Leadership vs. Management – Can you be good at both?

The Small business show episode 364 for Wednesday, January 26, 2022. Greetings, folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co where we are small business ing every week here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.

And here in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you, man?

I'm doing good. Doing good. Getting over a little bit of COVID But, you know, that's all of us, at least around here. It certainly is. Yeah, it's. I mean, thankfully, it was effectively a non event, actually.

That's great.

I had symptoms weeks before I tested positive. So I don't even know if those symptoms. I have no idea. It's. The tests have been. For me, the tests have been weird. But I don't. I'm sure there's a logical explanation for it. I just don't have all the data, but I.

That sounds like a whole. You just encapsulated with that. I'm sure there's some explanation, but we don't have all the data.

Yeah.

That's like for the last two years.

Yeah. Correct. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm not an expert at this stuff.

No, nobody is.

Well, some people are, but that's not me. Yeah.

Right.

So, yeah, I'm all vaxxed and boostered and. And wound up testing positive and it was. It was. It was actually a surprise that we even bothered to test again and. Yeah. Anyway, it thankfully looks like everybody's okay and like all that important stuff is. Is all good. So. Yeah, it's.

That's great.

Fascinating.

This is the end game for us and.

Same. Same.

So we don't have to worry about it or talk about it anymore. I'd be very happy. I think like many of us, or hopefully all of us.

Yeah, man.

But cool. But onward to better things. Today we're talking.

Yeah.

Last episode was the last episode. We talked about leadership. You made a comment. Leadership versus management. The different skill sets.

Yes.

Things required. So we said, hey, you know, we should definitely do a show about this. And I want to ask the question.

Okay. I have a thing I want to do. Share though. Something that.

Yeah, let's do it.

I was pretty stoked about. I got an email from PayPal this week saying that PayPal Zettle now integrates with Woocommerce. And I thought, well, that sounds amazing. What is PayPal zettle zettle. I've never heard of this before, but I have heard of Woocommerce. It is. Right? It's. It's. I believe it's WordPress's own. I think they acquired. Yeah.

Yes.

And it's, it's, you know, essentially a first party point of sale e commerce platform that integrates with WordPress and, and we've used it at Macgeek Gab. It's what we've based our subscription engine on and it works great. It's super easy. So it was like, okay, wait, PayPal, WooCommerce. I'm already using PayPal with WooCommerce. What am I missing? This Zettle thing is a physical, in person point of sale solution that will take your credit card, your debit card, your NFC thing, all of that, and integrates with WooCommerce so you can track your inventory for your online store and your in person store in the same place and all your sales and all of that good stuff happening at the same time. And I know I'm talking like they're a sponsor for this episode. They are not.

You just got that built in. That's your sponsor voice.

When I get excited about something, I talk about it. So maybe this is a good indicator that I'm usually excited about our sponsors.

Yes.

Because it's a good thing. Yeah. But I am stoked about this.

Confused. So I thought that PayPal had that capability. Well, maybe not built into Woocommerce store.

That's the difference is that this. Now they've built the hooks so that their in person thing that they call Zettle now works with your Woocommerce store. So you have all of your inventory and product data and all that. I mean, they say that it's synced. It's not even synced. It's just like the same. Which is great.

Interesting. Yeah, no, it is great. And you know, you're talking to somebody who still remembers the agony that it was at one time to build a credit card solution into an E commerce platform or even just get approved.

I was just gonna say big banks.

To take credit cards.

I was talking to one of my bankers earlier today. We just had a, you know, a quarterly check in call that they like to do to make sure they keep our business and you know, don't lose us to some other bank. And they were asking, well, do you take credit cards or this? And the other thing, I'm like, well, not with this business, but with another one I do. And they were asking me what I use to take credit cards, which I use Stripe with this other business to do it because it works great. And I said, but 20 years ago I had to get a merchant account and I Had to work with authorized net, by the way.

Authorize.net criminals.

They are criminals.

I assume they're all in prison now, right?

If there's any justice in the world, that is the case. Stay far, far away from offline.

Only game in town. Only game in town.

Back then, back then, it was the only way. Like first you had to convince your bank to give you a merchant account, which when you were running an online business was a huge ordeal, like massive ordeal. And then you had to go sign your life away with Authorized net. God, they were such terrible people. And getting out of business with them, they tried to like, hit me up for all these cancellation fees and all this other stuff. It was like, you're never going to get that from me. It's not going to happen.

Brutal. Oh, they were all the Wild west days of. Yeah, well, it wasn't the Wild West. It was really central control. More like the, you know, some Soviet style.

Yeah, yeah. Now it's the Wild West. Anybody?

Yeah, you take any. You know, there's just a myriad of different choices and there seems to be new, you know, Zettle and Zell and Venmo and Stripe and. Yeah, this and that. And so, you know, it's an interesting. I mean, I, I've said this all the time. There's never been an easier time in our society to start a business and to get paid for something. Yeah, you name it, you name it. You know, whether it's. We've had and all the people that we've talked to on the show over the years from, from dog walking, you know, companies to. I think it was paddle.

Right.

Don't they. They have another, you know, payment processing in the back end type thing. I mean, it's just, there's just a million opportunities out there and a ton of great ways to get it done.

While we're talking about this, I want to share something that I still. A correction to something I still encounter all the time, and that is businesses who choose not to take American Express because they are under the impression that American Express costs them more. I'm a crazy person. And so when we had our own merchant account, we had to pick which card processors we worked with. So Visa and MasterCard were tied together. That was one with the way we did it. Amex was another. And then Discover and Diners Club, I think. Yeah, were the ones, or Diners Card or whatever it is. And we worked with them all. And I would look each month at what the fees looked like. And it's super confusing. Intentionally so that you have no idea what you're actually paying. And with Visa and MasterCard, the discount rate, which is just the percentage that you pay. So I'm not sure why it's a discount rate because you actually.

It's their market propaganda.

Yes, propaganda is right. It's a lie. Yeah. Yep. But the discount rate was much lower than amex. Let's say it was. And I'm pulling at numbers and they wouldn't be relevant anymore anyway, but let's say it was, you know, 1.8% that I was paying for Visa and MasterCard and 2.9 or 3% that I was paying for Amex. Right. So a significant difference.

Yeah, somewhere around there, sure.

You know, a point or more difference. However, the 3. Whatever percent that I paid to Amex was the grand sum total of what my fees were with Amex, no matter what, when I was paying MasterCard and Visa.

Interesting.

My fees were whatever, 1.8% plus any card that was a rewards card, they charged me to buy those rewards for my customers. And every single time, it came out to be more than the 3% that I was paying to Amex. And so Amex turned out to be our least expensive card because most of what we were doing was B2B. And most businesses that are going to charge stuff to a credit card have figured out that they can do really well. Charmed Life. They want their points, their hotel points, their air travel, their cash back, whatever it is. And so I would pay for that. And, and so we would encourage people to pay with Amex. And they, at first they thought we were crazy. And I explained, I would explain it because I happily do. It's what we do, you know, and that started long before this show. And, and then they would look at their own stuff and say, oh, that's amazing. And so it drives me crazy when I talk to a business and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, like the Chinese restaurant down the street from me, love them. They only take MasterCard and Visa and Discover. They don't take Amex. And I've tried to point out to them, like, you're probably leaving money on the table, but, you know, they don't really care. So I pay with my MasterCard because I love their. Sure, it's fine. But. But just make sure, do your own math, right? Like, it's easy to do if you're willing to sit down and, you know, extract the numbers from that super confusing report that they send you that's not laid out well.

But yeah, I would argue most, most business Owners don't even look at that. No, just it just comes in and it like, it's purposely, it's like the cell phone bills and different fees and carrier this and that and tax and this and that. You know, we very, very similar. I mean, I, I switched to mint. My whole family, we switched to mint.

Same.

And man, it's just like, hey, this is the fee. There's or this is the charge. There's no other fees. This is. Right, it's 20. It's 20 bucks for X number of gigs and that's it. That's it. And that. It's a great opportunity. And so I love to see all these different, you know, payment options and different things. So you're not stuck with one, you know, giant company that's squeezing you.

It's just squeezing you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So I, I know I took us on a little bit of a detour, but I, I hope it's value. I hope this zettle thing with WooCommerce is valuable for somebody out there. I, I, it's, I don't know. I've always avoided in person, you know, inventory and all that stuff. So it doesn't matter for me. Yeah.

And I think the one thing I would say maybe the most important takeaway, at least in my experience here on these payment platforms, is do not become beholden to just one.

Right.

Because you never know what's going to happen or what policy might somebody's going to drop one day. Correct. So you always want to have, you know, when we were forced to use authorized.net, we also used PayPal and eventually, you know, got rid of authorized.net and then just moved over and had PayPal do all our merchant services for a while until we went to another solution. So having multiple platforms is really important for the stability of your business.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I like it.

Definitely.

All right, let's talk about leadership versus management. I have a place I'd like to start with this.

Let's do it.

I found a chart. It's written, it's a little tongue in cheek. I'll put it in the show notes. It's written with Ramses and Moses as your, you know, Ramses being the manager, Moses being the leader, managers and, but they've simplified a few things. And so I want to read through them quickly here because they're all like shorter than a sentence. So it says what managers do is a manager is a member of an organization with responsibilities. And what leaders do. Leaders don't necessarily hold or occupy a management Position. The traits of a manager, the ability to execute a vision. The ability to direct process management and are people focused. The traits of a leader, the ability to create a vision that's different from execute. Honesty and integrity. Inspiration and communication skills. A leader builds a new order. A manager organizes. A leader inspires trust. A manager relies on control. A leader asks what and why. A manager asks how and when.

I like it.

So I think it's a. That's a good frame for all true statements. I think I agree with most of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that I heard a good quote and you know, leadership is about inspiring and management is about planning. And I do agree with those things. But I also like kind of the subheading to this episode is going to be can you be good at both? And I really do believe you can. But there's some caveats there.

The one thing I would throw into this that I haven't seen in any of the things, and maybe it's because my own definition of leader is Skewed, which is 100% possible, is that I think leadership is about action. And I don't. But so is management, but it's different action. To me, leadership is about paving a path and then letting people choose whether or not they want to follow you. Management. And maybe this is. Again, this is just with Dave's glasses on.

Yeah, sure.

Right. To me, leadership is. I'm going to go and create a thing and you all should come with me if you want. Management is. Y' all should go create this thing and let me direct you in how to go do that.

Hmm, interesting.

And again, all of this is an oversimplification, of course, but. Well, I think these things miss this action part of a leader. And I think that's the. To me, at least that's how I've been able to inspire people is. Is by doing a thing and showing people this is possible.

Well, it's no surprise that you focus on actions since we talk about it so much. I know, and I will read the paragraph in my notes here that is almost the same. As I research this and looking into different things and definitions. Many people in publications, they kind of define the leaders that they just think about ideas. And I completely disagree totally. The best leaders are action oriented by thinking beyond the idea and always including the actions that are going to be required to achieve it. So implementation is the critical point. You know, you're not a leader if you just sit and live living in the world of ideas.

No. With a cigar in your mouth and your Feet on the desk, you're not getting stuff done.

No way. No.

Who are you leading? Yeah.

And I wonder if it's because of our, you know, our focus on small business, you know, bootstrap action kind of things. I wonder if that is more of a trait of a, you know, organic, grassroots kind of small business owner than it is of some maybe, and I'm going to say this in a certain way, and I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but some, you know, big corporate or venture funded type leader that doesn't really kind of walks around and just says, hey, just get it done.

Yeah, right.

I want this done. This is going to happen. You got to figure it out. And I don't know that kind of leadership. So I will, you know, check myself and say, well, that maybe that's just the way that's done there.

Sure.

And they have super talent, people that implement those things. But to your point, action and discussing the implementation of things has always been a critical part of my leadership in our various businesses.

Yeah. And when I said last week that I think I'm a much better leader than a manager, it was with these definitions in mind that I really, truly am much better at showing people that things are possible and then inspiring, hopefully inspiring them to do those things too and asking questions. And I'm happy to share the knowledge that I have and than that I've figured out and we can figure it out together and all of that stuff. That's, that's my style of getting things done with people where, whereas, you know, I, other people that I've worked with are much better managers than me, where they can sit and come up with an idea and then before even starting on it, chop it up into, okay, well, in order to get this done, you do this, you do that, you do this and in the end we'll put it all together and magic happens. Right. And I'm not like, I don't want to dismiss the value of being a good manager. I would love to be a good manager. I just am not yet.

Well, I would disagree a little bit in the sense that you are managing that when you're chopping things up and coming to figuring things out and how to get that, you are managing that. You're not managing a string of people to get it done. You're possibly working with one person said, okay, look, this is the concept, this is what we're going to do, here's how it's going to work and then develop, working with them. But you're Also bringing that you're marrying the vision and the data, right?

Yes.

I think leaders use emotion and vision more and managers use data right. More. I just think that's kind of in each of their wheelhouses.

Okay, sure. Again, oversimplifying over for the sake of my life. Yeah, no, no, it's what we should be doing.

Yeah, yeah. But you can marry the two together. And I think that perhaps answers the question is, can you be good at both? Is that I think the best small business owners, the most successful small business owners are also good managers with just enough skill in management skill to inspire these kind of the other kind of people that are really going to go and implement the daily grind, the day to day that has to get done. But you're going to discuss it far beyond just this idea and this concept. Hey, we're going into business X and I'm going to secure whatever, a bunch of money and you're going to figure out how to do it. I don't think that's the small business model that's successful. I think that it's the former.

Yeah. I think, and I think again going back to the catalyst for this, when I said I'm a better leader than a manager. I'm a control freak. We've talked about this many times on the show. How to address this. But I am not delegating things is not my default.

Maybe that's you're only a control freak if it doesn't get done.

I don't know. I think I've had employees who would disagree with that, that we've gotten things done.

Yeah. You can argue that maybe it didn't get done the way you thought it should be done. I understand that. But I feel the same way. I would happily delegate and get hey, take it and run. But I often, even to this day when I okay, here's a list of things. And then when you don't see things getting done or maybe on a timeframe.

Yeah.

You get frustrated and you start reaching out and micromanaging. Right? I do.

I either micromanage or I just go do it myself. And, and I know neither one of those is good, but I don't know how to be productive. I have yet to learn. I don't want to make it sound like this is impossible. This is certainly a shortcoming of mine. I have yet to learn how to manage effectively such that I don't have to micromanage or just step in and do it myself.

Yeah, and I'll play the contrarian here. I don't know that that's a bad way to do it. I think that. I don't know. I don't know.

I'm not saying it's bad. I've had great success.

It gets stuff done, man.

And it leads people again back to leader versus manager. It leads people and shows them, okay, look, I did it. You know, this is how to do it. Now, next time you do this, you.

Know, but you have to be careful. If you like, I get the micromanaging where you step back in because stuff's not getting done. And I do that all too often. I have to. I feel I have to do that. But the stepping into doing it yourself, I think you really have to finesse that to not demotivate a person that you maybe. We don't know if they're struggling with something or they don't understand something. So I think a good way to do it is to provide an example in not do the actual thing you want done. But, like, for example, and I know they don't listen to this show, so I can talk about this. I'm working with a nonprofit, a group of people, and I'm teaching them how to do some stuff in the. On the web and the back end. And I sent them all some training things. I recorded some. Some screen movies so they could follow me along to do these certain things. And now I'm waiting for them to take these tutorials and go start. And if I don't hear back that they've started and that they're doing these things, probably by Friday, I'm going to go do it. But I'm going to create just some generic examples. And it's going to hopefully not step on their toes because I ultimately want them to have control of these specific areas of this organization. But if they see an example, like, say, look, hey, I wanted to put this up there. Here's how you did this. And these are folks that have never really worked on the web before. So it's like, hey, here's how you upload a photo, here's how you create a post. Here's how you do this. And I could prompt them to do it, to get it done. In other words, I'm being nice, but I'm like, hey, it's been a week. I thought you would have had these things done by now or the process. You never came back to me with any questions. Here's another example of how to do it. And I'm hoping that I don't step in and go, hey, I just did all your work for you and get them pissed off at me or demotivated. I don't know if that makes any sense.

No, it does. I always try to encapsulate our thoughts to put them in the show notes when there's something important. And what I just wrote here was solve your micromanagement by showing a similar example instead of doing the task yourself. Yeah, there you go. I like that. No, this is great. Now as we're having this conversation, I'm realizing I hire people that fit the way I do things. Okay. And so, like, there are people. Like your example is a classic one. It's perfect, right? Because, you know, there are people that will happily take a back seat for whatever reason. We don't need to get into the psychology of it. Right? Yeah, but there's people who will happily take a backseat or perhaps unhappily, but will take the backseat. Let me take happily out of it. There are people who take the backseat. If you are going to come in and sort of dominate the scenario and just do the work for them, that's fine for me once. But if the next time comes around and you're sitting there not quite getting it done and I have to come in and do the work for you again without you at least taking some step forward and failing, like failure is okay.

Oh, yeah, of course, of course.

But if you're not willing to take the step and risk failure, then you gotta go. I mean, like. Because you just don't fit with the way I do things.

Yeah, that's right. I agree.

It's just how it be, you know.

And it should be. It should be a give and take. Especially if they're. If you're paying somebody and they're working for you to get. To get this stuff done. And I think as I. If you listen back to the show, the phrase I always use is managers. I mean, I'm always like, hey, if you have to fire somebody, it's a failure of management because you either hired the wrong person or you didn't train them the right way. So I find I use that.

I agree with that. Yeah, yeah.

But I use the term manager, and I think of myself as a manager much more than a leader. But looking at all this stuff, I think you just have to do both. And I think it's harder to learn to be a leader than it is. Well, I don't know.

From my perspective.

Let me back myself up before I insert my foot. From my perspective, it's harder to teach leadership than it is management because there's a lot of things about leadership that some managers or just employees and people are just not comfortable with.

I guess that's true.

I want to give you a couple of examples.

Yeah. No, I agree with you. I have not put in, clearly not enough effort to get to the point where I feel like I'm a good manager. And I think I could find some employees of mine that would agree with that. Yeah.

That's a lifelong journey. Right.

Yeah.

One of the big things. I think I have found that managers or supervisors or just employees that you're trying to move into leadership positions have trouble with. And I'm going to say this as gently as I can. Lots of people are not. You have to be comfortable as a leader, managing the truth.

Ooh.

That's a really important skill.

Yeah. I'm terrible at it because I tell people too much. Right. Yeah.

I'm not saying you have to be comfortable lying. Oh, no, no, no, no.

I overshare. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

You have to learn to be. To be a good leader, you have to be a good manager of truth because there are lots of truths about your business that if you told everybody that worked for you, they would freak out.

Oh, yeah. If you. I've at least learned not to tell people when. When things are on the rocks. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Well, of course. But even when things are super good, you still have to manage it because then everybody thinks a certain way.

Yeah. Oh, we all getting raises.

I've fallen in that hole, too.

Same. So. Yeah.

Yeah. And I also think you have to be sometimes as a leader and you're persuading people constantly. Right. You're trying to motivate them, find out what their currency is. Beyond curr. You have to be comfortable using, you know, hyperbole.

Right. Yes.

And in some way. So. And that comes down to. There's a lot of. Those are the two things I've seen people have the most trouble with in trying to bring them up. And to be a leader of a department of a business or whatever it is is. Can they grasp those. The nuances in those things are really. Can be challenging.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess so.

I think so.

Yeah. I think you have learned. I think you and I are both natural leaders instead of natural managers.

Yes. I would agree.

However.

Or.

In addition, I think you have spent more time learning to be a better manager than I have.

Maybe just from being in. Physically in an organization and walking around.

Yeah. Sort of by. Just by necessity, the nature of the business. Yeah. But. Yeah. Yeah. Not even by necessity, just by. By the. As a Byproduct of what you created. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And, you know, if you go back and you read the E. Myth, which is a book we, you know, really think is required reading, and they, they, you know, one of the first exercises they have you do is create this org chart of your business and you put your name in every single thing, especially if you're employee number one.

And of. Of one.

Yes, of one. And as you bring people on, you know, you're replacing those kinds of things. So that helps, I think, helps you learn to be a manager because you've done those jobs and it's easier than if you just, okay, I got some money, I went out, got a loan, and I went and hired, you know, ABC and I plugged them into here. Well, if you haven't done those roles before, I think it's harder, and that's just my experience. But if you can put yourself in their shoes, I think it makes it easier to manage those roles.

Yeah, yeah, no, of course. Yeah. Knowing what people. Yes. And I, I think, at least in my own head, that is the difference between manager and leader. Is as a leader, the best way I can teach someone is by learning it myself, doing it myself, and then showing. And to me, that's leading. Right. Like, I'm gonna go and pave the path and then you can walk the path that I've paved. That's totally fine. Like, I'm okay with that. Whereas. And maybe this is just my pie in the sky definition, but, you know, a manager can get people to do a job that they cannot do themselves. And again, that's not a negative. That's a good thing.

No, no, no, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's a fascinating topic and I would love to hear what people think. Feedbackusinessshow.co I do have just a few little things that I think are important skills for leaders and managers that they share.

Great.

That I want to kind of wrap things up with here because I think it's critically important.

Yeah, man, go.

The first one, of course, has three parts, but the first one is having being accountable and building trust and credibility are just the essence of getting people to follow you, to believe in your vision. If you're a leader and also as a manager, if, if you're not accountable, if you're say you're going to do things and you don't do them, or you're going to provide support for them and you don't do it, or even.

If you're late to a meeting or late Regularly, occasionally. I mean, once, it's fine. But you know. Yeah, yeah. If you're, if you're unrelen reliable, that's not going to build trust and credibility. I know it's obvious when I say it out loud, but you'd be surprised.

I read a book one time with a phrase and I've said it here before. It's, you know, when you want to compliment, you look out the window. When you want to criticize, you look in the mirror. Well, that's a great way to learn to build accountability, credibility and trust because you're just, you really focus on yourself first and people get that. They pick up on it. You don't have to make it known, they just get it.

They know. Yeah. If you're working on yourself and that I think that's another part of it is, okay, let's say you are one of these harebrained leaders that shows up and I may or may not have personal experience with this, that shows up late for meetings on a regular basis or something. Right. Okay. So the staff knows this is habitual. It's fine. You show up to a meeting on time and say, look, I realize I've showed up late the past couple of weeks. I apologize for that. I could give you the reasons, but it doesn't matter. It's inexcusable. I've been late, I'm working on it. I'm going to fix this. And then you show up on time. Yeah. Then you do it. Right. Now that honestly probably builds more trust than just showing up at every meeting on time from day one. Because you've shown people, I'm willing to admit that I'm not perfect either. And now I'm fixing it because I care. Right. And that that's going to really help build that trust. Now, I don't mean to suggest that any of us should sandbag. Right. Like.

No, no, no, no.

We all have things that we should work on. So find those and actually work on them. Right. And just acknowledge it. Yeah.

Acknowledge it.

Yeah. Be transparent. Yeah, exactly.

The next one for me is communication. As managers and leaders. Just consider that every single employee has a tape recorder in their pocket and every time you say something, they're going to remember it forever. So if you make some off the cuff remark that something's going to happen or we're working on this, or once we, once we get this done, we're going to do X, well, you better follow through with it and better communicate in an effective manner about possibilities versus, you know, for sure this is Going to be this way because you'll get it brought back to you over and over and over. So communication skills, I think, are very important.

I will say this. Take your employee, and if you don't have any employees, create one in your mind. Take the employee who is the worst at remembering to do anything. Okay. Got them in your mind. Great. Now envision yourself saying something stupid or wrong. That person, the one that can't remember to even show up on time. They are going to remember it for the rest of their natural lives, and they will repeat it to you every time you tell them that they're late or for God, or whatever it is. Yep.

You said we were getting X.

You got it. Yeah.

Just remember that. Just remember that. Yeah. Sometimes you have to just keep your mouth shut. That's good communication, too.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the last couple things. One is learning to be a good listener. Read the room. You know, you can't walk in strutting around on top of the world if they're struggling in a certain department over some tasks. You got to kind of understand what's going on so you can, you know, adjust your personality, if you will, to make sure you're on the same side as them. You can't. You really got to learn to read the room. And then I think learning how to be a persuader. We talk about persuasion on this show all the time in a very positive way, not in a manipulative way. Learning persuasion skills can serve you in so many good ways. Your managers, if you're leaders, give your managers books about persuasion. If you're a leader, you know, go take a course. You know, I think that, you know, learning persuasion can help you in so many aspects of your life. Not just your business career, but your personal life as well.

Yeah.

And just learn about the words you use, how you say them, how you get to where you want to be.

Just find somebody who is an expert at NLP and get them on the show.

Sounds great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's great.

Yeah. All right.

Well, those are. Those are my. Take that. You know, again, we'll put a couple of. Well, there's a bunch of links in the show notes at businessshow co. You'll find them there. I put a couple links to, you know, Harvard Business School. Their online management courses are great. Their leadership courses are great. Very good. I highly recommend you teach management skills to people that you think have potential. Don't just expect that, you know, like the Peter Principle. You're just going to keep Advancing them until they get to a place where they suck. And you got to help them along the way, and you've got to plan it over time and see if they'll even follow through. Hey, I'd like you to take this course, supervisory course or something and see if they sign up. Tell them you'll pay for it online, whatever. See if they'll go. See if they follow through it. Okay. That's a test. And they'll learn something and then go to the next route. So as leaders, it's up to us to help train and, you know, create good managers.

I agree. I think this is great, man. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. As leaders, we have to help create good managers.

Always, right?

No, like, that's huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good stuff. Some good.

Easier said than done. Yeah.

Yes, it is. All of this is easier to talk about.

Oh, yeah.

Actually get done.

Yeah.

That's why Dave and I are talking about it.

Yeah. That's why it's nice to hole up in the podcast studio and say all these things, because it means that at least for 37 minutes, we don't actually have to be doing them. So there you go.

But, yeah, share your leadership and management tips, tips and skill sets with us at feedbackusinessshow.co. we'd love to hear from you.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening, folks. Make sure you check us out@businessshow.co Facebook, join the small business support group and share what you're up to. We'd love to hear from you. Keep living that charmed life, huh?

See you next week.