Managing Employee Mistakes - Carrot or Stick?

The Small business show episode 382 for Wednesday, June 1, 2022. Greetings folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co, where we are small businessing every week. We're actually small businessing every day. We just do the show once a week. Our sponsors are sky-sale.com Rate Tracker where you can go to learn for free about what you are actually paying for your merchant account, for your credit card processing fees. It's an amazing service. It's something I Wish I had five years ago, 10 years ago, but I'm glad I have it today. Yeah. And a new sponsor for us, but certainly not something new is zapier@zapier zapier.com SBS where you can automate thousands of different business things. Use Zapier user Shannon.

Yeah, it's one of those things like text expander where you, after you set it up a few times, you're like, how did I live without this?

Yeah. I forget what it does for me because it does things that I don't have to think about anymore. So we'll talk more in depth about each of those in a moment. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. Ready to go?

Ready to roll.

June. We're already in June. Man, I'm excited.

It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am too. Life's been a little nuts. The markets are all over the place. It's a terrible time to be trying to get offers in for a business that we're trying to sell, but, you know. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like we missed our window, but. Well, everything happens for a reason. That's what I keep telling myself. Yeah.

Yes, it does. Yes, it does.

Yeah. It's all good. We'll figure it out. Yeah.

And sometimes plan B, it turns out to be better.

Yeah.

You know, B for better. So you just, you, you never know. And, and I'm sure it'll all come together.

It's going to be fine. It's just, you know, it's like, dang it, we were, we were close and then like, I mean, I, that's not to say that things aren't, aren't coming together. I, I don't know. But it, like, I, I can see what the markets look like. So it's like, oh, yeah, fundamentally the.

Business is strong and, but there's a big mental aspect of it. There's a lot of companies out there that businesses are in good shape and look good. But still their value has dropped by 60, 70%. Correct. But so there may be just a little adjustment time before people start thinking, okay, these companies are strong. I can, I can keep my money in them.

I can, I can put my money there. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's going to be the. We'll see. See what happens. It's been interesting, so we'll put it that way. Yeah, it's been fascinating. I can't wait to be able to talk about the specifics of what we've gone through and what we've learned and some of that through this process. Obviously there's lots that's still confidential and all of that. It's just not the right time. But yeah, there's so many things I want to share. Yeah, it's good. We did episode 382 weeks ago where we were talking about mailing lists and we got a great piece of feedback From Scott@feedbackusinessshow.co Scott says that last episode reminded me of an email I regularly receive from an online retailer that is impressive for its customizations. After buying a 2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon, one of the most customizable vehicles on the market, I searched for parts to customize my new toy. One of the online retailers I stumbled upon was Extreme Terrain xt. XT is part of another company which sells customization parts for pickups and SUVs, but I'm of course interested in their Jeep parts. To search for parts and ask for details about your specific Jeep so they know that they can show you only the parts that will fit the details they ask for, include the color so that when they show parts, the images include Jeeps which match your color. One of their services? Yeah, no, it gets even better, right? One of their services, he says, is to offer a wish list. If you're interested in the product, press the save button to save it to your wish list. After creating your account, XT regularly sends newsletters or ads. Their newsletter includes a header icon with the basic information about the Jeep I entered into the system. The email they send is customized to note that I own a four door JL Wrangler with an option to see any image in firecracker red. The color of my Jeep. Yeah, he said. Aside from news and other information, the email will include items on my wish list. If there's a sale, the email will highlight the sale price. If XT's has a spend X and receive Y coupon for a future purchase, the email will show me enough Items to receive the coupon. The email will link to customer images of builds that use the products in your wish list. A few weeks ago, he says, I had an email conversation with another Jeep owner who forwarded his email from xt. Since he owns a white Wrangler, the images in his email showed white Jeeps. When I purchase something off my wish list, the product is removed and I no longer see it in future emails. However, it will advertise related products. So he says. Trying to figure out what they were using. I perused the messages source and found a reference to richrelevance.com I don't know anything about Rich Relevance other than what I see on their website. It might be something to investigate. Yeah. So I looked at Rich Relevance here and they. I mean, this is their. Like, the XT has leveraged what Rich Relevance does. Now, obviously, Rich Relevance has to be deeply integrated with, you know, extreme terrains, shopping cart and all of that, so that they can do these customizations. But. But they have the smarts and the engine to be able to send out customized emails to people, which is amazing. Like, that's a big deal.

That is a big deal.

Yeah. It's pretty cool stuff. Very cool. Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Love it. I mean, it just makes, you know, it's just connecting with you on an entirely different level. Right.

That's it.

Yeah. That's huge.

Yep. Yeah. So it's richrelevance.com just like you think. But we also put the link in the show notes at businessshow co. Thank you, Scott. I love this. Yeah.

And now, so they got acquired and they're called Algonomy. Algonomy.

They're owned or. Yeah, yeah, Algonomy.

Oh, and they have a Shopify connector. Imagine that.

Oh, wait, of course they do. What a smart thing. Right? That way the integration is easier built right into your store. It's built right into your store. Yeah, man. You know Shopify, right. Like, that's. Yeah.

Great.

Smart stuff, man.

Yeah. Huh. They're being used. That's. It's a. Yeah. Go to the site, check it out. You'll see who's using them.

Yeah.

To do this stuff. And you'll go, oh, yeah, I shop there.

Yeah, great. Really smart. I'd love to know they don't have pricing on their website. That I can see easily. I would love to know what this would cost. My guess is it's obviously a tiered thing depending on how many customers you have and all that. But I would love to know what the minimum buy in Is right. What's it take to get rolling here?

Yeah, well, it is interesting. It shows on their Website they have 200 customers, which would lead me to believe it might be a little more pricey, super expensive, but I don't know that. I don't know. It's. It's a good. Somebody from there, they ought to reach out and let us know.

Yeah, well, yeah, as. As always, I will let them know we've talked about it here on the show and. And I'll ask them some questions. So. Yeah, Very interesting. I love this stuff. This is great.

Yeah, thanks for the. The question, Scott. That's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. What are we doing today here, Shannon? What's on deck for the rest of this episode?

Yeah, we're going to talk about. We're going to keep on this employee track. Last week we did all about, you know, creative, attract talent and bring people that want to come work for you. And I had a conversation with a friend of mine about what's the best way to deal with employees that make mistakes or there's problems that you feel like, wow, I need to actually kind of discipline or put in some controls. Do I use the carrot? Do I use a stick to everything? So I thought it would be worthwhile to talk about how to manage that. I mean, everybody screws up, right? So how do we minimize mistakes and at the same time build confidence in employees so they can continue to grow in the business? So I'd love to take a dive into that topic.

I would love to as well. The next thing that I would love to do, if it works for you, Mr. Shannon Gene, is tell everybody a little bit more about each of our two sponsors.

Yeah. Let's do it.

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Super. Yeah. Super useful.

Yeah, I know. I love it when we. I love. We actually have a great, great crop of sponsors these days. Yeah. Like, they're all services that we either currently use, have used, or would use if we were in the business where we, where they made sense for us. Like, it's. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It actually feels really good. I hadn't stopped to think about that in a little while, but those folks over at Backbeat Media are doing a good job bringing in the. The right sponsors for us. Yeah. All right.

All right, man. So we're going to talk about employees and mistakes and discipline and rewarding carrots and sticks.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and I always struggle, you know, with this because I'm this positive, very optimistic person. But you have to be able to deal with the negative. Right. How do you either adjust negative behavior to turn things around or, you know, shift people out that. That are kind of negatively impacting your. Your small business, especially if you have a small team. One person can be super toxic, Right?

Yeah, it's hard. I. I always take the blame for someone that. That is a bad fit. And I know that in the.

That's true.

At the end, it is 100% true. However, sometimes the responsibility that falls to me is not fixing them, but getting rid of them. And I. Correct. I hate that second part. Even if it's someone who absolutely deserves to be let go. I hate doing it. It's just not my thing.

I don't think anybody is. But it's important to figure it out and to try to come up with a system that you can address these issues to keep them from exploding out. Out of control.

Yeah, no, it's true. Because it can. It can sink the wrong employee or the wrong culture can sink your company. And one person can be that toxic, you know, influence that does it? Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure. So the, the. What, What I've always tried to do is, is, you know, create employees that are really conscientious and that it's not like they're not going to learn from. They're not going to make mistakes, but you want them to learn from those mistakes and try to shift the frame to make. Because, you know, everyone around is watching what's going on, and when you don't address mistakes, it has a real detrimental impact on the rest of the people. Right. Because they're like, man, this guy's, you know, really messing up this or doesn't follow directions is not doing all these steps that we're, we are all required of. So you got to address it. Yeah, it's real important.

Yeah. So I, I'm like, what is one of your, one or more of your favorite methods for addressing mistakes? I made an error with something at backbeat here. Sadie asked me a question. I told her, yeah, do it this way. And then I realized after it was finished, oh, I told her the wrong thing. Well, I thought what I was telling her was one thing, what she was hearing was another. And it wasn't her fault that it, it was truly my fault. And so, you know, in our staff meeting and this actually happened in front of, in front of the whole team, I just said, oh, hey, by the way, I effed up, you know that, that thing that we were. That you asked me about where I said yes, I should have said no. Here's what I meant to say, but did not articulate. But I think there's like to me it's that, you know, it's the same thing as showing up at a party and being a little bit self deprecating. Right. You know, it does, it shows people that, okay, look, if you're going to call out things that we do, you also call out things that you do. Like you're not perfect either, but somebody's got to hold everybody accountable and it's you. So you hold yourself accountable as well.

Yeah, yeah, that, that, that's a huge. I mean it's so important. And it also helps you to build trust with your employees when you recognize when you screwed up and you talk about it openly like, ah, you know what this. And it's, you know, it's. That philosophy is when you want to criticize, look in the mirror. When you want to give praise, look out the window. And I really believe in that. And employees, that when there's a sense of trust in your organization, I think you just, your people make less mistakes and they also, and maybe more importantly, when they do make a mistake, they meal. They feel more comfortable speaking up about it.

Right.

When something goes wrong because you want to know. Because especially if it's some kind of systemic problem that is happening that you, that you have to address. So I think trust comes first in all this stuff is creating that environment where you, you know, and a great way to implement that is, is really, you know, call yourself out when you, when you make the mistake.

Yeah, oh yeah, it's, it's just how it is. Like, and, and yeah, I guess that's the, that's the trick, right, is trust is make. Because you want. Everybody's going to make a mistake. We always say on the show, mistakes are our tuition. There are many mistakes I've made that in the moment, hurt deeply. I mean, like, terribly deeply. I get it. But looking back, it's like, well, I acknowledged that mistake eventually. I eventually moved past it and now look what I've done based on what I learned from that awful thing. And that, like, that's huge. So we want. We want our employees to be able to have the same opportunity to learn. And one of the best opportunities to learn is to have something up and then fix it or at least don't do it that way again. It's not fixable. Yeah.

Once you get that trust, it can be a kind of precarious thing. Right. Because everyone is. If a problem. Excuse me, If a problem happens, it's public that everybody sees what's going on. They're all going to look around to see how it's handled. And either a manager, supervisor or you as the owner, how you're going to handle it. It's really important. And, you know, like, one of the things. I know it sounds really obvious. Obvious. But just a reminder, don't discipline people or correct people in public. You can correct them if it's done the right way. But, you know, that trust is a. It can be precarious. So you want to pull somebody aside and go, hey, I noticed this. You know, maybe we. Let's try it this way. And how you. How you put it together. And that, that same trust is your managers and supervisors, they need to have it as well. So you're going to have to have some standards.

Right.

Because it's not all about how you do it. And developing those standards, I think, is one of the hardest things to do for me because so many unique, different things happened Right. During the day and problems come up. But how you hand. And maybe the standard needs to be this is how we handle problems. Right. Not every specific problem, but this is what you do. Yeah. Because everybody's personality is different. And your managers, your supervisors, whatever, they need a playbook to look at so they don't have to figure things out differently every single time. Because you're going to get some not so positive results if you leave that up in the air. Right?

Yeah, well, yes. Yeah. You need to address it all for sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

And back to your point of, like, what you do to get started. I think it's important to have, you know, you need to have an employee manual. I hated doing those. But you can get, you know, just search online. There's a ton of online services that can help you through it now. And a lot of them just do it by kind of interviewing. Interviewing you and also basing the manual on your unique state and what your laws are and that kind of thing. That's very important. So how you discipline and what happens should be a part of this employee manual. Right. Because then you can give that to your management manager, supervisors, hey, read through this. Because this is what we're going to do, right?

Yeah.

And this is what we're allowed to do. You may not be able to go up somebody and just go, you're fired. You know, hopefully you didn't jump. Right.

You probably can. But that is considered letting them go, not firing them. Yeah. And you will be on the hook for. For unemployment. Yeah, sure, right. Like, I mean, because in most states here in the US it is, you know, a employment at will, I believe is the term that's used, right? That's right. So if either party does not wish to continue this arrangement, it can be terminated. The difference is if you, the employer terminates this, and there is not just cause, then when the employee goes to file for unemployment, they will almost certainly get it, and then your unemployment rates go up. And that's just how it works.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And you know that manual, though, that everybody should get and everybody should sign that they've read through it. You know, I like to keep them as brief as possible. But if there are things that are important to your organization, like a dress code or what's your mobile device policy? Right. Are they, can they be on their phones? What's your, you know, don't leave it to them making assumptions or having another employee said, oh, they don't allow us to do this, or whatever. Put it in your book. And you don't have to be super lawyer. Is that a word? Lawyerly, you know, super rigid about how you do it. And, you know, I always love to have little, you know, adding humor to things really helps kind of release some of the pressure of it. And you can even do that in your manual. Just be like, hey, you know, don't be on your phone all day, you know, or something. Just, you know, however you want to do it. Don't leave it up in the air to speculation and this again. And your supervisors, managers can use it. But it all comes down to one other very, very Important point is, whatever system you come up with, all of your employees needed to, need to be treated the same way. Very important. Because it's just like with your kids.

You got to maintain consistency.

Yeah, you got it.

Yeah.

And if, just like your kids, if you're not doing that, your other people are going to notice it. Some people will take advantage of it, some people will be very upset. You'll lose that trust. And, you know, one of the things I have, you know, that I always remind myself, you can't let like a rock star employee that's super productive or whatever get away with things just because they're doing good in one other area. You have to be able to pull them aside and go, hey, we love how much you're getting done. But, you know, when you're talking to other people, it's not cool to say this or don't do this, or you're, you're 10 minutes late. Because I've had discussions where you're like, look, you're late in the morning. And then their response would be, yeah, but I get way more done than everybody else. Right.

Yeah.

That's not a, that's, that's not the answer. The answer, you know, you're late in the morning. If, if what is it? Do you need, you want to shift your work hours? I mean, I can talk flexibility and I can pitch that and explain that to other people because we're flexible with them too. But if you say you're going to be there at 8:30, you have to be there at 8:30. I don't care how much you're getting done during the day. So, yeah, everyone has to be treated the same.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that, that absolutely makes sense. I, I, so how do you, how do you deal with the person that, I mean, the, the first instance of it we just sort of talked about, right? You have the conversation, you push them, you know, you try to show them where the guardrails are and get them back on track. How do you deal with the, you know, what is the discipline path here? When you have to discipline someone, how do you do this? Like, I hate that part of it.

I do, too. So hopefully before you're at the point where you're going to make that discipline, you've done these exercises that we're talking about now. Is it a lack of training? Do they not know what they're supposed to do? Is it just their attitude that we need to focus on, or do they not know our policies? You need to ask yourself that because that's going to come up. When you go to discipline and you don't want to put your foot in your mouth and you're getting ready to discipline somebody and they're going to go, well, I had no idea. You know, I don't. I don't, you know, try to. So you got to do a little investigation.

I didn't know. Yeah, right.

Yeah. You got to talk to that person. It's like, hey, give me. Give me this scenario. You don't have to respond immediately unless, you know it's something where it's putting people in danger or whatever.

Of course you can.

You can do a little investigating and go, hey, tell me what happened here? And you go, great. Thank you for your feedback. I want to talk to a couple of other employees or whatever. If it's something like that.

Yeah.

And. Or if you see something like, in our case, I was in the technical field and somebody was just doing something where things were breaking, then I would, you know, do I need to talk to the employee, or should I go talk to their supervisor and say, hey, is this person qualified to do that? They seem to be having, you know, problems. So do your investigation. You know, I always try to do a verbal conversation the first time.

Okay.

I just. I'm hoping that that works. Right?

Yeah.

Hey, and I love the compliment sandwich. I don't know. I think it's very. It can be powerful. And the first is talking about, hey, you know, one of the reasons we hired you because you, you know, you had a good attitude or whatever, figure out what it is you like about that person or what they do good. And then in the middle, you want to hammer them for what they did wrong, go, look, we love that. But what's going on here? You know, when you're late from lunch every day or you're. You're talking disrespectful to your supervisor in the warehouse, and that's just not acceptable. What's going on with that?

Yep.

And then when you have. Then you talk about a little bit more, you go back and hit the compliment again and go, okay, great. You know, look, you've got a great opportunity here. We want to move you along a career path, and someday you could run the whole warehouse or this. And, you know, you've got. You want to have that conversation and squeeze that discipline in the middle if you can.

If you do it verbally, what you just described. You've talked about the compliment sandwich. We've talked about it before on this show. What you just described is perhaps the best example of that I've ever heard, because you really sort of spelled out the three parts of it and you did not downplay the middle of it. Which, for this conversation, was the most. Well, was the critical part. Yeah, it has to be.

You have to know it's serious at this point. You've called them. It's not just a comment you could make like, oh, oh, hey, do it this way. You've brought them aside privately, you're having this discussion. Tell them why they're great, why. Why you hired them in the first place, or what good things. Hammer them, and then, you know, give them talk about how good the future can be with them.

Yeah, no, I. Yeah. And just to not bury the lead here, you mentioned disciplining privately. Unless there was something that happened that was a safety concern, where you have to address it in the moment and there happened to be other people around, waiting until you can do it privately is the key to making this work, because then you can actually have a conversation. You might even be able to get someone to admit they made a mistake. Especially if your culture is such that mistakes are okay. Right. But having someone deal with that in public almost, oh, it's terrible. Well, you're going to just put them on the defensive even more than they might already be, and that's going to be terrible. Yeah.

And they're embarrassed.

It's embarrassed. Yeah, exactly.

They're already probably embarrassed because most of the time they know they made a mistake, the way they handled themselves, whatever their behavior or whatever they were doing. And so they're already a little embarrassed. And if you call them out publicly, it makes it even worse. And you've lost your opportunity to change the frame of the whole situation, to help limit their frustration and to walk away with a positive outlook of how things can be in the future when. If you call them out publicly and, God forbid, ridicule them or whatever, yell at them, that's just ridiculous. You've lost a great potential, and you could lose just a great future employee that way, too.

That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to make this situation worse. And even if you know that, okay, this is the third time or whatever, I'm gonna let this person go, you might hear that voice in your head say, you know, if I do this in front of the other employees, they'll know that I'm serious about it. Well, they'll know that you were serious. When that person doesn't show up at work anymore, you don't need them to see how you got there. They Just need to see the result and that's it. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah.

So the verbal thing first.

Yeah.

If it, if it doesn't work, you know, then you have to write it up because you need to document everything. Right. You're going down this road here, protecting yourself, protecting your other employees. And you know, you're going to write it up and go, hey, you know, this is what happened. This is, we've talked about this before. I'm going to write this up just as a reminder to you and to me. I'm going to put in your employee file so if it comes up again, we'll have this to refer back to.

Yeah, I like, I like to have this to refer back to. I've used that when creating contracts with people. But it's great for these kinds of things. That, that, that using that as the reason for documenting something is great. And I, it's, it's a good to use the word trick is wrong because it's not a trick. It, it actually is for that reason. But it helps, it helps diffuse the situation. Right. If you say, look, we're putting this in writing so we all have it to refer back to, it explains why at least one reason why you're doing it as opposed to we're putting this in writing for some nebulous reason, that can sound sort of ominous. Yeah, that's right.

Your permanent record.

Right. Yeah. When you say it that way. Yeah, it starts to become really nerve wracking. I mean, you say, look, I'm just going to put it here so that we both know we had this conversation. We both agree in this moment, this is an accurate reflection of this conversation for a contract. It's an accurate reflection of the things we've all agreed to. I know we all know them, but it's helpful for me to remember by writing it down and just, you know, using it that way. Yeah.

And if you, if you remember this is just another form of customer service, but you're dealing with an employee instead of a customer. The 2Tokens concept you can look up on businessshow.co it still applies. You know, you want to manage this person and you, you want to get on the same side of the table for them. Unless you just want to, you know, dump them and not have if it's really bad. But if you think there's a future there and they're valuable to the company and you, you know, people have a relationship with this person, you want to get on the side of the table with them. So when you're Writing that stuff up, you'll be, look, man, I'm sorry that we're at this point. I'm sorry.

Don't.

Don't apologize. No, back that up. Don't ever apologize. Just go, you know, you're. At this point, we're going to put it in the, you know, keep a record of it here so we can be reminded of it, like you're saying. And then, you know, some people do the second write up. I'm not sure I put that in my notes, because you certainly could do second write up, do something like probation. You know, by that time, I kind of feel that, hey, if this is the same thing, especially if it's an interpersonal issues, I think those are, you know, technical issues, like, I'm not doing my job correctly, I think you can give them a little more time.

I agree with that.

Interpersonality issues where other people are impacted and they're watching how management responds and they think this person's a jerk or whatever, or they're late all the time and nobody else is late. Why don't they call that person out? Those are trickier. And those are, I believe, more severe and require a faster. You can't get a chopping block quicker.

You got to get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've always thought of this. This is going to be terrible. And anybody that works for me that hears this is probably going to. I don't know. But the way I look at it is, what am I thinking in my head if what I'm hearing myself say is, what are you, an idiot? That's some technical problem. Right. You know, and technical is. Is a broad term here, but some, you know, functional issue where you don't understand how to do your job or how I would want you to do your job. That's maybe a better way to say it. Right. So if I'm saying in my head, what are you, an idiot? That's a problem that we can take a little bit of time to solve. If in my head, I'm saying, what are you, a jerk, That's a problem that needs to be solved quickly.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Very different.

Two very different things. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. And the. The latter can be far more damaging to your organization. So acting quickly is. Is important.

Yeah. So just ask yourself the question, are, are they an idiot or a jerk? And then you know how to respond.

Yeah, I like that. That's good litmus.

It is a good litmus test. It's a terrible thing. Like, you know, neither of these are positive terms but yeah, yes.

The, the, the thing, when you do a verbal discussion with the. You still need to go document that. You got to document everything.

So of course.

Because you and I forget, right? I'm like a squirrel guy and I got a million things going on. I have a pretty wide bandwidth, but I'm not really great with details and dates. So you, you need to put it in the. Your notes and drop it in their employee file. You're like, oh, on the, you know, on May 24, I talked to Joe about his attitude here and da, da, da, da, explained this and told him he had a good future here. And he told me he was going to. Okay, I'm going to, you know, commit to not doing that anymore and adjusting. Drop that in the file. Because the next time when you want to do that write up, you can remind yourself like, hey, we've already talked about this. Because, you know, they could say, well, you didn't. We didn't discuss this issue. You want to be confident, go. Yes, actually, we talked specifically about this. So document everything. Yeah, you know, it's not a fun thing to deal with, but it is really important and you want to protect your employees are really. They're your best asset. The most important thing to your organization is the people that you work with every day. And you have to protect them. And dealing with these disciplinary issues, especially if they're interpersonal, is critically important and falls on no one's shoulders but yourself.

It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because it's. They are the ones acting the wrong way. It, you, it, it ends with you. Because if your business ends, it ends with you. And that's just how it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, but we'd love to hear, you know, what works for you. Share feedback at BusinessShow Co or come to the small business support group. There's been a ton of activity there lately. It's terrific at BusinessShow Co Facebook. You can get in there and we.

Can all share some tips, hash it out together. Yeah, yeah, that's been great. I love the discussions that we've been having and because I get to learn things, which is, which is what I love. That's it. Yeah. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. As Shannon said, feedbackusinessshow.co. we would love to hear from you. Like we heard from Scott at the beginning of the episode. Thanks for that, Scott. It was awesome. Awesome. And check out our sponsors. Remember, we've Got Zapier. Com, SBS and Sky Sale. Com RateTracker. All good stuff. Keep living that charmed life. We'll see you next week.