Marcella Cox - Kindful Body

You know, we do business therapy for each other sometimes, Shannon, but we've never live done business live. I say we record everything, but we've never lived on business therapy for a guest. And today, not only do we do a little bit of business therapy for a guest, but our guest is a therapist. So it's all very circular. I'm not even sure how to make sense of it, Sharon. But it's fine.

Yeah, it's good. We've never had a therapist on the show and a really great guest this time, a forward thinker that's expanding out into some new areas and I'm really looking forward to learning about it because I don't know anything about that kind of business. So I'm excited to have them on the show.

Yeah, very, very interesting. Very interesting stuff. The first thing I want to do, though, is talk about our sponsor for this episode. It's our first sponsor for this episode because there's a second one that we're going to talk about at the end of the show. But our first sponsor for this episode is PDF Pen and PDF Pen Pro free from smile@smilesoftware.com podcast. These days, we're doing everything remotely, right? 100% of it. We're all working at home, basically. And PDFs are the thing that we're using to pass information back and forth. You might have to sign a contract from home that you've never had to do before. You might have always been able to do that in the office, but right now you're doing it at home. And PDF Pen is going to be the thing that is going to make this super easy for you. It's like the Swiss army knife. For PDFs, you can do all kinds of stuff, including, like I said, adding your signature to a document. In fact, you can even add it with like a nice little stamp so that it looks like official and. And it is official, and it's got the date and the time and it pulls it all together very, very nicely. But you can also redact things. I had to send some tax forms off for my son's college stuff and I needed to redact my Social Security number in them. Well, going through a PDF and just manually trying to do that, I don't even know how I would do that with PDF Pen. I opened up the PDF and PDF pen. I did a find and I typed in my Social Security number. No, I'm not going to tell you what that is. And then I clicked the box that says redact. And I did. I checked the. You know, redact all button and boom, it went through the PDF and it was finished. It took me less time to do it than it did to explain it to you. And this is the kind of stuff that you can do with PDF, so you gotta go check it out. Go to smilesoftware.com podcast. That's where you're going to find out all about it. And through the process, they'll ask you where you heard about it. And I think you know the answer to that question. So smilesoftware.com podcast and our thanks, of course, to Smile and PDF Pen for sponsoring this episode. All right, Shannon. Well, I think it's time. Yeah. All right. He's Shannon Jean. I am Dave Hamilton, and this is, is the Small Business Show.

I would say that there, there's a difference in being a clinician and doing it in person versus online. I find that I'm online, I'm working harder to read the, like, emotional cues of my clients and really being present. And so it's a skill that I'm, I'm continuing to strengthen.

So we all need help from time to time. You know, we work hard to help the small business community here each week to create a community to help one another get through struggles of starting running small businesses when crazy things happen like the times we're in right now. But what if your small business is all about helping people that are managing, managing other problems in their life? So today on the show, we're thrilled to have Marcella Cox, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder, founder and clinical director of Kindful Body, with us today. Thanks so much for joining us, Marcella. I'm really glad to have you here.

Thanks for having me on the podcast, Shannon.

Yeah, that's great. I'm very interested to learn about your business. I don't know anything about this stuff, and I'm hoping to get educated over the next half hour or so. And usually when we start, you know, I always say, oh, give me some background, but I want to start a little differently. Before we talk about your business, tell me kind of about the journey that you took to get where you are today. You know, I've known you for a long time and I've watched if you've taken on some new challenges, different things, different career stuff, different concepts for businesses. Was it always your end goal to kind of get to where you are today with a company like Kindful Body, or did, you know, the opportunities and ideas just kind of, you know, meander and unfold over time and you just adapted to them? How did it work?

Well, it's actually the, the latter. You and I have, we. We've known each other for many years now and so you've kind of watched my progression over the years. And this is actually, I consider this my third career. So after college, I started off in PR and marketing communications and I worked in that field for a few years. And then when my children were young, I took some time off to stay at home and be a full time mom. And that is a full time job, which I consider my second career. And then when I wanted to go back to work when my kids were a little bit older, I really had the good fortune to figure out what I really wanted to do to bring some fulfillment to my life. I found that becoming a psychotherapist was the perfect match to really help support others and connect with people in a more heartfelt way. As far as my end goal, I really thought I reached my end goal when I had a full solo private practice. But my phone kept ringing from people who were looking for some support. I looked for some ways to expand. That's why I started my group practice. It was really in response to the overwhelming need for qualified eating disorder specialists in my community because a lot of people are struggling with, excuse me, disordered eating and body shame, which is really prevalent in our culture, as you might be aware.

Yep, I would think so.

Yeah. And so when my phone kept ringing, you know, it's not surprising that not only was my practice full, but it turned out other eating disorder therapists in the area, their practices were full as well. And so there was really no one I could refer these people to who were struggling and wanting to heal. And that's when I got the idea to start my group practice. So I hired some other therapists in California and that. That also specialize in eating disorders outside of the area and started offering therapy using video conferencing. And so we, we really operate as a group, a virtual group practice. And I hope to continue to grow this business and which we call Kind Full Body.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I, I always want to point out, especially to people that have never had experience starting a business or creating something like that, from the outside, it always looks planned and oh man, you know, you got right to success and you did all these things. But there's always this, you know, very meandering path. Every guest we have on that, you know, makes that trip and so that's great. I appreciate you sharing that with us.

It's always easier to. I think Steve Jobs was Famous for saying, it's way easier to connect the dots going backwards than it is going forwards. Right. You can always say, oh, this path made so much sense. But it does in retrospect. And when you're doing it, not so much.

Absolutely, Absolutely.

Okay, so you talked a little bit about what Kindful Body does. What I'm interested in is how you structured this. So, you know, I think I know a little bit about it, but let's just pretend I don't. And, you know, how did you reach out and find these people? And how did you put this group together that you felt confident? I mean, this is such a sensitive area. Right. If you're bringing someone in, you really have to trust them. Right. And to turn, you know, recommend someone that's going to go and get some help. How does it work?

I appreciate you asking that question. Because we're specializing in a type of therapy for clients really struggling with their eating or their body. It was really important to me to have not only licensed clinicians, but also ones who have experience working with clients in eating disorders. There are some groups that actually specialize in this area. And so I reached out and said, look, I'm hiring. And they ended up, you know, I got several resumes, which was great, because then I got to interview a lot of people and see who I clicked with, who I thought would be good. You know, the interviews were done via video. And so I really used that as a. How did I feel with the person that I was interviewing? Would they be a good fit? Would I be happy with my clients going to them and also doing the. Not background checks, but checking references and getting some feedback from references on these clinicians. And so we really work as. As a team. And it's really important if you do have this issue with food or your body, that you do work with someone that specializes in the field. Because many clients come to me who have gone to therapists who aren't in this field or haven't had this training, and they unknowingly do some harm by saying some things to them. And so. So it was really important to me to have skilled people who could really meet the growing need out there.

Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. It's just every business I've been in, you know, like, if you make a mistake, you know, oh, I'm sorry, let me give your money back or whatever, you can't really do that. You know, it just seems like you have to be very sensitive to it. Now.

What.

Typical. I mean, what kind of a. I don't Know how you refer to it, but is it a caseload or what are the number. Like what's a typical therapist? How many people can they work with and handle at one time?

Yeah, and that varies therapist to therapist.

I see.

For me, I can scale up to 28 clients a week, and that's a lot. I think you get the best version of Marcella if I'm. If I'm seeing about 20 to 24 clients a week. And so. And each clinician is different on what they can handle and also, you know, other, other things that they're doing in their life. And really in our group practice, we're supporting each other, we're collaborating on and consulting on different clients. And when I started this group practice, you know, one of my guiding principles was to create a practice that I'd want to work for. And so really trying to create that environment even though we're virtual.

That's great. So the client gets the benefit of the collaboration too, not just that one therapist. So you guys share best practices and if you have situations you need help with, they can reach out to your within the group, Is that right?

Exactly. So every actually Thursday morning we have a case consultation call and everyone gets to share kind of where they're stuck and get some feedback. And it's really more of like a peer collaboration because we all have different experiences. Even though we all are trained in eating disorders, we have different experiences in how we might work with these clients. And so we, we give each other some ideas and. Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah, that's, that's a huge. I would think that's a great marketing message too, that you get the power of your, the specialized, you know, group in addition to your, you know, particular therapists. I didn't even think about that before, but I think that'd be great.

Well, that's a great idea. I might take that from you.

So. Yeah. So, you know, my all. Everybody I've talked to lately, their businesses are all, you know, just crazy right now because of this whole coronavirus mess that we're in the middle of. Has it impacted your business and have you had to adapt to service your clients and keep things going or how's it maybe hasn't impacted at all?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, because we offer teletherapy or virtual therapy or video therapy, we're really well prepared for when the coronavirus hit. And so we're really able to comply with these stay at home orders or social distancing orders in California because we're already doing therapy online and so we're able to support clients with mental health services in a really safe way during this time of crisis. And it's surprising. We're actually seeing an increase in people looking for help because of the outbreak. People are more anxious. There's a lot of grief and disappointment about your canceled life. You had all these plans and everything has to be put on hold or it's canceled. People's coping strategies are really being tested and they're struggling more with their disordered eating patterns or compensatory behaviors and body image struggles. And also being stuck home with, with family can be really exactly right. So you can have increased conflict in relationships. Yeah. So we've actually even started some online support groups to help people during this time of crisis. And I, I don't know if you guys know much about eating disorders, but I can share just a few statistics with you. But yet, according to the national association of eating disorders, 30 million Americans will develop a diagnosable eating disorder in their lifetime. So that's higher than the incidence of breast cancer, some of these other major diseases. And out of that 30 million, 10 million of these are men. And yeah, binge eating disorder is the most prevalent eating disorder. And it's often undiagnosed or misunderstood. And sadly, only 20% of those who develop an eating disorder will get treatment, which is really frightening because eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any mental health disorder after opiate addiction. And it's a treatable disorder and people will fully recover with support. And so it's kind of frightening that there isn't more public awareness about eating disorders and support for eating disorders. And these numbers don't even address the subclinical eating, disordered eating that we have in our country, like yo yo dieting or these restrict binge cycles or obsession with exercise. And we also see these in our practice and they still have, you know, similar kind of negative medical and psychological consequences that full blown eating disorders have. So.

Yeah, that's. Those are stunning statistics. I would have never guessed, you know, that there was that many and especially a third, you know, being men. Yeah, fascinating. Yeah.

I'd like to circle back to the online versus in person split. I mean, obviously right now it's all online. So I have two questions. I'm curious, what is the normal split between online and in person consultations? And then how do you market online? How do you go about getting people in the virtual door, so to speak?

Yeah, so I think the tide has been changing slowly and people have been becoming more and more comfortable with Getting health care online and the coronavirus has really pushed us in that direction. And so I would say in my practice, I have an in person and an online practice. I would say my split has been probably about 25 online, 25 online, and 75% in person. But I have to say all of my clients have transitioned to online, and they say it's just as good as in person.

Do you find it just as good as in person?

I would say that there's a difference in being a clinician and doing it in person versus online. I find that online I'm working harder to read the, like, emotional cues of my clients and really being present. And so it's a skill that I'm, I'm continuing to strengthen.

And you've.

And it's not.

This isn't your first rodeo with it either. I mean, the good news is you've been doing this even before you had to. So that's.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And to get to your question about marketing, you know, some, some of the things are really similar, right? Like you need a website to create awareness about your practice, but some are different. So, like, because of the ethics of our profession, we can't ask for recommendations of current or plastic on Yelp.

That's giving you a.

Yeah, I try and stay off Yelp, but. But, yeah, so, so we have, we have to adapt. And this has actually been a big learning curve for me because when I was in solo private practice, most of my clients came from referrals from psychiatrists or doctors or other therapists who knew about my specialty, and so they would send clients my way. And now that I have a group practice, I'm looking at social media as a way to let people know about our services. And social media wasn't around when I started my career a long, long time ago on PR and marcom. And so I'm learning how to market on this medium. I'm learning this 80, 20 rule, you know, 80% useful content versus 20% marketing for your business. And this is a switch for me because before I was just using social media as a way to provide useful content. And I, I've, you know, now realize, oh, I can actually market on social media as well.

No, that's good. That makes sense. So as far as, like, the video part of it, I mean, is it just, can you scale it as much as you, you know, how large can you make this thing is? And is that your, you know, kind of where you're headed now is bringing in new, you know, licensed therapists or Clinicians to service more and more people, or are you still trying to work? You know, I really can empathize with your comments about connecting on the side of things versus sitting in a nice, quiet office. You know, I think that's got to be a big challenge, but can you just keep making it bigger and bigger?

Yes, yes. I mean, one of. One of the limitations is. And I would need to, you know, probably listen to your podcast to find out more information on this. But. But if I were to. Right now we're. We're just operating in California, but if I were to take it to possibly other states, I would have to find licensed clinicians there, and would I have a license to operate in those states? And.

Right.

You know, we kind of get into some of that. The more legal.

Yeah.

You know, setting up a corporation and yeah, it gets a little bit more complicated. But, yeah, conceivably I could continue to grow this and hire more clinicians and. Yeah.

And are these folks contractors to you? Are you hiring employees? Because I know there's a lot of that, especially in California, going on right now with some of the nutty legislation stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So they are actually employees. So I've had to do all the things, getting an employment lawyer to help me with offer letters and employee handbooks, et cetera. And so. And I have a payroll service. And so, yeah, they. They are employees. And with that, you know, it's also in line with me creating a practice that I'd want to work for. So I'm offering, after six months, my employees can get like a 401k. And that's great. Yeah, yeah.

I've done all that stuff. And I, as part of me is. I'm totally impressed that you're doing it, and the other part of me is cringing about, you know, but going through it. But it is awesome. And that great place that you want to work, that I think is the secret to success. And I. I know you'll be, you know, very successful at it.

Well, thanks. I might talk to you offline about that. Cringing.

Yeah. You know, there's so. It's like everything else. There's, you know, pros and cons, all that stuff.

So you can send your questions into us and we'll answer them on the show. Feedbackusinessshow.co. that's right.

That's per. That's perfect. So one of the things I would think in your business, and maybe I'm totally wrong about this and you can tell me, but, you know, we talk about optimism, positive, all the time and how that just, you know, helps you really persevere through a lot of the challenges in, in starting and running a small business, you know, as a business related to and as a therapist yourself that works with other people's problems and has to internalize that, you know, what tools and techniques do you use, you know, to stay positive and, and, or do you have to compartmentalize things, you know, so you don't get bogged down? Or is it since I'm not a therapist, I mean, is it just on an entirely different level that doesn't have that kind of impact?

Yeah, yeah, I love that question and I just want. Yeah, there are some heavy days for sure. And the most important thing for me is to have my own support and self care. And I've also found for me like this idea of compartmentalization really doesn't work because it doesn't address the feelings that I have in the moment. And if I can spend a few minutes after sessions or at the end of my day with the parts of me that were really affected with my clients experiences and give those parts some attention and care that they need, often only takes a few minutes. But then it feels more validating to me and that I'm kind of understanding what my experience is. It allows me to really be more present in my daily life and my relationships. And I really think it's important for people to understand that the way our brains developed, we're really feeling beings that think as opposed to thinking beings that feel. So we need to give our emotional inner world some attention in order to be happy and present and stay positive.

Yeah, no, that's, I think it's great advice. It seems like it's something that you just have to be aware of and you've got to continue to work at it. Right?

That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Scares the heck out of me. Okay, so one of the things we talk about on the show with every guest is we talk about mistakes. And you know, we're just, we're really big fans of mistakes. I, I am. Particularly because I've made so many. I know Dave hasn't, but the, the, you know, they teach us so much, you know, especially when you get a chance to look back on them and you get a little distance, you know.

They'Re great, they're great when you're a little farther away from them, that's for sure.

Yeah, that's a key part of it. Yeah. And I mean, what would you say is your best mistake? You know? What, what mistake did you make? That stuck with you and taught you a really valuable lesson as you built, you know, kindful body or just as you moved along in this, this path, you know.

Yeah, I, I think mistakes are great growth opportunities as well. And since my practice is only a few months, less than a year old, I'm sure there'll be many growth opportunities ahead of me.

Framing in advance. I like it.

Best mistake.

You just share one doesn't have to be the best.

But maybe I can share a current struggle. Well, yeah, I'll share a current struggle. And maybe I can get a little feedback from you guys.

Business therapy.

That's right. That's right. So I just hired two new therapists right before the coronavirus pandemic hit. And I have this concern about keeping them engaged and interested and working for me as opposed to. Since there's so many clients out there that are looking for help, as opposed to like taking on clients on their own doing, you know, doing solo work. And so, yeah, I'm wondering if you have.

You allow them to do solo work?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So some of them have, have, you know, their own practice existing.

I see. I see.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. And I guess that, that seems like an ongoing thing that you'd have to really engage with like at your Thursday, you know, powwow with everybody is, you know, maybe just putting it out there. How can we work together to be sure that our focus is, you understand, you want to take care of your existing clients and that kind of thing. But for the growth of all of us and the success of all of our futures, how do we nurture this new entity here, this new group that we want to grow and take care of us for a long time.

I like that you're doing your Thursday meetings, but maybe with these folks, it's. And maybe with all your folks, with every. I mean, with everybody sort of now being, you know, I don't want to use the word trapped, but choosing to stay at home more than going anywhere else. It might be helpful to have gatherings, virtual gatherings, more frequently than just once a week. You don't want to overdo it and monopolize people's time, but. But giving them that sense that they belong to a family. And here's. We help each other and we help each other with this, but we're also there for each other and just increasing the frequency of those check ins. We've been running a virtual business here for 20 years. And those, especially now, those quick little either daily or every other day Check inside really seem to kind of, you know, build that and maintain that bond for everybody. And everybody seems to really like it. So that's, that's one thing. The other thing that comes to mind is send them something nice every now and then. You know, send them a, I don't know, a sweet treat or. Well, maybe that's not so good in your business, but maybe something different, you know, I don't know. Just show them that you're thinking of them. What's that?

All foods fit in my foods.

There you go.

That's your attitude, right?

Yeah, I like it.

That's good. That's good, right? Oh, those are great suggestions. I really appreciate, appreciate that feedback.

Yeah. Unique business. It's. It's unique. So I mean, what's next? You know, we talked about expansion. I mean is, you know, after we turn around, we get, you know, if we, as we power through this and have this big economic, economic expansion that I'm expecting, are, are you really gonna, are you focused on growth or. I know you just hired a couple new people or are you trying to get your internal processes and everything fig it a balance?

All, all of that? Yeah. So. So my goal is to continue to grow the group practice and, and while doing that, reduce my clinical work so I can dedicate more time to the group practice as well as I have some ideas, actually I've scripted out some ideas for online courses of some content I teach my clients on making peace with food and your body and, and in this, you know, it's really overcoming, you know, as, as we get life as nor, you know, our normal lives and the months to come. It's also really overcoming the challenge of people wanting to go back to in person therapy and getting the message out that that research shows that online therapy is just as effective as in person therapy. And there's also this idea of this disinhibition effect that happens on online therapy. And, and this effect takes place when someone's doing therapy from the comfort and safety of their own home. They tend to go deeper, the work goes faster, it takes a shorter amount of time to make gains. We can't use the client testimonials, but they do tell us that when they give online therapy a try, they're glad they did and they prefer it for its convenience. As I grow my career group practice, it's really. How do I get that message out there? So we get more people interested in online therapy.

Yeah, I think there's some articles and content creation in your future. I can see it coming up on LinkedIn and all these kinds of things, because what you just explained, I would have no idea. So educating people to. That seems like a really important message for your business.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay, so I want to ask you something. We, we typically ask, you know, kind of what advice you give people, you know, starting. But I want to put you on the spot a little bit because I know we've had your husband, Tim Cox, he's been on the show with Zing pr. You guys are both awesome. But I want to ask you, you know, you guys are a power couple.

Right.

And you work together. Worked separately, but I'm sure a little together in the background, you know, to the, to the spouse and the. The partners out there working together or kind of, or around each other. And I'm sure you're giving Tim feedback and I'm sure he's getting feedback. You know, do you have a bit of advice for that kind of relationship and how you've made it succeed?

Yeah, that's a great question. I. There's a balance between your independence and togetherness that I find, you know, being being open and receptive to support one another and also allowing that person to, you know, they're the expert in their field. So deferring to them, I think is important. Yeah. And treating each other with kindness and respect. Right. We sometimes can treat our loved ones not as kindly as we treat others. So, yeah, making sure that you're treating. Treating your loved ones with kindness and respect, I would say that's really good.

I'm gonna. When we have you back on this show in a few years to give us an update, I'm gonna ask you about the comment you made about doing less therapy and getting more involved in the managing and running of the business. And I'm going to ask you to come back and tell us how that worked out.

Okay.

I have some thoughts on it, but I'm not going to bring it up now. We'll wait like 36 months and then we'll come back to it. I'm going to make a note. So, you know, thank you for coming on and telling us and educating us about, you know, eating disorders, body image. Your business, Kindful Body, it's a fascinating business. And, you know, I've had a smile on my face pretty much the whole show, which always tells me it was good. You know, what's the best way for our listeners to connect to you and to learn more about Kindful Body?

Oh, sure, sure. Well, I have a website. It's kindful body.com so it's like mindful but with a K and then the word body and it's all one word. And then I'm on all the social media channels, Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, Kindful, body. And you can also email me marcelaindfulbody.com yeah, perfect.

And we'll also put all those links in the show notes and all that kind of stuff like we usually do. If you have questions also about the show. Feedbackusinessshow co. Marcella, thank you again for coming on. Dave, if you have anything else or.

No, this fantastic. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Marcela, this is awesome.

Thank you for inviting me to be a guest and this has been great because it's given me the opportunity to really reflect on my journey and it's been a pleasure to share it with you.

That's great. Well, we appreciate it and like I said, we'll check back in a couple, two or three years. It's always a good time.

Okay.

All right, take care.

You too.

That was awesome, man. A lot to learn from that guest, Marcella Tele, you know, just from the therapy standpoint of it and then the business and moving into the video, you know, telemedicine, teletherapy. It's fascinating.

It is, yeah. It, and it, it. I was, I was. She's a pro, so I wasn't surprised, but I was glad to hear her identify that. Yeah, she's got to work a little bit harder to focus on those cues and things like that. That, that's the thing that gets lost when we're, you know, two dimensional behind a camera kind of thing.

But that seems to be the challenge with, for all of us, for all of connecting remotely now more and more. But obviously, you know, especially with a therapy in a very, you know, sensitive area like that. But it really, you know, brings up a great point about focusing and learning, you know, how to overcome those things.

Yeah. How to, how to deal with it all. Yeah, yeah. Great stuff.

Very cool.

Hey, I mentioned in the beginning of the, the show that we had not one, but two sponsors. Well, that's true. Our second sponsor is us. We.

That's right.

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Check it out out at BusinessShow Co Guides. That'll get you right to this first one. Eventually, that page will have everything on it. But since we just have one now, that's going to bring you right to it. So you can just get it, buy it, and then please go. Leave us a five star review. We would love that. Makes a huge difference. I know we say that all the time because it's true. Helps for your business, it helps for ours. So thanks so much for, for listening. You know where to find us. Go to BusinessShow Co guides. That's our, that's our request for this week. And we'll see you next week.