Outsourcing Success with Curt Zweier of C & C Computer Solutions

Hey, folks, welcome to another episode of the Small Business Show. How you doing, Dave?

I'm good, man. How are you, Shannon?

I'm good. I'm very excited about this show because it's all about outsourcing, which I've used a lot in my small business career. And we have a great guest today.

I can't imagine what if I, if you took outsourcing away especially for like programming and server maintenance and stuff, my business would be, businesses would be radically different. It, it, it really, it's not always the right answer, but it often is the right answer.

Sure. Yeah.

And there, and there's, you know, it's either, like I've mentioned before, I've had great success at it, but I've also failed miserably at it. So this will be great. I'm looking forward to, to hearing and, and like all the show shows, I always learn the most. So it's going to be great.

That's what you think. There's someone that disagrees with you and it might be me. It might be somebody out there. If you folks say about this feedback at BusinessShow Co is, is where you can let us know because we'd love to hear from you, but I think it's time. Right, man, let's go.

I've said it a couple of times of, of, you know, look at your outsourcer. Like, like it's a software developer, somebody you hired. You know, so, so, you know, in the beginning, you wouldn't want to give them the super sensitive stuff or the super difficult stuff. But, but hopefully, you know, in a relatively short period of time, just like you would with an employee, you're gonna, you're gonna grow to tr. And yeah, so I think, you know, I don't, I don't think there are any limits. I mean, you got to be cautious, you got to be smart about what you do, especially in the beginning. But, you know, if the guy's showing up on time, he's working hard, he's getting stuff done and he's, and he's, you know, he's doing his job, then you give him more responsibility. Right. So, yeah, I, I don't, I don't think there's anything, I mean, we certainly have, I certainly have customers that at this point want to pull away even further than I want to let them.

Foreign. We talk about outsourcing a lot here on the Small Business Show. Back in April, in fact, we focused on using outsourcing as a resource for delegating. And in last week's episode I shared a little bit of frustration about being both impatient and expecting perfection when using outsourcing for a project, specifically my server move recently. Today we are fortunate to have Kurt Zweir of CNC Computer Solutions on the show to provide some deeper insight into the whole world of outsourcing. Kurt founded CNC back in 2004 to focus on offshore managed software development. And we're so excited to have you here, Kurt, to educate us about running an outsourced small business. Thanks for joining us, Kurt.

Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to talking with you guys today.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this is a little. Yeah, this is a little different for us because we were going to do an episode on outsourcing anyway and just Shannon and I and then was like, wait a minute, we should bring Kurt into this conversation. I'll say at the outset, I certainly have not yet used your company, Kurt. I don't think Shannon has. It would be ironic.

I have not. No.

Right. Very coincidental. So we haven't, we haven't worked together, but obviously we've all had some, some outsourcing experience. And of course, Kurt, you are the one actually making it happen. So let's, let's start at the start. What prompted you to create CNC 16 years ago?

Yeah, so, you know, I guess I got involved because, you know, it was, it was a crazy time. You know, the Internet was just going, going nuts and you know, Amazon and ebay were, were making money hand over fist and connected via the Internet for a lot of, a lot of different products. And unfortunately at the time it really didn't seem like anybody, but some of the really large companies could take advantage of the global market, the employment market. So there's a big opportunity there and I was excited to get started on that. And I happen to actually have some, some contacts offshore as well. So things kind of, you know, fell together for me.

Got it, got it. Okay, so you, but you are, you're a software developer by, by training and also by, in practice. Right. I mean, that is something that you've done with before, the offshore thing, is that right?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, at the time I had, I had been a software developer for many years already and, and had been, you know, moved into a management role and was, was at the time responsible for a relatively large team. And so we were, before I started the company, we were looking at my previous employment place. I was looking for ways to expand the team and save money. So I got into it from that.

Perspective as well, got it, Got it. Okay, that makes sense. Go ahead, Shannon. Yep.

Yeah.

So what was the impetus? I mean, were you. Because looking at your LinkedIn profile, looks like you've done. You have a great talent stack and a diverse revenue stack. You have things going on different, you know, things with different companies. What was the. The impetus that said. That said in your head, hey, I could. I could start this thing and. And go out and build a company, because that's a big step, and we talk about it a lot on the show. There's a lot of people that, hey, I'd love to do it, but there's less that actually do it.

You know, I think it's. It was a couple different things that happened at the same time. You know, I think the things were slowing down, and I wasn't getting as challenged as I could have been at the. At the company I was working for. And like I said, I had some contacts already in the offshore area. So, you know, I got involved with some people I met in Egypt, as a matter of fact, and it quickly became aware that at that time, they were in a really great place. The government had invested in education, had realized that that was the way to help them succeed better in the international market. However, the companies really hadn't jumped into Egypt yet. India was very large in the outsourcing at that time. But. But a lot of the other, you know, you didn't hear about Belarus and some of the other places in Eastern Europe, and you didn't hear about anything in the Middle east, and it's spread everywhere now. But back in that time, I happened to get involved kind of as a strange occurrence with some people in Egypt and found that it's a great place to be. So I had a couple things that kind of made the decision feel comfortable for me, and so I took the plunge.

That's cool.

That's great.

Okay. Okay, so. Okay, so this is one of those scenarios, Shannon, where Kurt, on the show, I point out all the time the things that I do for myself and. And am not smart enough to realize, hey, I could turn this into a business. Thankfully, you're smarter than me. I've outsourced stuff plenty of times. I never thought, hey, I could. I could create a business facilitating this for other people that don't have the same skills as me, but thankfully, someone like you is here. So that's really good.

I appreciate the compliment. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely, man. Yeah, absolutely. Scale of projects, like what. What if people are looking for this? What's the right thing to go to? For, for cnc. Like what, what kind of scale are the types of projects that you work on? The sizes?

Yeah. So we're all over the map. You know, I think there's, it's. Generally it's. A company gets to a point and pretty much every company gets there who has a software product where we have more ideas than we have people can implement them. And of course cost is always an issue. Right. So you have to, you're always going to have more ideas than you have dollars to throw at those ideas. But you know, I think, I think people get to a point where they're, where they can identify. These are things we really, really need to have and we need to find some way to make it happen. And, and a lot of times outsourcing is, is the best way to get that done.

Sure.

You know, it can be, you know, cost effective. It can be, it can be hap. It can happen very quickly. You don't have to go looking for, you know, if you want a team of three or four, doesn't have to be a team of 10 or 20, but even a team of two, how long to find the right two developers out there to do what you want to do? It could take you a while to find those people. And so, you know, getting somebody on board in a week or two would be a great thing. And then of course, you know, we have the cost, the cost savings as well, which is it, which is a big deal. It helps you get done more with less. So I would say that, you know, I generally, I wouldn't recommend that you make your decision to outsource or not based on the size or the amount of work that needs to be done. You know, I think it's, there's, there's a lot of different, different things that fit different companies.

Yeah, I would agree with, that's a good way to say that because for me, the stuff that I can outsource, at least at the get go, if you're starting with outsourcing, needs to be, in my opinion, needs to be something that can be somewhat compartmentalized where you can say, okay, go and do this thing for me now. Over time you may find that your outsourcing partner gets more and more ingrained in your business. And that can be a great thing because then you can have sort of this ongoing thing. But, but, but yeah, you know, compartmentalizing for that, especially for that first project, to me at least, seems to make a lot of sense. Is that kind of what you do too?

Yeah, I, I totally agree. And you know, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, I, I would say, you know, treat your outsourcer like you would treat an employee. You know, you hire somebody new, you wouldn't throw, you know, some big huge crazy thing at them on day one. Right? You're going to get to know them a little bit, let them learn your business and it's the same type of thing. And I think the relationships that work really well are those where the company treats the outsourcing company as an employee. Treat them like one of your own dream, as a member of the team and expect them, the outsourcing company to treat you like an employer, to show up on time every day for work. That's what you expect your developers to do. This is a new developer, even maybe a couple of developers. But expect them to show up on time every day. Expect them to record in expecting to do those things that you expect from a, you know, from a, from a regular developer.

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

That's really good advice.

That's really good advice. Yeah, don't just, and, yeah, and don't just let them sort of run free on the project you like you would with a developer. Check in regularly and make sure things are moving along. Don't just wait for the finished product to show up.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I would go further than that. I would say that, you know, you can't, we all. One of the, one of the pieces of advice I would give to anybody is, you know, you, the communication that you have with your, you know, outsourcing companies got to be, it's got to be tight and it's not all you, you know, it should be, it should be a two way street. You know, we, when we work with customers, well, you know, we take advantage of the agile approach which we can talk, you know, have different conversations about. But, but you know, that methodology, I'm totally bought into it and the standards that they lay down and the level of communication that they have built into that whole methodology is awesome. You know, and so, you know, you should be talking to those people. You can't throw something, you can't do the I'm going to throw it over the fence method, see what happens in three months. That, that never works. It doesn't work with your own employees. It doesn't work without sourcing. It doesn't work with anybody. So yeah, I agree completely. You got to, got to stay involved.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that's, that's good advice. But, but you, you provide some level of that there, right where you, you are you providing the interface sort of between at times between the client and, and the programmers. Right. I mean, I, I think you probably get out of the way sometimes too, because if that's the right path. But yeah, totally, kind of.

We made up a name, we call them the Software Solution Specialist. And every customer gets assigned one of those guys and that guy's job is to be that liaison. So basically what he has to do is he has to make sure that on a regular basis, multiple times a week or once every two weeks at the least, that he's talking to the customer and saying, hey, here's what we're working on and here's what we've done. And are we still on the same track? Let me show you what we did in the last two weeks. Again, kind of following the Agile methodology, where we go in one or two week sprints, work for two weeks at a time and then show the customer, here's what we did. Is this what you asked for? Are you sure we're on the right track? Let's make sure that, that we're building something that your customers are going to pay money for. Because in the end, if you guys can't sell this, you're going to run out of money and we're both going to lose. Right? So, you know, we're, our success is tied together. So, so yeah, the Software Solution Specialist guy is, that's his, he's there for you anytime, anywhere. You have a cell phone number, that's great, give him a call anytime you want. And, but again, I think it's one of those things where it shouldn't be on the, you shouldn't, as a company who's outsourcing, you shouldn't feel like you have to be the one to do all of the work. You shouldn't have to say, hey, well, how's it going? How's it going? And did you get this done? Did you get that done? And reminding them about deadlines and stuff like that. There should be a give and take. Just like again, using the thing I said before about that, that good software developer, the guy that you really like, you don't have to bug him to say, how's it going? How's it going? How's it going? You know, he tells you when he runs into a problem, he tells you when he got something done and he needs the next task, doesn't go away for weeks at a time. So that, you know, that's the kind of relationship that you should look for. If you're going to outsource. And it's certainly the type of relationship that we provide and foster with my company.

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Yeah, so, Kurt, I've done quite a bit of outsourcing over time. Not sure, you know, some have been successful, some haven't. A lot of what you're talking about, communication and that, that follow through really hits home with me. One of the things that a question I wanted to ask you, it was about the kind of the business processes, how the business functions and works. And what I mean by that is it is important for the programmers to understand those processes of the company they're working for. Or is their technical skill the most critical part, you know, to make things successful. How do you handle that?

Yeah, so that's a good question. And I think, you know, in, in a lot of cases, every individual developer doesn't need to know everything that's going on business wise. Sure. But, but it's certainly somebody needs to. Right? Somebody needs to be paying attention to that. Because in the end, like, like I just said a few minutes ago, you know, our success and our company's success are tied together, right. Customers and, you know, we're tied together. So somebody needs to be, Cindy needs to be making sure that, that everybody's happy and, and so that's our, you know, our software solutions specialist guy does that and you know, he's going to be the person who's responsible for making sure he understands how your business works and that they were doing the right things and he questions things. You know, I think one of the things that I, that I see a lot really, you know, a huge appreciation from the customers is, is when, when Someone, you know, one software solutions specialist calls them and says, hey, you know what you told us to do, you know, feature A this way, but we got, you know, we're doing it, we're doing the same thing, or we see it on the web all the time. And most people aren't doing it that way today, they're kind of doing it this way. So what do you think? You know, so showing that we're thinking about this a little bit, we're just not blindly following what we're asked to do and that we do understand what you're ultimately going to do with the software and how it fits into your business is really important. Yeah. And so we definitely don't want to lose that. So to answer your question, I don't think that every developer needs to know it. Certainly the good ones start to learn it anyway. You get involved and they start to figure it out and they're in tune with it. But our software solutions specialist guy, that's one of his main roles there, is to make sure that we're on the same page there.

That's great. Yeah, I've just had that before where I may think I know what I want. Well, in my head. But as you get down the line, you want someone, one that's smarter than you are in, in that particular, you know, area to tell you, hey, this, this is not the, the best way to do it. We, we would suggest doing it this way and sometimes I, I've had that happen in the past where it doesn't happen until you're done and then you go, oh, wow, we, we, maybe we shouldn't have gone down that road. So that, that's awesome.

Yeah. And you know, sometimes you get tunnel vision too. You know, you're focused on the same thing every day and it's nice to have a different brain just to look at it. You know, it may not be that, that they know it necessarily any better than you. They just look, you know, came out from a different angle or something and there's, there's always value in having another brain that's, you know, thinking about the end game.

Well, that is true in both directions. Right. I mean, it's absolutely true to have, you know, try and explain what you want to your programmer and have them explain it back to you and maybe offer, like you said, some, a different perspective on it. The same is true when someone's stuck in a, you know, if your programmer gets stuck in a, you know, a rut on something like, I can't make this happen, let me Tell you what's going on and ask. My advice to folks is ask them, tell me what's going on, what's the problem? What are the problems that you're running into? And sometimes just by nature of talking it out that that problem can get solved very, very quickly in a way that it might not otherwise.

So it sounds like you're a software developer.

I've done a little bit. Yeah, exactly.

It sounds like you are. Yeah. Because I mean. Yeah, so I agree completely. I am, like you said from the beginning, I am a software developer by trade. And, and there's no question, there's, I can't tell you countless times run into a problem, just the act of talking it through with someone else, you go, that's what I got it now.

I got it now. Your audience doesn't necessarily need to understand every nuance of what you're explaining to them, but the effort of trying to break it down and explain it to someone that wasn't there while you were writing the code can be hugely valuable in those scenarios. Yeah, yeah.

And I would say you being a software developer before you did this and during is a huge competitive advantage or, you know, strategic advantage, because so many of the folks that I've dealt with in the past, they're in the outsourcing business.

Right.

So they're coming at it. So it may take you longer, if at all to hit that point where you know, you're having that, that dialogue, so.

Yep, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's, that's all our software solution specialists, those guys, class of people that we have, all of them are developers by trade, don't do any software development, actual coding anymore. They do like architecture and stuff like that and they're good English speakers like me. I am a software solution specialist. That's my role at the company today. So I do it. And so it's talking to the customers and then taking that customer goal vision or even spec level information and delivering it to the, to the development team to make sure that, you know, and talking through with them, making sure that they fully get it.

Yeah, yeah. What a great idea to offer because it can be. You know, we're always, whenever we talk about outsourcing on the show here, we're always trying to show people that it's not a scary thing to do. But there are unknowns and, and there are many, many small business owners out there that would very much benefit from using some offshore development teams and effort, but no way that they would be comfortable actually engaging directly with those teams and making that happen. And so I think it's brilliant what you're doing. I think it's great.

Yeah, I get it. It's really tough to. To take that leap sometimes, you know, and again, I think it comes back to if you can find an outsourcing company that you can treat like an employee and they treat you like, you know, like a good employee would treat their boss, it makes life a lot easier, and you feel a lot more comfortable, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So, Shannon, you usually ask everybody this question, but I'm going to take it today because we are huge, and I'll probably screw it up, which is sort of ironic. We're huge fans of mistakes here on the Small business show because we've made so, so many of them ourselves, but they're so valuable in terms of teaching us things and all of that. So we always like to ask, what would you say is one of your. We used to say favorite mistake. But, you know, what's a highlight mistake? Or, you know, if you've only ever made one, then that would be your favorite mistake. But what's. What's. What's a mistake that stuck with you and taught you a valuable lesson in your business here.

Cool. Yeah. So, you know, I would say it's probably, you know, the one that really stands out is the value of customer service. So, you know, it's, you know, back early on. Yeah, it just. There's so many. Every advertisement, every commercial you see, the cliches just fall out of, you know, we're the best. The best customer service. We do this, we do that. The customer service is in every advertisement that you see. And it's. I guess you just kind of get dull to it, you know, and so it wasn't one of those things that I thought to emphasize when speaking to customers early on and when speaking to my employees early on, that customer service is that important. And, you know, and then you walk into a big home improvement store and you buy a ceiling fan, and it's got missing parts. When you get it home and you bring it back and they say, okay, no problem. Just go get another one off the shelf, and you're good. And you realize that, you know, making the customer happy easily, it's not a fight. They didn't ask you, all right, did you drop it on your way to the car? Did you break us something while you're unpacking? They just say, go get another one. Right. It's just so easy. And, you know, I learned that early on that, you know, when A customer says, oh, this isn't what I said. It doesn't make sense to say, well, no, you did, and let me go find the email. And what? Okay, we'll fix it. You know, just. We'll make it right. I'd say that's probably the biggest thing. And it's not just for software development. It's a small business. It's for everything. Right.

We always say huge.

Yeah.

And we always say on the show here, every business is the custom customer service business. So it. It's. I know. Well, Shannon and I are smiling sitting here.

Yes. I can play this for every episode, what you just said, because that is exactly, you know, digging up things and trying to show them that they did this. Or it's just a losing. You've already lost at that point.

Right? Yeah, yeah, I had it. I had an issue this week where it was obvious we needed to fire this customer, and so I started the email. It was a scenario where I could have gone down the path of, yes, you're right, let's fix it for you. But I did not ever want to have to fix this for this customer ever again. It was obvious that it was just a bad fit. And so it was, hey, to start with, we're finished. I'm not going to try and twist your arm to make you do the things that we thought you said you would do. Doesn't matter. We're good. Thank you very much. Goodbye. But. But unless you're in, unless that is the decision you have made, and I would caution most business owners not to make that decision lightly. Unless that's the decision you made, then. Then it is the customer's right, and just make it happen for them so that you can keep them and happy and everybody's good. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a big one.

It is. It is the.

I. Yeah. And I have one quick one more question, you know, specifically about outsourcing and, you know, your business. What, Is there something that, you know, certain tasks that you would not recommend, you know, a company, you know, go out and hire an outsourcing things that, based on your experience, should really be handled in house or as. As things have developed over time, you know, is there really no limits to it?

Yeah, I don't. I don't see. I don't. I don't see real limits, particularly with, you know, software development outsourcing. Because, you know, again, I have that philosophy in my head. You know, we've said it a couple of times of, you know, look at your outsourcer like, it's a software developer, somebody you hired, you know, so, you know, in the beginning, you wouldn't want to give them the super sensitive stuff or the super difficult stuff. But hopefully, you know, in a relatively short period of time, just like you would with an employee, you're going to grow to trust that individual. And, you know, so I think, you know, I don't think there are any limits. I mean, you got to be cautious, you got to be smart about what you do, especially in the beginning. But, you know, if the guy's showing up on time, he's working hard and he's getting stuff done and he's, and he's, you know, he's doing his job, then you give him more responsibility. Right. So, yeah, I don't, I don't think there's anything. I mean, we certainly have. I certainly have customers that at this point want to pull away even further than I want to let them. You know, they're like, just go do it. And you don't want to be in that situation because you ultimately, you know, from, from where I sit, I don't actually, even as a software solution specialist, I don't get to speak to my customers. Customers. So I don't have the ability to know for sure is somebody going to pay money for this or not, you know, so. And I want them to be successful, but I can't make that determination in some cases, in a lot of cases. So. So I forced them to stay involved.

Yeah.

And I think that's a good thing. You know, I think most customers want to stay involved. You know, let's, let's be clear. But, but the guys who, you know, get to a comfort zone where they're like, all right, I'm ready to do the. Throw it over the fence and wait three months and see what happens. I don't, I don't let us get there. I think that's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's. That's. Yeah. All right, so our other favorite question to ask is, you know, you've been at this for a long time. If you had one piece of advice to give to a small business that's considering outsourcing work, what would that be? And it may be something you've already shared here in the episode, or it might be something you haven't shared yet.

The one piece of advice I would give, yeah, I would say, I guess I've. We've talked about it a little bit here and there, but. But stay involved. Stay involved. You know, again, along that, you know, Treat them like an employee theme. You know, expect to talk to them. Expect that they're going to talk to you on a regular basis. And keep it simple. It shouldn't, it shouldn't be hard. It really shouldn't be hard. You know, there's so many things if you, if you just keep going back to that. Treat them like an employee. Expect them to behave like an employee. There's so many things. For example, the contract. You know, there's contracts that get signed for outsourcing and, and sometimes they can be so complex and lawyers involved and all this other stuff and it really shouldn't be that hard. You don't have to sign a 150 page contract to hire an individual developer and you shouldn't have to do that for an outsourcer either. It should be easy, it should be clear. You shouldn't have to get roped in. Right. So some of those contracts say you need to sign up with us for three months or six months or whatever. That's not the way it works with an employee. If you're not happy with an employee, you can fire them at any time. Right?

That's how it should work. Yeah, that's right.

So, you know, that's, that's the way the contract should work. It should be simple. It shouldn't be hard. Stay involved with your, stay involved with your company just like you would with an employee. And, and it should be easy. It shouldn't, it shouldn't be hard.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah, it's awesome.

Really good advice.

So good. Yep. Yep. Well, thanks so much, Kurt. Is there any, is there anything else before we, before we say thank you and go our separate ways and let our listeners go their separate ways for the day? Is there anything else that you'd like to share or at the very least tell people where we can find you after the fact here?

Yeah. So I'd love to hear from any of the listeners. So, yeah, we have a website like everybody else in the world and that's www.c the number 3s software dot com. And yeah, I don't think there's anything else that. I think you guys did a good job of putting it all out there and grilling me. It's great.

Yeah, it's really good stuff. And we're going to be talking about this one for a while.

I know. Yeah, I'm happy to come back on and talk, answer any questions, share any other experiences. I don't have anything right now, but happy to come back.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show, man. Really great to have you. We'll. We'll see you again in the future, I'm sure.

Yeah. Thank you, guys, man.

Gosh, I love talking about this stuff. I don't know about you, Shannon. It seems like you do too.

Yeah, I do. And I love hearing Kurt's take on it. And you know, that key thing, it sounds so simple, but, but, but being connected and, you know, you know, being in touch with these. These guys is critically important.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, I've proven that to myself time and time again, but I don't necessarily know that I ever really crystallized that thought for myself until we were having this conversation with Kurt that, yeah, you got to be in touch. I mean, he's right. You've got to do it with your own employees. Especially if you've got remote or project employees, whether they're contractors or outsourcers or officially employees, it can be really easy to lose sight of that. Say, oh, yeah, just let's work on the project. But no, no, no, no, no, that's.

Yeah, you have to. Have to keep in touch. And speaking of keeping in touch, we would love to hear from you either if you have a question or a comment feedbackus show co. And you could really help us out by leaving a review for the show@businessshow.co review. We would love to hear from you.

I have one more ask. I know I'm not supposed to have more than two instructions in the show, but when you're talking to other small business owners, either in person or maybe you're part of a Facebook group or a LinkedIn group or something, would you do us a favor and tell them about the small business show at Business Show Co. We would love to have you tell your favorite business people or if you don't like the show, maybe tell your. Your most hated business people. We don't. We're fine. Like, we. We don't, you know, we don't judge. It's all good. We would love for you to share the show with.

With.

With your friends and colleagues. We think that would be great. So that's all I got today about you.

Yeah, me too.

I love it.

I'm gonna go write down some notes because I. I learned a lot, as usual.

That's how it works. Thanks to our sponsors, go co SBS and lino.com SBS thanks to all of you for listening. We really appreciate it, folks. Keep living that charm life. See you next week.