Small Business Tips from 5 Happiness Webmaster – SBS 46

Greetings, folks, and welcome to the small business show@businessshow.co episode number 46 for December 23rd, 2015 here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.

And I'm Shannon Jean coming to you from Concord, California. How are you, sir?

I am doing well. Getting close to all the craziness here at the end of the year, but actually we're in the thick of the craziness here at the end of the year.

Yeah, we are, we are. I think I made a comment earlier to you that, you know, everything that's rolled downhill towards me is now piling up and so I can feel the pressure in the air. It's almost like we're on a jet, you know.

The good news is what you think is the bottom is actually going to be the top very soon. As soon as the next year rolls around, you can just keep that stuff rolling down the hill.

See, that's good. I like that. I always have something to look forward to, you know. And another thing I've been looking forward to a good segue here is we're joined today from a good friend of mine and guy that I've done a lot of work with over the last few years. Bruce Lindy from 5 Happiness Webmaster. How are you, Bruce?

I'm doing great, Shannon. Dave, thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's good to have you.

Got it. Yeah, yeah. So we're, we're definitely glad to have you. We're interested in hearing about your business and, you know, sharing your stories with other small business owners. Tell me about the name. Give me some feedback on that, man.

Okay, so I kind of cut my teeth working for two very large professional services organizations as the get it Done web guy and programmer behind the scenes. And I would come in and fix the projects that were stalled or customers were feeling they hadn't been sorry. Clients were feeling that they hadn't been taken care of. So it's kind of a one man special team. And one day I'm on Clement street in San Francisco and I get a call from the CTO that I was working for. And you have to imagine a grown up Bart Simpson on steroids. This guy always wore T shirts and shorts. He's a cto. And so the phone rings, I answer and he goes, dude, Billing is freaking out. And I said, what's the problem? And he said, you sent an invoice, you've got four guys working for you, and all five of you are on the same invoice with Social Security numbers. Billing says you either have to Bill as a company or resubmit five invoices. I said, fine, I'm a company. And he goes, what's the name? I look up and see Five Happiness Chinese Restaurant. So I said, it's five Happiness Webmaster. And he goes, cool. And then I get my first check and it's made out to shopping as webmaster.

Oh.

Because I couldn't read his writing, so they reissued that. And then about two months later, he calls me and he says, funny story. The CEO and another senior staffer were in the hallway and I heard them talking and they saw one of your guys. And the senior staffer said, who's that? And the CEO said, oh, he's with Five Happy. And so I got Five Happy.com and the rest is history.

I like that. I like that. That's. That's awesome. That's a great story. And you know, it's good that you dropped the shappy part of it, I think.

Yeah, a shappy. You know, nevermind. Yeah, nevermind.

We could go. There's a whole rat hole right there that we're just.

Let's not go down there.

Yeah, we're going to keep going. Okay, so how long has 5 Happiness been around?

That was back in 99, 2000. I was actually doing it before, but on a much more amateur hour level. I had worked at Sun Microsystems for five years and I was the engineering services supervisor, meaning I was somewhere between a librarian and responsible for all the software and hardware releases. My background had been in project management and I was working with some stellar big gun programmers. And I would go to the lead UNIX guy every morning and I would literally get down on my knees in his office door and prostate myself on the floor and say, oh God of unix, teach me something. So every day he taught me one little command line thing or little programming nugget. And after I left Sun, I did a bunch of startups, but I kept programming and building websites until I got the work working for those professional services organizations. So in some form or another, I've been doing it since 96 as 5 Happy. It just formally got the name in 99ish.

Got it. And so, you know, one of the things we always talk about here is transitioning from, you know, employer to, I'm sorry, employee to employer or self employed, something like that. What was that? And it sounds like you did it over time. Was that a tough thing for you? Were you working on it? Were you consciously doing it? Or just as more work came in, did you just start?

You know, Shannon, I think that everyone breathed a sigh of relief when I left Sun. I, I can't imagine why.

I mean, I haven't heard a drip of sarcasm in your voice or anything that would make you. No, no, as we like to call it, patently unemployable.

So, yes. Yeah, I, the fact that I held a job at a real company for five years was really. I, you know, I still have a little plaque that came off my five year Sun Microsystems clock that they gave me, a little battery operated thing. But no, I have a long history of, you know, okay, so I was. I've always been a generalist. There was a huge pressure on me as a kid to be a doctor. Like, dad, I'm the eldest son who didn't go to med school. And my mom was always like, you have to pick something. And I couldn't pick just one thing because I like doing a lot of things. I enjoy the visual design. I enjoy coding. I enjoy project management. I enjoy the pitch. I enjoy closing the deal with someone which signifies that they have. That I've earned their trust. For example, when I met Shannon, I started working with him off a Craigslist ad. I had never posted. I had never responded to one before, but we ended up talking. I said I could do something for him in a certain time frame. I rocked it. He hired me to do another one. I rocked it. And we're still, we still work together, so I enjoy just about every aspect of it. I could never pick one thing. So I've become a strong generalist. There are programmers who are better, there are database guys who are better, but I like to put it all together and wear all the hats.

Yeah. And I would say that that is one of your, one of your strong points. And often it becomes an issue with folks that may be really good at one specific part of it, but can't manage the timeline or other aspects of it.

Well, the classic, I'm sorry, the classic example of that is the programmer who builds something for a client and it's hideously ugly and no one but the programmer would intuitively know how to use it. And his response is, well, it works.

Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. And I would say that another example like that is that I've seen is a programmer that does a bunch of work and it could be fantastic, but they seem to never get around to sending the bill. And I mean, I, I have had to literally beg folks to, you know, hey, get me a bill. Get me a bill. And. And to do it. And it's, you know, not their Skill set.

Well, I have somebody that owes me a bill for now 14 months. It's for about, for about eight grand.

Yep.

Okay. I have the inverse problem, which I want to tell you about because it's a very funny story about doing my business. But I, I do want to respond to the theme of a lot of your podcasts, which is, you know, small business owners, it's hard to stay on top of. I mean, it's not fun to go and do my billing and like go through the emails and you know, I have to say, okay, Bruce, if you do this, you'll get a check. You know, I have to incentify myself and make myself do it at the end of every month. So, yes, that's a, that's an interesting one. But the anecdote that I wanted to relay is that Sometime in the mid-2000s, I had a run of clients who gave me deposits for websites and then disappeared.

The clients disappeared. Wow.

Yes. Like, like. And I'm taught, okay, you want to know how much over a five year period? 20 grand.

Wow.

Two.

$5,000. I mean, $5,000 worth of deposits. And then, yeah, I'll call you next month. And I chase them for two years and they stop responding to emails. And at one point I even put on the FiveHappy.com website a big banner ad that said now offering the deposit only website. Once you give us the deposit, you can say you're working with five happy. You don't have to come up with testimonials or headshots or the frequently asked questions. You're done.

Wow, that's crazy.

But my, my sweetie and my brother who's in the business talked me out of it, but I still, but there are some of the stories of the deposit only websites are just outrageous. I mean, I really want to write a book someday about it because it's just, they're insane.

You just sounds like, I mean, it's on the, on the flip side, they get so tied up or busy or fail, you know, failure to launch basically.

And yeah, failure, I think, or, or you know, people have great intentions and very poor follow through. And sometimes as I am want to say, you can't lead the horse to the water.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. So, you know, kind of jumping back to this transition, was there a point where, you know, you realized, okay, I've created a viable, you know, a long term business. I can obviously, you know, you can survive. You make a living to where you weren't concerned about going and working for someone else again. You know, what was that? Or when do you think that might. That came about?

You know, really, it came about in the early 2000s. I, by this time I had gone through. I had kept the five happy thing going and tried a number of startups, some of which were very successful. Even though I, you know, was kind of like the Pete Best of those. Remember Pete Best, the drummer for the Beatles?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I, I kind of, you know, you know, when I left two months later, they go public, that kind of thing. I know how that is, but. But you know, I made that sacrifice so they could succeed because I was pretty selfless.

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Yeah.

It's just like Pete Bested.

Yeah, yeah. And he's happy too. You know, a friend of mine.

A friend of mine actually played a gig with him a number of years.

Ago, believe it or not. Wow. Yeah. That's also.

Dave, sometime we need to talk music.

We do. I hear we're. I hear we're both, we both suffer from that addiction as well, so.

Yes. So I definitely have gas guitar acquisition syndrome.

I know this.

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.

That's so. So anyway, Shannon, the answer is, I knew it every minute of every day that I was working for someone else. That, that was not. I couldn't do that.

Yeah, that's awesome.

You know, I didn't know and I still don't know. I can't really say this is a viable business. Sustainable, viable. I mean, it sustained me and been viable for a very long time. But there's a, there's an emotional toll that the taking your chances. I mean, you can always get fired from a job, but most of the time you don't. But you know, I've been a word of mouth business and the catch 22 for me is if I advertise, people think I'm desperate. If I, if I act like I don't care, I get more work.

So you're, you're, you know, the, you're the, the hottest girl at the dance, you know, kind of thing and not paying attention. Anybody. And that's your, that's your marketing strategy.

Yes. And knowing who to invest time and effort into making very happy.

Yeah.

So for example, when I met you, Shannon, I recognize that you are a very astute businessman with your finger and a number of successful pies. And I, you know, it wasn't a stretch for me to do a good job, but I made damn sure I did an extra good job because I wanted to build the relationship and I Consider you one of my key business marketing partners. Just, you know, networking partners. There's a woman I work with.

I've.

Only met her once or twice over the years. She's the partner of a friend of mine and she works for. She's kind of the sales. The biz dev salesperson for three companies in the Bay Area that do what I would call ginormous websites in this day and age, which are 30 to $100,000 WordPress websites. And they get customers who. Or potential clients who just don't have the budget or that's probably usually the reason. And I kind of, you know, I'm like a dog at that table.

Sure.

Waiting for the scraps to fall. And she's another one. And I keep her cc. I give her a thank you commission every time I get a payment from them. That's kind of our agreement, you know, very proactive communications and appreciation. A bottle of wine. Just being professional.

Yeah, no, that's great. And it sounds like that's really smart, actually.

I mean, in terms of, in terms of, you know, marketing to do it that way, you know, you've, you've incentivized other people to make your business succeed.

Well, I try and make, if I make them look good, then they say, are you interested in this?

Right.

And I'm always talking about the opportunity to turn interest into a client. So whenever anyone is talking to me about a website project, oh, we want this, we want this. And my response is, what I'm going to give you is the opportunity to turn interest, a nibble into a paying client. That's. That is the goal of the website. A paying client or paying customer, depending if you're selling services or products.

Sure.

So that's, that's just my approach. No, it's wacky, but.

Well, and I think it's like, you know, it's really relationship marketing, you know, it's, it's taking advantage, you know, in a good way of the, the connections that you have. And you know, I put the. I remember putting that ad up on Craigslist because I was at the time using a number of programmers and suppliers offshore as well as back in the Midwest. And I said, I have to have somebody here that I can hassle and call in the middle of the night when I have a problem. And you were the lucky one that passed.

Yeah. I was going to say it's too bad this isn't video. So the audience could see the look on my face when you said the word hassle. And I went, ain't that the truth?

Yeah, that's exactly.

No, no, no, it's. But you know what was really. I still remember one moment in particular of our initial meeting, and I met with you and your ranch foreman, I will call him Paul, at your office. And we were sitting around, and there's a coffee table, and the supports are two old Tower Macs, which was very cool. And on the whiteboard, you said, you're drawing. And you drew a picture of a homepage. And you said, you know, I said, what kind of problems are you having with these guys you've been working with that you needed to advertise on Craigslist? And you said, well, you know, and you drew this homepage, and there's a logo in the upper left. And you said, you know, I tell them to move that over here to the right, and instead they do something else somewhere on the page. And I remember looking at that and thinking about all the complex things I wanted to impress you with. All I had to do was move the logo to the right hand of the page. I think I can do that.

Well, it was the start, and I guess I can remember that conversation, too. And we talked a lot about business processes, and we could do a whole show, and we've done a little bit talk about offshore and that kind of thing and saving money. And I'm quoting with my fingers, because you give up a lot. And the big part of it is getting a programmer, project manager, slash business owner that understands the business aspects of what you're trying to achieve. Not just the, you know, the technical side of it, but the whole. The whole, you know, process, what's going on and why you're doing these little things. And that was the challenging parts that I have, other than, you know.

Well, I got to say, Shannon, that in my pantheon of clients over the years, you're. You're kind of a freak because. Just because of that exact issue, because you actually want a website or a function or a button that does exactly what you want it to do, no more, no less. And you're very conscious about what you're presenting to your audience. And I make spectacularly custom websites with that exact focus. So we kind of found each other.

Perfect for each other.

Well, okay, so. So on the flip side, tell me. You know, we all love telling stories in business is very powerful. We try to share them here as much as we can. Give us a. You know, if you can, without using names, you know, give us a flip side of a. Maybe a relationship or a site that you may have to Dig deep to find one of these. Bruce, I'm not sure.

I don't think so.

But give us a story. Didn't go that way. And how you resolved it or maybe didn't.

Here's one I'm not even going to talk about. Well, sure, okay. I'm not going to talk about her business, but she's a service provider. I knew her many, many years ago. She hired me to build a website. Three years later, I couldn't get the content out of her. I mean, she just wouldn't respond. You know, I can't build the website if you don't give me your headshot. I can't finish it if you don't give me this or the other thing. So I bundled up the files, I called it a draw, I sent them to her and I said, okay, we're done. Please let me know if you have any questions. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Nothing. Never heard from her. Five years later, I get a call. Hi, I know you're the big guy to do the website and your prices have probably gone up, but I want to do it. How much credit do I have from the old one?

This is. We're eight years into this deal.

Yeah. And I said, you have no credit left. Not only did we burn through that time and more, but that deal's been dead for five years and it's not digging up. So if you want to do a website, you're going to pay me the deposit now, which is half of the project price. And then 60 days later, whether the website is done or not, you're going to pay me the balance and we are going to call it done because I'm not going to be the gating item. And she goes, I have no problem with that. And that's exactly what happened. And then another two years went by without me being able to get. And you know the two pieces that we're missing? The only things that we're missing to complete the website? Her contact information, like name, phone number. What name? And do you want me to use your mobile or your office number? Just answer that question and give me two paragraphs of bio. That's all we needed.

Don't you hate being right?

I bundled up everything and I sent it to her and I said, okay, we're done. At which point she sued me.

Oh, what?

She sued me for twice the cost of the website in small claims court for. And literally, this is what she wrote. Because I hired him to make me a website and he didn't finish. And now I have to hire Someone else.

Wow.

And so we went into court. We went into small claims court. And this is my favorite part.

I can't wait.

The judge is reading her form that you fill out, and on the front you write, reason for. Let me see, you're suing him for this because he didn't make in. And she interrupts him and she says, is that a question? And the judge looks up and, like, does that thing where he takes his glasses off and looks at her and. And he says, I was trying to formulate a question, but if you'd like me to wait, I can. And she says, well, I just didn't know if it was a question. And at that point, I wanted to mime to the judge. Hey. But I just, you know, I said, you, Honor, she has everything I've delivered as promised. She has everything she paid for. The only two outstanding items were her contact information and her bio, which anyone can put in. I sent her this very nice letter that said, here are all your files. Here's how to install the website. Here's a backup of the database, blah, blah, blah. Judge ruled in my favor.

That's good.

But it was, you know, I'd never been sued before.

Yeah.

And, I mean, you can say to yourself, oh, the judge will recognize she's a psycho, and blah, blah, blah, but not if she necessarily.

That's right.

Exactly.

Yeah. There's no guarantee when you walk into. When you get to the courtroom, there's no guarantee. And you have to be prepared for that.

Now. Yeah.

Now, on the other hand, the. I had a. I have a friend who's a brilliant business attorney who I called and said, henry, what do I do? And he. I said, I will. I will do your website. And your sister. His sister's an author, and he runs a website for a state park up in Northern California. I said, I will do the state park website and your sister's website for free and in perpetuity in exchange for help. He goes, no problem. And thank God I had someone, you know, because, I mean, to the woman cost me time, energy, and emotion. And it was. It was rough.

Shannon said to me, when I got involved in my first lawsuit, and I've only been involved in two. I don't want to make it sound like I've. I've got a career of these things.

Yeah.

I'd heard about you, Dave.

Yeah, that's right.

Shannon said to me, be careful, man. Lawsuits are like spiders. They get into every aspect of your life. And I thought, yeah. And it's so true. Like, you Said it costs you time and emotion even if money's not even involved. Right. It's, it's still, it's gonna take a toll.

Yeah. Well, as a, as a much younger business person, I can remember my attorney, who is still my attorney and maybe this is the reason why, telling me just like you said, Dave, you know, hey, this could go this way and it could be great, but it also could go, you know, very bad. And these are the repercussions on both sides. And you know, I've always been man, I want the guy on TV that's, oh yeah, we're going to get him and get excited and go after the. But it usually does not work out that way and it's very hard to win. You can not lose like in your case, you know, which was good. But very difficult in my opinion to win a lawsuit as a small business just because of the time it takes, the money it costs.

Oh, it was, it did give me pleasure though to point out to the judge that she was using the website that she said I hadn't built for Nice.

Oh, that makes life a little easier.

That's perfect.

That's a good head.

But I mean, I mean, you know, to have to point out sanity is, you know, it was, I mean, part of the, one of the hardest things. I mean there are two hard things. It may be the same one, part A and B. Part A is when you depend on the kindness of strangers or business relationships for your business. When you're a word of mouth or. I actually do get a lot of clients who see my Little logo site by 5happy at the bottom of websites, but it's not a guarantee. Sometimes it rains and sometimes it's a desert. But the other part is, you know, I'm a neurotic Jewish guy from LA and you know, you kind of, there's a subtle hint of expecting the worst. So, you know, sometimes it does. It's hard to stay positive when you, when you need to prepare for the worst just in case.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think I picked that up. When I asked you when did you know you'd created a viable long term business? And you said, I'm still not sure, you know, so I think that sticks out. So thinking about that, you know, as business owners, you know, we know cash is king, you know, measuring our performance and that kind of thing and profits and revenue, but that's only part of the success, you know. So how do you measure success? What's the yardstick that you use personally? And for five Happy beyond the monetary rewards because, you know, things that kind of keep you going forward.

Well, so I was listening to one of your podcasts, and I heard Dave say that he likes to try and finish stuff up on Fridays so his weekends are clear. Was that. That was you, right, Dave?

Maybe I tried Friday.

A finish Friday or something, you said. Anyway, you mentioned something about that. But my thing is, I work all the time. I work seven days. I mean, yes, I know peripherally it's a weekend because I'm in a relationship and I have relationship or responsibilities, but every day I code, and every day, just about, I play tennis and walk my dog and play bass and work on stuff. Send an email out to the band members and say, okay, here's what we're working on next week. I also have a new addiction of antique clocks, so I'm learning how to work on those. And I may work for four hours and then take the dog and then practice a few tunes and then go out to the workbench and clean a clock mechanism and then come back and work some more and then run to the Safeway, and, you know, life is short. I have. Well, it sounds like you just live.

And every day is.

Well, that's just my measure of success is. Is keeping it balanced and keeping it happy and keeping everything moving down the field. I mean, Shannon, you know, I mean, the complications in my life are nothing compared to Shannon with multiple businesses and family. I don't have kids.

Right.

You know, I just have the dog.

Well, it's.

That's.

Talk about it all the time. Flexibility. Yeah. And, you know, flexibility, it doesn't give you, you know, freedom because you could be working the middle of night when a guy like me calls you and, you know, yells at you that something's not right, but you have that flexibility to work four hours, take the dog. Do you know, those kinds of things?

And that for me, when I. When I am enjoying, when I'm. When I'm able to be in so many quality moments every day and not get caught up in client crap or pressure or watching a clock or, you know, company politics, like, you know, this VP wants this, and the other VP wants that. That makes me feel good. And, of course, a healthy bank balance helps. Knowing and having a number of projects that have just been signed up rather than, okay, Friday, I will have finished with everything, and there's nothing new on the horizon. So obviously, it's like a truck with bad steering. It kind of goes this way for a while, and then it goes this way, and you Learn to ride the waves.

Yeah, that's great. I like it. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

So that's it.

That's how it works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

So, you know, we're probably, if you've listened to the show, you know, we're a big fan of mistakes here because they lead to often.

Yeah, I had heard that. I was really curious. I wanted to hear you guys talk more about those because I just don't remember ever making.

Well, this is, this is it. How do you deal with your overwhelming sense of humility?

That's right.

I, I, you know, I have a wheelbarrow near the front door that helps me get my head out to the car if I can fit it through the door. That's smart.

That's, that's. You gotta learn how to look at yourself.

Yeah, no, it's, you know, so, yeah. Mistakes. I've made a few. Yeah. No, mistakes are, I view mistakes as, you know, college, they're my education. I mean that you, you pay for your mistakes. And rather than view it as a punishment, I view it as, wow, that could have been a lot more expensive.

Yeah. So what's the mistake that you've made over the years that has taught you the most? What did you learn from. What mistake did you learn from the most?

Well, okay, so my absolute worst nightmare is getting done with something and having someone say, well, you're not done. Where's the blank? And so a major upfront pitch. Part of my pitch at all times is measure twice, cut once, and I actually probably measure five times and cut once. And I still make mistakes, but that came from. And Dave, you'll like the story I have. You're a guitar player?

I'm a drummer primarily. I can play a guitar not overly well, but. Yeah.

Well, I'm mostly, mostly a bass player and I cannot play drums at all. But I lock in with you guys real well. Oh, no, it's.

Right, it's, it's a symbiotic relationship.

Yeah.

So anyway, I had this very. I have a 1942 Martin guitar that I inherited from my dad. And the bridge down near the sound hole pulled up and needed to be re. Glued. And this was, wow, late 80s. And I had a friend who did Japanese woodwork, like, very precision, elegant, perfect little, Just what you'd expect. And I said, jamie, can you help me reglue this bridge? And he says, sure, bring it over. So he puts the guitar on his bench and I said, okay, so we're just going to glue it and clamp it right? And he goes, give me a minute. He walked around the guitar, looking at it from every possible angle for 45 minutes. And I kept saying, come on, come on. You're just going to glue it and clamp it, right? He goes, no, we're going to do it right. And end of the story, a long story, is not only did he do it right, but I've taken it into a couple of Martin shops who had no idea that the bridge had ever been re. Glued.

Wow.

You know. And that he drove me crazy when he was doing that. But I've learned, painfully, that if I don't do that, someone, if I don't articulate up front, here's what you're gonna get. Here's what you're not. If I give them any wiggle room, they'll get. They'll find a way to get through. And. And clients are like water. They will slip through any cracks. So I mean that in the nicest possible.

It's not intentional, usually.

Yeah, right. Yes. Yes.

Well, you know, I just this morning shipped off a new proposal and agreement to some clients I've been talking to. And here it is. Here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're not going to do. Please read it. And I, you know, I'm crossing my fingers. I think I've got everything, but it's still going to be a dance as we go because, you know, their interpretation of, you know, they need to provide all the content may or not mean the same. May or not have the same set of expectations that mine does. I know exactly what I mean. I need to make sure they know what I mean so we don't have a problem down the road.

Yeah. Managing expectations.

Well, that's my other line, is that I set appropriate expectations and then exceed them. And usually I do.

Like I said, most are. I think I've said it before, and I've come to think it more true over time that to be a successful business person, you kind of need to be delusional in some way because you have to convince yourself over and over and over as you experience these kinds of things that, okay, now I've learned it's not going to happen again. And hopefully you're right. Talking about giving yourself advice, if you could go back when you first started your business, what critical tidbit would you tell yourself that would have made your experience a little smoother? What would you tell yourself now?

How many listeners do you have?

All of them. Enough. A lot. Yes. Yes.

Okay. I guess it's True Confessions time. I would tell myself not to be a dick. I would tell myself to be a nicer person.

I see.

Because. Yeah, because, you know, the whole email thing, you know, and you're working fast and you're juggling five projects, and you just respond. And I take great pride in being able to cut right to the nut of exactly what we're talking about. This is the issue. But that's not how people talk. When I grew up, my. I was always like, you know, people were saying, bruce, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? So I guess I was imprecise, and I may have overcorrected, but it drives me crazy. Like, a perfect example is I have a conversation with my sweetie, and I'll say, did you change the microphone setting? And she will say, well, when Ann called this morning, and I'm like, efficiency.

Yes or no question.

Yes, sir, yes or effing, no. Did you change. Don't talk to me like that. You know, so that I think that some of that impatience or frustration. I know that some of that has leaked out over the years because I'm not always as smooth and gentle as you can be when you have the time to just right there. I softened my voice from 85% to right to 80%. And when you talk a little softer and a little slower like that to clients and you give them a little more time, it makes it nicer. And if I. If I have one regret, it's not having been better at doing that.

Well, especially with. With. With email, you know, and I mean, you really kind of have to go over the top often to have that soft voice because you're not having that conversation with them. There's no nuance. You're not face to face. And it can be, you know, taken very.

I've. I've learned to recognize when to write the email, stare at it, and go, yeah, yeah. And then delete away.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure we've all done that.

And then. And then phase two is I write the email and I show it to. To the aforementioned sweetie and say, honey, is this. Am I going to. Is this good or bad? And sometimes she'll say, oh, wait till tomorrow.

Yeah.

But, you know, it's not a major thing. I mean that. But. But that's another thing is you find that there are clients that you want to work with and clients you never want to see again.

Yep.

You just remind. In fact, that's. I. Is there time for an anecdote? I just remembered another One, Sure. So a friend, I, unbeknownst to me, someone asked a friend of mine, hey, I need an E commerce website. How much does it cost? And my friend said, call Bruce, he's the guy. It's going to be seven to $10,000. This was whenever it was five years ago. And so I didn't know that this guy knew my friend and he called me and he said, hi, need an E commerce website. I have a brick and mortar store that goes with it. How much? And I said, well, based on what you've told me, it's going to be seven to ten. And he said, I'll give you five. And I said, okay, but I really think it's going to take a certain amount of work to do that. And in my experience it's probably going to cost 7 to 10. So if your budget's 5, I'm probably not your guy. And to which he replied, I'll give you five. And I said, okay, well, I can't do it for that, so thank you and I really appreciate the opportunity. And if you get stuck, give me a call back. And so we get off the phone and I get an email from him that says, I'll give you five. And I stared at that email and I wrote back and I said, fine, when do you want to start? And I built him a website that if it was a car, essentially didn't have rear view mirrors or a radio or a heater or a windshield. It worked. And it was an E commerce website. And over the next six months, he added about $4,000 worth of extras. Hey, can we do this? Can we do that? I realized he just needed to win the negotiation. And then he came back and he did another website with me and was kind of just the same to work with. So I fired him.

Wow, that's interesting.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's been a, it's. What a long, strange trip it's been, I'll tell you.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's good that at least you were able to give it to him piecemeal and you know, come out in the, in the long run. So.

But it was really like, it's so hard. Why are, why do you keep saying that?

That's crazy. Well, and I think that being able to fire a customer, you know, I'm sure we've covered that here before. Sometimes you really do need to stress, you know, to, hey, we don't have a fit. We're not, you know, the one, you know, that's.

That is something that has come with the maturity of my business. You know, I would say only in the last five or six years have I really been able to understand that that's the smart way to do it. You know, there was a time when I thought I just had to take everything and anybody and just do it. And then that makes it more like a regular job again instead of this wonderful adventure.

Yeah, that's really good. It does. And you don't want it to be like a regular job, so you don't want to work for those people. And I've struggled with the same thing. You want to take every dollar that comes in the door. But often some of those dollars.

Yeah, I was going to say some of those dollars cost a lot more than others.

Yeah, that's for sure. Well, Bruce, I've really enjoyed talking with you today and learning more about your business. What's the best way for people to find you and get a hold of you and enjoy some witty banter?

Well, they're welcome to Visit my website@5happy.com that's the number 5 but spelled out will also work. And there's a contact form on there and just send me an email and say, hey, I need some. Some attitude. Can you provide or. Or an e commerce website.

You're gonna get a guy. That guy that comes in says, I'll give you five or it's coming up.

Or if you need a singing bass player.

There you go.

Hey, there you go.

Awesome. That's great. Well, thanks again. I've enjoyed it. I've been smiling the whole time here, which is to me is always a good sign on the interview.

I got to say one quick thing. It's the measure of success is the smile factor. When you're having fun and you're leaning into it, that's a good thing. When you feel like you have to do it, something's wrong and you got to. You got to make it right.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Sounds great. Well, thanks again and we will be following up with you again next week, folks.

Thank you for having me. I look forward to some judicious editing.

Thanks, Bruce. We will do absolutely none of it and it was awesome to have you. We will see you folks. All right next week.

Thanks again.

Take care.