Stop Micromanaging and Start Persuading – Small Business Show 202

The Small business show episode 202 for Wednesday, December 19, 2018. Greetings, folks, and welcome to the Small Business show here at BusinessShow Co, the show that is BFA Small Business here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton and out on the.

West coast, I am Shannon Jean. How are you?

I am. It's crazy, man. It's crazy like it is. Yeah, it's good though, you know, time of year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I thought things would slow down this week and eventually they will because, sure, with the holiday coming up, but that has not been the case yet. And that's like, that is not a complaint by any stretch of the imagination. That's a really good thing, you know, because there's a lot of planning happening for Q1 and actually beyond. So like, we've seen years in the past. In fact, 2017 was one of them where December was quiet. I mean, it wasn't that quiet, but relatively speaking, it was quiet. And it was like, yeah, we always.

Yeah. And I mean, I think there's lots of opportunity at the end of the year. We've, I've talked about this on the show. If you, if you don't have your fiscal year end on December 31, there's a lot of opportunity to take advantage of, especially if you're in the inventory business because there's lots of people that want to dump inventory before the end of the year.

Right.

And if you have your fiscal year at another maybe 10 to January or whatever, you can then buy those things up and take advantage of.

Do you intentionally set your fiscal years to be not in sync with the calendar year because of that?

I used to. Yeah, because of that. When we were buying massive, massive amounts of inventory. I'm not doing that anymore.

Right, right.

At least not that those kind of products and there was beneficial. And then, but over time, you know, what I found is that the year calendar wasn't as important as the earnings calendar.

Right.

For, for public companies. So we, you know, you'd get a call a few, you know, a week or so before earnings started being released by these big companies that needed to kind of shore up, maybe not have this dead inventory on their books or they wanted to add, you know, increase revenue. So they had a few million dollars worth of, you know, well, it could be more, but a lot of stuff that they wanted to generate cash flow and, and they were very like, hey, just, you know, let's do a deal. You don't have to pay us. We just need to book it into Our accounts receivable.

Yeah.

So it's kind of interesting. Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, hey, so today we, you know, we're going to talk about something interesting that near and near to both of our hearts, I think. So if. If you're a small business owner, chances are, know, Dave and I, you like things to be done a certain way, that. That maybe that's why you don't work for someone else. Right?

It is totally why I don't work for someone else.

Me too.

Well, because. And also, you know, I like to go at. At my speed. Right.

So your time. Yeah, for me, it's my time, too. If I want to push through and power through all night and maybe then have a different schedule the next day, that could be great. And. And I think it's a really powerful trait, and it pushes you to succeed because you want to do your own thing, but it also can easily kind of turn you into a mic. You know, when it comes to employees, contractors, even partners, you know, you can kind of go over the top. So today, you know, I know you wanted to talk about this topic, and I thought that's a great time. And I thought we would. We'd talk about how we can avoid being micromanagers. And I know one of your concerns is, you know, at the same time being sure things are getting done, that people are creative and embracing change and not getting stagnant.

Well, that's. So that's the thing is, I've learned, you know, as many of you know, I had an employee leave me earlier this year that surprised me. That has turned out to be a huge benefit. Not that there was anything wrong with the way you did anything, but I don't like to be a micromanager. In fact, I tell everybody that works for me when they come to work for me that I don't like to be a micromanager. But I know that I have those tendencies. And so the best thing for both of us is if you do your job, then I don't have to micromanage you, and then we're all good. Because I don't want to micromanage you. You don't want to be micromanaged. So let's avoid that together. And. And that's great. I mean, you know, because humans don't generally like that. But what. What has happened to me and I need to fix is that I avoid too much of that. And in doing so, and, you know, and with the things that have happened this year, I sort of realized it because I have been able to. You know, one of the blessings of someone leaving and you having to do their job is you get to do their job. Right, right, sure. And for someone that had been doing the same job for a decade plus, not that things had stagnated, but things didn't evolve the way that I would have evolved them. You know, knowing what I know about the industry and things and all of that, they evolved in a way that he evolved them. And it turns out it wasn't enough. And I take full blame for that because it's like, oh, you know. Right. Of course not. I didn't push him to do these things. And of course, the reason is because I edge on the side of not wanting to micromanage people, but I have to. And so for me, not like the prioritizing, not micromanaging people has led to the company not evolving at the pace that it could or should have or that I would have wanted it to. And we've fixed a lot of that now. It's actually great. But. Yeah, but going forward, you know, I really want to foster an environment of. Of what. What I'll call, you know, perpetual change. Right. Perpetual evolution.

That's right.

But. That's right, but that's a scary. Like. But how do you do that? There's two problems with that. Number one, how do you do that? How do you get involved in, like, part of that change comes from. Let me see how you do your job. Ooh, I have an idea. Like, that's real close to micromanaging. Right?

No, I think there's. And I think we're going to solve this today.

Okay. I'm just going to say the other part of that is, where was I going with this? So I don't want to micromanage people, but also, like, people employees tend to, like stability. Right. And working somewhere that's constantly changing too much. Maybe a scary thought. Right. So this is the thing that I. I really want to solve. And I know I'm not alone here, so here we go.

No, you're right. Yeah. And I think that those are. Those are really important things. And your take on it. It's interesting that. Oh, you know, I'm so concerned about being a micromanager. I error on the. On the side of letting it go too long before I get involved. Right. And I think that's a very common thing, too, and leaving things alone. And I think that one of the important parts. And I'm kind of. Pick your words apart a little bit.

Please do. No.

Is when, if you Make a comment to yourself or especially to an employee, hey, I don't want to micromanage. So, you know, something along the lines, I'm only going to get involved if things aren't working or it's not going the way I think it is. I think that kind of sets you up to your employees. Like, okay, so if the boss gets calls me, I know something's not right or whatever. So I think the way an important framework for this conversation for every employee or team member, partner, whoever it is, is that you say, look, I don't like to micromanage. So what I want to set up is defined, you know, points where we check in on projects and we both get a chance to discuss it, criticize, comment in a dem. And that's the first thing you start getting into that, adapting and accepting that we're going to change this stuff together, the time and altogether. Yeah. And you're going to be a part of it. Not just, you know, oh, I'm going to come and sit and say, no, no, no, no. It's going to be like, well, what works and what doesn't. And like, I would always ask my employees, like, well, you're going to get. Or I would tell them you're going to get bored of this over time if we do it the same way over and over. So be prepared that we're both going to be looking for ways to change things up and re. Energize ourselves and all that kind of stuff. So I think the, the way you kind of couch it and the framework you put it in from the beginning, even if it's not a new employee. But that's a great opportunity, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So, so let, let's talk about why micromanaging is a, quote, bad thing. Right. And, and I put some points down. I'm sure you have some comments or can expand on that. And my, my thing is the, the one thing that I think is the worst about it is I think it shows people that you don't have confidence in them.

Right. Yeah. It communicates a lack of trust.

Yeah. And that really trickles down and out throughout your entire organization and makes people afraid to make decisions. And I think one of the ways around that part is you can say, look, I'll back up every decision you make. I always want you to make a decision, but I do reserve the right to critique it. Just like I would like you to critique my decisions because from that critique is how you learn. Right?

Yep, of course.

And so again, it's a lot of it is just setting those baseline things. And most of it, I found, happens during casual conversations. Yeah. Not, you know, let's have a meeting and talk about this because people kind of zone out, you know, but when you're in the hallway or you're talking about a thing, hey, let's do this. And you know, those little. You drop those tidbits, I think are powerful. The second thing I think micromanaging does is it kind of creates this tunnel vision where your ideas are the only thing.

Right, right. Yeah. And you don't get the benefit of these, these other brains that you have.

Talented people that obviously they're talented if you hired them.

Right, Right.

Or, you know, whatever have brought them into your organization or partnered with them or they're contracted with them. And so if. If your idea is the only thing out there and you're managing every aspect of it, you might as well just do it yourself. Right? Yeah. And it's you, You. You'll hit a wall and it's not going to be as good for you, you know, as well. And I think, like we're talking about here, it hurts your performance, you know, you're going to. You won't be happy, and you're not going to know why. If you're micromanaging, these people are not going to be, you know, change agents and embracing all this stuff. Because I think, you know, one more thing that inhibits embracing change is that somebody's always looking over your shoulder.

Yeah, People. People need to have the, the freedom to make a mistake. I mean, that. That's the reality of it. Because you, you don't, like, you don't get progress without mistakes like that. I know that.

So, yeah, yeah, that's why we ask that question. Every guest that comes on, you know, we always say, well, what's the best mistake you've ever made? Because I want to learn from your mistake just like I learned from my own. And I've never, you know, we've never had a guest at a, you know, or 200 shows say, well, you know, I don't really know. I haven't made.

Every one of them is like, oh, yeah, I make mistakes all the time, you know, of course.

And it's that if, as, you know, as a small business owner, as an entrepreneur, it's not the mistake, it's the, it's how you recover from it.

Right.

And the ability to recover and to persevere. And we've talked about some pretty big mistakes on the show. We should do a clip, do clips and distributed show all about the mistakes. Yeah. And because everybody gets down, you know, I screwed up and I'm in this, you know, oh, man, how am I going to get through it? You will get through it. And that's what really is, makes you successful. And that micromanaging it discouraged people from making decisions. They don't want to do it because they know they're going to get called out on it. And it really holds back your people. And I think again, to go back, I think so. Those are my take on what's really bad about it. And I would be the first to admit I have this problem too, because I want, of course, things a certain way. Everything from, well, I want the logo to look like this and I want this article to say this and I want the voice. Me. The big part is how do we interact with customers and our employees. That the voice of the company, the message. I'm just a psycho about that stuff. But I've learned to, to give up a bit as I've gotten some perspective on things and I'm involved in a new company right now where I've really tried to take a backseat and agree more. Even if I was like, well, that's not how I would have done it, but that's okay. And to realize that that's okay. So I think that rather than micromanage, I think you need to delegate the work and set up clearly defined checkpoints along the way to see how things are going. And, and then you can nudge and persuade things. And it sounds bad, but it works.

That's what you're doing. Of course.

Yeah. You're persuading things to go in a particular direction if you feel the need. And I think in that case, and this is even going to sound worse, but the people that you're nudging and persuading, perhaps they don't even know that that's what you're doing. If you're good at it. If you're good at it.

Yeah. You get better at it, right? Yeah, yeah.

And, and it's not. You don't do anything bad or treating them poorly, but you know, you're like, hey, I want this person to have this idea or I want them to pick this color. I want them to do these things. So you got to kind of set it up.

I mean, it's sales, right. You're doing this all the time anyway. Yep.

It's a, it's a. Yeah, it's like your two week trial basis.

Yeah.

Which I love. You know, it's so great. It's Only two. Yeah.

Five years later.

That's right. We're still doing it. So if you set up the, you know, the, the key is to set the, the check in times up front so you're. The people are prepared so that you're going to step in and say, look, every Thursday we're going to meet or whatever it is every other Thursday and you're going to see how things are going. And, but in between the time, don't keep asking them how things are going and avoid the temptation to send an email and say, oh, I saw this partial thing and I didn't like. No, no, no, no, wait and check in with them.

I think you're to, to, to dissect a little bit. You know, you keep talking about clearly defined checkpoints. Those are for you, not for your employee. If your employees have questions or problems, they're going to be and should be free to come to you. These are, these are to restrain you. That's right.

Yeah. This, this is to fix you as the micromanager. The employees, if they need help, they're going to come to you no matter what. Right as they should. Right as they should. I'm stuck on this, on that. But you're trying. Well, I think the key here is autonomy and to let them have some sense of ownership on this project or, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, I think your point, Dave, is really important and I never really thought of it this way until you brought it up. Is that okay? So I'm not going to micromanage. I'm not going to be there. But then how do you avoid the stagnation, which is a weird word, but.

It'S the wrong word, but it's. But it gets the job done. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

They get stuck in a rut or they're afraid of change. Change. You know, we talk about it on the Small Business show all the time.

Things are. Yeah, that's.

I deleted that word. I put in my notes. Don't get comfortable because it seems such a management trick. But all of us, if we get too comfortable, right, we, we don't produce our best.

No, you gotta have a little bit of drive. You gotta have something that scares you a little bit.

Your edge, whether it's, I'm not making money, I'm not. I'm not gonna make this deadline, whatever, whatever. Find it. And you bring that up. And I never really put both of them together, but I think it's really important and it's a great topic.

My problem. And this is going to Sound terrible. But my problem is, I guess we all do this. Maybe here I am doing it, never know.

Never know. I don't know. No.

Is that I get frustrated when people don't think the way I think. Right. And you know, I get maybe frustration that's a result of it. I'm surprised. It's like, oh, how come, how did you not see that? Oh my God. Right? You know, and that's the problem is without these check ins, you've got someone that is truly doing their best.

Yes.

And in some ways that's going to be better than what your best would have been, right? Well, totally. But. Yes, but they will miss out on some of the things that, you know, they just don't see. Right. You see it differently. And you're like, like, oh my gosh, how are you still doing it this way? Like this is either inefficient or really bad. Like it drives me, I'm an efficiency maniac and it drives me crazy. Like more, far more than it should. When I'm working with someone or someone's working for me and they're doing something that clearly they do all the time. And it's like, you know, there's a way to make that happen in 1 10th the time.

Right.

Can I show you? No one wants to hear that phrase, Right? Can I show you? Yeah, like, you know, in that, in that setting. No, like, yeah, yeah, but maybe during.

The check in and.

Yeah, during the check in, sure. Yeah.

One of the, one of the things you just said, I think probably makes you a very good person to work for is that you said, you know, my way. You didn't necessarily say the best way.

Right? No, it's true.

You're not, I know, you're not sure, right?

Yeah.

It is a different way that you think, hey, what if? You know, what if? Or how about in. And maybe the way to approach those things is when you have those check ins is maybe you kind of have a list of things, possibilities or what ifs, but you really know the one you want to pick. Right. Right. You're like, well, maybe we should have it work this way, you know, and to where Again, it's a persuasion trick. But you want those people to have buy in. You don't want them to leave that meeting saying, well, I have to change this because this is the way Dave wants it done.

Right.

Maybe sometimes you have to do that. I don't want to get too soft on this thing. Sometimes you have to correct. Yes, yeah, yeah. But if, but on other things, you Know it, it's more powerful if you.

In.

This is going to sound terrible if you let them believe it's their idea.

Yes. The more powerful. Totally. No, like, yeah, you have to give them the illusion of choice.

Yes, that's brilliant. Yes, that is true. It is true. And we could, we got to have Scott Adams on this show. He could talk about persuasion, like, assault the time. Because all of us are being persuaded every day, no matter what, whether it's marketing people trying to get you to do things, whatever it is. But I think when it comes to not at least appearing to be a micromanager, you need to put some effort into your persuasion techniques to get the buy in from people and then they won't feel like they're being micromanaged. So it's, it's smart.

What you're saying is. Yeah, keep like micromanage way more, but just, just hide it better. That's really it.

Yeah. Be smart, you know, maybe smart. But think about persuasion. Yeah. And, and how you. Because, you know, you walk in the. Every day and like I can, you know, walking in the office or going through the lobby of our building and I would just look at certain things and be like, you know, I just don't really like that, you know, whatever it is.

Totally. Yes.

Yeah. But there's no way I'm going to walk in and be like, I don't like that. Somebody fix it.

Have that removed.

Yeah, that is the worst. That's like some movie charact character of a boss. Right. But I, I would certainly walk in and go to the person that's in charge of that and go, hey, what do you think about how that looks? Or what if we tried something new? Would you like to shift the lobby around? We used to have a whole wall of iPads right in the, in the thing. And when we first did it, I thought it looked fantastic. And then over time I was like, now it's kind of cheesy. It's, you know, whatever. It's getting played. Yeah, yeah, it's played. It had a lifespan. Right. And, and then, you know, we so change. So there's ways to do it. And I think persuasion and getting their buy in, you may not get what you want right away or exactly what you want, but something is going to happen.

And that's actually true. Right. Because any, not any change, most change is better than not. Right. Because it just evolves because you can realize, oh, this was a mistake, and now change it again and again and again. Yeah. Yep.

Yep.

It's easy for us to say that. I guess. I guess I. Here's my. My. My issue is I'm always putting myself in other people's shoes. Right. And I. Like, in many cases, that's a good thing. But as we talk about here on the show all the time, not everyone thinks like a business owner. Right. In fact, the people you hire, it can sort of be. It can create some friction. If you've got somebody that. That thinks like a business owner, you know.

Oh, yeah, they're not gonna work for you very long.

No, they're not.

Right. Exactly. Or you're gonna give them the. Or maybe they'll take over the business. Right. Cause you always need some sort of thing. That's great.

That's true. That's true. But, yeah, but, you know, so. And it took me. It's taking me a long time to really learn this. It took me a long time to even realize it, that, oh, I can't treat you like I would want to be treated in this scenario. Not that I want to treat people poorly. It's not a binary thing. I need to treat you the way you need to be treated in this scenario, not the way I would need to be treated in this scenario.

That's a very good distinction.

Right. That's a really hard thing, though, because I'm always feeling I have too much empathy. I said something to a friend of mine yesterday. We were talking about something else, and I said, yeah, it'd be great if I could just have a good dose of sociopathy. Right. Like, if I could get rid of all this pesky empathy, life would be so much easier, you know, in. For the most part, I don't actually believe that, but in some scenarios, it's like, no, too much empathy, and you put yourself somewhere that you shouldn't be. You know, it's. Yep, yep.

It doesn't work. I think we need to do. We could do an entire episode on not putting yourself in your other people's shoes. People work for you, especially because it's an. It's like apples and oranges. It's a different personality. It's a different worldview. And a lot of stuff that has backfired on me over the years has been because I thought they would want to hear how I would want to hear it or have a certain reaction the way I would, you know, or whatever. And. And they've. It's gone the. Often the complete opposite, where they get, like, upset with it. And I was like, wait, how could you get upset?

Because this is so great here, right?

Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna pick that, we're gonna pick that topic up again and, and, and discuss it. And, and I think, I think the underlying thing here on micromanaging those set check ins where you're kind of held back, using persuasion more to get what you want, even though it doesn't sound right, and also to make people get like, well, this is my idea. You're kind of pushing them, nudging them the way you want to go. But a lot of it is just how you communicate. And if you, the structure of your business, if you're constantly discussing change, embracing new ideas as part of your communication, and then if you reward those people that take those risks or someone who suggests something new, something different, it just reaffirms that kind of thing where people feel more comfortable making the decisions and embracing change without you being involved and you having to push it forward. And I think that's important, a really important thing, but getting people happy with that because people get complacent and it is a challenge. So you have to remind them of that all the time.

Well, and I will also say that you have to make sure you have the right people involved, because if all it takes is one person that resists change, that's very different than someone who doesn't go out and find it. If you, if you foster the environment, those people will go find it. But if you foster the environment and you have someone that resists it, that can be like poison, a cancer inside your business. Yeah, it can.

And I think that I've had to deal with that a number of times, but once to the extreme, where a particular person would not adapt with the time, you know, with that. For us, it was, it was technology, okay? And, and they refused. And I likened it to, let's say you're a cowboy and you're driving cattle and you've been on your horse for, you know, ever, and all of a sudden somebody goes, you know, what if we used a motorcycle? This would be so much more efficient and faster. And in our case, it was adapting from computers to mobile products and you know, this person for, you know, repairs and refurbishing and stuff. And this guy who's just a great guy and just a fantastic tech and I love working with him, he just dug his heels and his, well, no, we're always going to have these things to work on. And I kept telling him, and this was years before it finally happened. I said, no, you know, we're not. Look where this market's going. Look at the Volume difference between a computer and a phone or an iPad. I mean, just look and how this is going. And over time, he just, just refused to do it. And so we finally got to the point after a couple years of having these discussions where it was like, hey, if there's no more of these products to work on, you can go home.

Yeah.

And. And eventually was like, we'll call in and we'll let you know whether we have any of these products to work on. And of course, you know, he went and got another job, as he should have.

The trick is, you know, I've, I've had that too. That not a certain. Not. I don't to want to mince words, not at all with this guy that left earlier this year. But I had this with other people in the past and I don't. Well, I was going to say I haven't recognized it early enough. I'm not sure that's true. I haven't acted on it early enough or as early as I. In retrospect, I would have wanted to. You. Some people, you just can't change and then you gotta let them go. Or, you know, as you did sort of convince them, maybe it's better somewhere else. Right. But, you know, they need to find their exit somewhere or another. If I look back over the last, you know, whatever, 20 plus years that I've been doing this, there's probably, I could probably count 10 years total of time of people that I've had people too long, you know, this person maybe for an extra two years, this person for three. Like you said with your guys, like, no, as soon as you realize that this person is resisting change, you know, you just go, okay, that's it, gotta go. Bye. Yeah, yeah.

It's tough, man.

It's so easy to say when I'm not in a scenario where I have to deal with it.

Yes. Yeah. And I, I mean, I've talked to so many small business owners over the years that it, it's just a story that's repeated over and over and over. It's like, well, this person, that person. And at some point we all get to this mindset. We're like, well, how does the business work without this person? You know what?

I can speak to that now.

Yeah, it works great. Well, so I was going to say my answer to that question is very well.

Yes, very well.

Sometimes. Yeah. And I can remember having to kind of migrate out a really key person. And I was like, wow, man, this is, this, this is devastating. But over time, it. Okay, okay. And it speaks to the strength of your business and your other employees. And, and I think it's better for the other employees too, because they often see what's going on with clearer eyes than we do as business owners.

In some ways, that's certainly from. Yeah. For certain things, that is absolutely true.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And the, you know, if it's that empathy you talk about, because a lot of people, you think, oh, I gotta be nice, someone or whatever, co employees are going to see this, but a lot of the other employees, like, get rid of that person. You know, they cause all kinds of havoc or they don't want to do this or, you know, that kind of thing. And so it's, it's, it's important to listen, to not listen to your concerns about things not working right and to take the plunge because as business owners too, we get too comfortable over time.

AB so that's so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to keep yourself a little scared too.

Yeah, yeah. So I, I would love to hear you, your stories about, you know, how did you solve. Do you have, are you a micromanager? How did you solve that problem? How do you keep change in your organization going? You know, let us know. Feedbackusinessshow.co. or come visit the small business support group@businessshow.co. facebook, come talk to us.

Yeah, please do. This is. Thank you for walking me through this, Shannon. You actually fixed some things in me today, so this is good.

Fixer, man.

That's what we do. That's right.

That's it.

That's it.

Awesome.

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