Small Business Show Interview with Cory Fosket and Doug Butcher of Tanglefree Waterfowl – Small Business Show 134

The Small business show episode 134 for Wednesday, August 30, 2017. Greetings, folks and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co the show by, for and about small business owners here in Durham, New Hampshire.

I, Dave Hamilton and Concord, California. I'm Shannon Jean. Last. My last recording in this building.

Oh, yeah, man, that's exciting.

Yeah, it's good stuff. I'm really excited. Yeah, it's good. How was, how are things out there?

Things are crazy. It's insane. But it's weather wise. We're actually having a really nice. It's an early fall. I don't know if it'll last. You know, I think we'll get back to some summer heat in September a little bit, which typically happens, but it's been, it's been like in the 50s at night. It's.

It's been awesome. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Well, here, you know, we're coming up on duck season and anybody that knows me, you know I'm an avid waterfowl hunter. I spend as much time outdoors as I can get away from the computer. And I work with Ducks Unlimited all the time to raise awareness. We do fundraisers and stuff. And I've really, I've had the pleasure to meet a lot of people and a couple of folks that I've met, Doug and Corey from Tangle Free Waterfowl. And they're joining us today for an interview. And you know, these guys have taken a company with literally a classic brand of, of decoy line, Tangle Free Line, which believe me, is critically important when you're out there in the marsh and pulling in your decoys. And they've expanded into all kinds of new products to serve waterfowl hunters, outdoors enthusiasts. So Corey and Doug, welcome to the Small Business Show. And we're sharing a mic here today, folks. So it'll be a little back and forth, but these guys are awesome.

Yeah, man. Thanks for having us guys. We appreciate it.

Glad to be here. Thank you.

Awesome. That's great. So, hey, I know about your company and a little bit about your background. We've talked a lot different events, but tell our listeners about your backgrounds. What'd you guys do before Tangle Free and why did you want to get into this business?

Yeah, I'll take it first. So this is Corey. Basically the way we came upon the business was kind of pretty random. But the way it started is I was doing some work in the health and nutrition industry. My sister was doing work in the auto body industry. Running an office. And my parents came to us one day and just said, hey, like let's, let's try to do a business that we can do as a family. So we started meeting a couple times a month with my parents and our CPA and just kind of started throwing a lot of stuff to the wall. And long story really short, like we stumbled across our. One of our CPA's clients had a company that was an outdoor garden furniture pruning shears and they had a factory overseas that had some blow molding capabilities and they kind of dove into doing some plastic decoys. So we, we went to them to see if they had any industry.

Sure.

And they said no, my dad's very persistent. We went back to them again and they said, okay, finally, fine, we'll meet. So once they met and saw that we're a local family, it was going to remain family based. They were fantastic. And that company is Bonn Manufacturing. They're located out in Antioch and they're a family based company as well. So that was 13 years ago.

Did you buy the whole company or.

A part of the company? Sorry. So I purchased the decoy division.

Got it. Okay, cool.

And you know, it was a great time for them to get out because they clearly had bigger fish to fry, so to speak, with the outdoor patio furniture. They've really extended their line as well. So then a month after we purchased Bon's decoy division, we found that Tangle Free was. Which was owned by Dan Kiernan in Martinez, California. He just was looking to get out and that was like a blessing in disguise. It was incredible. We became very good friends with Dan. We, we purchased Tango Free and then we rolled everything from the Bond name into the Tango Free name because it was an established name. It had been around since 1972. It had, you know, a PVC type decoy line and a lead anchor. And that's what Tango Free was.

That was all they sold, right?

That was all they sold.

Ye.

And then when we, the month prior when we bought Bond, they had about 15 to 20 SKUs of basically recycled plastic blow molded. And they just kind of jumped in the market and just kind of made a splash really on price. It was really about price for them. So yeah, that's, that's how.

And did you and you and Doug work together? Doug, from the start on the project or did you come on at a certain time or.

Yeah, so I came on later. So I've been with the company for about seven years.

Okay.

So prior to that, about the same time, you Know, Corey and his family were taking over Tangle Free in the bondiquid division. I had started my own business with another partner doing call center sales and customer service. And we built up a couple of clients and had a pretty long five to seven year business history. And the economy kind of tanked in 2008, and my business started to suffer, and so I was looking for a way out.

Sure.

And timing just happened to work out perfect. You know, Tangle Free was starting to grow and expand, and they needed some extra support. And so it was the perfect timing for me to shut down what I was doing and jump on board with Tangle Free.

Awesome. Sounds like you stepped in to fix all the mistakes that Corey had made up to then. Right.

I usually don't mention that the first six, seven years.

No. That's great. That's cool. So you guys get going. Everything. You know what surprised you the most about. I mean, because not only are you taking over one business, but you're really, you know, you're combining two, you know, which is doubly difficult, I would imagine. What. What kind of stuff surprised you the most when you did that?

Yeah, actually, I'm going to back up. Just.

Okay.

Yeah, sure, sure. I'm going to laugh about. So. So Doug's. Doug's my younger cousin. We've been close from. Since the time we were kids, so we work together in the health and nutrition industry. And it's actually really funny. I can remember one evening he was at our warehouse, like, literally two months into the. To the business, and we were putting up some racking. We were. And I was talking to him and I said, hey, man, like, how. And he's like, you know, it's okay. And I said, well, look, man, if you. If you want to come, I'd love to have you. Like, obviously we work together. That night he called me and said, hey, like, I think I'm gonna go into this business. Said, hey, awesome. Good for you.

I was excited, really.

Doug and I often spoke about it because had he come on board that much earlier, like, I think our company actually, I know our company would have been way further along, but everything happens for a reason.

Yeah, sure.

Doug and I talk about that too. Like, he went and learned what he learned, I learned what I learned, and now we. We use that to our advantage.

Yeah.

So that's a great story. Yeah, it's cool. That's really good.

So to answer the question, if I got it right, is how did we merge the two companies?

Well, just. What, what, you know, I'm sure you you take over this, you know, bond manufacture, the, the decode division you get with Tangle Free and, and you kind of have set perceptions of how things are going to work. You know, what, what, what surprised you the most when you try to get these two things off the ground, you know, that maybe that you remember.

Yeah, I think, I mean, probably the hardest thing, and we're gonna talk about that a bit later, I think is trying to build a brand.

Yeah.

You quickly realize and 13 years ago, building a brand is way different than building a brand today.

How so?

A digital market.

Yeah.

You know, social media, I mean, that's huge, you know, so, you know. Yeah, really, it was just about trying to build the brand.

Sure. So, and when you say that you think, do you think it was more difficult back then to build the brand or now with all the tools you have? But at the same time you got to get your, you know, making yourself heard and mixed all the stuff out there. What's, what's, what's harder?

You know, it's funny, I've never really thought about it that way. I would think if I knew now today about product and what the industry was looking for, I would think if, if we had a much higher quality of product back then, I think it had been easier. I think there's a lot more competition today that we deal with. And I also think that the quality of plastic blow molded decoys being painted overseas is tremendous. It's not even in the same ballpark from where it was 13 years ago.

Tremendously better.

Tremendously better.

Absolutely.

Interesting.

So in terms of building your brand though, would you say that it's the, perhaps the lower barrier to entry now, whereas previously you had to do a lot of hard work to even get to a point where someone could notice your brand. Whereas now, you know, you start a Facebook page, you start a Twitter account. All right, well, here we are, you know, and, and that means that your competition can do the same thing too easily.

Yeah, without a doubt, Dave. It's now with, you know, the social media side of things. You know, people are wanting to connect with brands on a whole different level nowadays than they were, you know, a decade ago. People want to, you know, be part of the lifestyle that you're representing with your brand. And so, you know, we're able to make that happen with social media. And, and it's been super exciting. So we went through a rebrand of our logo about five or six years ago and costs a tremendous amount of money to contract someone to go through that process. But you know, what we got out of it is really invaluable. It's really helped catapult our brand. You know, the strategy that we put forth with our rebranding campaign and social media has really, you know, catapulted us to the next level.

Yeah, yeah.

And you did. You did the logo, you did your website, you did the whole thing, right? The messaging, everything's got to be updated.

It sounds to me like your brand engagement is. Is a huge part of not just your overall business, but your. Even your daily business. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we, you know, really focus on, you know, very quality content that we're providing to keep our customers engaged. And, you know, you have to think about, you know, touching that. That consumer, you know, throughout the year, not just when it's time for them to buy. And so we want them to connect our brand throughout the year, and then when it comes down to when they need something in the waterfowl category, that hopefully they think about our brand when it's time to make a purchase.

Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. I think you guys do a good job of it when. When you were started. Okay, so you're doing social media stuff. What. What other kind of marketing are you doing to get. Are you guys. Are you sell to stores, dealers? How do people find your stuff and, you know, learn about it?

Yeah, you bet. So we do sell to. We're a wholesale account that sells to, you know, your big box stores, like Bella's Bass Pro Shop, Sportsman's Warehouse, you know, so we're in some of the big guys. We're also in a lot of mom and pop stores, small independent dealers. But, you know, who's the better customer?

I don't put you on the spot. I'm sure there's different pros and cons to each one, but yeah, you.

You have a better relationship with the small guys.

Yeah.

And it means more to them. And, you know, you're just an avenue for something on the shelf for the big box guys. And they're usually on to the next greatest thing if your products aren't performing or whatnot. But ultimately, our strategy moving forward is to make sure that we're connecting with the individuals, because ultimately the individuals are the ones going to the stores, whether it's a big box, whether it's a small independent, or our website. And they're choosing to connect with our brand for a reason. And so it's really connecting with those individuals.

Yeah. And I think there's two really good points that you guys do a good Job of talking about one is focusing on the quality early on. Because I've been in that same position where you, you want to come out and make an impact and your price is easier. Right. To focus on that. But in the long run, it becomes maybe more difficult. And then the second thing is that, you know, you're probably a more important partner to a smaller account where maybe everybody's chasing these bigger guys that, you know, have a completely different pricing model. So maybe the values there and the smaller dealers, that kind of thing.

Yeah. And along those lines, the independent dealers, typically you're dealing with an owner of a store so you can build that relationship like we talked about. And you know that every year when you meet with him, it's going to be him, you know, with the big box. Unfortunately, they do go through changes and they do that strategically. There's reasons for that. And it's hard. It's a roller coaster. One, two years. One or two years, you have a great relationship with a buyer, things are great. And all of a sudden you get the email that says, hey, we've changed someone' and you're like, oh, man, we got to start from ground zero. And ground zero means you don't know if that buyer already has prior relationships with competitors.

Sure.

And you know, that's difficult. And you know, when you're. When I was first doing that at the early stage of the business, like, I'd get rattled. And you have to really realize, like, hey, just that's just the way it's going to be. Like, yearly, like things are going to change. And, you know, you talk about big box versus independent dealers. Well, Doug touched on a little bit, but, but really it's who comes in with the best price, who's got the, the most aggressive terms. You could be a rock star with them one year and you think everything's great, and the next year you're like, you feel like, you know, the stepchild, you know, just get it, get a meeting. So you've learned to just, just, just, just roll with it. You know, I find since we deal.

With something similar to that in one of our businesses here, and I always have, we have learned that when a new buyer comes in, it's almost worth forcing them to redefine the deal that you have so that they feel like they have ownership owner over it as opposed to, oh, this is this deal I inherited from this other guy. And it's easier for them. There's no emotional attachment to, to it at that point.

So totally agree. Like, nodding my head here we're all kind of smiling, laughing, but you're 100% right. We agree, Dave.

Yeah.

It seems crazy to, like, take an existing contract that doesn't need to be renegotiated yet and force it to be, but often it pays dividends.

Yes, sir. Yeah, you're exactly right.

Yeah. And you kind of have to, like, Mark, I would imagine, market to those guys as well. So in addition to you trying to connect with the, you know, the end. Ultimate end user, you're connecting with these other guys, and then you have buyers come in and you've got to kind of get them on board with story and why they should go with you, that kind of thing. I mean, it's. It's a challenge, man. I imagine.

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, as we increase the awareness of our brand, that just makes us that more of a, you know, important partner.

For sure.

The. The retailers out there.

Yeah, yeah. They're hearing their customers ask for it, that kind of thing, I would imagine.

Yeah, exactly.

No, that's cool. That's cool. All right. So we asked this. This question of everybody that comes on the show, and it's probably because I've made so many mistakes in my life that I always want to know about yours. So, you know, what's.

What?

You know, we're fans of mistakes because you learn so much when. When they happen, and usually maybe later down the road and you look back. But what do you think the best mistake you've made with Tango Free that taught you the most?

Well, I don't know if it's a specific mistake, but it's. It's more of a mindset for me. You know, for me, it's not thinking ahead far enough, you know, being more in, you know, what do we need to do to make this business successful today versus how it be successful in three to five years from now? And so, you know, really trying to be ahead of the curve and think more about the future is a mistake that I made early on. And I feel like now we're putting plans in place to be, you know, thinking further three to five years out and how we're going to get there and having more of a plan in that regard.

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, it's like that. I always talk about this e myth, you know, buck about working on your business versus in it every day. And I mean, I've made that same mistake.

Yeah. And we had that discussion a couple weeks back, you know, for me, and I agree with Doug. I'm going to go Back from day one. You know, we're going through the acquisition, we're purchasing it. Like I've got spreadsheets that say, hey, this specific SKU costs $10 and this SKU costs $12. Well, in a two month period, I got so programmed decoys cost and what we were going to wholesale them for and what they'd retail for. We went to a trip to China and part of the purchase agreement was bond manufacturing would go on two trips to China with us, help us make the introduction. And it was incredible. They were fantastic. So we go to our current decoy supplier at that time and you see the product, you see everything. That's my first time ever being in a factory like that overseas. And it's pretty amazing. And I don't think anything of it. And what I mean by that is the quality. You just think, cool, here's a 10, here's a decoy. A dozen.

Yeah, yeah.

Supposed to be. So they say, hey, we got this other meeting set up with this gentleman and his pricing is the same and his quality is way better. So we go there, you know, two days later and you walk in and I'm instantly like, this stuff looks incredible. And I'm like, I'm just like, just so excited, like, wow, this is incredible. And I'm as green as can be. I don't know what I'm doing. So all of a sudden this $10 dozen decoys is like 13. And I like freak out, like not freak out like to him, but freak out like we can't do that. That's way too expensive. We have a $10 a dozen decoy. We talk about mistakes and basically the mistake is, had I known now which is waterfowlers want quantity or quality. Yeah, they're willing to pay for that. The sooner I could have switched from the price point. You pay for what you get.

Yeah.

And I know, you know, prior lunch meetings we've had like, we talked about that. It's like, so if you kind of want a, a price point decoy that's going to last a year and it's going to get beat up and fade and paint's going to come off, you're, you're going to get that.

Yeah.

If you're willing to step up and pay a little bit more like with quality. So I look back and I think to myself, man, like, what if we made that change right out of the gate? Like, how much stronger would our brand.

Yeah, 30% increase in cost.

It would have been a piece of cake. And it's A mistake, but you learn from it.

Yeah, absolutely. It's valuable.

We don't make those mistakes like that again.

Yeah, that's right. That's good. That's cool. So, you know, looking at things, you know, we all business owners, you know, cash is king and this profit and that kind of stuff, but we all have these kind of different measurements. And you guys and I, we've talked about this before, but, you know, beyond cash and that kind of thing, how do you guys measure success, you know, with your business and how it relates to everything?

Yeah, so I'll take it first, then I'll let Doug give his answer. You know, it sounds really kind of stupid, but it's kind of whatever's in my head. But for me, when we went through the rebranding, like, Doug said, it was a substantial investment, and it was the right decision at that time, and we're very excited about that. What. What. What's exciting for me is to see the end consumer waterfowlers across the country wanting to be affiliated, wanting to wave the tango free flag. They want to buy a hoodie. They want to buy a T shirt. They want to have decals on their trucks. And. And then when they post it on social media, like, we're not asking them to do that, but, like, they'll send, like, pictures of them opening a box of decoys or, like, them with their family wearing our. Our logo gear. So for me, I'm like, okay, hey, like, we're doing something right. Hey, this is a brand that, like, I stand behind. I like it. And. And along those lines, too. I think a lot of that has to deal with how we relate and treat these customers. I mean, we truly care about the customers. We want to make sure they know we're there to back them. So I think they see that. I think they like the product, but I also think they know, like, hey, if there's an issue, like, I can call these guys. I can email them. It'll be taken care of. And I think Doug's got a. A little different spin on it.

Yeah, well, it's authentic, right? I mean, I think it's. It's the truth, and it's great.

Yeah, no, it's really kind of really along the same lines, you know, people supporting our brands and us. To be able to, you know, we get contacted quite frequently from, you know, nonprofit organizations, wounded warriors, different programs like that. We work very closely with Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, California Waterfowl Association. So, you know, to be able to, you know, give back to Those organizations that are the, you know, a lot of them help support the future of the duck hunting community and making sure that wetlands are being conserved and for the next generation coming up. And so, you know, being able to, you know, give back to some of those organizations is. Is very rewarding. You know, aside from the whole monetary thing.

Yeah, sure. No, it's awesome. I think that's great.

And sorry. The other is think if I'm gonna get this right. So we talked about judging success, right?

Yeah.

Doug, myself, my sister, you know, we. We kind of like to look at as, like, we feel that our best years are ahead of us. We're super excited about where we're at today. I think one thing Doug and I have really tried to work on with my sister is like. Like he mentioned earlier is like three to five years out. Like, where do we want to be in three to five years? I think for a lot of years we kind of got our head got stuck below the sand, like, just trying to keep up with grinding it out. Grinding it out. We've talked about that too, and we're really going like, okay, where do we want to be in three to five years? How can we differentiate our product line? How can we expand our product line? So we certainly are very competitive people and we look at our best years ahead of us, for sure.

No, that's great. It's definitely, I think, the attitude you need to have. Why wouldn't you? What's the alternative? Right. That's not good. So, so, okay, so what's. What do you guys think is the biggest obstacle to getting to that three to five year point where you want to be? What's holding you back the most and what's your plan to power through that?

Yeah. So I'm not sure if there's anything that is necessarily holding us back. You know, at this point, we've been doing this long enough so we have the ability to get to the levels that we need to. And so we've been strategically putting things in place, you know, adding additional employees and just making sure that we're just more prepared when it comes to it. So if there's any obstacles, it's in our own head. And so. Good answer. So I guess that answers it.

That's good. Yeah, that's great. That's awesome.

So.

And I know you guys have spent a lot of time overseas in China and, you know, setting up, manufacturing, this kind of thing. What tip, you know, what bit of advice could you give a new business owner? That's. Okay, great. I need to go to China, I've got to make these connections and get this product built. What were some of the key takeaways that you've learned doing this for the last 13 years?

Yeah, so typically I do most of the traveling overseas to the factories and Doug kind of stays at home and runs like, you know, runs things with my sister, you know, oversees the warehouse amongst many things. It actually works out really well also because when I'm over there meeting with the factories, I'm going to say daily I'm Skyping, having conversations with Doug, doing video facetiming so we could see what's going on about a product improvement or a product flaw. There is no question the importance of finding the right factories. And what I say by that is, you know, I kind of talk about the inexpensive price point decoys. That was a bad partnership, really. Truthfully, the guy was really unfair and he always would try to say one thing and then like back out of the deal and like put less material in. So the biggest thing I found in going over there, I think I probably know there just about 30, 35 times last time. I don't know the exact number. But the key is to find a factory that you can build a relationship with. Like, you know, we have a couple factors now. The one gentleman comes to visit us twice a year now. And you know, when I go to visit him, like he will make sure to ask me like, hey, are you up to going to my house? I'll say, absolutely. I'll go to his house, I'll play with his three boys. I walk in, they're calling me Uncle Corey. That's great. And truly the way we look at it is we become friends, it's a partnership and we want long term relationships. And you know, too many times, you know, talking about advice, too many times companies from the US go there and they want to like beat up on a factory and like try to nickel and dime with everything. But you have to realize like if you beat them up too much, that's what's going to make them like put less plastic in your product or they're not put the correct amount of paint because you're beating them up so bad. Like my dad taught me long ago. He's been in construction here in the, in the Bay Area, the East Bay here for over 40 years. And it's, you know, he told me, hey man, like a good business relationship are the longest long term ones. Like both parties have to make money. And that really stuck with me. And the reason that stuck with me is because prior to us being in this business, we're in the health and nutrition business and constantly, like, just beating up people on everything and it's not healthy. And you want that factory to, like, if something's, you know, you got to get a shipment out and like, you want them to, like, definitely want to bust their butt to get an order out on time because A, your friends, B, they're getting paid the fair wages, like, and you're not beating them up on stuff. So. Yeah, yeah.

You can't look at it as a zero sum game. Right. It has to be that there's. There's both. Both sides can win.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, look, we have been with a couple of our factories now for about seven years, and it's fantastic. I mean, it has challenges, don't get me wrong. I mean, sure, negotiations are always very difficult. They're very long. But, you know, we have these relationships now where they're not as long and they're not as tough. And it's like I said, one of our other factors. He just came out with his wife and daughter. We hung out with them for two days, and they were very excited about that. And once again, it's all about building relationships. I think Doug's going to talk a little bit more about how, how his relationship is with. With China, where, Where mine was kind of being on the. Being on the ground over there with the factory.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

And just to add on to some of the things that Corey's talking about from a different perspective is, you know, communication. Communication almost happens daily with your factory, 365 days a year. You know, our business is seasonal, but there's almost not a day that goes by that we're not having some sort of communication with them. And so being very clear and precise with your communication, being very persistent with some of the things that you're looking for, and also, you know, put the proper quality control measures in place. You know, we. We pay for an inspection on every shipment before it leaves to make sure that it's up to our standards. And if it's not, we have the opportunity to reject it prior to it shipping.

You pay a third party to go do that?

We do, yeah.

Yeah. That's great. I'm sure it's. Yeah. Have you always done that?

No, it's probably been about. Probably five, six years that we've had that in place. And it's the best thing we've ever done. Yeah, it holds everyone accountable.

Yeah. No, that's cool. Yeah. No, that's Great. I think that relationship and the critical part and to your point, you can get up any price point you want, but your product is going to reflect that and, you know, for sure. So that's cool.

Yep, absolutely.

No, it's great.

You know, we, we talk a lot about using the phrase or the term partnership, because it really is. So they do all the manufacturing. You know, we come to them with a new product, they do all the manufacturing, then we do all the marketing. So, you know, we explain to them like, if, if they're ever asking, like, well, hey, how do we do more business? And I said, listen, if you have to continue to improve quality control, like, like we can't have scratch decoys or you can't have this mystic stitch in a bag. I said, because a lot of times you get one opportunity for a customer to make a purchase. And fair or not fair, the waterfowl industry has tended to be pretty picky. And that is what it is. And we know what that's, you know, consumers are. If that's the way they want to judge it, we have to step up our game to make sure that we give them the best product possible. So whenever they're always pushing us more business, we say, hey, you keep the, you know, keep improving, keep catching mistakes. That way we give the end customer a great feel to making that purchase. You know, that's great advice.

I think it's cool.

Reward, quality control. That's good.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah. You guys are a great story. And you know, what's the best way for people to learn more about Tangle Free?

Yeah. So we talked about, you know, digital advertising and being able to connect with people online so you can follow us on our social media channels. It's Tangle Free Waterfowl with Facebook and Instagram or you can go to our website@tanglefree.com we. Those are the easiest ways to do it. We also are in several publications. Wildfowl, American Waterfowl, Delta Waterfowl. So you can see us there. But online is the best way to connect.

Well, you know, you guys will have to come back because we want to hear, you know, this three to five year things, how things are going. We'll hold you accountable. Thanks very much for hanging out with us today.

It's a great story, guys. We really appreciate it.

Yeah, great stuff, very much.

Yeah, it's really good.

Check them out@tanglefree.com and@tangle Free online. And keep living that charm life, folks. We'll see you next week.

Take it easy.