Small Business Interview with James Rolin of Cowboy Cricket Farms – Small Business Show 184

The Small business show episode 184 for Wednesday, August 15, 2018. Greetings, folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co the show BFA by, for and about small business. A new sponsor for this episode, Gusto. Refreshingly easy payroll. We'll talk about how you can get a three month free trial of that shortly here. Here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How are you doing, man?

I am crazy, but, you know, it's good. I always say busy is better than the alternative. Yeah, I don't know that that's true though, because I have yet. It's been a long time since I've experienced the alternative, but. But I think it's true.

So, yeah, I would agree with that as well. Yeah, I'm hoping this, this Gusto, you know, Gusto, this new sponsor, they must use like go for the Gusto. Wasn't that a beer, some sort of beer tagline. A long time ago. That just seems like a. Yeah. When I heard you say, I'm like, oh, that's perfect. Go for the Gusto. They can just have that for free.

Doesn't even count towards their spot. That's right.

No, no, it's just. Just a bonus. This is how we roll here on the Small Business Show. So we've been talking a lot about implementing, implementation and how that is typically more important than an idea when it comes to small business success. And our guest this week can certainly talk about creative ways to implement a unique idea. We're really happy to have James Roland of Cowboy Crickets on the show today. Thanks for joining us today, James.

Hey, thanks guys for having me on. Super excited to be here.

Yeah, we really appreciate it. Yeah. I've been reading about your business and I'm really excited to hear and learn a lot about it because it sounds like such a challenging market to be in, but I'm sure you're going to tell me that it's not. So with that, let's jump right in to the discussion, talk a little bit about what Cowboy Crickets does and how you got how the idea started and. And you know, how you guys got to implement it, certainly.

So, you know, Cowboy Cricket Farms, it's not a name that really hides what we are. We farm crickets. That's awesome. Yeah. We are not exactly cowboys though. So my wife and I come from a military background. We were federal law enforcement officers in the Coast Guard for six years and we both got out, had a couple businesses and Then I went back into the Army National Guard as a medic, and now I'm going through officer candidate school. So we are definitely not in any way. Our background is in, you know, law enforcement and shooting. So. Sorry, Shooting stuff, yeah. And we learn quite a bit about this. But the whole thing was really her idea. We went to the bug buffet at Montana State University put on by Dr. Florence Dunkel there. And in fact, this year was the 30th annual. That's been going on for three decades now. And until probably last year, almost no one had heard about it. But she brought back the idea to me and said, hey, you know, this is the food of the future. We need to be with edible insects. I thought she was insane. Unless you're going through sear school or you're in Vietnam or Thailand or something, you know, people don't eat bugs, right? Well, yeah, I was, of course, incorrect, and as usual, she was right and I was wrong. So, year and a half, almost two years later, here we are just kicking butt and really trying to build this industry.

That's so cool. So talk a little bit about. Okay, so your. Your spouse, Kathleen, she had, you know, got things going, and then you joined her. And, I mean, how did you, you know, really take those first steps or what were those first step, but from sitting around having this kind of, you know, hey, this is a, you know, interesting, you know, some would call it crazy idea.

What.

What were the first things you did to. To get this thing rolling and to see whether, you know, you. You really had a business that would. That would work.

First thing we had to do was find out if this market even existed. And I thought it would take me an hour to find out it's illegal or there's no market, or there's, like, one company that's thinking about this, and that's it. Six months in to my feasibility study, I found out this market definitely exists, and it's growing. So, you know, finding some kind of preliminary validation that the industry at all can exist, I think is good. And then the next thing we did was we just started experimenting and telling people and trying to figure out, how do we communicate what we want to do to the public? And a lot of times, I think that happens accidentally. If you just try enough things, eventually you'll find something that people respond to. And that's actually how we came up with our chocolate chirp cookies. They were a donation item to the bug buffet, and before they had time to get auctioned off, they all got hey. So we figured if People are willing to steal these things. Maybe they'll even buy them. Turns out that is correct. And we've been able to use a similar approach of just listening to the market, listening to our customers, and seeing what it is that they need.

That's awesome.

Fascinating. So do you eat this stuff too, man? Are these tasty?

Yeah, of course. I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I didn't love that.

Yeah. I ask. I've only eaten bugs once, and it was on stage at a Macworld Expo a lifetime ago. It was some software company was eating bugs. They said they would eat bugs the next year if anybody found any bugs in their software, which, of course is always a guarantee. So I joined them to. For really. For PR motives, but otherwise, no, I've never eaten bugs. So this is a. It's not an entirely foreign concept to me, but it's a little bit different. That's pretty good, man. Yeah.

Okay, so you say you've never eaten bugs, but.

Right.

As far as you know.

Yeah. Do you like Red Vines?

Red Vines. I don't even know what that is.

Oh, that's a licorice.

Yeah.

Oh, licorice. Oh, I do know about licorice. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of licorice, as you might be able to tell.

Yeah, Skittles. Do you like Skittles or.

Yeah, maybe those.

Those red coffee drinks that Starbucks had for a while.

Yeah, I'm not a coffee drinker, but I definitely like Skittles. So there you go.

Yeah, awesome. Well, let's go with Skittles. Those little red ones. They use red dye 40. Red dye 40 is made by hitting a beetle shell. Oh, red food products. There's a good chance that you're eating beetle shells. They just don't call it that. Unlike some of the larger food companies out there, we're very customers, and we want them to know exactly what they're eating. It's kind of our whole shtick. So, you know, we put it right on the package. Everyone else tries to hide it, but there's many cosmetic products that use insects. There's supplements for women's health, use a type of beetle dung extraction. You know, so we're. We're at least feeding you the actual cricket instead of the cricket poop.

That's pretty good. Yeah. So, okay, so that. That's a. It's a really great segue into this question is, I mean, is the concept of eating insects, is that your biggest marketing challenge or is that not really, you know, or Well, I guess let's leave it there. Is that your biggest challenge?

Yeah, I think that it is still our largest challenge, but that is quickly changing and our next biggest struggle. And this is the one that we really deal with because the public's coming around the cost. It's a very expensive product right now, and we need to change that. You know, we sell, we retail our powder for $49 a pound. Now we wholesale for cheaper than that, but not a whole lot cheaper. So we need to get it to where we're retailing this stuff for 10 or $15 a pound. And I think we're just a few years out from that. That way we have more people who can actually afford to take that risk and try a new food product and benefit from the nutrition that comes with it.

Oh, yeah. Now I see on your site, you know, you sell the chocolate chip cookie, you'll sell the like. I don't know if it's protein or however, losing the name here off top of my head, but you know, you sell it in bulk. And is that for people to add to food and that kind of thing?

Cricket powder? Yeah, it's just dehydrated milled crickets. So it's just a fine powder. It's completely 100% cricket. And that's what goes into our chocolate chirp cookies. You can use in baked goods, shakes, smoothies, salad dressings, dog treats, anything you can put a powder in. We've got people who use it as just a spice or they sprinkle on top of soups and salads. It's a very versatile product.

That's cool. And so what marketing has worked best that you found for your business and getting your message across?

We've had to take a very non traditional approach to marketing. We have always bootstrapped everything in this business. We have a very, very small budget. Kathy and I are still a ways away from taking a paycheck in this thing. But we have found a few resources like YouTube that have been fantastic marketing devices for us. You know, if you bring value to someone, they will respond positively to that. You can't just throw it in their face and say, eat this, eat this, eat this. You can't even tell them necessarily eat this, because. But if we inform people of where their food is coming from, the systems that we use, how we do it, bring them behind the curtain so that they can see what we're doing. We found that people will completely change their mindset and not only will they eat the products, they'll evangelize them. They'll go out there and tell their friends and family all about this because they truly believe and understand it now. And it's all because we make sure that we bring that information out to the public.

Yeah, that makes, that makes perfect sense. Right? Yeah. Once you get them over the hump, then they're sold. Right. It's like, it's like any, like any. I mean there's that, that, that's a brilliant way to build, you know, brand loyalty and like you said, brand advocates. I like it. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. And I see, you know, on your, on your website, you guys, you know, pretty a good emphasis on education. You do tours and you're doing things in your community. Is, is that part of what you've worked out for your marketing and how, you know that, that helps you get your, your name out there?

You know, we, we've got a big old wrap on our car and so we're like this driving billboard. We're always wearing T shirts and, and we get lots of people who ask us anywhere we go in the world, they, they ask us about our shirts. We put a lot of emphasis towards branding. But education is probably the most sustainable and most affordable form of marketing that we have because we can have these groups come in and we've had people from all over the world. I've got a reporter from Japan coming next week. We've had people from Mexico and Canada and all over the US come to take our classes and do the tours and they go and tell other people. And again, it's all about understanding. It's difficult for people to know why we want them to do this. It's so unusual for our culture. So education is absolutely the key, especially with children because, you know, if we can convert a few adults to eating insect based products now, that's fantastic. But really we're looking 10, 15 years down the future, you know, down the road. And when we have our next generation that not only is willing but is comfortable with eating insects, which is something that 80% of cultures around the world do already, then we're really going to have a much different way of talking to the public and a different mindset. And we won't have to convince people, we'll simply be able to inform them of what else is out there.

Yeah, that's great. And I love that, the add value thing, I think that's just such a great thing to recognize in that. Oh well, you know, it's not always just about pushing your product. We're going to educate these people and you know, the, the sales and marketing will fall behind it. That's fantastic. Yeah, that's really great.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, you're, You're. You found this. You can be a big fish in this small but, but growing pond and makes a lot of sense. And. But to do that requires a lot of education, right? That's, that's the only way you can grow that pond. Need to be a part of that because you're, because you're the big fish in it. So, yeah, that's pretty good. Hey, Shannon, I want to take a minute and talk about our first sponsor, which is Gusto. Refreshingly Easy Payroll. Here's the drill. Payroll and benefits are hard, right? We all know this. It's like one of the things that as small business owners, we cringe away from. Right? You don't have time to be an expert in things like taxes and regulations, especially if you've got people in multiple states and doing different things. And old school payroll providers just aren't built for the way we all work, like in a, you know, minute to minute environment these days. So Gusto is making payroll, benefits, and HR super easy for you, the small business owner. And I say you, but I'm right there with you. Right? Modern technology does the heavy lifting, so it's really easy for you to get it right. You no longer have to be a big company to get great technology, great benefits, and great service for your team. So go to gusto.comsbs right? For small business show. So gusto.comsbs you get a free three month free trial of Gusto's full service. So they're making payroll, benefits, and HR super easy for small businesses. And you can do this, too. Again, Gusto.com SBS gets you a free three month trial, and that way they know that we sent you, and that's good for all of us. So our big thanks to Gusto for sponsoring this episode. All right, Shannon, what's. What's the next question?

Right on.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, I want to talk. Yeah, I want to talk about working with your spouse. You know, like, both Dave and I, we. We work with our spouses and various businesses, you know. And James, you, I believe you work with Kath. Have you worked out a system to keep work at the office and go home, focus on the kids, or are you guys all engrossed 24 7? What's worked best for you?

That's something that we're always working on. And unfortunately, we probably work more than we try to spend as much Time with our kids as we can. And they're troopers. They travel with us anywhere that we go with the business. And so we do get to spend a lot of family time together. But, you know, we're still working 16 hour days at least. So it's. Until we have, you know, the quote unquote, normal family life. But I think that we can, we can look at it a different way and just show, you know, we get to spend a lot of good time together. They're also seeing how you can work really hard and if you line up everything correctly with a little bit of luck, you know, good things can really come of it. But, but you have to be willing to put in that sweat equity. You have to be willing to put in the work.

It's true, right? It, like that's the lesson right there. And, and you know it. But you, you can, we can say it to our kids, frankly, we can say it to adults all the time that, you know, you've got to put in the work. And you know, we joke about it, right. Overnight success generally takes about 20 years, give or take. Right. You know, but, but letting your kids see that is something my wife and I definitely made a conscious decision to do. And it wasn't originally, it wasn't natural, right, because it was like, well, we want the kids to have normal family life and this, that and the other thing, it's like, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. There's this huge thing that we can teach them just by letting them watch. And so I think it's great that you're doing that right out of the gate. That's awesome, man.

Yeah, I would agree. I think it's just a huge benefit and they'll see, you know, and just seeing you guys work together and solve problems, I think it's fantastic. Let's talk a bit now. We've mentioned, you know, SCORE mentoring on the show here. They're awesome. And you know, free business resources. We talk about them a lot and linked them on the website. Tell us about your experience working with SCORE mentors. And I understand you guys are, you know, one of the winners. 2018 Small Business Championship. And how's that help you guys?

Has been amazing. They are a fascinating and fantastic resource. And the reason why I say fascinating is because they have. It's not like you're just talking to someone that once had a business or that they grew up in an entrepreneurial family. There's such a third amount of experience within the SCORE Mentor Network and you have everything there from CPAs to CEOs and people who started their own business to exited on an IPO or sold it to a big company or still operate a small bakery. It's just everywhere. And they're all willing to give you their time as long as you're willing to listen and actually do something constructive with it. So we've been very fortunate to have a guy named Rick as our SCORE mentor. We actually have a couple, but he's kind of our main one. Work with a guy named Brimstone. He's a retired wrestler now, does a lot in the entertainment space, and they've been fantastic as well. So working with them, we get just this variety of experiences. And, you know, they've done simple things like saying, hey, you know, maybe you should charge for tours instead of just giving away your time to everyone. And now that's one of our major income sources. And when we start charging, we got more tours. So it's, you know, education increases and then sales increase. It's, you know, such a small little tweak that we couldn't see from the inside looking out, but they could.

Yeah, that's great. And how did you get connected with them? Were you just searching around on the web or did somebody reach out to you?

Googled, you know, business help and SCORE came up as having a place in Bozeman, Montana here. And at the time, I wasn't completely sure what they could do, so I figured, well, it can't hurt to schedule a short meeting and, and see, and, you know, sure enough is exactly what they said. It's free. Some places, you know, they're quote, unquote free until you actually need something from them. SCORE is always a hundred percent free and willing to help. And we've had nothing but just positive, absolutely wonderful stuff to say about them.

I want to highlight something that you said there, and I think maybe our online connection might have sort of Skyped it up a little bit there. But you said you found SCORE by searching on Google for business help. The fact that you did that is a huge step, right? So many of us, and I'm definitely guilty here, you know, we. We get into business, we have to convince ourselves that we can do it all on our own. And it. And there are times when that is actually true. You have to do it all on your own. But you, you don't have to keep from asking for help, right? Sometimes you're not going to get the help you need, and then you just need to do it. But asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It's Actually a sign of a very, very smart person. And the fact that you just googled business help is a huge thing, man. Like, kudos to you for. For just taking that step and doing that and then finding people that. That are actually like, you know, your story's a testament to why that's such a good idea. So very cool, man.

Thanks. Yeah, I mean, asking for help has been kind of. That. That's my deal. I. If I don't know something, which is usually the case because I'm not a super smart person, then, you know, I go and find someone that does. And between Score and Blackstone Launchpad here at msu, we've really found some people that can really help to support us and have pushed our business well past anything that I could have done by myself.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I love hearing that. So let's talk about success a little bit. Everybody measures it differently. Everybody uses, of course, money and how the business is going. But, you know, what's the yard stick that you and Cat know, maybe beyond the monetary words that. That keeps you going forward, keeps you motivated every day when you have to slog through the, you know, the. The cricket frass on your way to the, you know, to work. Give us some feedback on that.

Given how unusual of a business we have in most people's, you know, eyes. And I would have to agree with them, it's still rather odd here in the US to insects. But every time that we get some kind of a formal validation, you know, we either have a major publication that wants to pick us up or we win a prestigious award to fuel us. And, you know, it could sound a little bit like we're full of ourselves with that, but it's. It's quite the opposite. We have no idea whether or not we are doing things correctly. You know, I don't think anyone in business truly does. You have to find a metric to measure by. Money is an easy one, but with a startup, money isn't always there. So the more traction that we get within the media and within, you know, major awards, it tells us that we have validation and that we're doing something right on that path.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I would say so much of what you've talked about in the last, you know, 20 minutes or so is about education, sharing, and educating people about what it is you do do and how it can be, you know, used and adding value to their lives, but also educating yourself and not, you know, that statement that you said, we don't know if we're doing things right, that's powerful. And the fact that you're comfortable saying that, you know, is just a huge thing that I think really bodes well for your. Your future success as well, because that. That's fantastic that you're at that point.

Most investors don't like hearing that, just so you know. Of course.

Yeah, they want your civilian confidence.

They.

They feel the same way. Like, they won't say it out loud. Like. Like you will, but. But they definitely. I mean, they're. You know, they're just betting on. On different things. Yeah. Nobody knows if they're doing everything right. You can't. That's crazy. Yeah.

Yeah, I would agree. So along the lines, you know, we're. We're kind of big fans of mistakes on the show, probably because, you know, I know I've made a lot. I don't think Dave's made any. But since, you know, they teach us so much, we learn, you know, a lot. What do you think has been your best mistake that you've made with your business that you've.

That.

That's taught you the most?

Man, we. We just screw stuff up so much. I don't even know. I feel like all we're doing is really riding a wave of mistakes, and they tend to tend to bring us to some pretty cool places, actually. Every time we think we're doing it wrong, turns out we just find something else to do.

That's great.

So the best mistake.

Yeah. You know, something that you might. Well, and maybe it's just recognizing that those mistakes can maybe work their way out. As long as you keep moving, keep taking action.

Absolutely. You know, I think most of it really does. I. You know, Here we go. The. The biggest but best mistake that I've done is thinking that it's all gonna end. Seems like it's every other week. The whole business is just gonna fall apart. We're gonna go bankrupt again, and everything's just gonna be horrible. And every single time that that happens, I find out, number one, there's something else on the horizon. And number two, it just pushes me even that much harder to keep working. And I. I really believe that everything isn't necessarily easy, but you can will your way through stuff if you're stubborn enough. And, you know, that that's kind of my whole strategy is. And that's what I've learned in the army is, you know, they give you this insurmountable task, and, like, hey, you need to, you know, pull three clicks over this, you know, rough terrain within the next hour, it's like, that's not even possible. But you don't really get the option of saying no. I don't get the option of not feeding my children. That's not going to happen. Or not paying for, you know, a house to house them. So instead of complaining about it, well, I just work on it. And Kathy and I do that together to make sure that we always will succeed. Even if makes sense on paper yet, we'll. We'll find a way around it.

I always say, man, the. The. The secret to my success, my, My. My secret sauce is bullheaded persistence. It's the only thing I got it. You know, that's what you get. Yeah. You just go through it.

Yeah. Blind ignorance.

That's another way of saying it. Yeah. And I hear that stubbornness and persistence in your voice, James, and that's awesome. I also want to thank you for.

Your service.

And recognize that as well. You learned a lot, obviously, in the military. Right now, there's thousands of small business owners that are listening to us chat here. If you could offer a single piece of advice about running a small business, what would you. What would you offer up for them?

Yeah, I would say it's. It's not even with running the business. It's figuring out whether or not the business should exist. Make sure you're solving a problem. That's the only thing a business actually does. People think that they exist to make money. Businesses do not exist to make money. They exist to solve a problem. And if you can solve that problem better than anyone else or before anyone else, you will have a business that makes money. You are not actually solving a problem that exists. If you're trying to create a problem to solve, it's not going to work out because no one will want to buy it. Make sure that the problem actually exists.

I love it, man. That's fantastic.

That's one of the best pieces. Three and a half years and I'm at a loss for words. That's a fantastic piece of advice.

It seems so basic, but, you know, it's missed by a lot of folks, and a lot of folks go through a lot of trouble and not. Not understand that. So that's awesome. Thank you for that.

It's a lot to learn that.

Yeah, that makes sense. We're all get there. I love it. It's a great story. You know, we really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your information with us, and, you know, you. You're a little hard on yourself about not knowing stuff or whatever, but I would argue that you know a lot and it's. And obviously this journey has, has changed who you are and I. You'll continue to evolve. You have to come back and check in with us in the future so we can, you know, see how you're doing.

Absolutely. I'd love to be back on.

That's cool. So what's the best way for our listeners to learn more about Cowboy Crickets Farms?

Cowboycrickets.com with an S at the end. Just search for Cricket Farm Montana on Google and will will be the one that pops up or any social media, basically. At Cowboy crickets, we're on YouTube. You can watch a whole video series on how to farm crickets. And anyone who is interested in becoming a partner farmer. We're the only company out there that offers us. We will, we offer training and resources and a guaranteed customer to. To buy your crickets and all of the support that you need to actually have that business operating. We need crickets to process into food and we need people to help raise and farm those crickets for us.

Wow, that's great. What a great message.

Business opportunity right there, folks. There you go. Wondering what to do. You too, can farm crickets. There you go.

Well, thank you again, James. Some really powerful lessons here.

Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, thanks, man. Such a good. So much good stuff as always. We get to learn so much from you. Thanks so much. Visit us businessshow Co. Keep living that charmed life. We'll see you next week.