Lloyd Chapman - Founder American Small Business League

Hey, Dave, I'm really excited about the guest today. It's someone different than a different type of person that we've ever had on the show before.

I think that's the understatement of the year, my friend. Yeah, the year is young, but still.

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to, I mean, this guy's got a cause that he's been fighting for for 20 plus years and had some great success fighting this battle. And we're going to try to drill down and see answer the question, if you will, what can we do to help fight this battle to help small businesses all over the country?

Yeah, I like it. That's, that's, that's what it's all about, man. That's. Yeah, that's what this episode is all about.

It is, yeah, yeah, got it.

I'm, I'm.

If you're ready, I'm ready to small business. Ready to go.

I'm ready to small business, man. That is Shannon Jean, this is Dave Hamilton and this is small business show 3:17.

Dave, you know, like we always talk about, especially I always, I really feel strongly that small business owners are just kind of on the front lines, you know, fighting battles just to survive, find success, especially in this last year and also to get their voices heard, you know, and I've mentioned a few times on the show, I always get frustrated when large companies seem to get special treatment or exemptions from laws and they have resources to kind of pressure politicians and things that us little guys don't. And thankfully there are groups and individuals that are passionate about helping those small businesses out. And we have one of those gentlemen here today. I'm excited to have the founder and president of the American Small Business League on the show with us, Lloyd and the asbl. These guys are just tireless champions of promoting and protecting small businesses, exposing problems with and impacting change when it comes to small business owners and government contract allocations. Lloyd, I'm really happy to have you here. Thanks for joining us today.

Well, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Yeah, we're excited. So talk about a little bit. You know, as I mentioned before we started recording the show, the more I kind of looked into, I was like, man, the depth of your background and asbl, it's impressive. What prompted you to start, you know, the Small Business League back in, you know, all the way back in 2002.

Fear.

That's a great answer.

Yeah.

We often say on this show to avoid fear based decisions, but this one, I think we're gonna, we're gonna have the exception that proves the rules. So there you go.

We were losing. I worked for a small IT firm in Nevada, California, and we were losing. Federal small business set aside contracts. Now a small business set aside contract is a special program where they only bid things out to small businesses. We were losing thousand dollars. Small business set aside contracts to a company in Amsterdam that had 26,000 employees around the world in 28 countries. And one night I was walking out the door, I saw a computer that was still on. And I went down there and just thought I would look at the Small Business Administration's database of small business. It was called pronet. And I found thousands of the biggest companies on earth in the SBA's database of small businesses. And I called everybody on the planet I could think of. Finally, the Government Accountability Office returned my call. I sent them all this information and they launched a six month investigation. And they found 5,300 and something large businesses in the government's database of small businesses. There was a congressional investigation, there was a hearing. I testified before Congress. Associated Press wrote a story about it. Larry Marcusek from Associated Press. It ran all across the country. And I thought that that was the end of it. I was wrong. The problem is worse today than it was. And that was. Gosh, that was 2,000, I think.

Wow.

Yeah, 2,000. So yeah, that was 21 years ago. It's worse today than it was 21 years ago.

Wow. So these large, large companies were basically gaming the system to get access to these contracts that were supposed to go to small businesses. Is that right?

Well, I would say that the federal government, I want to say the word conspired because it's illegal with the big businesses to hijack the small business contracts. And it was a win win situation that allowed Fortune 500 firms to land hundreds of billions in federal contracts. And it allowed the federal government to fabricate compliance with the congressionally mandated 23% small business contracting goal. So it was a win win.

Why didn't they want to give these to small businesses? Was it just more work on their end so they could just kind of give it to their buddies that they knew?

Well, you know, there's a lot of reasons. My father was a contracting officer for the Air Force when I was younger. And in the government there's kind of a. Oh, gosh, I want to call it almost like racism. There's like an anti small business sentiment throughout the covenant with government contractors. They don't like the fact that there's a federal Law that requires them to work with small businesses, and they're just sort of a bias against small businesses. Also, if you're. If you're a federal contracting officer, what you want to do is do your 20 years and then retire and go to work for some big government contractor.

Ah.

And that's, you know, so they want to give those contracts to companies that they can, you know, go to work for and then retire after, you know, 20 years there. Right.

I mean, it's like, I'm not okay with it, but it doesn't surprise me. And it makes sense. Right. Like, the system is set up a certain way and there's people in the system. And as soon as you put human nature inside of those people and look at the way that the system is set up, of course this is what's going to happen. Yeah, like. Like I said, I'm not. I'm certainly not in support of it, but I'm not shocked exactly. Yeah. It's just how it goes.

You know, I think people. Here's some. Throw some numbers that might surprise your listeners. The first one, the Small Business act that mandates that 23% of all federal contracts go to small businesses. That's the largest economic stimulus program in history. Nothing has ever come close to that for the American people. Right. Under the Troubled Asset Relief program, they allocated 1 billion of small businesses. Under the American Reinvestment Recovery act, they allocated 2 billion. If the federal government were to give small businesses 23%, it would be over 350 billion a year. It would slash unemployment and double the number of net new jobs that are created in America every year. But they're just not doing it. They're just not doing it.

It's better to fuel that money right into middle management, where it goes to die. Right.

Yeah. Well, here's some other numbers I'll tell your listeners. Over 89% of all companies in America have less than 20 employees. And those companies are responsible for over 97% of the net new jobs in America. So small business responsible for half the gross domestic product, half the private sector workforce, and over 90% of all US exports. So small businesses are the engine of our nation's economy, not Fortune 500 firms. Now, here's another number that'll shock.

You're preaching to the choir here. Lawyer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fortune 500 firms haven't created one net new job in over 40 years. And many of them that are major government contractors pay no federal income tax. So based upon all the data that I can obtain and the smartest lawyers that I can find that are familiar with the federal contracting law. 97% of all federal spending goes to less than 1% of U.S. firms today. That's happening right now.

Maybe this helps to explain why, but I have a question. How difficult. I'm a small business owner. Let's say whatever service I provide is something that would fit into what the federal government needs. And so how difficult is it both for. For me and for my handler in the government on that side? How difficult is it for us to onboard my small company as a federal contractor so that I can begin providing this service versus already going to a Fortune 100 company that's already got a contract with the federal government, and there's no friction? So what does that friction look like for Dave that doesn't have a contract?

Well, you can go to fbo.gov it's a website, fbo.gov and that's. That's all the goods and services government is purchasing. Plus, you can call, you know, the sba. They should help you. That's their job. That's why they're there.

No, I mean, like, how. What's the. What's the time frame of. Okay, so, like, let's say they picked me, right? Somehow I made it. I ran the gauntlet. I made it to the other side. Now they've picked me. What, if anything, maybe there's not a huge process, but I'm assuming there is. What's the process like to turn me into a vendor and approve me as a vendor for the federal government once they've already decided to work for me? Because I've dealt with this with large companies where it's a big pain in the butt to get in their system so that they can then work with me. Is that difficult with the government, too, or am I making the wrong assumption?

You know what? It is, and I'll have to say that's by design. I'll say that. Absolutely. So the federal government tries to put as many obstacles as they can to make it hard for small businesses to get contracts. This is going to sound surprising to people. Before I tell you this, let me just say this. I'm 71. I've won 110 lawsuits against the federal government for over 32 years. My win ratio was 98.5%. The United States government is viciously anti small business. Viciously anti small business. There are over 30 million small businesses in this country. They're the heart of the nation's economy. And there's one agency to help those companies. It's The Small Business Administration, that agency has essentially been closed. That agency's budget today is $700 million. When Reagan was president, I think it was 2 billion. So with normal inflation today, the SB budget should be 4 billion DOL. It's 700 million. You can't run a federal agency on $700 million. Let's think of it this way. 99% of all U.S. firms have less than 500 employees. Only 1% have more than 500 employees. So the agency that helps that 1% is the U.S. department of Commerce. Their budget is 10 billion a year. The agency that represents the 1% of companies has a $10 billion budget. The agency represents the 99%, where most Americans work, has 700 million. So the Small Business Administration has essentially been shuttered.

Yeah. All right. So I am, if I may, Shannon.

Of course. Yes, you may.

I'm sorry to obsess about this, but, you know, I'm a small business owner, and therefore I'm just a problem solver at heart. Right. And I love to solve problems because it's what's kept me in business. And so I'm looking at this and I know this friction must exist. And you're confirming that it exists. And if the friction exists, that makes it difficult for me to become a vendor with the government as a small business, then that friction also exists for whoever it is that's on the government payroll that has to shepherd me through that process. And they don't want to do it. And so that person wants to just go with the Fortune 100 company that's already got, you know, is on board as a vendor. It's easy. They just sign the deal and they're done. Wouldn't it be that, that would that piece of friction, if we could somehow eliminate that and make it easy to onboard any company, including small businesses, wouldn't that be the first step we'd want to take to solve this problem?

You know, that would help, but I don't know how you would do that.

I don't know how either. Yeah, I'm just the idea guy here. Yeah.

I think the easiest thing to do would be for the American people to realize they're being cheated out of about 350 billion a year. In the last 48 months, the Middle class has been cheated out of about $1.2 trillion in federal contracts that would have created millions of jobs. People should be outraged. I see people protesting all kinds of things on tv. The thing they should be protesting is the middle class economy is being devastated by corrupt government officials. And greedy Fortune 500 firms. And I hope that President Biden does something about that. He doesn't. I think we're in serious trouble. But people, quite frankly, if you watch the national media, they never mention small businesses. They virtually never mention it. And I'll tell you something. I've never ever seen anybody on national television talk about the fact that small business responsible for about 99% of all the net new jobs. I've never heard that on television.

Okay, so, yeah, and I love this. I do want to ask one question. I want to talk more about what you do and what the ASPL and how you do it. But I also don't want to miss this opportunity to ask a question for someone who started this organization and has had so much success over the past couple of decades trying to effect positive change for small business owners. How did you go from where there's some key things of going from this idea of, okay, I'm going to start this organization and we're going to help these small businesses to starting to see success. And really, what action, what things did you do to create this organization that you can look back on now and share those tactics with our listeners?

You know what? I did a lot of public relations, a lot of phone calls. I used to have a young lady working for me full time that would just call the bookers on all the TV news program and tell them I was available to discuss, you know, small businesses and the economy, jobs and things of that nature. And I got a lot of media out of that. I used to blog on a lot of different websites. But I guess, you know, the biggest thing was when I called the Government Accountability Office and got that first investigation and the Associated Press wrote that story about it. And then from then journalists, you know, from around the country started calling me.

You were the expert. You were the small business expert, right?

Something interesting. I shouldn't be, but I hired a famous journalist about two years ago, Daniel Zwerdling, to do some research. And he came back and told me that when he looked at LexisNexis, I remember telling him, I said, I bet my media footprint is 10 times larger than all the other alleged small business advocates in America combined. He said, no, your media footprint is 100 times larger. There are 1300 hits on my name on LexisNexis. I've done more TV, radio, issued more press releases, written more blogs, read more legislation than every other small business group in America combined. And that shouldn't be that way. Now if anybody doubts that, here to the first one of your listeners that can find the president of any group in Washington claims to represent small business in the last decade on national television objecting to the diversion of federal small business contracts to Fortune 500 firms. I'll give them $1,000. Find anybody that is the president of any group in Washington, D.C. that claims to represent small businesses on national television objecting to the diversion of billions a year in federal small business contracts to Fortune 500 firms. I'll send you $1,000.

All right, you heard it here first. Goes in the show notes Feedbackus show co. That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't do it. You can't. There's nobody.

So the law is 23%, is that right? 23% of all contracts. And has that ever been met?

No. Here's what they do. I've got a legal opinion from Professor Charles Teefer, who's the nation's leading expert on federal contracting law. He was the attorney for the House of Representatives for over a decade. President Obama appointed him to serve on the commission to investigate spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy is the Albert Einstein of federal contracting law. And he wrote a legal opinion about a year ago that says the acquisition budget that should be used to calculate the 23% is over 1.5 trillion. Another expert I know, Ashok Mahan, has a company in D.C. called Fedmine. He agrees. He says it's possibly up to 2 trillion. The small Business Administration to fabricate compliance with the goal excludes over a trillion dollars a year in federal acquisitions from those calculations. And then they add in billions in contracts that rewarded to Fortune 500 firms and their subsidiaries. So the goal has been fabricated for as long as I can remember. So they'll come out in late summer and claim that they hit the goal. I think last year they said they gave Smovis's 25% and it was about 110 billion. That means they're using a federal acquisition budget around 485 billion. Well, the acquisition budget is three times that. It's over 1.5 trillion. So small business should be getting about 350 billion a year. I'll tell you something interesting. The House Small Business Committee did a study a few years ago that said for every 1% contracts of small businesses went up, it would create 100,000 net new jobs. Based upon all the research, all the data, it looks like small business getting 3%, not 23. If President Biden would issue an executive order, make it mandatory for all federal agencies to hit that 23% goal, that would be an additional 20%. And according to the Senate Small Business Committee, that would create 2 million net new jobs. That would virtually double the number of jobs that America's creating on an annual basis.

Yeah, that's awesome. This is like a bipartisan problem. It sounds like it doesn't matter who's in office or who's in charge. It seems to just keep going. Right.

I like to say, is cheating small businesses a bipartisan issue? It's gotta be. It's gone on since Reagan. And I worked on Obama's campaign, and I met with him, I endorsed him. He put my endorsement on the front page of his campaign website. He issued a press release that I wrote, and the last sentence was, it's time. In the diversion of federal small business contracts to corporate giants during his administration. It just got worse. It just got worse. And in fact, this is something that got very little coverage in the media. Obama tried to close the sba. He tried to close it by combining with the Department of Commerce. Well, that has been when people want to close the SBA. Reagan tried it in 84, 85. The way they close it is to combine it with the Department of Commerce. Well, Obama tried the same thing, and I was able to stop him with the help of Public Citizen Group. They issued a report called Slighted that talked about how the government was cheating small businesses. And that came out about two days before Obama was going to have a national meeting to announce combine the sba, Department of Commerce. Combining the sba, Department of Commerce would be like combining the Ku Klux Klan and the naacp. You got the group that represents the largest business in America that hates small businesses, and the agency that represents small businesses. It would be ridiculous to combine them. Like combining NASA and the U.S. forest Service. Right. But yeah, every president, I'll have to say, except Clinton. Bill Clinton was super pro small business. He was really amazing. And I knew some people that were on his staff. Jerry Glover was head of the SB Office of Advocacy, and Jerry Glover was a major force in helping small business during the Clinton years. But there's a lot of pressure. You know, when you're president or you're in Congress, there's tremendous pressure to close the SBA and end those programs for small businesses, to try to cover up these decades of fraud and.

Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so what are the typical arguments? And, you know, you've got all this press coverage you focused on with you and the acl. You're making all these great connections and everything. So two questions, really. What kind of arguments do you get of why this is still going on, and what is the number one thing we can do us today? Dave and I and our listeners, the thousands and thousands of small business owners that are listening today. So two parts, you know, what do they say when you confront them with this and what can we do to help?

Well, so this came out 21 years ago, and every year for 21 years, when it's exposed that the SBA is cheating small businesses and diverting small business contracts to Fortune 500 firms, they say the same thing. Miscoding, miscoding, computer glitches and simple human error. So Every year for 21 years, the SBA has been able to get away with claiming that it's just data entry errors.

Got it.

Yeah.

Okay, good to know. So that's a, That's a great place to start. We need some technology, it sounds like that we can help them become more efficient and less error prone.

Well, you know, I mean, do they. Do they admit is the wrong word, but is that the reason that they give any time? It's shown, it's like, oh, it's data entry errors. Okay. So, like, wouldn't it make sense to sort of fan the flames on that? Because we know as geeky small business owners that that's a solvable problem if someone wants it solved. And that's a big if. Right. It's way easier to just say, oh, it's data entry data. You know, we classified things wrong. Sorry, we'll get it. We'll try better next time. It's like, well, we can, we can actually fix that. We can complete.

That's just an excuse. That's not the real problem.

It's not the real problem. But what I'm saying is if we, if we build it up, I mean, in order to get problems fixed, fixed, especially when they're systemic like this, and the people that have them know that they have them. Even if it wasn't maliciously created, there's sort of this malicious. It's not intent, but we're just kind of malicious momentum, right? So we have this problem. We know we have this problem, but boy howdy, I don't know how we're going to change it. Right? So we have to. When there's a scenario like that, we have to give somebody the opportunity to save for space, Right? Otherwise they'll never be. They'll never join force. So it, like, if we can fan the flames on. Oh, wait a minute. Oh, there's a data, like, there's a data like classification problem. Well, let's get a Good database company in here to rebuild that stuff and solve this. And now everybody can save face and say, oh, thank goodness we have this great small business that came in. I mean, like. Like, I don't know how else it gets solved other than that. Right. But. But the first thing is we have to get the publicity up on. Okay, it's a database problem. Even though we all know that's not actually the problem. Right, But. But if we. If we fan those flames, then it's like, oh, the public knows we have a database problem. Shoot, we better let them fix this. You know.

Especially with COVID and how we're all trying to help small businesses recover. It would be a great time to take this, that sort of end around, if you will, because I agree with you, Lloyd. There's a lot more to it. But if you can wedge the door open with this. Oh, this is the problem you're describing. How do we. What action can we take to solve.

That part of it?

You know, maybe that would. Maybe that would have an impact.

Yeah. You know, I have been in every office in Congress. I've been in every Senate office. I've been in every House office multiple times. I've been places in D.C. that, you know, very few people have been. And the force against small business in Washington is astounding. It's absolutely astounding. It's one of the biggest. I'll call it a conspiracy that I've ever seen in my whole lifetime. You've got every president since Reagan has approved this. And, you know, the Small Business Administration, by the way, their budget's been cut, I think, every year for decades. Okay.

So thinking about budgets, I want to ask you, as asbl, as an entity, how do you and your team generate revenue to be able to fight these battles and get exposure? I mean, can small businesses join or donate? How does it.

You know, in the past, we had thousands of members and they all donated. But I found that I was spending all my time talking to them. I didn't have time to, you know, do my job. So I got down to. I was just a small number of companies that support the American Small Business League. And what we do, by the way, these days is primarily we sue the government. So probably 90% of what I do is suing the government in fatal court and under the Freedom of Information Act. And when you win those lawsuits and they have to reimburse you for your legal fee, so it's essentially, you know, they're funding. The government's funding American small business. That's interesting.

Right. Well, it's not the government, it's us.

By the way, the government has cut me checks for $1,030,000 in the last, I guess, the last two and a half years for lawsuits. I've won. I've won 110, I've lost two and. Okay. But I find that I tried to lobby Congress. I tried everything, by the way. I've tried to lobby Congress. You know, I used to go up there and, you know, go from door to door talking to people, handing out information, you know, and it just was pointless. And the thing that I found most successful is I just sue them.

But it seems like that for them it's almost like just easier to write a check and then they can go back to just doing businesses cost to doing business.

Like I said, there's only so many things you can do. I'll tell you, I tried to build a large correlation of small business owners. And if you. I remember, we called, I don't know, 10,000 small businesses one year. Next year we called them again and most of them were gone. Right. The turnover rate is high.

Yeah, sure, sure. But that's what we're doing here, trying to keep everybody going.

Yeah. So I went from that to, you know, lobbying Congress. And I had some good luck with that. I really had some great access to people. John Kerry, when he was chair of the Senate Small Business Committee, would call me and I had his cell phone number. We would talk. But the problem is the big defense contractors, they're the ones that really control Congress.

Right.

Fortune 500 firms own the federal government. I saw a study by Think Tank a couple years ago. It said 95% of the time, when Congress passes legislation, legislation is. Fortune 500 firms won't and only maybe 5% of time, it's what the public wants. So let's just say this. It's been in the news for 21 years that the government is giving small bits of contracts to Fortune 500 firms and cheating small businesses. Nothing's changed. Right. I've been on. You can't name a news program I haven't been on. I've been on every.

Oh, I've seen it.

I've been on cnn, abc, NBC, cbs, Fox, Fox Business, NBC, msnbc. Right. I've had stories in every newspaper in the country. I'm actually in my home office and I used to frame them and there's 50 of them laying on the floor here. Right. So I've been in every newspaper in the country. I've done some of the biggest radio shows and podcasts in the country. And nothing changed. Well, here's what changed. Here's one thing changed. One thing changed. The government hired an international company to make sure that Lloyd Chapman doesn't go on television. We're talking about fraud. So in the summer of 2013, I became Persona non grata. People used to write stories about me without even talking to me. And so about twice a week, I would Google my name when I was having breakfast, look at the news stories that popped up. And on Monday, I googled my name. There was a hundred pages of, you know, articles and stories about, you know, my lawsuits, all this stuff. And then on Wednesday, I googled my name and I was gone. Literally gone. There was. There was no mention of me on the Internet. I talked to five consultants. They told me the only people that could do that would be Google. At that time, the president of Google's parent company was want to say, Eric Schultz, who was very close friends of President Obama and Google, sort of. What's that called? The platformed Me. Yeah, back before that term, you know.

Before that was a thing. That's right.

It's like, you're back. I mean, when I do a search now, I get, you know, thousands.

Well, let's just say this. I. The biggest lawsuits I've ever won, I've won in the last five to 10 years. And I. My last national TV appearance was, I think was in the. Was in 2013. So I've won about six months ago when the largest freedom of information case anyone's ever won in history. There's no mention of it in the national media. I was in court for seven years. I spent over a million dollars in legal fees. I won. And it was never mentioned anywhere in the national media.

And that I find I found it on Small Business Trends. This is your FOI thing in June. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I should have been.

So what. What can we do? Is there any opinion. Yeah, what can we do to help as small business owners individually and as a platform that speaks to other small business owners? What can we do to help?

Well, you know, I was thinking about that I'm going to try to get back on CNN by talking to Erin Burnett. I used to do her show all the time when she was. I think she did what's it called, Squawk on the street on cnbc. And she and I got along great and I did some great shows with her. And I think I'm gonna try to, you know, reach out to Ambernett. So if your listeners will contact Aaron Burnett and say Lloyd wants to come back on your show. And that's. That probably talked about 15 years ago. It's still happening, still going on. I've got to get on the Joe Rogan show also.

But I think. I think that would be a good one for you.

That would be good.

I'll tell you something. If I could get on the Joe Rogan show, I believe that I could bring an end to this. I think I could get another 300 billion a year in existing federal infrastructure spinning back into the middle class, double the number of net new jobs and cut unemployment in half. I truly do.

I don't know that Spotify wants to be talking about that. Remember, Joe is owned and controlled by Spotify.

Exactly.

That's right.

Well, I think I listen to his show a lot and I think he and I would see eye to eye on that.

I would agree with you. As we were bringing you on board here for this, I assumed you had done Joe's show because you fit into that mindset so perfectly. But obviously you have not.

You know what? I have stories that are just. You just astounding. Just be astounding what's happened to me. It's just crazy.

That's awesome. The thing is, to your point, a couple of points you made earlier, it's a problem that not very many people talk about. And so I'm happy that we've had an opportunity to talk with you about it today. I really appreciate you coming on the show. We're going to dig a little deeper into this problem, try to help make some connections and promote this, get some additional media coming your way. What's the best way for our listeners to, you know, connect with you to help or, you know, with the American Small Business League?

Well, you can go to ASBL.com I've got lloydschapman.com and lloydchapman.net that has all my media appearances. Lloydschapman.com has all my video appearances. And yeah, let's get me on Joe Rogan and I'll solve this problem once and for all.

We'll be glad to help. And Lloyd, sounds like a plan.

Yeah.

Thank you again. And you know, if you're a small business owner listening and, and you'd like to get connected with Lloyd or, you know, share your story about government contracts that maybe you've been involved in. Feedback@businessshow co. Lloyd, thank you again and we'll certainly hear from you again, I'm sure.

Thank you very much.

Wow. I need. Hang on. I just need to go. Yeah, yeah.

So I Can tell why he's successful.

Well, yeah, that's it. I mean, he, he has to be, you know, completely persistent. Like if he gives up, that's is too bad. He's obviously been at this for a very long time and it's too bad that, that he has essentially given up on trying to solve the problem in, in more creative ways. And I get why. Like, he, you know, he's tried every way that he could think of and the only way he feels successful is, is by suing and winning. And obviously he knows how to. He knows how to pick the right things to sue about so that he's certain to win or almost certain to win, you know.

Sure.

And, and that's, I mean, that's great. And it. They feel like wins to him. I'm not, I couldn't. What I couldn't figure out is if it. Are we moving the ball down the field. Feel.

I don't know. That's the thing. It's, it's. It, it's. So he's in a political world. Right. And that's true.

Yeah.

I kind of feel like you're. When you're, you're in that political sphere of influence for so long, it's tough to get. I kept trying to come back to that. What is the.

What's the action?

How. How can we help? And, and I don't know that maybe, maybe there isn't.

But.

Right.

You know, obviously he's been very successful at what he's doing and I love hearing about this stuff and I firmly do, do agree with him that, you know, this stuff goes on. Oh, I'm fascinating to talk.

Sure. He's not wrong. Yeah.

Oh, no, I think he is.

Yeah.

I don't think he is.

But I like you. You know, we're action. All about small business action, guys, what can we do today? And, and that's not how politics work.

Oh, clearly that's true. If he were to solve this problem, he wouldn't have a job in anymore.

And. Yeah, a lot of other people too.

A lot of other people too. But that's, I mean, that's kind of how it goes. Yeah.

Great stuff.

Yeah. Actually, I'd love to hear you would have a job. It would just be a different job, you know, that, that kind of persistence, that, that there's value in that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But again, share your stories with your government contracts. If you try to get them, had them, you know, this kind of thing. Feedback at BusinessShow Co we would appreciate. Appreciate it always love to hear from you. Thanks for listening.

Always. Always. Thanks. Yeah, thanks so much for listening and keep living that charmed life. Thanks for coming on the show, Lloyd. We'll see you all next.