin and you look at it and you're like, what else can we do? You know, there might be other ways that you could get around that, but the fact of the matter is it's going to hurt your business.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So on that same topic, I mean, do you see, and you know, you're in the, in the market all the time and talking to these companies and trying to help them, are there companies that they go into, you know, the FBA program or similar program and are just like, okay, great, this is going to solve all our problems and it's going to be so awesome. We're going to have all these extra sales and then they kind of come. If they don't plan correctly, they can lift your regret it.

Yeah, many. You know, FBA is a fantastic solution to get into because you can just list the items, you know, ship it in there. Everything's taken care of. For a small business, especially somebody who's starting out on Amazon or starting out in a direct to consumer space, it's fantastic to have these integrated services. There's really been nothing like Amazon fba and that's one of the reasons why it's been so successful and one of the reasons Amazon's been so successful with their customer service is being able to control that fulfillment. It's still even common practice I see online sometimes. Oh, allow three to five days for us to ship your item and then you don't even know. It's obviously not on Amazon, it's on other sites. You don't even know when you're going to get it. And so Amazon's really the one who introduced that we're going to ship this the same day and you're going to get it within two days. And now it's even faster than that. The same day and next day. Yeah, right in the shopping cart for free.

So how, how far does. Because it sounds like, I mean on, on paper, this. And I'm asking this as someone that's never used fba, but you know, if I were getting into business, certainly on paper it sounds like, well, like this is fantastic. And then I'm hearing, well, it's not as fantastic as it is on paper, but at the moment it's still probably the best game in town. How long does it take until someone else steps in and actually starts competing with Amazon? In that realm or is that not even on the table at this point because of how ubiquitous Amazon has become? I mean is it just one of these things where as a small business you kind of have to take it and there's no other place to go or what's the answer there?

There definitely are options. FBA is super quick to just turn on and have it running and then you can kind of optimize later regarding different pricing and costs and what kind of inventory availability that you're going to provide and all that. Yet there are other services that are popping up because of the need. So FBA can't fulfill all of the demand. Especially you know, they don't want to handle non conveyable items, larger items. There are many, many product characteristics that would say don't have it shipped by fba, do seller fulfilled prime instead. And then because of just the volume of demand, there are third party logistics companies now that do offer these seller fulfilled prime services so you can locate your inventory at these other non Amazon FBA locations and be able to fulfill according to the requirements of Amazon. And so then it's kind of like the hybrid where you're not fulfilling yourself. And I don't recommend that the companies fulfill themselves. They would have to be of quite a larger size. And you definitely want to have multiple inventory locations around the US do that. Otherwise it's just going to be all air. But it depends, it depends on the margins that you have, it depends on your competition, what's the product size and things like that.

Sure.

But definitely there are new services coming out where you can have your, you know, your own FBA type of solution.

And that's whether you're selling on, you can still sell via Amazon or any of the other marketplaces and then use the third party logistics partner to fulfill the orders.

Yes, exactly. And that's what's the benefit of doing that in a third party is that you can leverage the same inventory item across multiple channels.

That seems like a huge. Yeah, that seems like such a smart thing to do. And not putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

Well, and also without having to put all your eggs in your own basket. I mean unless you, unless you are in the fulfillment business, you probably don't want to be in the fulfillment business. Right. That's a distraction from, you know, making, making and, and creating and selling your actual product. So yeah, that's, that sounds really smart. I like it. That's good.

Yeah, absolutely. Are one of our most common recommendations is do not try to do fulfillment yourself, unless there's some very long strategic purpose that you need to do this or if you're doing something locally. And that's great. But there are, you know, the scalability and, you know, the making costs variable rather than fixed, and getting out of the labor issues and all that stuff. It's so much better to have a third party doing it for you.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That does make sense.

Hey, guys, this is fantastic, and I want to get back to this, but first I want to take a break and talk about our first two sponsors, if that's okay with you, Shannon.

Yeah, sounds great, man.

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Okay, so I want to talk about a little more logistics, but I want to talk about your business as well. So that kind of analysis where you're looking at someone's supply chain in and out and that kind of thing, that that's the kind of services that you're offering. You would sit down with the company and kind of show them how perhaps a third party logistics, you know, program would make sense for them. Is that right?

Yeah, exactly. So what we focus on is on optimization of logistics. We take a look at what's the, you know, the existing business where the volumes are flowing, what carriers are being used, what modes are being used. We do a digital, you know, data assessment of, of that logistics supply chain and then we have many, many models of different solutions for doing cross border between countries, for doing warehousing and a third party fulfillment for using USPS to ship to a residence versus some of the other carriers, ground delivery with a residential surcharge, things like that. And we always find many cost reduction opportunities. So being able to get that same service at a lower cost or at a faster speed. So rather than shipping something two day air, what if we could ship it ground and it still arrived there within two days is one example. And then what if we could locate our inventory closer to our customer where instead of sending two day air we're now sending next day ground and that's where a big impact comes from. And then international as well. We're doing a lot of international fulfillment. So you know, maybe manufacturing a product in China, fulfilling traditionally through the US Then you've got a customer in Australia. Rather than shipping from your la inventory, why not have an inventory available from China or Hong Kong that can fulfill that Australia trade line? Then that same thing goes out to the whole, to the rest of the world, to every region where there are, where there are consumers of the product.

Yeah, that's great. That's a big deal. I mean a lot of times you know, the difference between making money on a product or losing money on it or is that, you know, being smart with your logistics. And unfortunately I can attest to that, you know, thinking, thinking that I mean I'm kind of a control freak and like to keep, you know, control of all the inventory and what happens with it and this, that and the other. But it's very expensive to fulfill all those orders by yourself. Very expensive and probably and, and it's just not as efficient and you're not as good at it as these folks that, you know, their whole reason for being in business is, is just that figuring out the most efficient ways to, to get products to your customers.

And that's why FBA has done so well and Amazon, you know, for it also is that they've taken the complexity out of that and then it gets shipped on their account and you know, there's some split of the cost there. But it really takes a very complex process of order management of fulfillment and returns and all of that stuff and makes it just kind of opt in.

Yeah, that's cool. Okay, so when we had you on the show back In April of 2016, you came on and you were talking about Grand Canal Solutions. That was episode 62. Give us a little global view of the difference with Grand Canal and Optimum and how they kind of intersect each other.

Yeah, sure. So Grand Canals is a shipping software that enables shipping managers to optimize their shipping with FedEx, UPS, USPS, DHL, mostly the small parcel services. We at Optimum actually created that software internally. We were using it, first rendition was in Excel and then we started breaking Excel and then moved over to SQL. And then that kind of wasn't fast enough. And so we substantiated it into a software and then spun it out as Grand Canals.

Got it. And so that's like a software as a service that a company would subscribe to to be able to manage that data.

Yeah, exactly. So it's to manage carrier performance, what's being delivered on time, what's early, what's late, things like that, which carriers are performing the best. Also to do rate management, making sure that you're getting billed correctly, making sure that you're getting the best rates possible for each of the different ship types that you have.

Nice.

And then into fulfillment visibility as well, to be able to see orders in real time and things.

That's great. It's really cool. Yeah, it sounds like it. And I know one of the things you taught that I learned from you and I've totally stolen because I always tell other people and they think I'm much smarter than I really am, is that the fees are often what kill you the most on the freight, the shipping to, especially in small parcel stuff where we would negotiate a great rate with the carrier, but then you get hit with these, you know, residential fee, out of the area, fee, unable to deliver fee, all this kind of stuff. And I can remember calling you, you know, being like, oh, yeah, we got to go back and knock these fees out because they're eating you alive. So I never forget that.

Yeah. And the common I remember with you as well, working with your carriers that, you know, I heard the same thing that I hear with most sales reps and they say, oh, those aren't negotiable.

Everything's negotiable. Yeah, of course they are.

And then that's when sort of the mistruths start happening, unfortunately. So the software that we have and the practice that we have really translate what the reality is. And we help our customers to get the best rates and best service from all of their shipping partners.

So to the UPS and FedEx guys and DHL, do they like when you walk in and they see you, you or one of your reps in there just kind of get sad looking because they know you're just going to beat them up and get better rates for the customer?

Yeah, you know, we don't, we don't go, we're not in that room that's good anymore. We're basically supporting our customers to do their own analysis and negotiation themselves. It works much better. The relationships that each business has really need to be managed themselves. You know, we don't get in and broker those things. We have some, you know, shipping services that our customers can avail of us. But yeah, for the negotiations, it's direct.

That makes sense. But you give them the data so they can back up there, hey, look, you know, this is what's happening and how do we fix it? Type thing.

Yeah, exactly. And then we catch the mistakes that are made in pricing as well, which it happens at least half the time. You know, the carrier will give you a new pricing proposal and they'll give you like a PowerPoint presentation that shows, you know, the savings and things like that. And their math is frankly wrong. That's a big part. And then once the pricing is actually put into effect, we'll do audit going forward and we'll find many, many times that that first week or first few weeks of a new pricing being put in place that the carrier actually programmed it incorrectly. We catch it all the time, unfortunately.

Okay, go ahead. I have a question here. No, this is very interesting. You're running a business obviously where you're helping people and hopefully creating more value for them than your services cost. Right. I mean, that's just like standard practice. Right. But what's interesting is when you said, no, you're there, like you don't get in the middle of those negotiations. And I agree with you. It's much better if your customer can have a direct relationship with the shipper because then they build that and there's some trust there and, and they're not one step removed by having you in the middle. So you're, it's just, but it's an interesting model and I think a smart one. But you know, anybody looking at that, any type of business where, you know, you could put yourself, you could hang your shingle as a broker, you've actually taken that and, and changed it, that you're hanging your shingle as a, essentially a consultant. Is that, Am I, am I sort of grokking that? Right?

Yeah, that's exactly correct. So we're doing advisory, we're providing intelligence and we're providing feedback and a partnership to our customer. And then they use that information and those tools that we afford them to make a better business.

That's great. Yeah, that's great. It's just a really smart way of going about business because you're, instead of limiting your customers, you're actually empowering your customers and chances are their businesses will grow better because of that. And then hopefully you thrive as a result of that too. So it's clear that this is not your first business. Right. Like you thought about this, it takes some iteration to get to this point. I think it's really just a smart lesson to learn.

Yeah, it's been fun supporting all these supply chains of cool products just over many, many years being involved in the planning and, and the execution of taking companies and really making, putting them on the map and making them successful.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's great.

For me, what I recall one of the most frustrating parts of it that you've kind of solved with your software and your service is the disconnect between what you're told and what you negotiate. And then what happens when the invoices start showing up in your accounting office and the accounting department doesn't have any idea what you should be paying. And I can remember looking at bills.

Going, well, this can't be right.

You know, we're quoting these things out. We were doing lots of flat rate shipping back at that time where we just said, hey, it's a flat X to get your laptop overnight. And we had built all that model around certain expectations and you know, way the numbers looked, but often it wouldn't work out that way. So, you know, having that exposure on the real data is I think critically important. That's great. So let me ask you a question I want to ask when I ask everybody this. What's one of the biggest challenges you have for your business for optimum and how do you guys overcome it? I mean, is it a sales thing? Is it getting your foot in the door? Is it making the connection and convincing them it's still going to work? I mean, what is that challenge that you face?

I would say it's awareness that once people find us and our practice and are able to wrap their heads around it a little bit, it's easy. After that, we provide a ton of value very quickly at a very low cost to many businesses because we are so specialized. And it's very easy for us to just say, oh yeah, here you can subscribe to this and there you go, you're running the selling part of it. Like if I were to go door to door and be pitching these services is super hard because there is a distrust. It's like, what? This is different. I don't really get it. Oh, my carrier said that I have the best rates in town or on the block or whatever. And so why would you be able to get something better for us? And it really comes down to just the tools that we have. We're just faster. It's not that we have more information than anybody else out there, it's just that we do this every day and we've collected all this information and we know the truth from Mistruth and we know which services are going to perform and we know which ones are going to be challenged. And so we continue to optimize our customers supply chains with those new solutions. So as soon as anything new comes out that's proven, then we'll be the first ones to bring it to our customer base and say, hey, we just launched this new type of service. Here's how it works. It'll match your business. If you're like this and that, that's great.

So, okay, so how do you, how do you get that to that awareness? How do you make them aware of what you're doing? Because I think that's a common problem a lot of people have with their businesses and say, well, it's such a great thing, but how do I get them to pay attention? What do you guys do to make yourself stand out?

That's a good question. At Grand Canals, what we did was we raised a series A fund. We raised about a little over $5 million. And a lot of it, not a majority, but a lot of it went to marketing. And that's really, really hard to do. That's kind of the traditional way of go to market is that you would say, you know, hey, we need to take this market, we need to get that awareness, let's go pay for it. And I think that that's what's been the challenge of a lot of Amazon sellers and other online retailers is that yes, they're selling and yes, they're growing, you know, top line revenue, but it's coming at the cost of margins and that they're, I would say most of the top 100 online retailers in America, I'll bet the majority of them are not even making a dollar. I mean they're losing money. And so it becomes a chase and a race. And it is a race to satisfy the customer. The customer will never be satisfied. And so this new retail apocalypse and all is very, very real. I think that many of the retailers in America have been just subsidizing their business to keep the lights on and to keep employees there. And there's a legacy, but the well is running dry on how much you can really subsidize loss.

Yeah, I would agree. And I always. You alluded to it, I think, in what you were just talking about. There's always somebody that's willing to. We joked around about willing to go out of business and sell it for less than. And you look at it and go, how can that work? It doesn't even make any sense. I know this market really well and I know they're not making any money. And then you see it, they go out of business. But then sure enough, there's somebody else that thinks they're going to come in and buy market share and they're going to sell it at a loss for a while. And there always seems to be enough of those people to subsidize it to the consumer. But maybe, maybe not as much. You know, maybe we're hitting a wall with, like you said, some of those retailers.

Yeah, there definitely is the real physical wall. Because if you're not willing to support the business with investment, then the end is near. You know, if you, if you do have some slowdown in the economy and it doesn't pencil out that this business is going, then the best thing to do is close it now. Right. I think that's another issue, is that there are so many businesses these days that are subsidized with venture capital that they don't have to make money. And so for the sake of disruption, they're coming in to win customer, to get experience, to grow the market share. But it's really hard to compete with. And that's what's happening now on Amazon too. I mean, so many customers who may be looking at Amazon, or, I'm sorry, sellers in Amazon, looking at fba, all the complexity here. Amazon could be their number one competitor in five years. We don't really know. We've seen it happen enough.

Sure, yeah. Amazon could be their number one competitor right now. I mean, like, depending on what they're selling and what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Between the private labeling and, you know, wanting to get in that. I mean, they're, they're looking at all the data and thinking, oh, that's a great market. We need to get into that. So that's always a Challenge. Okay, so I probably asked you this back on previous episode three years ago, but I'm going to ask you again. We all learn from our mistakes so much. I've made a ton of them. So it's always a tradition for me to ask what's one of the best mistakes that you've made with your business career that has taught you the most that you can share with us today?

That's good. I remember that question from the last time. I remember my answer as well and I think I can even follow that up. So I think what I answered at that time was I took my eyes off of the customer. We got very, very busy internally and we were focused on making software and just really more the tech of it and kind of lost visibility of the customers. And so what's been great is I left that business about a year and a half ago. I left my full time role there and basically said I'm going to go back directly to customers and I'm going to work as I was with Optimum before, where it was one customer, one supply chain at a time. And so that's been really fun to go back to really focusing on the customer. I've studied a lot of what Bezos preaches as well, about customer being number one. And it's all about this customer fantastic professional career as well, to be focused and caring about that customer and about their success. And then my business is therefore successful because of that.

Well, I've always said every business is the customer service business, but I've also, I don't know how often I've said it, but I've often thought how easy it is to want to do the work when your focus is on the customer. Like the work, you gotta do the hard work no matter what. But when you know you're helping someone, man, like, it just makes life so much easier. And you're not, there's no friction. You're just like, okay, what can I do to help you? Great, we will do that. You know, and off you go. Yeah. I think it's the simplest path to success and so many businesses overlook it, including me at times. Right. I mean, even though I know this and you know, you said the same thing happened to you, you get distracted by all the other stuff that comes up. It's like, no, no, no. Customer first, customer first. Yep, yep.

It makes it much easier to make decisions along the way as well. You get into consideration and you're like, oh, what should I do here? And you're like, well, what would my customer want me to do. It's really easy to say that.

It's really. Yeah. The answers present themselves. Yeah, yeah. It leaves a lot. Yeah. Yep, it's perfect.

Yeah. And you know, one of the things I wanted to mention too before we wrap things up is that, you know, you made a comment about expectations and satisfying the customer and a lot of what we see especially selling in different marketplaces. It's not that Amazon is necessarily, you know, being heavy handed to create all these rules or ebay or Target, whoever Walmart, wherever you're selling it is, that is the market that we are in. And they're like, okay, well if you want to be in this market, this is what's required. Required of you. I would argue that it makes your company more efficient. I think the bad part of that is these big marketplaces, they're not the best communicators and they don't stage it in time for you to make changes that may be required for that kind of thing.

That's been a big part of what's happening. The risk of planning if you're doing some strategy on a new product and new pricing and new labeling and all this stuff and then all of a sudden the rules change. It's like, you know, it's kind of like what they, what's happening with the US China trade war right now. It's like how can you possibly manage like these very large, complex long supply chains when you don't know if there's going to be a 25% duty or 100% duty? I mean that's ridiculously different.

It's insane. It really is.

Mostly now is that companies on Amazon and you know, like your customer base that's selling direct to consumer on all platforms is they're sort of doing it all. So it's like some items are fba, some are fulfilled by themselves, some, you know, and then really just set out that multi channel, multi strategy rather than relying on one. Because if you only rely on one and you don't control that channel, you could be turned off immediately. And I just saw yesterday on LinkedIn there was a bunch of hub, hub about 1p versus 3p. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that term. It's the, you know, you sell wholesale to Amazon and then they, they are the seller and they fulfill your item, you know, on their order or you do third party. And a bunch of wholesale sellers didn't receive their orders like they typically would on a Monday. It's like a clockwork.

They're purchase orders Right, Yeah, yeah.

They're purchase orders and so on. Yesterday there was a bunch like thousands of comments about this as well that people are like, oh, my God, is it, is it this the time? Is this when it's going to happen? You know, and so I can't imagine trying to run a business where you've got invent and you've got your paying factories and you're like moving this product, trying to make some small percentage, but then all of a sudden have a risk of major, major interruption.

Yeah, it's tough. That's crazy. Well, it sounds like people need a good partner like your company, Optimum Supply Chain, and some great software to help them make those decisions. So tell us, what's the best way for our listeners to learn more about Optimum and how to connect with you?

You connect with me on LinkedIn. I think that's the easiest way. You know, email is just way too much spam and all these days. So search me up on LinkedIn. It's K E L A N. The last name is Raf R A P as in Peter H. And we'll put.

A link to your LinkedIn profile in our show notes too. So people can always go to BusinessShow Co to find, to find out how to get in touch with you and also us. So it works out great.

Great.

Yeah, that's perfect. And what's the website for Optimum Supply Chain?

It's Optimum Sco for Supply chain optimization. So Optimum sco dot com.

Awesome, man. What's great, I always learn a lot when I talk to you and like I said, and I can steal lots of tidbits and make me sound smarter than I actually am. So I always appreciate that.

Well, thanks. It's been great having great customers like you as well.

That's cool. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the show, folks. If you have questions, feedbackusinessshow Co or come over to the Small Business support group on Facebook @businessshow Co Facebook. We would be glad to talk with you.

Indeed. Keep living that charmed life, folk, and folks, and we'll see you next week. Kellen, thanks for coming back on the show. It's been great to have you, man.

Thanks, David.