Losing Employees, Confidential Information and Moral – SBS 41

Greetings folks and welcome to the small business show at businessshow.co episode number 41 for Wednesday, November 18, 2015. Here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you, Dave?

I'm doing well, man. Yeah, it's, it's been. Well, it's crazy this time of year for, for us here, business wise is a little nuts just because it's Q4 and. Yeah. And, and we tried something new this year with the, with the sales team. I think I mentioned it briefly and said I would circle back to it, but it was that we. I've, I've, I've, I've never felt married to the concept of a five day workweek.

Right.

It's, you know, get, get your work done when you need to.

Yeah, sure.

Now there are some jobs, I mean like publishing, Mac observer. That's a five day thing. Although I guess we could, if we, if we kind of absolved ourselves of any care about being timely with which, which sounds sort of trite but, but there are other things we can do like tips and things that, that are less, you know, more evergreen and less timely. Sure, we could do that there too. But certainly at Backbeat, you know, I was talking to the guys and you know, five days is a long stretch to just be nose to the grindstone on the same thing. So over the summer we went to a four day work week and kind of went round and round and picked Wednesdays as the day that, that they would not come in. My, my sales guys. And I'll tell you what, it's been awesome. I mean, really awesome. Because think about it, you know, they, I mean, sales is this job that's just, you know, repetition and negativity.

Right?

Yeah, yeah. And, and to be able to compress that into, you know, to be forced to compress that. We found that, you know, we had some holidays and things and we found that we were, we were getting a lot more done when we had time pressures. So it was like, okay, let's artificially time pressure. Let's take a day away. And it's been fantastic. Except for November.

Oh well.

Because there's so much going on right now. You know, most of the year the sales that we do are generated by us.

Right.

It's us going out and, and drumming up leads and, and you know, doing what you do and following your formulas and all of that stuff and staying on people. So it's very, the schedule is very much controllable by us. Sometimes there's Something that comes in on a, you know, on a Wednesday or whatever. But, but by and large it's, you know, we sort of get to push and control the process in November and, and December is when people start looking at their, you know, fiscal year 2016 budgets. At least this year. Right, sure. And so things just materialize without us doing anything, which is great because, I.

Mean, they're planning your end of your stuff.

Right. They're playing. Yes. So suddenly it's their schedules that we're working on as opposed to ours. And, and so I think, I think what we'll do next year is, is do the, you know, I'll resume the, the four day work week thing in, in January, but I, I think we gotta, we gotta, you know, have everybody kind of all hands on deck. Yeah.

And I think that's a, a good thing is when you're proposing these new things, experiments, if you will.

Yeah.

That you always have that caveat, you know, hey, we may need to adjust here and there and. Because inevitably things are going to work out differently than you thought.

Yeah. And, and, and we did that. You know, at first it was like, let's do it for two weeks. Okay. Let's do it for a month. And then at the beginning of October we had a conversation. I said, okay, let's let it ride through the end of the year. Let's see how it goes. And obviously we're. Today especially, I've been on the phone with one of my sales reps more today than I am on any other given day on average. And we were talking about it and I said, yeah, I've been thinking about this. The Wednesday thing isn't working during November. He's like, yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

That's good.

Yeah. Because there's holidays, I mean, we got Thanksgiving coming up next week and then there's Christmas and New Year's. And so there's all this sort of weird stuff that's churning up in addition to it being the busiest quarter of the year, so.

That's right.

Yeah.

No, that's good. And you know, one of our companies, we do some fulfillment services for businesses located in China. And one of these companies that we do, you know, server provide services for, they've recently come said, hey, we'd like you guys to manage some outside salespeople. And it's interesting you mentioned that time, you know, in managing and people doing their own thing, because I have spent a lot of time the last month really convincing the management at this company that the concept of outside salespeople doesn't mean that they come into your building and sit there and you basically stand behind them all day to be sure they are getting work done. It's, you know, more on, well, what are they achieving on a day by day basis and you know, what new customers they're bringing in, what are they, what are they selling and this kind of thing. And it's, it's really a fundamental shift in, I mean these, these guys we work with are just convinced that no one can be trusted to be out there on their own and managing their own time. And we've slowly, slowly, I think, you know, making inroads into changing their, their thought process on it. But certainly challenging.

Yeah, I, I'm too much of a micromanager to have anybody I don't trust. And that's just something I've learned about myself. If, if I have someone that I feel like I need to be on time, I gotta fire him and it's not worth it. No. Well, certainly it's just not, it's the wrong fit for me. And you know, I, I mean, and it may be true that it's not you, it's me, but still you're fired. You know, it's not working.

I love, I love that. I gotta remember that one. It may be true, but it's still, you're fired.

You're still fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's because organization. Yeah, yeah.

One of us can't stay working with the other and guess who gets to make the decision today, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And so you, you do have to kind of have that sense of trust. And, and for me it's always been okay, what, what are we going to measure? You know, like we have a social media person and so you really have to define, okay, what is success? You know, is it followers, likes, views, subscribers, all these things. Because you may have a harder time getting down to the, the, the roi. What is the real return on investment for posting in one platform or another?

That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's not, it's not always. Well, you have to make it as cut and dry as you can, but it's not always obvious what those should be.

Yeah, yeah. And you have to find, you know, work. Working together to find those things is, it's important. So we're talking about a. Go ahead.

No, you know, that's fine. I was going to say, you know, this time compression thing I found even just today for myself, I thought I was going to New York tomorrow for, just for an overnight for A press event, and then this morning. And so I had rearranged my week. The end of my week is actually the busiest part in terms of me doing actual, like, scheduled work. And it's prepping MacGeek Gab, one of my other podcasts that we do on Sunday. And it takes me quite a bit of time to prep all these questions and come up with stuff. And so I have to plan that time and I have to budget it, and I usually do a little bit on Thursday and a little bit on Friday. And this week, knowing that I was going to be out of the office, I moved all that to today. And through the while I was doing it, actually, I realized this press event's going to be a waste of my time. There's not enough. Going to be enough vendors there or anything. And so I decided not to go. I was like, wait a minute. I've already gotten all my Thursday and Friday work done. This is amazing, right? You know, it's like, wow, how come I'm not this efficient every week?

Yeah, yeah, that is. That's an interesting observation.

Yeah. So. But you're right. We are talking about employees for the most part.

Yeah, for the most part, except. Yeah, that's right. But, you know, we. We've had, you know, we always welcome. I always. I call it viewer mail, but a subscriber mail, right? That's right. Yeah. And, you know, Feedback BusinessShow Co is the. The way to reach us. And, you know, we've kind of stacked up a few, you know, emails and questions and comments, and I thought we would spend a little time. There's a few we have in here that have to do with employees, and why don't we go through and chat about those today?

Works for me. You want to take the first one, man?

Sure, sure. So we got an email from Amy, and Amy writes, my business is going through some tough times. I met with my employees to be as transparent as possible possible about where we are at. And right after that, two of my employees quit, which is one third of our company. I'm trying to keep morale up and be sure everyone knows we have a future. Any ideas on what to do in a situation like this? I need to replace these employees, and I can't afford to have anyone else, you know. Yeah, that's a tough one because you're. You're. You know, it's always. We were talking about earlier, you know, firing people, letting them go, but, you know, you are also at. At the whim of your employees, if you will, because you need People to show up every day to do the work. And this, it is a challenging situation. You know, what you're going through. And I think that you, you are spot on, though, with, you know, you need to think about, okay, how are we going to keep morale up? How are we going to let everybody know that the ship is not. Not sinking, if you will. And I think also I commend you for your transparency. You have to talk to people and let them know what's going on so you can avoid surprises. And I think there's two kinds of employees, ones that are going to rise to the occasion and help you get through, you know, when these tough times come up, because they are going to come up, there's no way you're going to ever avoid them 100%. And then you have other folks that are. They don't want to stick around. And it sounds like you lost a couple of people that don't want to stick around, don't want to put the effort in. And in the long run, I would argue that your business is going to be better because those folks left without them.

It's true. Yeah, it's, it's hard to. Potentially hard to see that, you know, immediately, because right now, your business is not necessarily better without them. They did, you know, so it's interesting. But I mean, they did free up some cash flow for you, right? You know, and I'm not sure, Amy, if you were, if part of this transparency was, look, everybody's got to take a 10% pay cut, you know, or, or maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I don't know what the, you know, what the actual parameters were that, that, that led to these two people saying, whoa, I'm out. But if it wasn't a pay cut and they left anyway just because, you know, you said, look, you know, we're having some trouble here, and maybe there's some changes. We need to make it like, you know, they may have done you a favor, but actually, I think, actually, you're right. I don't think it's may. They may have done you a favor. They did you a favor because they were some people. But even in the short term, they may have done you a favor because they freed up some cash flow. But here's the thing. You have to be really careful. And this, this can be true whether times are tough or times are great. When an employee leaves, you know, you're left with a vacuum that has to be filled immediately. And based on the size of your business, you know, you're not monstrous by any stretch. Probably every job that's being done was at some point being done by you.

Right?

That's right.

And so you have to be really careful that you don't fall back into the trap of, oh, you know what, Well, I did it before, I'll do it myself. I mean, that's a good attitude to have because it shows resilience.

Right.

We'll get through this. But before you just shoulder those responsibilities, stop for a second. Look at who you do have left. Right? There's four people left, if I'm doing my math. Right, plus you. Or maybe not plus you. So it's four or five of you left. Can you spread those responsibilities out right now and perhaps twist this into a positive thing?

Right.

You save some cash flow. Yes, some people are going to need to take on additional jobs, but hey, the reality is that could be a good thing for you. So.

Yeah, yeah, maybe a good thing for the employees that are sticking around is maybe they are looking at it in a different way than you are as well. I mean, inevitably they are. And you had that, you know, where you're transparent and want to meet with everyone and I would suggest you meet again. And maybe it's individually and kind of feel out, you know, what, what their thoughts are and, and maybe it's an opportunity to reward someone and somebody who wants to step up and take on some more responsibility and you just don't know where it's going to lead. I mean, the first thing is, you know, maybe you can't panic. You know, Brian Frist from Digistore left us with that really strong comment that I still think about all the time, is that don't make fear based decisions. And as a small business owner, well, you know, it's challenging sometimes when things happen, you immediately want to respond and you may not make the best decision. So I think you got to step back, get your team in place, as Dave said, you know, spread out some of those responsibilities and you know, make two people left. Maybe you, maybe you can find one replacement.

Right.

And spread out some of those expenses amongst your. The team that really stuck with you. And I think recognizing those people that really stuck with you is important as well. You know, if they're.

Yeah, you can do that initially too, right. I mean, obviously cash flow is tight. I'm assuming that from the question. But you could say, hey, look, here's the thing. We've got all this stuff to do. Two people are gone. We're going to have to shoulder at least some of what they Did. And look, I'm here, too. We're all going to do this together. And yet, either, yes, I am going to bring in, you know, one person to replace them, two people to replacement, or perhaps no people to replace them right now, but we're all going to spread it around. And look, here's the thing. When, you know, as things improve, here's how we're going to measure that improvement. And when there is extra money on the table, we're going to spread that around. And you've got. But you've got to be careful of this. You have to. And I think. I think you've had more experience with this than I have, Shannon, and I think you're probably an expert at it. But. Well, I remember years ago you said, you know, when I tell my employees when, when things are good, we spread it around and, you know. And that's a good thing. Yeah, yeah, it is.

And it's obviously difficult to, you know, when the other happens and you have to tighten things up. And I'm a big believer in the bonus, you know, bonusing people out, especially in a small business, because things do go up and down. Increasing salaries can really be troublesome over time. When you hit those speed bumps, and I do anything I can to save the people that keep their jobs when times get tough, because especially people that stood by you for a long period of time, like these other four people that are hanging out with Amy, those are folks that you want to protect. And so bonusing when times are good and doing those things, I think is a great way to do it. And you know, even at a lower. Keeping them at a lower salary, but showing that. That they know, hey, when we hit these numbers. But you have to share that information with them.

Right.

You hit these goals, we hit these things, everybody's going to do well, whether it's profit sharing, you know, or retire, funding their retirement, whatever it is we've done, we've tried all kinds of different ways.

Yeah.

You know, so you have to keep moving forward. I mean, you, you, you got to talk with these folks that are still there, you know, hear what they have to say, and you have to be present. We talked a little bit before about, you know, what to do when disaster strikes. I mean, this is not necessarily a disaster, but you need to be out amongst everybody. You know, you may want to keep your door closed and, you know, not interact because you're so frustrated or concerned, but you need to be out walking around and getting the sense of how people are interacting and how they feel uh, maybe you need to take everybody out for lunch and try to get out of the office and, and, you know, get, get some feedback on the. On the best way to proceed.

Yep. People. Honesty resonates with people, even if it's not the. The. Even if what you're telling them isn't what they would prefer to hear. They would prefer to hear whatever is going on than nothing. And, and, you know, you said take them out to lunch. I mean, it can be a cheap lunch. You don't have to go nuts.

Right.

You know, you can find some food truck and, and, you know, I'll go and get sandwiches from the food truck or whatever it is and sit in the park and chit and, you know, you can do this cheaply and they're going to understand why, you know, come.

In and, yeah, make them lunch, make a breakfast. I mean, we've done this in all different ways, you know, with my businesses, and, you know, we had breakfast competitions and different things, and I, you know, love to go in and cook for everybody and it's inexpensive, you know, go to store. But they see you interacting with them, and I believe. And you're getting the message across that, hey, you guys are important to me. I'm going to do something nice for you, just like everybody does. And. But maybe they're not used to seeing that from, you know, their employer. And really, you know, now is, you want to. Now is the time you really want to strengthen your team. And like Dave said, maybe you don't have to replace both those people. And we'd certainly love to hear from you down the road where you follow up and say, wow, that was a great thing, and I only replaced one or none. And now my team is much tighter and cohesive, and we're. And we're doing great.

Yep. Yep.

Cool. You want to hit the next one, Dave?

Yeah. Let's see. Rick writes, I put a ton of time into educating and training a key employee to take on new tasks and to grow within our business. I recently gave them a cash bonus, and literally a couple of days after that, they quit. When I asked them why, they replied they felt too much pressure to succeed. I thought I was giving them the opportunity, and they seemed to have taken it completely wrong. Have you guys ever had this happen? How do I challenge my employees to grow and create career opportunities for them when stuff like this happens? It's very frustrating. Wow. Yeah, that's frustrating. It's, you know, so there's two problems here that are happening and potentially happening in parallel. Although it's hard to say. I can't put myself in the employee's mindset or your particular employee's mindset. But that's part of the problem is we do tend to do that and say, well, if I was that person, I would want the opportunity to do more, and I would want more challenge, which of course means more pressure. But you're the boss. You're the one that, you know, in many cases here, started the business. Pressure is something that actually is, you know, at, at a certain level good for you and something you welcome. It's not the case with everyone, even if they say they want it.

Right.

And this particular employee that left could very well have been someone that thought they wanted the pressure or, or, or the extra responsibility and was willing to accept the pressure that came with it. Or they may have been saying that feeling like, well, if I don't say I want this, then maybe my boss is going to think less of me. And, you know, and so now there's that pressure that's just there before the new responsibilities are even delivered. So it's a tough thing.

Right.

You know, if you could rewind it all. And I hate to live in the past.

Right.

But there are lessons to be learned, and so it's worth rewinding at least once and just sort of playing through it again, you know, did you, when you presented this opportunity to this person, you know, is it possible they saw it that that's when the pressure arrived?

Right.

Like, oh, he's expecting me to do this? I have to say yes.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It is a tough one. And I would say I'm, I'm a total. I mean, I've had this problem myself a number of times, and I think the, the key point you made, Dave, that we could talk more about is just because it's what is good for us, the business owner, you know, I, I've done it. I put my own kind of worldview of constantly wanting to move up. Right. Whatever that means.

Yep.

It. And I will, you know, walk around and say, oh, you know, this person's been here for this long doing this job. They got to be ready for something else. Right. I mean, because I, I know I would be ready.

I would be.

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is you're, you're doing this actually out of kindness.

Right?

You know, you're, you're, you're trying. You're trying. Yeah, you're, you're, you're trying to feel empathy. And, and what would I want if I were here and predicting that, and the reality is you can't. And this, this, I mean, it sounds like you went through and probably still go through, just like I do the same thing. But it took me a while to learn, like, it's actually okay that people that work for me have different goals than I do. And we've, we've touched on this in interviews with, with people too, because it happens to all of us. You know, if you had, if you had a team of people who all wanted to be business owners, well, I guarantee you that team's not going to stay together.

That's right. It would be a terrible place to work.

It'd be a terrible place to work. Right?

Yeah. Right.

Not that any of these people are terrible people and not they could all go on to great success, but you just can't have them all together. And that's right. And it, but it's hard because you say, well, if I was in their shoes, I would hate the way I'm being treated. Like, wow, like, you know, and yet I'm going to treat them that way again tomorrow. That's a hard thing to come around to. So, you know, communication is the key.

Right.

And it's, and I have this with, with my employees, but I still, I feel like I screwed up more often than I get it.

Right.

You know, because I. Because it's hard to. When you have the conversation, it's hard to know, are they answering because they feel they want to come up with the answer they think I want or are they answering honestly for who they are? And you got to feel that out. It's your job to feel it out. You can't expect them to answer the right way.

That's right. And I think that you have to fundamentally step back and realize that the relationship is, you know, forever altered because you're signing the paycheck and they, you know, most employees want to tell, you know, the boss, if you will, what they want to hear. Right. I mean, maybe some of your. The best employees don't do that, but I, I think there is that pressure and I think that the discussion that you, you, that is very helpful to have with a person when you make those opportunities available to them is what happens if it doesn't work out? What is plan B? Because I think the fear, and again, this is me speculating for the employee, but I would think the fear would be, boy, if I fail at this, I can't go back and do my old job or do whatever, or now I'm getting more money and what if it doesn't work? So that has to resonate inside, I would think. And so maybe having that plan B, when you have those initial discussions, one thing I try to do is to alert as many people in the company when there is an opportunity available to see what happens and see who comes into your office and says, hey, you know, I'd like to do that.

That's a good idea. Yeah, if you can.

Right?

If you can abstract it out a little bit and just sort of dangle the carrot and see who cares to come to it. But even then, I feel like there's that person that, you know, aims to please and says, well, I better be the one to do this. And sometimes that's a good thing.

Right.

You know, that. That can be something that pulls someone out of their comfort zone and then they realize, wow, I actually do like this. I mean, I know my entire life has been pulling myself out of my comfort zone, and there's been. There's been many different catalysts to that. Sometimes it's just, I want to try this, and other times it's, oh, I better do this. Otherwise that person's not gonna ask me to do, you know, this other thing or whatever it is. And I. I find this not only in. In, you know, my business business, but also in my. My music business. Sometimes I'll hear about a gig. It's like that I'm not the perfect guy for that gig, but I wanna get called by that person that. That's offering it for other things they have. So I need to stretch a little bit and work at this one so that the next one that I do want actually comes my way.

Yeah.

And I agree, you know, but. But I mean, it's a little bit different, but not really. I mean, it's art and, you know, I. I play the drums and I want to improve my skills, and so it is good to expose myself to different things that I'm not comfortable with. But I guess it's all the same. It's not any different at all, is it?

No, I mean, it's. We. We're all like that. I mean, I will tell you. I mean, it's not related as much to Rick's. Well, maybe it is, but, you know, pulling yourself out of your comfort zone, which is what you're trying to do with your employees. I mean, this show is a perfect example for me. You know, I don't know when we started and, hey, let's try this thing. And I was no good at it. I'm, you know, Marginal at it at best now. And those things are. I'm always nervous before the show because I feel, well, what am I gonna have to talk about? I don't have anything to say, which. Which inevitably is completely false.

And you have to know that by now, Shannon.

I do know that, but I still have jitters when I go into the show. And then. But yet when I'm done, I was like, man, this is the. You know, one of my favorite parts of the week.

Yep.

Is being able to have these discussions with the people that, you know, we're interviewing and you. And, you know, and you, Dave. I mean, I always make the comment I am learning the most out of everyone.

Yeah.

And that's okay with me, you know, but, you know, for Rick's situation, I think the communication is really key, and sometimes it's just. You're just not gonna know.

But, no, you're gonna screw this up and people are gonna leave. But, yeah, you can't rewind this when, you know, I mean, maybe you can, but I don't. I've never seen it happen. I mean, you know, where somebody. I mean, this is what we're talking about is at some level, you know, the concept called the Peter Principle.

Right.

Where somebody hits people will rise to their level of incompetence.

Right, Right.

And so this person was great at their previous post, whatever that was. You, you know, gave them the opportunity to move up to the next post in their mind, perhaps. Perhaps in yours or perhaps not. You know, but in their mind, this. They failed miserably at this for whatever reason, and now they just have to leave. They can't rewind and go back to the job they did, whatever it was six months ago, that awesome at. And actually, I say that. I say that I've never seen that. I have seen it happen once, and it lasted for a little while and was brilliant, and then it sort of, you know, fizzled out.

Because I think the larger the organization, I would think maybe the better chance of that because you could kind of funnel them back into something. But if it's. If it's a small business, you know, eight or nine, 10 employees or something, I think it's pretty challenging.

Yeah. Actually, you know, now that I think about it, it happened to me when I had. I was with Computer Nerds in. In Austin, which was like a. Like a Geek Squad kind of thing, you know, pre Geek Squad, but. But that sort of thing. We're going out, and I was doing a lot of that, and it was my first. It really was the first time that I was given the. The opportunity to then manage people, and I was a partner in the business, but I was. I was just out in the field doing. Doing tech work. And so I did. I became general manager of the office and things actually went well for a while, and then. And then things didn't go well, and there was a. Quite a bit of nepotism going on and some other, like, really weird dynamics. And I definitely, you know, did not handle them properly. And so it basically came down to my partner, which was. He was the. I was a junior partner in the business. I didn't have a controlling interest by any stretch. And he, you know, he said to me, he said, well, you know, this isn't working. And now we have a real problem on our hands, and we should have addressed this differently, you know, three months ago or six months ago. But now that we're here, you can't manage the office anymore because otherwise everybody's going to leave. And.

Yeah.

You know, and. And so the, the offer was, if you're willing to just go back to being in the field, we can salvage this whole thing and everything's great. And it took. It was. It was not an easy pill to swallow.

Right. Right.

But it was the right move at the time and wound up buying me the time that I needed to start Mac observer and Backbeat Media. And then here we are.

Right.

And I. But it was a learning experience. It wasn't necessarily a pleasant one, but. But I did go back to it. Yeah. So it can happen. Yeah, that's.

That's good. So, yeah, that's an. It's a. It's a challenging thing. It is. He's right. Rick is right. You know, it can be very frust. Talk about it. You know, maybe use this scenario when you're giving someone the opportunity. Hey, I don't want this to happen here. You know, here's the. Here's. Let's. I don't want to plan to fail, but if it doesn't go this way, let's do this, you know.

Well, it's kind of like, I mean, you know, we talk about partnerships and you've got a plan for. Or any sort of business relationship, whether it's truly a partnership or even just a joint venture together, you know, planning. We call it planning for divorce. But, you know, like you said, planning for what happens if it doesn't work out can actually help salvage things. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Especially like, you know, I've had lots of friends that have been in business with me or family members and, and I will say it really pays to have that discussion. So you can say, look, if this doesn't work out, I still want to hang out and have beers with you on Friday night. You know, we're not, we're, we're going to get above this or if, if we don't think we can do that, if it doesn't work out, let's just not do it because it's not worth it. It's not worth it.

That's right. Yep.

Very good. I'm not sure we think we have time for one more. Or do you want to save it for, for next time?

No, you're talking about Charles. Go ahead and read Charles. I think it's certainly in the same vein of these other two. So I think, I think you were smart to put it in here. And so let's just do it and we'll, we'll address it. We'll try and talk less.

There we go. That's tough for us. So Charles writes in and says, guys, I'm freaking out. I have a key employee that knows everything about my business. I think she thinking of leaving the company for another job. How do I protect all of my company information, clients, suppliers, etc. This stuff keeps me up at night. Love the show. Hope you guys can help. These are tough questions.

Yeah, man. Yeah, I mean, well, you can't protect all of that stuff. I mean, you can, you can have a, I mean, you know, we're talking about this after the fact, so certainly a potential lesson to learn is considering doing some level of non compete. But even that, it, it's not going to hold up. And frankly, you probably don't. It, it probably isn't worth your time to enforce it even if it's enforceable anyway. So, you know, I think the advice that I would have is continue to treat this person well. No, seriously.

Yeah, you're right.

Because what you don't want is them leaving upset with you because then any morals that they might have had that applied to, you know, not stealing your information and using it are gone. Potentially. I mean, it depends on who the person is.

But yeah, and I think you have to. You know, Charles, I would, I would try to take a step back and think about why they're leaving or why you think they're leaving. Maybe they haven't left. You know, I don't know where you're at right now with this, but what is it that is giving you the sense are going to leave and maybe you ought to, you know, sit down some time to Discuss it with them and maybe there is a solution that would keep that person from leaving.

But even if, even if not, just having that discussion might pave the path so that it doesn't sting as, I mean, it's, yes, it sounds, sounds like this person is integral to your business. So even if they, even if they left and didn't go get another job, I was going to say even if they just died, but I don't want to get about it. But seriously.

Right.

You know, so even if they left and there was no risk of them sharing this information with someone else, it would still hurt.

Right.

And so there's, you've got to separate those two things and just sort of deal with, okay, they're going to be gone at some point. Either you, you know, make them a partner and put golden handcuffs on them and, and you know, make it so that it's just, they're totally incentivized to stay no matter what, or they're going to leave and you got to deal with that. But yeah, I mean, you know, again, it comes, it comes down to showing them that you trust them.

That's right. And I think, you know, you mentioned non compete and you're right. Most of the time they're not enforceable. But what is a different document that is enforceable and is much more, you know, easier to manage is a confidentiality. Confidentiality agreement.

That's right.

And what we do at my businesses is we have that as part of the packet that you sign when you're starting your job here. And it comes with the health care stuff and the employee app and all that kind of stuff. And it's just, it simply just says, you know, you're going to be dealing with things like trade secrets and customer lists and supplier lists and that kind of thing. And those are confidential and those are the company's trade secrets. And, and you're not allowed to share those. And when that person, you know, if they decide to leave, there's another document that goes on with that and it's called an ongoing duty of confidentiality. It's very simple. It just says, hey, again, you've had access to all this information. We're reminding you here that just because you leave our employment, it does not mean that that ends and you can share that information. How enforceable is it? You know, that's, you could argue either way, it's only as much as you want to pay a lawyer to enforce it. But at least you're, you're putting it out there.

Yeah.

The other thing that We've always tried to do. And you can't do it all the time, but when you can do it, I would highly recommend it is. We always try to make a departure of an employee a positive thing, especially when they are leaving. Now if you're firing somebody, that's a little harder, but.

Yeah, yeah, actually I'd love to hear that.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a tougher one. And that just happens. And you have to have a discussion with your employees. You know, hey, this person left. Da, da, da. Wasn't working out. But when someone comes says, I'm leaving, that really should be a time to show your team and your employees how they are, you know, if they decide to leave, how they're going to be treated. And you really should treat those people with respect and wish them well and, you know, have a going away lunch. I mean, obviously if they were there, I mean, if they've been there any length of time and they get along with everybody, they're going to have these interpersonal relationships. And like you said, Dave, you know, taking that maybe a sting out of it, it's like, wow, you know, maybe it went badly for you. But gee, they, they really were nice when I went to leave. And that's important, I think, for people.

Yeah, yeah, it's huge.

Yeah, I would, you know, and it shouldn't have to be a negative thing. Everybody should see that you are, you're reacting in a positive way and that you really do, you know, wish the best for that person wherever they go.

No, that's good advice, man. And I think that's we that it's, it's been 36 minutes packed full of good stuff. So plenty, plenty to digest. Thanks so much for listening, folks. If you have a question, feedbackusinessshow.co is probably the easiest way to get it to us. You can find us on Facebook and you can find us on Twitter as well. But feedbackusinessshow.co we'd love to hear from you.

Take care, everybody.

See you next week.