Reputation Management - Before and After a Disaster

Business Brain the Entrepreneurs Podcast Episode 393 for Wednesday, August 17, 2022. Greetings, folks, and welcome to Business Brain, the show where we use our business brains while we're small businessing and in the rest of our lives. And that's, that's what we do here. That's how we make our lives and hopefully your lives. Like together we make all of our lives better. Sponsors for this episode include Zapier, where you can go to zapier.comsbs to try Zapier for free. And Taylor Brands, an AI driven platform for anybody starting a business. You can get 40% off@taylorbrands.com SBS we'll talk more about both of those in a minute. For now and throughout the whole show, I intend to stay here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton. Yeah.

And in Lafayette, California. I'll be here all week, all year, hopefully for the next couple decades at least. I'm Shannon Jean.

Yeah, man.

How's it going out there?

Oh, it's going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of, it's one of those days where I'm sort of in a fog, but that's, you know, it's kind of how it goes. There's some of those days. Yeah, it happens.

I have been really tied up. I just realized we should do a show about this, but I've been using my business brain to, to help on a group of people that want to run for local school board out here. It's a nonpartisan, so it's, you know. Yeah, it's different. Different people coming together, which is awesome. I love it. But bringing a business focus to this campaign has been really fascinating and I'm going to come back and revisit it so we can talk about it. All the stuff I've learned over the last few months.

Yeah, I do have an initial sort of gut reaction, knee jerk question, if you will. And that is how well was the Business Brain approach to local politics by the other people that you're, that you're having to collaborate with?

Yeah. So some better than others. Yeah.

Oh, I mean, I know how it would go here. And that's a kind way to start describing my predictions. Yes, some better than others.

But what I found is what I had to do is ask permission. And once I had permission to manage it this way, everything was better. Especially as we started bringing in people that were being paid versus volunteers. It reminded me of, oh, you know, as I had an intern at my company that wasn't being paid, I would manage them A little different or a lot different than an employee that I was paying and my expectations would be, you know, much different. Higher, more productive maybe.

Yes, sure.

And I found that it's the same with this campaign here and the way that we, everything, the way that we manage, buying products, buying services, how you interact with one another, it's all business based. But I think the core thing of it was that I asked permission. My job for a long time, really for the last year was recruiting. And now that we're done with that recruiting part, which took a long time and I could describe that process now I've moved into this other thing. But I asked everybody if you want me to be the manager of the campaign, this is how I would like to do it. Everybody said yes. Now I can start telling, you know, managing like a business because it's, it's super effective. Now. Ask me after November if we win, I may feel different. If it's successful, sure. At least managing a group of people, managing communication, all that kind of stuff. I don't know anything about politics. I really don't want to know. But I know now that much of the business skills that I've developed over the last three decades has come in handy doing this.

Yeah, I've never gotten involved in a local political campaign. I've been on a couple of committees over the years to solve. Each committee formed to solve a specific problem. And I came into this to both of them with open mind. It wasn't like I need to go in and drive this in a certain direction. I mean, I had my own preferences, but it truly was an open minded kind of thing from my standpoint. And it turns out everyone else on the committee's standpoint, which was good. But I think, you know, I'm thinking if I had just. And I did not run these committees, the committees were run by one of our town council people. Right. So it was, it was a bunch of us volunteer participants that are just lay people in the community and then headed up by the council person. So it wasn't, I didn't, there was no discussion of who's going to lead. That was already sort of set in stone before, you know, beforehand. But I definitely needed to not be the taskmaster at these things, which is sort of a natural thing for me, especially if things are going in the wrong direction. And I don't mean wrong direction, I just mean if things aren't getting, Aren't productive, you know.

Correct.

Yeah. And, and there were moments where things weren't productive. Of course it's A committee of people. And thankfully the woman. I'm thinking of one specific example, and the woman that chaired the committee for us was a very good taskmaster. And so she kept things on track. I think she could tell that I was gonna lose it if. That I was going to step in if she didn't, you know.

Yeah, well, that's okay.

But. That's totally okay. Yeah. But your idea. The point I was gonna make is this idea of asking permission to lead with a sp. Not just saying, would you like me to lead? But if you would like me to lead, here's the style I am going to apply. If I lead and being very as transparent as one can be. I mean, obviously there's going to be some things as you get into the nuances of it that you probably couldn't articulate up front and people couldn't predict upfront. But having. Having that permission, I really like that idea. That's. That's good, man. Yeah.

Yeah, it worked because, you know, this was the first time I've ever done this. And I can tell you it's a massive time suck if you let it. And so managing it, being efficient is really important and there's a lot to do and there's a lot of delegating to do.

Yeah.

And the one thing you can't. If you worried about being liked, it doesn't work. Now. I'm not a candidate. Right. I know that I just won't make a good candidate. I think I could probably be good as a board member, but I'm not the best candidate because I speak out too much, I think, and I have a hard time.

See, I think. So this is interesting because people have tried to convince me to run for our various local councils. We have a school board that's our. For our cooperative school district, which is three towns. And then we have our town council. And people have, have encouraged me to run for either or both of those at different times. And I think I could run a very successful campaign, but they would hate me once I got on the board.

Oh, well, that's. That's funny because I think mine's the opposite.

That's what, that's. What's interesting is, is it's a flip side thing.

Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. But if you again, you know, ask permission, talk to everybody involved and understand that you don't have, you're not. You may not be liked. I told the candidates, I say, hey, I'll manage it. You may not like me by the end of the campaign, but that's okay, if we win, as long as we win, you know.

Right, right, right.

And you have to step on toes. You know, I found out yesterday that something that was supposed to happen have happened, you know, several weeks ago based on timing, never happened. And you have to step in and just say, okay, I'm on it. I'll take care of it. And worried that you hurt somebody's feelings because stuff has to get done if you're going to be successful, just like with your business, the same kind of thing. So this concept of applying your business brain to different topics is really intriguing to me, and I'd like to explore it more. I know next week, I'm excited. We're going to do an episode on a shared episode with giggab on your other podcast on using your business brain as a musician. So I'm excited about applying this to different topics, different genres, and seeing where we go with it.

Yeah, no, it's. It's great. I and I, you know, the more we've been having this conversation about our business brains, the more I realize it's something that I use it. It's not a new thing for me to use it outside of my business life. It's just I'm more in tune with using it outside my business life. Because you and I are talking about it that way.

Yes.

You know, and so, like, you, like you with this, with this political campaign, you know, you're. You probably would have run it the same way, regardless of whether we've been talking about this on the show, but, you know, here you are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just the way I think all the time. It's just the way you think.

That's right.

And we. I'm just. We're recognizing it here on the show. One of the reasons why we changed the name is just because it's a thought process and a. You're adapting and embracing a certain framework in your life that's, you know, encompasses all the stuff we've been talking about for the last seven years. And so, you know, it works. I really think it works.

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Yeah, I, I want to talk about. There's a bunch of sides to this is it. But today I, I think we should talk about trying to keep yourself from having problems with your reputation. Reviews, Bad reviews.

Nobody wants to get canceled. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah, they must be canceled. And then if. Then I think we could talk about what happens if, you know, inevitably something's going to come up. Sure. And how you react to it. And these are. They're two different concepts, but they're really married to each other. And it's not just the way you feel about it. It's the way you train your employees, your contractors. There's a whole cultural thing about how you manage this stuff. I think it's really worth talking about, and I would love to jump into it.

Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Lead. Lead us in. I'm. I'm. I mean, I've. Yeah, obviously I've done a lot of this over the years in both sort of intentionally and unintentionally as. As I think we all do. But I'm curious what your sort of active thoughts are on this. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So the last time we did a show on reputation management was episode 55. Now we're on it. Right. And so we're on 393. So it's been a while. And the one thing I've realized since then, looking at all these different ways to handle it, is if you teach one concept to your employees and if you embrace this one single concept, like looking on the Internet, one little trick, one secret, they'll help you. But this one concept can set the tone for the way you manage everything. And that is, everything is public. There is no such thing as a private email between you and your customer, a phone call. Anything, you know, anything you do is. Is apt to be made public. And you got to remember that. It's like telling your kids, don't ever post things on social media you wouldn't tell your grandmother about.

Right. They definitely do, but that's different.

Of course. So do your employees. Your employees are going to make mistakes, too.

Well, I know it's true, but I. You know what I've. What I've said to our kids from day one, and. And it. It speaks to your point, is that the Internet is. Is like Las Vegas. What happens on the Internet stays on the Internet Forever.

Yeah, definitely forever.

And that's an email. That's anything you make electronic like, you have to assume that it's going to be published someday with your name attached to it.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And so teaching your. Your people that concept, it's. It's really important if they think that some private interaction or if they're joking around about some customer or, you know, saying things they shouldn't, Say either on a phone call or in a. Anything, a Slack message that could be made public, an email, chain chat. You just can't do it. You have to think about it. You just cannot do it. All those things can easily be captured. Some. One employee gets upset at another and says, I'm going to burn this guy. You know, thinking that they're going to hurt them by posting something publicly. This is how you're. This, these people talk about you, customers, you know, where it could, I mean, that's very, very damaging. So you need to step one is educate your employees and your contractors, whoever represents you, that they're speaking and writing in a public forums all at all times when they're managing, you know, your business or interacting with your customers.

Yeah, yeah, I've, I've had to, you know, I, in my companies, I keep a very casual and at times irreverent bar in terms of the things that, that we can feel comfortable talking about with each other. Right. But when it comes to the Slack conversations, all of those things, you know, the context of a staff zoom meeting is very different than something being taken out of context, which is very easy to do from a Slack channel or something like that. Right?

Yes.

And so the bar has to be higher when it's in the written form. And that's something I've always made very clear to our staff. And at times I've had to sort of be that guy that overreacts when something happens in a Slack chat that perhaps in a staff zoom meeting might be totally okay, you know, and it might even be something I would say, you know, but when it comes up in a Slack channel, it's like, wait a minute. You know, if someone were to be eavesdropping on this Zoom call, they would at least theoretically have gotten the entire context of what's happened here. Doesn't make it entirely better, but it changes the impact of it. Whereas, you know, if that one Slack message gets taken and published out there, nobody has the context. And if it's up to you to, you know, to explain the context, you've already lost. Right, that's correct.

Absolutely.

Yep. And so it's an interesting line that I've had to navigate. Again, just because we do keep things, all of us loose and irreverent at times and things like that.

So, yeah, I think it's human nature to complain about your customers. I mean, just like business owners complain about employees, you have to weigh. Yeah, yeah, it's a release valve. It's a release valve right there.

Is there Is a thing there though, where the release valve is fine. But yeah, if you're making everything about your customers or whatever it is negative, that can start to set the tone of your business's culture as well. And you got to be really careful with that, regardless of the venue, even if it is that, you know, looser staff zoom meeting kind of things.

So. Yeah, I agree, I agree. The other thing, we've talked about this concept on the show a number of times, but it's worth going back and finding an episode where we talk about the two tokens process of customer service. This method that we've discussed, we didn't invent it, but we use it. And you may be using it too and not realizing it. And just really quickly, the way it works is there's only two tokens in every customer service and interaction between a customer. The first token is, hey, this is no big deal. And the second token is, oh my gosh, this is incredibly, it's a huge deal. And if you take the no big deal token, the only other option is for your customer to take the hey, this is a big deal token and it's going to be harder to resolve things. So you and your people, your employees, your contractors, you should take that. Oh, you know, I realize what such an inconvenience this is. I know it's a big deal and I'm here to help get it resolved. The customer doesn't, typically doesn't have another option. They're going to take the other token that says, hey, I'm so glad. Thank you. And it's almost like that relief valve, you've just pushed the button and relieve some of that pressure that the customer, they're ready for a fight. So if you take that other token, it can go a long way to resolving things quickly. Yeah, teacher, teacher. Yeah, yeah. A few more things on my before it happens to try to keep it from happening. Give your customer, your employees, your contractors enough autonomy to solve, to really solve problems. If you're second guessing everything, if they have to ask for approval to ship something out or to expedite something, it gums up the system. Can you set a dollar amount that they can spend to solve problems without further approval? I think there was some famous hotel chain that told everybody, look, you can, you could solve a problem up to $1,000 and you don't have to ask for approval.

Yeah.

And anybody, any employee, whether it's from the cleaning staff to the major, you know, the, the bus or bellboy, whatever it was, could spend that money to solve A problem for a customer to make it right.

That is one of the best and easiest ways to practice empowerment that I've ever heard or used. And I think it was. I mean, maybe it was in our conversation on this show that I first heard about it, maybe not. I think it was from you that I first heard about it, though it may have predated this show's existence. But, yeah, we always talk about how we want to empower our employees, we want to empower our teams, and that can be nebulous to put a point on. What does that mean? Right. But this is a great way to do it where you are literally putting a point on it and saying, hey, you don't have to call me. If you can solve this problem for that person, for whatever the number is. If it's a thousand dollars, if it's 200, if it's a hundred, yeah, 50.

Could be 50 bucks. Right, right.

Whatever it is. But if. If you can do it within these parameters that's on that, then please feel free. If you think it's appropriate, you have the freedom to do that. And, and you're not going to get yelled at now. We might. It might become a coachable moment as to. Okay, well, you, you solved it this way. Maybe. Are there other ways that it could have been solved?

Yeah.

Right.

You know, you can critique it. Yes, of course. If you don't agree with it, you can critique it and show different examples. But you, you, you, you want to back up your employee that took the. Took the initiative to do it.

Absolutely.

And because everybody is watching you to see how you respond as a business owner to those things.

Right, Right. No, it's super. If you're struggling like I was with finding ways of empowering your employees, this is. It's so easy. And, yeah, you know, pick the number that works for your business, but it will save you money in the end.

Yeah, for us, it was always, yeah, it will save you money. I'm gonna talk about that too, in a few minutes. But, you know, for us, in my business with parts and repair things, oftentimes it was just shipping. Something happened and somebody wanted to upgrade shipping. And, you know, eventually I was like, look, as long as it's not over, you know, 50 bucks, if you have to resolve that problem, go ahead, just upgrade your shipping to get things out of there. So however it, you know, it's applied to your unique business, it do it because you'll have less headaches and you can focus on growth and building your company. Right? Yeah. Along the same Way you can use those examples of people arguing over little dollar amounts and little tiny things is examples to how things are resolved. You know, I recently had. Get this I need in one of my businesses, I need this certain color Sharpie.

Okay.

I just have to have it and it's not available that often. I don't know why it we wound up using this, but it is what it is. So I don't want to have to buy a whole kit. Every time we wear one of these out, it comes in like a kit of like 20 or 30 sharpies, but I'm like, that's a waste. It's like 25 bucks. 30 bucks, sure. So I find this certain color I need on a large website that we all buy from and it was like eight bucks. It's total rip off. But I was like, yeah, great, I'll get it here, I'll buy it, I get it, go to grab it, check it out. It's dry, it doesn't work. So yeah, totally sucks. So I get online and I go back to return and they're just hassling me about this return. And finally I go back to the guy and I said, you're buying a poor review for 8 bucks. Is that the way you want to spend your money? Right. You're buying it from me. I'm going to pay you eight bucks to go leave you a poor review because you're giving me a hard time to review. And I think I got across to him because I immediately had this, you know, I just had a refund and they said, don't worry about it, don't send it back. I would have been happy to send it back. Of course, they didn't even want me to return it. But think about the cost. You know, what is this really going to cost you to make the customer happy versus what you're paying to have a poor review on the Internet. And a customer that tells this, tells this crappy story over and over about this bad situation. That's what you're buying.

Don't buy poor reviews, man. Oh, that's super powerful. It's a Sharpie.

The Sharpie example is what really brought it to my. I was like, dude, yeah, he's paying me eight bucks to go leave him a poor review about their customer service. Okay. You know, it's. Yeah, it's not so. So role playing and going through these examples can really help bring it to the forefront of with your team to try to avoid this stuff.

Yeah.

But of course you could do all this stuff and you're still going to have these situations come up. Right. The pre planning can help things along the way a lot and really minimize things, but eventually it's going to happen. And I have a few comments about managing these things. I'm sure you can jump in, Dave. The first one is just stop, stop and research. Don't no knee jerk reactions to try to solve problems. Research it, Ask people, ask your employees, ask your contractors, hear what happened and then look at the customer history. You know, is this, is it a great customer that has had one problem or is it just a customer that's continually problematic that you need to fire? Right. You're going to react differently to those kind of things. So.

And what's interesting is you will. I often find that I am on the opposite side of my employees in terms of their gut reactions in both of those scenarios.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

The ones where it's like, you know, it's a customer and something terrible has happened and they're like, this is, we need to yell at this person or whatever, we need to fire this customer. Right? And it's like they're new. Wait, tell me what happened. Like you said, I am always just like, okay, let's breathe together and just talk. Tell me what's going on. Let me research. Let's, let's, you know, get this all out in the open. And most of the time with a customer that's relatively new, I am, I find myself of the opinion when there's a problem that let's give them another shot. Let's, you know, let's, Once I've looked at all the facts, it's like, okay, I see where this could go either way. But sure, let's, let's go and let's see if we can make them happy. Right? And I love this. I do this all the time. I'll do it with, with, you know, other customer service type interactions. If I see somebody is like super cold, I take it as a mission to warm them up and make them my friend. And I'm usually pretty good at it. You know, it's, it's, it's good to practice the skill. And it drives my family crazy. Not because I do it, but because of how successful I am with it. They're like, gosh, how do you like that person was cold as ice and now they're your best friend. I'm like, well, that's because I tried. You know, you ask, you ask them who they are, you express interest, like all of those things. You know, you try not to be A sociopath. Be hard, but when it. Yeah, sometimes. But the flip side of it, when there is a routinely problematic customer. So again, a customer that's been with us for a longer time than the one, than the first example, and I see the problems sort of occurring over and over again, I'll be the one often that says, hey, I think it's time to fire this customer. And I'll get my team to say, oh, no, I know this person. I can, I can make this relationship better. And rarely does that succeed. And it's because they've put the time into this person that they want to salvage the relationship. And I get that to a point. Right. You know, it's. You've invested in something, you want to see a positive return on it. That's great. But there is the concept of sunk costs that often applies with those routinely problematic customers. And it's like, we got to draw the line with these people. We can't spend. It's the 80, 20 rule. Not in our favor.

Right.

If we're spending 80% of our time on 20% of our customers that aren't earning us 80% of our money, well, that's the wrong place to be doing it. It's one thing if it's a big customer and there's a lot of money involved, but if it's, you know, some minor. And I don't. Minor is the wrong word. If it's just a small dollar customer, I mean, and they're just asking for way too much, it's like, okay, correct. We got to slow that down. Yeah. We got to draw a line here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you need to stop, you need to do this research, figure out the best way to respond. But on the flip side, if a customer is posted publicly on social media, I think you do need to respond to their post quickly. But you can respond with something. Yeah. Or something like, you know, if you know their name, you should say it like, oh, hey, Charlie, thank you for reaching out to us. We're looking into the situation and we'll reach out to you directly once we have some background. Rest assured, we will get things resolved quickly. That's a great public response because you recognize them by name. You always want to try to do that if you can, because it connects you with them. You, You've. You told them you're researching it, so it's important to you. You're not just blowing them off and you told them that you're going to, you're going to get things resolved because you are one Way or another.

One way or another, even if you.

Fire the guy, you're going to get things resolved, right?

That's right.

And I think that's important. Now they may post a response like, well, da, da, da, da, da. I just think. Then you wait and you don't respond again until you can say something along the lines of, hey, we've got more information. I'm reaching out to you directly now. Right. So there's always a little follow up. But you, you want to go to them direct and speak with them, call them if you can. It's always better.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes you have customers that won't do it.

No, you don't want to. You don't want to get into a keyboard jockey scenario where no, you know, people are. Yeah, that never. You're right. Calling people is the right move. Okay, so to, to encapsulate the advice in the last few minutes here, don't buy poor reviews, but do buy yourself time when there is a poor review. And I like this. Right, that, that immediate reaction of, thank you for bringing this to our attention. We're researching it, we'll be back in touch. And then, like you said, you have to publicly make it clear that you have completed that research and attempted to reach out. Rarely do you want to have the entire exchange in public, though. You have to remember, if you have the exchange with the customer in writing, it may be published. Published by the customer. So you have to know that that's possible, as we said before, and arguably worse, but usually better. If you have the conversation on the phone and the customer is not happy, they will then be relating that in their own words, probably making themselves look like the victim. Even if that's not the case. Sometimes it is the case. Sometimes the customer is the victim, and sometimes, you know, it's. It's obviously not the goal of any business, but sometimes it is income. It's a bad fit between a business and a customer. And I've certainly been on both sides of that throughout my life, as I'm sure we all have.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So before I tell you what I think is the most powerful sentence you can ever say to a customer when you have a problem, let me tell you the three things. The three words never to mention if you can avoid it and teach your people not to.

Okay.

Don't mention policies, terms, conditions. People hate those words and their hackles get up. We bristle with anger when we hear that because people take those as excuses. Even if you, of course you're going to have policies, terms and conditions, but you can't rely on them that, that are magically going to solve these problems. It's empathy with the customer, speaking with them like as a human, using their name. All these things we've just talked about, that's how you're going to solve problems. Don't say policies, terms, conditions. Get those things out of your vernacular. Get them off your website. Just talking like if you, I know you have an attorney probably telling you, don't listen to this guy, but you want to give unbelievable customer service and be successful, get rid of those three words.

Yeah, I agree. It's funny you mention it. I mean, the only time that I have had success employing those words, and maybe this is several levels up, is when I've said, look, we have a policy that says, I can't do what you need me to do, but let me talk with the team and see if I can make that happen for you. But now I will never say that to a customer unless I already know that I can bend that policy.

Yes.

Right.

That's the us and them. Us and them trick.

That's correct.

Yes. And I was going to ask you this question because I've used this before. Excuse me. And it can be tricky, but if you can employ this us and them methodology, that it's you and the customer against the company, if you will, or against your supervisor or manager.

Yes.

Sometimes that can work great and to really relieve things and somebody can go, oh, thanks for going to bat for me. But it also can make customers angry at the company. You know, happy with the employee, but still angry. So I don't know, I have mixed feelings about the us and them trick. But it can work really well.

It can, it, you can't, it can't be your go to. It has to be one of those things where, you know, it, it's going to work to help this person.

It's a sophisticated trick.

It's like I said, it's super advanced.

And often deep end of the customer service pool.

But often it comes from asking, hey, in a perfect world, and I understand that, you know, you're, you're where you are and I'm where I am. But in a perfect world, what would this solution look like? And if they describe that now, you want to hopefully never ask that question without already knowing what the customer's answer is going to be because they will have told you throughout the process in a variety of ways what they actually want. So if you think you know what they're going to answer and you think you can deliver that? Asking that question, it is risky, but you ask that question, they deliver it and that's when you can use the okay. Policy says, I normally can't do this. However, let me see what I want to make this right. I think I can make this happen. Let me just confirm with the team and I'll get right back to you. You know, that, that kind of thing.

But it can backfire. But it can work hugely.

Can backfire. Yeah. You've got to, you got to be really careful with it. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right.

I think we cover some great topics. I think there's some good tips here that you and I have learned over the years. We would love to hear from you if feedback at Businessbrain show. Send us your comments and I'm gonna leave you with this one thing.

Okay. I was gonna say you're gonna leave us hang. Okay.

No, no, I'm gonna tell you, but I just, I want to hear your feedback as well. But this, this one sentence, it's actually two sentences. But this, this, this method here, if you have a. It doesn't work all the time. You can't use it all the time. Your business, it may not be applicable, but if you're selling $50 items, eight dollar sharpies, whatever, 7500, you. You come up with the number, it doesn't matter, and you have a big problem. You feel like it's going to blow up like a bomb and there's all these indicators and your spidey senses are up. This phrase can wrap a problem customer in this sweet warm blanket and they will love you. And what you say is when you pick up the phone, you say, hey, hey, Charlie. Before we start to resolve your problem, I want you to know that I've issued you a full refund. Now let's figure out where things went wrong.

Man, I like that because you've de. Escalated the whole thing.

Yeah, it's super Jiu jitsu customer service because, yeah, you gave the guy 75 bucks. I mean, you can't do it. Thousand dollar items. I don't know, maybe you can. Maybe it's a super important customer. That a thousand bucks is nothing.

That's right.

It's up to you. You make the decision. But when you say that, they're immediately like, oh, oh, oh, you know, And I would say probably about 80% of the time a customer would say, oh, I don't want a full refund, I just want this thing resolved.

Yes.

And then you go, okay, what's that? How Much is that, Do I have to overnight you something? Do you want a 25% discount? But your willingness and you've put the value of the customer above the dollar.

Yeah.

Is massive. It's a massive shift in frame of the conversation. And you know, you should try it. It really works. It'll put a smile on your face. It'll put a smile on your customer faces.

Well, it, it, it really is a concrete example of using that two tokens of customer service policy. Right, because you're, you're just, you're just jumping to the, well, obviously you need to refund. And, and, and that was what Jean Louis Gasse used to do is like, okay, well you know, let me refund you for the computer. That, that, that failed. It's like, well, the customers would be like, well, no, I want the computer. Oh, okay, well then what's the problem? You know, now let's get to the, the nuance of what it is. And, and again, it's getting, getting to that thing. I, I've always regarded Apple's and maybe it's changed, but Apple's customer relations department, which is different from customer support, their customer relations department is like the customer service ninjas. You said jiu jitsu of customer service. You know, it's right in that realm. And I've been on the phone with them when I've had major issues with a piece of technology, usually don't get to them first. You know, you deal with support first. They try to solve your problem when it's unsolvable and it's clear that it's an Apple issue. That's when you can get to customer relations. It used to be a little easier. You used to just call and ask, but that's not how it works anymore. But oftentimes they will either offer a solution that's obviously what you want, or I've had them ask me, what would it take to resolve this for you? Ask me and let me see if I can do that for you. You know, and I remember one time I said, well, I'd like this computer replaced. And they said, that seems fair, let's start that process. And it was like, okay, this is interesting. Like they wouldn't in that particular scenario, they weren't offering it, but they did essentially put a blank check on the table and say, write this and as long as it's realistic, I'm going to sign it, you know, and that's what happened. And I was very happy with the outcome. So success for them, right?

Yes. And you build when you Know when there's a problem and you resolve it quickly and handle things like this, like we've been talking about the last 40 minutes or so, that customer is very loyal to you, much more loyal to you than somebody who just bought something and went on their merry way. That person knows that, man, you know what? I'm going to buy from them again because they fix this. And it's an opportunity to really earn trust. So you could shift your whole mantra of customer service of like, man, here's a chance to. To create the most loyal, best customers we could possibly have and get your customer service people to embrace that concept. And like, you're the heroes. You are the ones that build the foundation of our awesome customer base right here. And, you know, you can really go some places with it and change it from, oh, man, we hear complaints all day long, and it's just a nightmare. And this, that, and the other thing. So I would challenge you to come up with these, you know, use some of these creative ways and come up with your own. But I would also challenge you to come back and share them with us either at the email address I just mentioned a few minutes ago or at BusinessBrain Show Facebook. Come share them in the support group.

Absolutely.

We'd love to hear from you.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna revise the first bit of advice that I had encapsulated earlier. Don't buy poor reviews. Do buy customer loyalty. There you go.

I like it.

Right? So, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. Thanks for listening, folks. Thanks for hanging out with us. As he said, feedbackusinessshow. Co make sure you check out our sponsors. Zapier.comSBS taylorbrands.com SBS thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next week. And keep living that charmed life.