Small Business Interview with Bob LeVitus – Managing Distractions and Being Disciplined for Success – Small Business Show episode 109

The small business show, episode number 109 for Wednesday, March 8, 2017. Greetings, folks, and welcome to the small business show here at BusinessShow Co, the show by, for, and about small business owners here in Durham, new hampshire.

I'm Dave Hamilton, and in Concord, California, I am Shannon Jean. How are you, sir?

I'm good, man. How are you?

I'm good, I'm good. I'm looking outside at a nice sunny day now that the arc is finished out here. I think the rain is done, the reservoirs are full, and we're as happy as we can get out in California.

Oh, that's good, man. That's good. Hey, we have someone bridging the gap for us, geographically speaking, today. I'd like to welcome Mr. Bob Levitis to the show. Bob, thanks so much for coming, man.

Hey, thanks for having me, you guys.

Yeah, absolutely.

Longtime fan, first time guest.

That's right. Yeah.

Very good.

Where are you located, Bob?

I'm in Austin, Texas. Literally.

That's right.

Beautiful.

Halfway across.

Yeah. That's great.

Dave's old stomping grounds.

Yeah. It's funny, I think we waved to each other once when I was living in Austin, but we were never introduced. I think Mike Rosenfeld pointed you out across the room while I was in there getting one of my. I had one of the first hundred Power 100 machines, and it had all kinds of problems. They brought me in.

Oh, no. You mean it overheated a little?

Yeah, something about. Yeah, the power supply and everything else was. Was needed to be replaced. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we waved to each other across the room there, but. But it was years later when we actually finally met, so. Yeah, but, Bob, you've got. Well, I mean, you've got a new book out that I want to talk about, but just a little background. As long as I've known you, other than the aforementioned wave across the room, I've always sort of known you as a lifelong solopreneur. But clearly there have been moments where you worked for the man. So what was it that made you branch out on your own? Or were the. The times like that sort of detours that maybe not even detours maybe just parallel paths for you?

Well, I'm virtually unemployable, and I've always known that. Sounds familiar. In my book, I say I got fired from more jobs in high school and college than most people have in two lifetimes. So it was pretty obvious to me early on that I wasn't very well suited for the boss thing. And the times that I've had jobs purposely since I quit my job in advertising in the early 80s and bought a Mac and decided, I'll figure out something to do with this. I've only had a couple of short stints with companies. A couple times I did startups. One of them was power computing. I was the director of evangelism for them. I also did something with. What are they called? Autodesk.

Oh, no kidding.

Yeah, well, they were doing a thing that was based on the literary machines Xanadu kind of global information repository. They were going to build Google before Google, and it's funny, they were going to put all the information known to man in an indexed searchable thing that you could then search and you'd pay for it by the byte. And then other people could sell their goods and services there. So it had an element of ebay. It was a clean and well lit place where you could sell electronic merchandise. This is in 1980 something, or maybe. Yeah, late 80s. Okay, so that was fun. And then I was at, wait, not harvard.com, but that's it.

Okay.

Three short stints. And the rest of the time I've been on my own and I actually prefer it that way. I haven't, I haven't had a day job in at least 10 years.

Got it, got it. Okay. So were these, these little, these three little detours, were they things that just sort of appeared on your plate and you thought, oh, why not? Or were they the result of you saying, hey, maybe the solopreneur life isn't for me, I should go and get a gig with, with something more?

Can I, can I say part of each?

Yeah, sure.

Really was, it was like the Amex offer, the offer from Autodesk. It just came in out of nowhere. They were a startup in stealth mode and they offered me a lot of money to move to California and be part of a team. And I flew out and hung out with them for a weekend and I thought this would be really fun. And so, you know, Lisa and I, we had an infant child and the money was enough that we could afford to rent our house out in Austin and move to Silicon Valley for a year, pretty much risk free. I thought, well, there's really no downside. So we tried it and I loved Silicon Valley, but it's just so expensive, you know, I came back to, I limped back to Austin with my tail between my legs.

Okay.

But all three of them, I was certainly influenced by them being startups and looking at a big payout, you know, Being on the ground floor of a big startup like Power Computing.

Yeah, right, right. I think there was only one person that got a payout from that. But. But that's another story.

Well, and you know what I. What I love about that your story is a couple things, and we talk about a lot on the show. One is the power of saying yes.

Right.

Looking at opportunities and not having to convince yourself to do it. But, oh, hey, this is something we gotta, you know, we can jump into. And also, just, you know, looking at your background and all the different things you've done and, you know, the books and the, you know, podcasts and the web stuff and everything is it. I just get the sense that you're the type of guy that just kind of grinds it out and makes it happen. And I think when people ask me, how have you done this over the years? That seems to be one of the big quote secrets that a lot of folks don't get, is you just have to grind it out.

One of my favorite sayings is the hardest part about being a blank. And you can fill in the blank. I like to say writer, but Oliver Stone said screenwriter and Wallace Stegner said novelist. But whatever. Say the hardest part is keeping your ass in the chair.

Yeah.

You know, it's like you got to learn to do that first, because if your fingers aren't on the keyboard, nothing's going to come out.

Huh. That's. I mean, it's so true. But, but, but, but also very, very difficult. I mean, it's. It's about, you know, being dedicated and holding.

You have to have a. Have a vivid fantasy life. I pretend that I've got crazy glue on my buttocks.

That's awesome.

And that keeps me in the chair as long as I can maintain the fantasy that I'm glued down. And then the alarm goes off after 25 minutes, telling me that the work session has ended. The pomodoro session. I use the pomodoro technique to keep my ass in the chair, but when the buzzer goes off, the glue melts. So every 25 minutes, the glue melts and I can go do something. But in between, I do act as if I can't get out of the chair. I mean, I try to maintain that. No. What happens? All right, so bleeding. I have to go see.

Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's part of the flexibility of. Of working at home. If there is some real problem, you are actually present to be there for. For that. Yeah. Okay, so we've jumped all over the place, a little bit here, which I of course knew would happen because it's what happens when. When with me. With you. But it also happens with me. So it's just. But, but you, you, you've written many books. You've written over 80. Over 80. Okay. Yeah. But, but you've got a new book out that talks about specifically this. This essentially learning how to. How you've learned how to live with yourself. And, and you just sort of backed us into one of those techniques, which is you set an alarm to literally keep yourself in your chair.

Yes. And it's in the book explains this technique. I mean, I didn't make it up. I found it somewhere and it's been around since the 80s, but. And I don't do it exactly the way they write about it. Sure. It's one of those things that if you, if you think that might work for you, you can adapt it to your needs. It doesn't have to be 25 minutes. It could be 30, it could be 20. But the whole idea of setting a timer and focusing on one task is very important, I think, to being productive. Because my research, while I was researching this book, one of the things I found was, the best I can tell, it takes 22 minutes to get back in the zone. When you're in the zone and someone interrupts you. And so that doesn't leave you a lot of leeway on a 25 minute work session, you know? Sure. So if something's going to interrupt you and it's going to take you 22 minutes to get back into it, you want to do everything in your power to get 25 uninterrupted minutes. Because that's like having an hour of work.

All right.

Rather than 22 minutes to get back into it and then get back up to speed.

Yeah.

You know, it really works.

How, how long ago did you institute this stuff? I mean, you're, you're just now talking about it all. But, but how long did this particular thing. How long did you look around?

Around the turn of the century.

Wow.

I learned that I have adhd. I mean, you know me.

Yeah. It's not a revelation.

Obvious to you. Yeah, exactly. To people who know me, it's totally obvious. But I didn't know and nobody ever told me. And so when I found out, it was like, whoa, that explains a lot. I mean, that really explained a lot about why the rabbit holes were so attractive and why I had so much trouble, you know, not not doing what I shouldn't do and doing What I should do. And once I learned that, it was like a light bulb went off. It's like, okay, well, now that I know that that's how I am and that my brain chemistry makes me do these things the way that it does, I can work with that. I can work with that. And I just became obsessed with productivity. From there forward, it's like, well, okay, how can I make my life easier? How can I make it so I'm not in the office 17 hours a day doing four hours of work? Yeah, that's how I used to get. That's my life. Used to be 18 hour work days with about 3 hours maybe of good work. And so I started to look at what I was doing for all those hours. And some of it was playing games, and some of it was surfing the Internet, and some of it was anything to avoid working. That's what I learned. I basically will do anything to avoid working. So once I knew that, I started to make a plan for the day. And in doing so, I learned that you need to isolate the things that are the most important and highlight them and make sure that they get done before the less important or more fun things. So one of my problems was I used to have this to do list, and when it got to 17 pages, I gave up. I said, you know, this isn't working.

That's not working.

Yeah, but the problem was everything that wasn't fun or easy got pushed to the next page eventually and was never seen again. You know, it's like if it wasn't on the front page, I didn't even think about it. So it occurred to me that if I want to accomplish things, I need to make them important and make myself aware of their importance all day long so that I could get them done first before I start goofing off.

I mean, it sounds like you've come up with a system, for lack of a more. For lack of a longer phrase, that you. You essentially make a deal with yourself every day about what it is you're getting.

Funny you should. It's funny you should say that because I say that one of my techniques is carrot and stick.

Okay, there you go.

I have carrot stick for a lot of things. For example, when I have a book and there's a deadline and I look at it and I divide through the number of days, and I know what my page quota per day is, and I say, if I can finish this on time or, you know, before the deadline, I will buy myself a Hawaiian shirt. If I don't hit my Deadline, I will give one of my beloved Hawaiian shirts to Goodwill.

Oh.

And that works for me. I haven't missed a deadline in years because I like my Hawaiian shirts a lot. But, you know, whatever it is that matters to you, you can make deals with yourself. It works. If you have to be honest, I did make a deal with myself not that long ago that I was going to buy myself a Texas silver, like, gaucho belt.

Not.

Not like a race car, not like a NASCAR belt, but, you know, just a nice leather belt with a western buckle on it. And they're about. They're a couple hundred dollars, and it's way frivolous. I just had no need for it. And I made myself some deal that I would do something by a certain date, and I didn't. And I had to donate $100 to. I'm not gonna say, but it was a charity. I wouldn't have donated $100 to.

All right, so it had to hurt twice.

Yeah, of course, yeah. If you're gonna use a stick, it better hurt or it's useless. But, you know, all of these things combined make for. And really the biggest one for me is the plan and isolating what is important to get done today and then breaking my day down into 25 minute work sessions and saying, from 11 to 11:30, I'm going to work on this, and from 11:30 to 12, I'll work on this. You know, sometimes things go. Things go awry. But mostly having a plan lets me know what's important and in what order I should be tackling those things today. And so I don't spend a lot of time holding my to do list in my hand going, what am I going to do next?

Right.

Maybe I should play a little Crystal Quest while I think about it.

Yeah, no, I get. Okay, so how. How did you. I have so many questions. And so I really. I think if you'd come on this show like 15 years ago, man, we could have diagnosed your ADHD in like 12 minutes. But. And maybe we're diagnosing mine too. But, like, what was it that. That did sort of bring you to this. This enlightenment about yourself? How did you. How did you get here?

A friend of mine handed me a book called Driven to Distraction. I talk about this in the introduction to my new book, but it's called Driven to Distraction by a guy named Hallowell. And it's kind of like the bible of adult adhd. And he said, you should read this because I think you have this. And I said, yeah, sure. Okay. And the book sat for like a year.

Sure.

And then I saw him again and he said, did you read it? You know, I've been seeing a doctor and I've got medication, I'm doing psychotherapy and I'm really a lot more productive and a lot less crazy. And you have it. You should go see the doctor. So I went and saw a doctor and got assessed and I said afterwards, so do I have it? And he said, you could be the poster child for adult adhd. I said, that's cute. Poster child. Thanks. But, you know, from then on I got it and I realized that, you know, it's not my fault. My brain just does that if I don't do something different.

Yeah, right.

And so it's a very active thing. I don't use the word in the book on purpose, but it's mindfulness. You have to be thinking about this stuff or you can't even begin to combat it.

Right.

So it's got to come to the front of your mind, you know, all the time you got to. To be thinking, what should I be doing now? What's the most productive thing I could do right now? And why aren't I doing that?

Yeah. And what's the reason?

Yeah, the, the title of the book, you know, working Smarter for Mac Users. You talk a lot about this and relate it to when you're using your Mac or just also general. Yeah.

Yes and yes and no. One of the things I noticed when I was reading and after I found out about the adhd, I read like dozens of books on personal productivity and ADHD and memory and attention and focus. And you know, I read a lot and most of it didn't have any information for computer users. And they would recommend things like calendars and tell you to write it on your day planner.

Right.

And I mean, it's gotten better over the years, but really there aren't very many books that integrate some of the things that make my life easier because I use Apple stuff like location based alerts. That's a great way to not forget to get something. If I need something at Home Depot, a location based alert means the next time I drive anywhere near it, my phone will tell me I have to go buy a hammer. Otherwise I'll forget if I don't put it on my list for today to do so. Things like that. And there's a lot of them, I use a combination of my calendar reminders and the handwritten plan for each day. And between those that like holy triumvirate, everything is tracked Nothing falls through the cracks. I don't forget anything. And those are the kinds of things that, that's why it's for Mac users, because I didn't want to have to say, so here's what you should use if you're a Windows user, to store reminders, basically. I didn't want to get into that. I am, though, when I wrote, you may be too young to remember this, boys, but I wrote a book a long time ago, Stupid Mac Tricks.

Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah, it was a surprise hit and the publisher came to me and said, you know, you could make a lot more money if we put out a sequel called Stupid PC Tricks. And I said, yeah, except I don't.

I don't know any of those.

I don't touch PCs. I don't even own one. And they said, you don't have to write it. You could, you know, hire. So one of my friends wrote HTML for Dummies and a couple other books, and he was more of a PC head. So I handed him my book, Stupid Mac Tricks, and I said, how long would it take you to write one of these for windows to find 15 stupid windows tricks and write this kind of book? And he said, I don't know, six weeks. I said, good, here's how much they'll pay us. Yeah, so, you know, I can see this as something. And in fact, I've already talked to him about translating this into pces, because I can't do it and I don't want to. And really, I have no credibility there. But I think that the information, 80% of the book is platform agnostic. It's either web or not computer at all. And the 20% that's platform specific is stuff that's generic enough that there's a way to do all of these things and there's apps to do all these things in Windows. I just don't know what they are or use them. So I think one of the things I'll do is translate this into pces, at least for starters.

That's so smart. What a lesson that is for anyone doing anything where you're creating something based on your own expertise. If there's a way to leverage, like you said, 80% of what you've done. But even if it's 30% of what you've done, finding an expert in another subject matter where that can be translated or related or whatever it is can be a great way to increase your revenue stream.

Well, and I see this book as this topic, as having lots of ways it could be Branched out like. The next thing I'm going to do is a video course. So I'm going to do. I think. I don't know how long it'll be, but I'm guessing it'll be eight or ten hours probably total. And it'll be immerse yourself in this and everything that's in the book and more, but in a very visual one on one kind of course, video course manner, which of course commands a higher price point. And that's great because I don't want to write another book about this, but a lot of people don't want to read a book they want.

That's right. It brings in another demographic that. That wants the data, but maybe is not going to sit down and, you know, read that book.

I gotta say, ADHD people might not be the ones to sit and read an entire book. I'm just saying. Right. You know.

Right.

Yeah.

But I've also found all these little pockets of people that I didn't think were constituencies for this book that are like programmers.

Oh, totally.

You know. Yeah. It's like I've had so many programmers say to me, you know, you must have written this for programmers. And really, I didn't even think about that until after. Till it was done.

Right.

And I thought, whoa, that's interesting. But that makes total sense. And the other one is musicians. Yeah, yeah, I've heard from a few musicians.

Here I am waving my hand.

Bob, you must have been reading my mind when you wrote this. It's like, no, but yeah, I think that makes sense too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've got a lot. There's a lot of things I want to do with the subject matter before I move on to the next thing, whatever that is. But I think for the next year or so I've got stuff to do with Working Smarter. And I'm just. I can't tell you how heartwarming it's been to have people tell me that this book is changing their lives as they type, you know?

Yeah. I notice you have a Kindle edition of Working Smarter for Mac users, which could arguably be the worst delivery method for someone that actually needs the book because the opportunity for distraction reading on an electronic device is awful.

I agree. However, here's the thing. It was a matter of, do I ignore the largest bookseller in the world in order to give you a reading experience? Well, no. If you're gonna buy that version, then you know what it's gonna be like to read it on your Mac or your iPhone.

Totally. Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course. No, I was just, I was just pointing out the irony of it.

Yeah, I put the buttons side by side so you can order it from the ibook store or from. Yeah, of course that's not ready yet because it hasn't been approved in the ibook store yet.

Well, it's on Amazon, but imagine that. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, folks, it is on Amazon. Working smart.

But they're still mad about itunes. Must die.

Oh, is that you still having a problem with that? I'm kidding, kidding.

No, they rejected that out of hand and I said, could you tell me why?

Nice.

That's great.

Hey, I have a question for you. I'm going to try and get a word in edgewise, but just a very specific thing for people, for the audience for your book, which I think probably makes up a sizable portion of our audience too. Certainly the solopreneur thing. But I know as someone who dabbles in this sort of suffering here, that while the first level of the hacks is exactly what we've already talked about, which is getting yourself motivated, disciplined, whatever word you want to apply, mindful of, you need to focus on your work. That's step one. And that gets the things on your to do list done and makes you productive and all of that. But. But you don't just sit down and do the things on your to do list. You are regularly involved in long, ongoing projects that require lots of little things to be done. Yes. But also a lot of planning to see the vision of, you know, getting from Point A of 0 to, you know, point Z of a finished book done. What hacks or what's your favorite hack that you've learned for, you know, being able to stay on task with a long term project that, that spans obviously multiple days and even weeks or even months.

Okay. And I'm glad you asked that because I don't know that I, you know, really pulled this out and made it a point of it in the book. But over the years I've. I've learned that the most useful thing for me in a big project is quotas. If I know my quota, if I take the page numbers by the number of days I have to turn them out and say, my quote is four pages a day. That gives me absolute instant feedback at the end of any given day of where I am, if I'm more than, say, four pages behind, I'm almost hopeless. And I better do something right now because on most of these schedules there's not a lot of flex. So if I lose A day or two days. So I build in some extra time. I'll make my quota a little bit higher than it needs to be. So I finish a little early. But having the quota lets you look at any given moment and say, okay, 40% of the days I have are gone and I'm 50% through the project. That's good. Or I'm only 25% through the project and the deadline's in a week. I'm screwed.

Yep. Yep.

I think the most important thing for me is just staying on top of that daily quota and not letting it ever overwhelm me. I used to let it overwhelm me and try to do all the work the last few days, and you do worse work that way. And it's not very healthy, I don't think, for your brain or your body or your family.

But yeah, yeah. Okay. So, okay, so you'll spend some time. And I know this is being a little pedantic, but at the beginning for you, a project is writing a book or this project was. You do many projects, but you'll spend some time in the beginning going through and planning and setting those goals for yourself, and then you just live with them. I mean, I'm guessing at some point you might revisit those goals, but. But it's.

If necessary. But usually just knowing that it's five pages a day and knowing how many days are left, it's pretty easy to do the math, even for me, and I'm not a math guy, but, you know, to just get a quick kind of view of where I'm at in the project. And as long as I've got that, as long as I don't feel like I'm going to fall behind and be overwhelmed soon, I'm comfortable with it. You know, it doesn't used to make me crazy. It's like I would almost be paralyzed.

Huh? Yeah.

As I got closer to the deadline, it got harder and harder to get motivated and do stuff until it was okay, you don't have any more hours. You have to work from now until dawn if you want to meet the deadline. And then, you know, then finally I do it, but it wouldn't be good. And so I avoid that at all costs. I can't remember the last time I went to bed after midnight.

Ah, that's awesome. That's great. Ah, that's good. Okay. So, yeah, so it really is about coming up with that plan. I mean, it's going all the way back. Right. To come up with that plan that then allows you the Freedom of not having to get stressed about anything because you trust this plan that you've built is going to get.

Trust your system.

Trust your system.

Yeah, build a system and trust it and you really become a lot less. I used to be much more intense and I used to have a lot shorter temper and now, and I'm positive it's a result of not being as stressed about finishing work and whether where the next dollar is coming from and things like that. I mean being self employed, you always think about that stuff, of course, but now it's not, it's not so bad. You know, it's like I'm able to plan things better and you know, books are a year project, they take nine months or a year. So I've already signed contracts for books that I'm going to write this summer. You know, I'm going to update all my For Dummies books this summer and, and I already know how much work that is. You know, it's like when we start on that, whatever day I start, I'll look at my deadline, I'll divide through by the number of pages in the book and I'll say I have to update this many pages a day to hit my deadline. And usually I get way ahead on that because I just get involved and I go, you know, I could probably finish this a week early if I just like put in two, two days. So it's like that, you know, the planning is really important. And let me say one thing about what goes on your daily plan. I don't just write work on the book because that would give me a license to go surf the web looking for cool gadgets and for. Oh yeah, and I really need a lumbar support if I'm going to sit in the chair any longer. And I mean, hey, that's work, man. This is work. So I will write.

Yeah, if you can justify it to the irs, you can justify it to yourself, right?

That's right. But to me, if I'm looking at my daily plan, it's more like write four pages in chapter seven by noon or finish chapter five and proofread.

Okay, so you're very, very granular with your.

Because they're 25 minute chunks and it's like I know what I can do in 25 minutes and if I assign it to a chunk like that, it gets done.

Where do you keep this list, Bob?

On my desk. And it's written in hard copy. And in fact one of the things is I made this myself. It's just a page full of like, grid paper with quotes around the edges to motivate you and a place to write all of your day from 6am to 7pm Most important, tasks, goals, and random notes. And you can get that and other goodies at my website. When you sign up for the newsletter, that's one of my, my, like, what do you call it? Giveaways?

Yeah, sure.

Because they say you have to give away 95% of your content, so I'm also giving away the whole book. All right, so sign up for my newsletter. You'll read the whole book in the next two years over and.

Where do people. Where do people do this, Bob?

Working Smarter for Mac users dot com. Of course.

Of course it is. Yeah.

That's some great tips, man. I mean, not just. I mean, we could talk about this for a long, long time, but excellent things about developing systems and being disciplined and all the stuff that, you know, guys like us that are jumping around from, you know, project to project. That's fantastic.

Well, Shannon, I have your email address and I will send you a copy. Dave, you're already on the list. You're getting the full court press list. The full court press kit.

All right. Sounds like fun.

It's got a picture and everything.

A picture? Well, I could use it.

And it's got a usb. A usb? Oh, check this out. I invented something. I'm selling autographed ebooks.

That's nice with it. Complete with a digital signature.

No, they have my signature on the back. They look like a credit card, right? They're USB drives that look like a credit card. So they have the COVID art for the book on one side and they're white on the back. So I sign them and number them and mail them to you. So you have something physical.

I like it. It's really smart, man.

Yes. Well, I actually bought them for the press kits, but then I realized because you have to minimums 100, so I ordered 100 and I thought, I don't know, 100 press people. I'm lucky if I know 20 people in the press, so I have to find something to do with these. So I offered them up as autographed copies. And what's cool is I just said they'd have a PDF on them. But it turns out I can give people a lot more than that because there's room on the. I didn't know how much room there would be. And also I didn't know if I could give the EPUB or the Mobi because. Because of restrictions from Amazon or Apple. But it turns Out. I have generic version. I can't give away the ibooks version.

Right.

But I give away my EPUB version. So they're going to get a USB stick with more than they bargained for. Plus I'm going to give them the super plan productivity planning worksheet and all the other goodies that you get when you sign up for the mailing list. And it's your last chance, by the way. I'm gonna. We're not gonna have any autographed copies starting well tomorrow, I think.

All right.

Yeah. Well, there were only 30, and I think I sold 28 of them or 29. So the next one that sells it goes away. Until next time. But that'll be the second. Second edition.

Very cool.

There you go.

Love it.

I'm making so much fun being a solopreneur, I can't tell you.

Sounds like it.

It is. You know, he is in marketing and I, I went to. I, I worked in advertising. That's what I thought. Be like, I was going to be an ad man, like, like on Mad Men, but I hated it. And I've always said, you know, I loved marketing. I just didn't like working in an office and wearing slacks and a tie and a jacket and stuff and, and having meetings. That was just not stuff I liked. But I liked marketing. And now I get a chance to do it and I don't have to argue with anybody. I don't have to fight to do it my way.

Right.

Except with myself.

Well, yeah, but that's sort of.

You're working on that.

Yeah.

You've got this technique. You're overcoming those battles with yourself to, you know, fantastic.

I try not to waste a lot of time on them.

Yeah. That's cool, man. Years ago, and I think I've said this to you, Bob, but years ago, a good friend of mine said to me, it's all about learning how to live with yourself, Dave. And you certainly have epitomized that and especially in this new book. So thanks for coming and talking to us today, Bob. This is awesome.

Thanks for having me. And, you know, after a few months, let's do it again and let's talk about the running the business side because I'm having a really good time, like building the website and having a store and seeing my sales results in real time. I'll have lots of small biz stuff.

Okay. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I've had a smile on my face during the whole show here, so you're definitely coming back on.

So awesome.

Great.

Well, I had a great time. Thanks so much for having me.

Thank you.

So you can find Bob at work at Smarter for Mac users.com or of course at Bob levitis.com and you can find us at BusinessShow Co or our small business support group on Facebook @businessshow co. Facebook folks, thank you so much for listening. Bob, thank you so much for coming on with us today. And have a great week and keep living that charmed life.

Take care, everybody.

See ya.

It.