Small Business Interview with co-founders of GrowpoVR and GoVRed – Small Business Show episode 125

The Small Business show, episode number 125 for Wednesday, June 8, 2017. Greetings, folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co the show by, for and about small business owners here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton and in the San.

Francisco Bay area, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you, man?

Actually doing well this week. Kind of a crazy week, but they all are. We got the holiday next week which is going to screw something up, but it'll be fun, so that's good. It's nice to have summer and all.

Yeah, yeah, it'll be good. Yeah, we're getting out of here for a few days as well, so it'll be nice. But before we can play, you know, we got to take care of business and hey, so we have a couple of guests today and we're here. We're going to talk about virtual reality and augmented reality. You know, you hear these words. Fun. Yeah, they're kind of throwing around a lot. You hear about a lot these days. Much of it sounds like it will be great someday, but there are small businesses out there that are already taking advantage of and creating businesses around it today. Joining us on the show is chase Dittmer and TJ DeShaw, co founders of Gropo VR Studios and Govred. Welcome to the show, guys.

It's great to be here.

Yep, thanks.

Yeah, thanks for joining us. So give us, give us some background. You guys sound like serial entrepreneurs. Every time I talk to you. We've got a new business popping up which is. Sounds kind of familiar. So give us, tell us about your background and how you got started working together.

Yeah, so like a lot of, I guess entrepreneurs, I've been, I've been self, or not self employed, but I guess you could say self employed. I've been running my own businesses since I was like 14, 15. I started with like a, I had a T shirt company and then I used to sell like snapback hats before, like I'd take the old like vintage ones before they became popular again and I would just start reselling those. I had a few e commerce sites all while I was in high school. And then my senior year of high school I actually had this iPhone repair business. I called it I jeweler. I was doing complete customizations and stuff. And this is back when like, so I think it was the iPhone4s was out so it was pretty easy to do the repairs and stuff. So I made quite a bit of money while I was in high school and then I used that to Pretty much pay for my college.

Nice.

Wow, that's awesome man.

Yeah, that's very cool. So obviously you know, grill post not your first company, what was the impetus for getting started in the VR business?

Yeah, so it was about. When was it?

May 2016 I want to say.

Yeah, when the Vive was like the consumer version of the Vive was first released and my friend, so TJ here had. We've been friends for years and he's always been building PCs. How many PCs have you built and sold?

I mean just throwing a number out there. Maybe like 50 or 60 or something.

Yeah, 50, 60 gaming computers that he's been selling and he's always had the best hardware and so when the Vive came out out he had the computer capable of doing it. And we actually did a demo and we tried it and we were like, oh my gosh, it's the coolest thing I've ever tried in my life. We went and bought a Vive like right on the spot. And then June 1st we opened a virtual reality studio, like a virtual reality arcade in our, in Battle Creek, Michigan. And so, so yeah, we jumped right into it from the beginning and I, within like the first two or three months I think we did like 500 demos.

Wow, that's cool man. That's, that's supply. Nice demand for that. So that, that space is. Other people can come, you know, strap on the goggles, connect to your machines and experience VR, that kind of thing. Or create it.

Yeah, they can, they can do that. And then we are just working on some other projects. That's why we kind of called it a studio, but it was more along the lines of an arcade. And we were just doing a lot of demos. Yeah, the first ones in like southwest Michigan to have a virtual reality arcade.

That's great, that's very cool. So I see a lot of information up on the website. Who's. Who's your target customer?

Well right now, so we're gov reds are like our primary focus right now. So the gropo VR is kind of like just like the umbrella definitely almost.

Testing the waters kind of.

And then so then we pivoted with. And so with Govred we're really focusing right now on like military and then like law enforcement and we're designing training simulators for them now.

That's interesting. So talk a little bit about more about that, that you're that target customer. Military, police or government agencies and how, how you know virtual reality and in their day to day stuff.

Yeah. So when we, so when we had the arcade open. We had a lot of like. So we. How many. How many police officers came through? 50.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, so we had a lot of police officers come and do demos, and they were just talking and we just. We were just asking them questions, like, how. How's training? What do you guys use for training right now? What. What are your current options? What are the problems that you guys see with the training simulator or with, like, the training sessions? And they just said that they don't have a lot of, like, they're. Once they leave the police academ, they don't do a lot of, like, combat or, like, live shooter training. And so then we were thinking, then like a light bulb went on in our head, like, oh, man, this is. This is a perfect opportunity for this.

Sure. Yeah, that's cool. Well, that's great. It's, you know, you're pivoting and looking at, you know, what feedback your customers are giving you and coming up with.

Something that served them and finding a way to capitalize on tax dollars, I mean.

Oh, yeah, that's right. It's a big, I would imagine, a very big market for that service.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's cool. So. So, okay, let's talk about the arcade for a minute. And then I want to. I want to get into gov red. How did you guys market it? I mean, what. What worked best for you to get the name out and have people start coming into the shop?

Yeah, so we used Facebook and we did like some Facebook targeted ads and stuff.

So mostly social media.

Yeah, mostly social media. But word of mouth for that just blew up insane because, I mean, a lot of these people have never tried virtual reality. So it was like, oh, my gosh, this is the coolest thing I've ever tried in my life. I'm gonna go tell ten friends about it. And then we started. So. And we would always record every. So everybody that would come in, we would record them, do get their demo and put it on YouTube. So then they shared it on their own social media channels. And it was just a lot of just like viral, like social. Like. Yeah, just normal. Doing it through their social networks.

That's cool. Well, you know, it sounds like one of the big benefits, or, you know, part of the secret sauce, if you will, was reacting quickly and getting, you know, not talking about it for six, eight months, but actually jumping in and getting the site up and running.

Yeah, like with the arcade, I mean, we never. We never created a business plan up front that as soon we went and got an art we got an office space and then we just kind of figured everything out after that. And then we had custom. The first day we had it open, we had customers in there.

Yeah, yeah, that's the way to do it.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

You can figure everything out as you go along, I think.

You know, I've always said business plans are best when written in arrears. Like in retrospect, like, okay, we tried a bunch of things that failed, that failed, that failed, this succeeded. Awesome. There's our business. Let's go.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean it changes every day. So every day just really, you really have to adapt. And I mean like, like we had to produce a business to get in the accelerator right now. We had to produce a business plan for Govra and that's changed a couple of times since we've been here, of course.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So let's talk about that. You mentioned before we started, you know, recording the show that you're at a business accelerator event right now. Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, so last week. Yeah, it was last week. On Monday was our first day. We're at the Iowa Startup Accelerator. It's in Cedar Rapids. Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And yeah, so we're in their accelerator right now. It was a 12 month commitment, but they have this 30,000 square foot building with a bunch of resources and it's been. So far it's been really helpful. We've been learning a lot. They have like a VR studio here, so we're able to take advantage of that and they have like a prototyping lab and stuff. So yeah, we're making some pretty cool stuff for VR here.

Yeah, that's killer. And do they provide like other support services and things for small businesses to.

Yeah, legal. Legal support, marketing support, design support, engineering stuff. They help us with our presentation and stuff. So yeah, it's a great resource.

That's pretty cool. Yeah. So I mean, I mean you don't have to go through the details, but I'm assuming you, you give some level of equity to them. Is that how this works or is.

Yeah, but it's pretty, it's pretty minuscule. It's not much. And like we had to create a new business to come to this. So we like incorporated in Delaware and stuff using the clerke. Which it's good resource. I don't know, I'm not, I have no affiliation with them so I'm not trying to plug them. But great resource and I mean it was very helpful. I was able to get all like the legal Documents in a couple hours.

And it's called Clerky C L E R K Y. Is that right?

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure it's a Y combinator. Back to startup.

That's cool. Yeah. Some competition for legal zoom and those guys.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. That's. That's very cool. So you.

You.

You fill all this out, or you did an application and they go through and contact you and say, hey, here's what you guys got to do to come in and.

Yeah, we were one of three teams that got invited, which. And the crazy thing is, so I had, like, the application date for this accelerator, like, in my calendar, but I had it wrong, I guess. And so then I checked, like, that week, and it was like, oh, this application's due tomorrow. It was that night. Yeah. So I had. I stayed up all night and I submitted, like, right at 12. But, yeah, luckily. Luckily, I guess we did pretty well on the application. Then we had, like, an interview with them. So.

Sure.

That's really cool. That's awesome. So, you know, moving fast is a huge benefit, but you can also.

Kind.

Of run over things and maybe forget things sometimes or make mistakes and that kind of thing. And we're big fans of mistakes on this show because they teach us all so much in setting all this up and getting things going really quick. Is there one mistake that you think you guys made that you learned a lot from that's going to help you move them forward?

I guess the biggest thing that we, like, the biggest mistake that we made is, like, making assumptions about your customers before you actually talk to them. So, like, you can design, like, a product, but if you're not actually talking to customers, there's not really a. Like, you're building a product for somebody that doesn't really have a problem, or they might not actually use this. So it's better to, like, talk to the customers and then, like, design your product around that.

Yeah, that is brilliant, man. I mean, we're at. We have an upcoming show. We're going to talk about, you know, reasons that businesses fail, and that is absolutely right up there.

Because. Making product for no one. Yeah.

Yeah. Well. Or even for yourself, you know, if you think it's so awesome and you want to do this thing, even though that's great, and you want to make a product that's going to please you or a service that's going to please you as well, you have to know if people are going to, you know, sign up for the thing and use it. Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. And that's one of the things that we learned. Like, they helped us with that here because, I mean, when we got here, we wanted to go, like, I have two engineers on my team, so they. We wanted to go right into the engineering and start, like, actually physically creating a product. And they're like, no, no, no. You guys have to hold up a little bit. And, like, so then they've had us doing these, like, customer discovery interviews and stuff. And, I mean, we've learned a lot. Our business, like I said earlier, our business has changed a few times since we've been here, and it's only been a week and a half.

Yeah, that's cool. And how long are you guys going to be as part of the accelerator?

Well, we have launch day on the December 7th, so that. That's the. That's the day that we're gonna be, like, unveiling, like, what we've been working on. But we've anywhere between six and 12 months.

That's great. Wow. You're gonna be, you know, completely different business owners by the time you get through that, I'm sure. That's really cool. That's awesome. Yeah.

I mean, even. Even the. I would quote, unquote, call a year together, we've just had so many different adaptions we've had to make and so many different changes to the company. From this perspective, I gotta imagine, or it makes sense, maybe a better way to put it, why so many small businesses fail. They go straight in spearheading their idea and they don't adapt at all. And to an extent, that's not going to get you anywhere.

Sure.

Yeah.

And that's such a great thing. With an accelerator like that or any kind of mentorship programs you get, you guys are jacked up, you're excited, you're jamming through, and that's a huge part of it. Having that energy to carry forward your idea and be passionate about it, but also having someone say, oh, hang on, hang on, do this first, and then that. So, yeah, I think you guys are really going to benefit from that.

Yeah.

You know, and it's kind of funny, too, because with all the mentors and their experience, we kind of joke around about. Or at least they do around, you know, if a mentor. You give them your spiel, your pitch, whatever, and they go through it and they. And they only give positive feedback, it's almost kind of a bad thing because then they don't see anything wrong or they're just being too nice.

Yeah. We have to tell the people to be mean. To us because they want to be nice, they want to be supportive. But yeah, we usually ask them, like, we'll go into like a mentor meeting and be like, tell us why you don't think this will work. Tell us what you think we're doing wrong. And we learn so much more from that negative feedback than we gained anything from positive feedback.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I mean, you need somebody to pick holes and tear apart your idea and your concept so you can learn from it.

Exactly.

That's very cool. So what do you think is the biggest obstacle to your success? Are you really focused on Govred right now? That's really kind of where your energy is.

Are.

Okay.

That's where our focus is right now. Yeah.

So what do you think that your, your biggest obstacle in, in that space is? And, and maybe you haven't even found it yet, but at this point, what do you think the biggest obstacle is and how are you going to overcome it?

You know, I think sometimes our age is, you know, some might be overlooked, but to other people, you know, you got two 22 year old, you know, quote unquote kids coming in with this idea and whatnot and it's, it's hard to say, you know, here's a large sum of money, we're just gonna trust you.

Yeah, it's hard to give a good big contract to a fast talking like 22 year old.

But you guys probably talk a lot faster than people that live in Iowa. Is that right? I mean, you seem, you talk way faster than most people that I grew up around and I grew up near New York. So. Yeah, yeah, we're a little fast paced.

We gotta slow down a lot of times.

Yeah, yeah.

And usually it's like the first like time we'll meet someone. Like we'll spend the first 15 minutes just doing a complete like D of just like knowledge. Because I mean we're excited and we have. So we know so much about this and then especially like with the virtual reality stuff we're going into somebody who can, going into these meetings with people who have a hard time working Microsoft Word and then we're dumping all this terminology and stuff on them that it's, it's. Sometimes we just need to slow down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But don't, but don't slow down in general. I mean, you know, you take that energy and let it keep fueling you along. I mean that's huge.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so how do you overcome that? I mean, how do you get past that point where you're right. And I've been there. And as a young man, I've got a bunch of companies that I've started. And when I was younger, my problem was always hiring people that were much older than me and figuring out a way to get them to do what I asked them to do. But what's your plan for. How do you bring those people? Because they're valuable, like you said. And how do you get them onto your side?

Well, with VR, it's kind of easy. I mean, we just put the headset on them and let that do the.

Talking for us, you know? Yeah, we always kind of joke around if we can just get them to try out the headset. The headset does talking for us.

Yeah. Like, literally, we just have to get in the door. We put them in the headset. We have them go through this training. And I have yet to see someone take off one of these virtual reality headsets without the biggest smile on their face.

Nice. So letting the product really sell is kind of your way, you overcoming that.

Right, exactly.

That makes sense. That's very cool. That's really good. So tell me, tj, Your background's in hardware and Chase yours. You know, done lots of different business things. Is this the first company that you guys have worked together on?

So we've known each other since we were, like, in fourth grade. So we've been friends since we were really little. And I mean, like, our last names. His is Dishon, mine's Dittmer. There's only, like. So like, even in, like, elementary school and stuff, every time you go alphabetical order, we were standing right next to each other.

We always had our lockers together in middle school and high school because, you know, you have dis and dit.

Yeah.

So, yeah, there you go.

Everything just kind of fell into place.

And so we've been talking about building a business together since we were little. And then. And then with the VR, it was like, okay, this is great. And then that's how we went from there.

That's really cool. I love it. I love it. So did you guys. And I don't know where you're at. Do you guys move together out to that area to. To be part of the accelerator?

Yeah. Yeah. So I went to school, like, in West Palm Beach, Florida, and then he went to Michigan State. So then once. Once we got accepted in the accelerator, we kind of just dropped what we were doing, and then we were like, all right, we're moving out to Iowa. It was like. What was it, two week notice? Yeah.

It was like two and a half week notice, so it was, it was a bumpy ride to get here. But you know, having said that, it's definitely worth it. And you know, now we have a house we live in together, so even, you know, even when we come back from work, we can always discuss our ideas and brainstorm, which is pretty much happens every day, honestly.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Right, well. And that's the beauty of being able to just kind of immerse yourselves in this and that. It's not impossible when you're older, but it's way easier when you don't have all kinds of things that you've collected throughout your life, like family and, you know, those types of things.

Oh yeah. I can't even imagine being a married man with two kids or something. It would have just been so. It was already difficult enough for me to drop everything and move out here in the first place, let alone if I had a bunch of kids attached to my hip.

Yep, exactly. Yeah. And so I'm. I'm curious about that though. How, I mean, I. You guys obviously have plenty of energy and you're just going to race forward no matter what anybody says. But I am curious. Well, you're welcome. It was meant as an observation. Neither a, neither a compliment or a, or a dig. It's just who you are.

I'll take it as a compliment.

Yeah, no, it is a compliment. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm curious what your families like, what do your parents think about this? Or your extended family, whoever your sort of support structures are that have been through, been in your lives with you. Do they think you're totally frickin nuts or do they think you're nuts and it's cool?

I would definitely say more of the second one. Any parents gonna be a little bit of skeptical about some accelerator says, hey, move seven hours away and, and you know, drop everything and you know, start this company, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

But I would say especially because I know Chase's parents too. We're both of our parents, just really, really, really supportive and yeah. Have always. Because we've been again, working about our. At this for about a year while, you know, living at home or living just outside of home or something like that. So they've always been kind of in the same picture. They just. It was something when we said, hey, yeah, we're leaving three weeks ago.

Right? Yeah, right. Yeah, right. This wasn't something where you had six months to sort of massage the message. It was, yep, here we go.

Yeah. Well, I think it's great is, you know, one of the part I love about doing the show is that we get different kinds of people on the show. We have real experienced people that come on and give their advice and this kind of thing based on, you know, years and years and years of experience. And then we have people, guys like yourself that are, are in the experience, that are experiencing it right now. And it's great to see both sides of that. I have one question too. So looking at VR, you know, and it's, it's. Well, I don't want to say it's on the fringe or it's kind of, I guess it's a niche, you know, Is it something that, you know, other small business owners should be thinking about as part of, you know, marketing their services or their product, you know, or something they could plan for the future. What do you guys think about that?

It really just comes down to like what, what industry they're in. I mean if you have like a brick and mortar, like small business, say you have like an ice cream store, a cool thing that you could do for VR is like you could set up a vibe there and I mean you could bring in a bunch of trap, bring in a bunch of people. You spend 2,000, 3,000 on like a VR headset and then you have entertainment to bring in all these other customers which can generate more revenue. Especially if, if you're in like a small town in like middle America.

Sure.

But then as far as like other. It really. Yeah, it really just depends on like what industry you're in and like businesses are taking advantage of it.

Yeah. And I could see, I used to, when I first got out of college, I was in the landscape construction architecture business and if I could strap that visor onto a potential customer and show them what their house and their landscape could look like if they wrote me a big fat check, that would have been powerful. Yeah.

I think a lot of people don't see the untapped potential that virtual reality has beyond just necessarily education or entertainment. Especially when you're going similar example to how you're going to show off landscaping. You can be an engineer anywhere and you're trying to show your supervisor what you did and instead of it being a three dimensional object on a two dimensional screen, you can put on that headset and literally walk around. It just gives you kind of an idea and puts it in perspective what things look like, the size of it, it, et cetera.

Yeah, that's great. And I love your idea too. Even if it's not related to the business you're in, even if you have, you know. We had a question a couple weeks ago from a woman that owned an ice cream store that was, you know, having a hard time competing, you know, with some stuff and coming up with different ideas. And, you know, you say, hey, just put one in as a, you know, just for marketing, Just to draw people into the store. I think that's. That's a great idea. That's very cool.

And it's great for, like, team. Like teamwork. So what's. Pretty cool. So, like, now when we do meetings, if we do a meeting and the person's not physically here, we have that. And, like, all the. Everybody that works with us has a vibe. So they'll get in their vibe and we'll do our meetings in, like, virtual reality. Because, I mean, I can sit next to sit with my virtual reality headset on. TJ could be a thousand miles away at his computer, and then we both go in the virtual reality, and I can, like, look on his computer in the VR and, like, so I can see what he's doing. If we're programming something.

Yeah. It's like sitting next to each other in a room, you know, it's even cooler just because the. With software, the sky's the limit, you know, so we just have like a. In that VR room, we have a giant projector in the back, you know, and I just hit a button, and all of a sudden, boom, Our screens up. So we're doing. And I gotta imagine this will be something that comes up for any big businesses or corporations is again, for meetings.

Anybody working remotely.

Yeah. It just makes life so much easier. Even now, you see in big corporations, people doing video calls and all this other kind of stuff, because their corporation might be in Japan, for example.

Sure.

You know, but being able to do it in virtual reality is again, just that whole nother leap forward of being able to. Yeah. Being able to explain something to something.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I suppose the biggest hurdle there is making sure everybody's got a computer that's got enough horsepower to actually make that experience work. Because we're not quite. To me, that's the biggest. I mean, yeah, you got to get the headset, but your computer probably doesn't support. This is the reality.

And that's almost like the biggest buy in sort of, you know.

Sure.

To that cost a good amount, no doubt. But, you know, just this generation of graphics cards have been able to actually push VR without, you know, costing just the graphics card $1,500 or something like that now that these consumer cards can do it without it. Without it being ludicrously expensive.

It's true. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Many computers sold today could do it. Yeah. So you're right. In the next couple of years, this could be a. A much easier sell if you would.

Sure.

And it's only gonna get cheaper and cheaper. Every generation gets more efficient, puts out more, you know, put. Can put out more frames, I think. And the biggest thing too is that even now the vive headset is 90 frames per second. The resolution's alright. You can definitely. It could definitely be higher.

Sure.

But by pushing those limits even farther, which makes that immersion factor much, much better, it's only gonna require more and more GPU horsepower. That's true. You know, so it's going to be also just with anything, it's going to be cool to see what comes out in the future and how much VR can evolve in just a year.

So are you guys doing stuff with augmented reality as well, where you're still seeing the real world around you and interacting with digital objects or you have any plans for that?

Okay, so we have a HoloLens and we have it sitting in a drawer. I mean, it's all right. It's just not that good.

I see. Yeah.

To me, it's probably what VR in. It's kind of like the Hololens is to. Augmented reality is kind of like what VR is to. Like the Samsung Gear VR, the, you know, the cell phone VR.

I see.

Which we almost kind of joke around and call the fake VR. It's just, you know, when we tell.

It's more of a 360 viewer.

Yeah. You know, we're gonna be. When we ask someone, you know, have they tried VR? And they say that we almost. Almost kind of chuckle. It's just like you haven't experienced it, you know?

Yeah. Like a cell phone can't put out the frames needed to give you that immersive experience. You're gonna get. Get. You're gonna get motion sickness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Have you tried the Hololens, Shannon?

I have not.

No, I have not. Yeah, I was at a dinner at CES and Robert Scoble was there and he's crazy about VR and AR these days. And. And yeah, he was. You know, there were only like 10 of us or something, so he kind of passed around his hollow lens that he was messing with and it was like, oh, okay, I see.

It's kind of a letdown for five grand.

Yeah, that was it. And he even said he's like, you guys aren't going to be happy. It took him, you know, it probably took him four or five minutes to configure the thing and get it all right. So that he could say, okay, put your head in, you know, put this on your head. And then see the little gnome or whatever dancing on the table. It's like, oh, okay, thanks.

Not quite there.

You can definitely put it on. And as someone who's, I mean, definitely a nerd like Chase and I, putting it on, we can definitely see the potential in it. It's just unfortunately, with the software and the fact that it's not hooked up to a computer, it's running off its own CPU and graphics card.

Yeah, but that is a great model. Right? I mean, once we can get the tech there, having that, having a self contained VR thing totally. Or ar, whatever it's going to be, totally skips that. But my computer's not fast enough. Nope. Just get this. You can join our meetings. Doesn't even matter if you have a computer. Right. Here you are. So, I mean, I do think that's the future. It's just like you said, the horsepower can't possibly be baked into that quite yet.

Well, I think. And that was one of the big things about VR not taking off really, till, I mean, the Oculus was moving around in 2015 and then 2016, the Vive came out, which really, really shook the world of VR. And again, a lot of that was held back. We had the tracking technology, or we had at least some really good tracking technology that would at least work to some kind of decent standard. Not necessarily what the Vive can do, but enough that you could move around and be more than a 360 viewer. But again, that issue was kind of bottlenecked by the fact that the most high end graphics card was subpar and it still cost $1,000.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

That's great.

Well, you know, it's. It's awesome. I love your enthusiasm and you've got a great story and I love hearing about your pivoting and adapting into new things and, you know, getting into the accelerator, it's. It's awesome. What's the best way for people to learn more about Govred and to connect with you guys?

Well, right now, our website, we're getting ready to launch like the second version of our Govred website. Okay. But we have a, we have a form like on our website if you want to just go to www.govred.com. it's G O V R E D dot com. There's a. You can put in your email address and we'll send out like a newsletter when we drop the version two of our website.

Nice. I'm all signed up. I'm ready. That's cool. Well, you guys have been great to have on. We'd love for you to come back after you, you know, go through the accelerator and learn all that. Come back and talk to us and share your story, how things went. And I'm sure, you know, you'll have pivoted even more and adapted and you'll have a great product that you're out there, you know, out there selling.

Cool. Awesome.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, it'd be very cool. I know a lot of small business owners that are interested in, you know, they are enticed by the concept of, you know, that type of investment and that sort of thing. But there's always the hesitation. So you guys are. You guys are living it. So you can come back and tell us how. How it did for you. Yeah.

Awesome. We plan to.

Cool.

Cool, man.

Cool.

Thanks again. We appreciate it.

Awesome stuff. BusinessShow Co folks, is where you can find us. And if you go to BusinessCo show Facebook, you can join our small business support group where we all help each other all the time.

Stop by.

That's right. Keep living that charm life. We'll see you next time.