The Delegation Episode – Small Business Show 23

Greetings, folks, and welcome to the Small Business show, episode number 23 for Wednesday, July 15, 2015 here in Durham, New Hampshire. As usual, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And I'm Shannon Jean, coming to you from Lafayette, California. How's it going out on the East Coast, Mr. Hamilton?

The east coast is treating me well this week. I don't know, I got some allergies this week, but otherwise, yeah, the east coast is fine. You know, it's always something, but it's.

Yeah, of course, yeah. It's a human condition. Right.

That's really what it is. It has nothing to do with my surroundings. That's right.

That's. Yeah, we all, we all have these first world problems. Yeah, that's cool. So today we're going to be talking about some delegating on the.

And with that in mind, we've got two other people that are going to do the show for us today. Oh, no, no, no.

That would be an awesome thing to do. That would be a great lead in.

That would have been great.

We could step out.

Yeah.

And we should. God, why didn't we think of that first?

Well, it's. It's because I don't know about you, but I have. I know what I'm supposed to do, to delegate. I understand the concept, but in practice I actually have trouble with it still. I don't know how you are. You might be better at it than me.

Well, I know if I'm better at it, I do it a lot. And it may just be the function because I've had a bunch of employees over the years that have moved up with me and as their responsibilities have increased, I've kind of delegated more and more and more to, number one, give them more opportunities and number two, free up my time to do. To do other things. But you're right. To your point, it is very difficult. And I can tell you in my first business, I was an absolute horrible delegator and had the whole super man complex that you could get it all done. And it was a big mistake.

Yeah. I was thinking about this especially as we decided what the concept or what the topic was going to be this week. And part of my problem is that. That, that I think I can get it all done. Part of my problem is the obvious one, that I feel like if I don't do it, it's not going to get done. Right. But. And those are both stupid things. Right. You know, that, that's.

But, but that's really the way it is. I think the second one is for Me probably hits home a little more where you kind of feel like, well, I know what needs to be done. I know how I'd like it done, and therefore, it's just easier for me to do it instead of asking somebody else and they're not going to do it exactly the way you. You expected it. Right, right. It's going to be a little, A little different. You may have the same outcome or ideally, better outcome.

Right? No, that's totally right. Yeah. So that's part of my problem is. And also a lot of times it's, well, this needs to get done right now, and I either have time to do this or I have time to train someone to do it, and then they have to go and do it. And since it's their first time doing it, they're going to need to check with me. And so it's going to take for this one time. It's going to take a lot longer. Now, of course, there's a, there's a dividend that, that pays, say, the next time this needs to be done. Right.

But there is.

Yeah, yeah, but. And I, and I'm fully aware of that. But. But it's. In a lot of cases, it's easier to just say, oh, you know what? Forget it, I'll do it. And, and that's not, that's not good because then it really doesn't, you know, those dividends don't come, don't come back. Another problem that I have, and I guess we'll talk about all of it, is I've become. And it's because, you know, I'm the one that started the business and I've been here the longest because it sort of is a function of that I'm the one with the answers. And so people will come to me and ask me a question, and if I know the answer, I give it to them.

You have to stop doing that.

That's the thing. Right? That's the thing. And I noticed it. Even yesterday, somebody asked me a question and it was obvious to me what the answer was. Actually, they posed a problem to me. It wasn't in the form of a question, but it was, hey, look, look what I noticed. I don't know what it is. And I knew immediately what this was. And this wasn't even something that's, you know, 10 years old. And this person, this person just didn't think, which means I have trained them not to think before they come and talk to me. And that's bad. Right. And so I stopped and instead of just saying oh, well, this is what it is. Don't worry about it, you know, because that's really what all it was was I just asked the question, and I'm going to make this my mantra. I asked, why do you think that is? And it's good, right? And it's like, okay, you know, I know why that is, but I need you to know why that is, and I need to train you to ask yourself that question, because otherwise this isn't going to work and it's my fault. I don't blame this person at all. Right.

Yeah. And I do the same thing, and I think I often. I will tell you what's one of the things that's probably made me a much better, I guess, delegator in my life has been my kids.

Yes. Yeah. Right, Right. I treat everybody like I treat my kids. Which. Which sounds terrible.

It does. But it actually works.

It's the right thing to do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you're trying to train your kids to think and to solve these problems for themselves. And, you know, when they're little, obviously you. You step in and do stuff all the time, but as they get older, you know, you just, oh, hey, go look that up or figure that out or what would you do? And I can. I can tell you an example that just happened to me today at. At work, where yesterday. So a couple of technicians come in and we. We got this huge shipment of iPad mini threes with the retina LCDs. And these units all have defective LCD screens. So these guys are going through the process of doing the refurbishing, and they come in and they say, hey, we're. We're putting these LCD on the new ones. Does this look gray to you? And so I look at it and I say, well, it kind of depends on what you're comparing it to. And I said, does it look great to you? And they say, yeah, it looks great. What do. Should we. Here's our choices. We can send them back to the supplier, which happens to be halfway around the world, or we can put them in, you know, and refurbish them. And. But we don't know whether a customer is going to, you know, notice, hey there, it's kind of a gray. And, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna send it back. And I said, well, what is the more expensive problem? And clearly I want them to say, well, the more expensive problem is when you have a customer that is upset and you have to send it back and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, Waiting, Waiting. So they did. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, that makes sense. We can do it. So today I hear, you know, they're running through these iPads through final testing, and I hear somebody said, man, these screens are kind of gray. And so the. I walk out there, I said, did you install those screens in there? He said, yeah. And I said, okay, so you're going to need to deal with it if you get this. These as returns. And they look at me like, well, I said, well, you know, you made the decision. It's like, well, I didn't know what the right decision was. I'm not saying it's wrong, but you'll need to document it. And if you start hearing customers come, you know, hey, we don't like this, or these are coming back. I mean, it's very subjective.

Sure.

So, you know, referring back to the conversation I just had with them, 20, even just 24, less than 24 hours. You know, these guys are kind of looking to me like, well, you said we could. I said, that's correct. You made the decision. You're going to have to deal with the customer. So if you guys are confident that it's okay, I back you up. If you're not and you did it anyway because it was just less headaches, then that's a problem. So we'll have to see how it goes. And I'll let you know in a future episode.

Yeah.

You know, but. But at least they make a decision. And it's. It's just like with your going back to the kid thing, I want them to make a decision. Even if it's the wrong one.

Correct.

And so delegating, you know, in the beginning, if you're. If you're just getting started out, you can do it all. You're doing it all. Right.

You don't often. It's. It's not a choice.

Yeah. You were the guy, you know, or the woman, whatever it is. And. And we're just gonna say right here, when I say guys, I mean everybody.

Yeah.

And. And so, you know, it's all. It's all encompassing in my house. Hey, guys, get. You know, get up.

So we're the same way here in New England. It's. And it definitely is a regional thing. Right. But, yeah, guys is a. It's like. It's like when I lived in Texas, it was y', all, you know.

Yeah. It's all inclusive. It's everyone. That's right. You know. Yeah. So, you know, in the beginning, I think, and I read a book, I mentioned here a Few times. We'll talk about it again at the end here. But one of the most important things I think you can do to help you with your delegating, either now or in the future if you're growing your business, is create an org chart, an organizational chart. And it doesn't have to be anything sophisticated. You can draw it with a crayon, but you should identify all the stuff. You know, you can call them departments, you can call them tasks, duties, whatever it is. And create an org chart. Put your name at the top, draw some lines and put some boxes below. And if you're just getting started, your name will be in every single box. Yeah. But as your business grows, your goal should be to slowly. And it may take, you know, it may be quick or it, you know, may take a long time, but your job should be to slowly replace your name in those boxes. And when we, when I do it, you mean, I even put, you know, what they're, what they do. Kind of like a snapshot of a job description. Like. So if you're starting to, you know, you're starting a business and you, you're doing all this administrative stuff, well, you're going to need an admin. Okay, so that's a box. And what is that admin going to do? Just real quick little things. And I think it helps to focus you on. Number one, hey, I could make it to this point where I have these people working for me and doing this. And number two, and maybe most important, you realize that you do need someone to do those things for you because in many cases are going to be better if you're a tech guy like you and I are. Well, I'm not that great actually. I, I'm lousy at, you know, the administrative part of things, but I had to do it at the beginning. But eventually you get to the point where like, ah, we, I'm making enough revenue, I, I found this person, I can plug them into that box. And that really helped me a lot, tremendously.

That's brilliant, man. And I, I've, I've never, I've never done that. Right. I, I know, I know it needs to be done and I do have people that work for me. You know, it's, it's so, it's not an utter failure. Right? But.

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. No, no, no, you're. Well, all of us.

Yeah.

Can learn from this because I can talk about it a lot, but it's, it's that practice what you're preaching. Yes, I still delegate more.

No, I, but this, this concept of the org chart, it makes perfect sense if you know that you can start it if you give yourself permission, in a sense, to start it before the positions can even be filled. Right. I mean, it's one thing to say we have the money, we need to hire. What's this? What are we going to hire? Well, then it. Then it starts to make sense. But to do it before you even get to that point actually makes the most sense. And regardless, you know, let's say you've got whatever, 10 employees will still do it because you're going to notice. Well, wait a minute. What if we take these tasks from these three employees and bucket them together and call it another, you know, role? And. And now we can free these people up to do these other things. Oh, yeah, that's brilliant.

That's right. And. And what it does also is in. In it gives you kind of, I mean, maybe permission's not the right word, but kind of permission to delegate stuff to those people.

Yeah.

Because it's clearly defined. Hey, this is your role. So when, when this type of issue comes up and you come to me and say, hey, should I use these retina LCD screens? Well, you're the, the tech supervisor, and if I look at that chart, you're in charge of making those decisions. You don't need to bring that. You don't need to bring it to me. I can certainly give you my opinion. But ultimately, you need to make a decision. And I will. I will, you know, back you up.

I will back you up. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. And I think that's really important. You know, I have the exact same thing, Dave, where, you know, it's like, well, I'll just do it. Only take me five minutes and that kind of thing. But you do want to, you know, as soon as you possibly can, you want to try to flip it to somebody, even if they, you know, screw it all up. And then you. When I delegate, I said, hey, I'm not going to, you know, I'll support you in whatever you do, but I do reserve the right to come back around and critique the way you did it.

Of course. Right.

To try to help you and to try to fit into kind of the culture we have here, or, you know, the policies, you know, that kind of thing. But you always want to support them in front of the customer. Oh, always.

Always, always, always. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's important. So anyway, the org chart ideas has helped me a lot. I can't take credit for it. I wish I could, but it's, you know, spelled out really clearly in a book called the E. Myth and, and I think now it's called the E. Myth Revisited. And you can get on Amazon or any other bookstore, you can download it and it'll help you tremendously. And their big focus and delegation is right in it is you need to be able to get out of your business to focus on your business.

Yeah.

And you know, we've talked about this before. If you're in the day to day just jamming and a lot of times you're going to be. But you need to get to a point where you can set aside. And I can remember when we were starting businesses out where your time you set aside could be at midnight because you've done all this work. But you need to get to the point where you can stop and plan, create an org chart, think about all this stuff. And if you have employees, you're not going to get there unless you delegate to them.

Yeah, no, you have to delegate to them. Yeah. I found, you know, when I. One of the first businesses I had where I had other people working for me was when we had the consulting business. The computer consulting business was called Computer Nerds down in Austin. And one of my biggest problems was. This is going to sound egotistical, but it just was true. I was the best tech we had.

Sure.

And. And the customers knew it too. Right. So I hired people and we.

And they all want you.

They all wanted me. And it was, you know, and they knew it. Right. And so I mean some. And then we had new clients and so they didn't know that they wanted me. They, they were okay with, you know, these other people that they knew. And actually it's not. I was one at, at the, at the end I was one of the best techs we had because we had a couple other really good people that came in and, and sort of did. Had their own style and all of that. But I knew I was the best tech and it was like, well, I can't clone myself. This is the wrong business for me to be in because I've tried to train these people, right. And I know what they're doing wrong and I tell them what they're doing wrong. But it just, you know, there's some things you can train and some things you can't. And it's just like, this isn't going to work. And so when I had the opportunity to start Mac Observer, I thought, well, this is great because this was not something I was skilled in. Right. And especially the sales side of it. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm comfortable talking to people. I'm sort of a natural born salesperson. But I'm, but I'm also, I have very little patience for, for people when they're idiots. So if somebody, if I've laid out logically why this makes perfect sense and you should buy this and you don't buy this, I'm going to tell you you're a moron. That's not really the right way to handle that.

Okay? Right.

And I know that. So I know that there it was easy for me to hire sales reps because they're better at this than I am, because I'm utterly terrible at this. Because I'm going to tell you you're a moron. And that's just not good. People tend not to spend money with you when you do that. So, you know, so that part of it worked. It was sort of this forced delegation, like, well, you're, I can't do this job, you're better. And it was also, the sales thing was an easy one to delegate out because I realized very quickly I was doing it and I was doing fine with it. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of, you know, using hyperbole here. I wasn't harmful at it. But, but I also realized that, you know, sales is a, a process and a, and a job that is rooted in failure. You know, if you make 20 phone calls and you get one. Yes. Which means you got 19 no's, that's a successful day. Right. And, and the problem, and that's great as long as sales is the only thing you're doing. But if you have other things to do like you know, programming and, and you know, managing the website and maybe running a business. Yeah. There's things I can do during the day that are guaranteed successes. Now they, they don't bring money in. But, but you know, I finished coding something and I see it work and it's like, awesome. That's great. That's a one for one thing. I coded one thing and I got one feature right. This is awesome. And so I realized that I had to hire someone to do the sales because I wasn't doing the sales. It was like, well, you know, I want my data feel successful. And so I don't want 19 nos when I have all these other things that need to be done anyway. And so that's, that's why it was easy to hire salespeople for me.

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And, yeah, you know, I had a, you know, similar instance, and, you know, we were running this, you know, crazy fast growing, you know, overnight repair business for, you know, Mac laptops. And it was. You're building all kinds of relationships. And I was sending out newsletters, and we had all, you know, it was a. It was moving quick. And we had very similar things where the customer always wanted to talk to me. You know, I was kind of the mouthpiece of the place, and we were marketing out. And, you know, I'll never forget, we. You get these calls in, people say, hi, I need to talk to Shannon. You know, da, da, da, da. And they say, okay, we're going to get your name and this. And, you know, you have to. If it was a regular customer, you want to try to offshoot them to, you know, we call them repair counselors because it can be, you know, it's traumatic when this stuff goes wrong in your Mac, and all of a sudden you're without it, but you. I started just saying, hey, it's great, and I would take a call real quick. I say, hey, let me. Let you talk to Clint or whoever, you know, because they are really much better at it.

Yeah. Uh. Oh, Shannon, did I lose you? We lost you, but I think you're back. Is that right, Shannon?

I am back. I did not step away, but the ISP gods were not shining on us today.

We delegated our bandwidth to the wrong people, clearly. So you were saying that, you know, somebody would call and you'd say, talk to Clint. He's better at this. That's.

Yeah. So, you know. Yeah, right. And I just started using that concept, you know, that, hey, I'm not the tech anymore. And, you know, I'm. I don't. At some point, they stop letting me touch this stuff, right? Because they know they're better at it. Then, you know, you're trying to hire better people. So it's very similar to your salesperson's, you know, comment. And, you know, I'll never forget, we had a guy call in, and he was just adamant. I got to talk to Shannon. I need help. Da, da, da, da. And he's like, you know, and I just couldn't take the call. And so I heard the customer service folks kind of wrangling with this guy. And so finally, you know, he put him on speakerphone. He says, look, I need to talk Shannon. I've known her for years. He or she is the only one that can help me. And so clearly, I said, you can. You can handle it from here.

You got this.

Yeah, yeah, you got that. So. But you know, you, you do have to make that transition, especially if you're in any kind of consulting or, but even anything if you're the guy that does the bids and goes out and makes that first connection and then you, you turn everything over to your crew. Well, that can get kind of bumpy sometimes for.

Totally.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, we've tried that here because we've had people who are good salespeople for, for selling ads, but not really. It's just not in their DNA to be focused on the, the serving of those ads. Right. That you know what it takes. And so we've done that at times where we've had somebody that just does that and then somebody that takes over the kind of, the follow up and, and actually delivering on whatever it was the customer bought. And it can be dicey because there's a relationship that's developed there. Yeah, it's tough.

Yeah, it is. And often a customer can feel like a bait and switch type thing and you have to be delegate. But hey, before we get on, I want to talk about the opposite of delegating too and how damaging that can be. But I have a couple more points I want to make really quick. You know, the thing about delegating, I think to understand with your employees is most people, and you can look up studies and everything, you know, you talk about being happy at work and happy in your position, in your career, but one of the things that typically everyone always says is they want more responsibility and they want more autonomy. So by delegating things to them, not only are you ultimately freeing up your time to manage your business, but it's part of the giving them kind of a career path. I mean, we did a whole show on different ways to create a career path for your employees, even within a small business. But, and this is fundamentally really one of them, there's no way that someone is going to stay with you for decades if all you have them doing the same thing over and over again with no chance to do anything else. Yep. It's just not just not going to happen for the most, for the most part. And you probably don't want that employee anyway. Right, right. And so the thing with delegating is, you know, start, I always say start small. You know, things that are just very obvious and almost like making them like goals where you know, they, they should be measurable, but they also should be achievable. So, you know, don't give them something that, you know, they're just going to fall apart on the first time. Maybe you got to break it down into little pieces and, and then I think you have to check in with them often. Hey, how's it going? Is that, is it working the way I was doing it? Is that working for you? Or did you come up with a different way to do it and then make adjustments? So, you know, if maybe they can't handle all of it, but they can maybe, you know, take half of it from you at that at some point, and then you can step back in and help them because you don't want them to crash and burn. And then check with them three months later and say, hey, I thought, I thought you were doing this.

Yeah, yeah. You can't. Right. You can't just hand, hand your business to someone or even a portion of your business and not be aware of what they're doing. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And then as they, as they achieve those things and it'll become routine to them and this will be, oh, this is now part of my job description. And maybe you already had it in that org chart box, but they may not even have known it, you know, and you'll, you kind of add it to the job description and then once they're comfortable doing it, then you can kind of drop another one on them, hey, look how good you're doing at this. And, and maybe, you know, you should do this. And I mean, I walk around my building telling people, man, I'm so happy that you're doing that because you do such a better job than I do. You know, you're way better at running those reports and doing all these imports and exports than I possibly could be. And, you know, I can tell they, they people want to hear it. They want that responsibility.

Yep, yep, yep.

So the opposite, I, I think of, you know, delegating and how empowering it is and how constructive it is, is I think it's very destructive to be a micromanager.

Oh, totally.

And yeah, and I think it's worth a few minutes here talking about that because when you see businesses and everybody has probably gone into a business, anything, restaurant or store, anything where there's one person that is just omnipotent and calling all the shots and questioning everything, and they typically do it in front of the customers without regard for their employees, you know, state of mind or, you know, their, well being there, and I think it is just one of the worst things you can do for your business, for yourself and for your employees.

Yeah.

And I think it's true.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's. I think it's. And I don't have, you know, great trick to get away from it, but I think you have to look at yourself. You know, there's an old phrase and I've said it. I don't know if I've said it here or not, but it's like, you know, when you want to give praise, you look out the window. And when you want to criticize, you look in the mirror. And I think that's really true with a business is because you want to ask yourself, always ask yourself first, what am I doing that can make this better? And you know, if maybe, maybe really crazy micromanagers can't recognize it, I don't know. But you want to let them make decisions, you want to let them fail, you want to back them up. You never want to throw them under the bus. It's always better for the, for, you know, me to step in if there's some real screw up that we made. I will always step in and talk to the customer. Just go, you know, I take total responsibility. It's my fault. I didn't set the procedures in place that would have kept this from happening. And you know, you, you'll gain so much more respect from your, your employees that, you know, you want these people to work for you out of that respect and, and that, you know, they want to please you because you've given something to them. Not just a paycheck, but.

Yeah, right. Yeah, you.

Right.

Yep. Yeah. You show them that you trust them and that you're gonna back them up no matter what, even. And when they screw up.

Yeah, yeah. And, and that will just pay dividends like, you know, you, you don't believe. You. You can't imagine. And I've just seen it over and over and over again. And you know, I think the, the real role as the business owner, you know, you should set the tone. And you know, Dave, we have very similar, I think, business philosophies about why we do things and trying to make an environment that works really great for everybody and empowering everybody, and that's awesome. And I love that. And then, you know, we set policies and boundaries that kind of shelter that, that culture and that tone, and then just you let people run with it. And surprisingly enough, most people will just do kick ass for you. Yeah, really?

Well, yeah, they know it's true. Most people will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right. You have to let people make mistakes and then you've gotta, you've got to back them up when they do and also teach them, you know, make sure they understand the mistake they made. Right.

I mean, yeah, yeah, of course.

Of course.

The critique. I always mentioned that, hey, I'm not going to doubt, you know, or I'm not going to question it, but we're not. If I think it could have been handled a different way, I certainly reserve the right to sit down and analyze it together. Just like I want them to analyze decisions I make and tell me, oh, wow, man, this really threw glue in the machine here when you decided to do this, you know, you want them to question you and say, well, why did you do that? And then you can throw it out there and you want that. You want that give and take.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, like you did with you guys with the gray screens, I mean, you know, you'll. You'll find out, and we will find out next time. They will be well suited to make that decision.

Yeah. Because I know what I would have done.

Yes.

I just really want, you know, they need to do it because, you know, I want to be here doing this show, and I can't be there to help them make those decisions. And the business can't come to a screeching halt when you are not there.

Yeah.

If you know the, even if you know the answer, like you said, what happens if you're not around and everything just stops? That's a nightmare.

Well, and that, you know, what you doing the show, one of the best ways I've found to sort of temper my urge and, and perhaps, you know, default reaction to micromanage is to find something else to do. And it may be something at. At the business. Right. At the same business. Or it might be a different, you know, venture or something to distract me so that I know what. What needs to be done here. On paper, it's all covered. And, and in reality, it's all covered. Right. You know, I've got the right people and all this stuff, so let me get the heck out of your way so that you can do the things that you're supposed to do here. And in fact, with my sales team, this is. This happens all the time. This is not just, you know, a funny thing to say when I am out of the office. They sell more. They sell more.

Awesome.

Yeah, it's great. And you know, the thing is we're not actually in an office. Right. I mean, we're, you know, I'm at my desk in, in New Hampshire, Jeff's at his desk in, in Texas, and John's here. Right. I mean, everybody's in different places, so it's not like I'm literally over their shoulder all day. I don't know what it is. I wish I could put my finger on, like, what is having me here do to. To slow this process down. But. But it's something. There's definitely something.

It. Maybe it. Maybe it's when you're gone, and then they know you're gonna even this subconsciously, that when you come back, they want to have good results for you.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, so maybe it is. And, you know, I don't know, but I think that the key thing that you're talking about is, like, giving up control. And. And I think that we could do a whole show, and we should about that, because that is very difficult. And also something you touched on is kind of reinventing yourself, because as you delegate, it forces you to think about, okay, now I've got an extra hour in my day. What should I do? And sometimes that can be kind of scary.

Yeah, it's. It is scary. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I had a partner. I had a partnership fall apart because of that, because a guy eventually worked his way out of a, you know, a position because he didn't need to do it anymore. He was too highly compensated to be doing what he was doing. But he had a hell of a time reinventing what he could do and eventually left because he's like, why? I don't. I don't have anything to do anymore. Well, no, now you have all this opportunity. Do whatever you want.

You can do whatever you want. That's right.

Yeah. But that. That where you and I look at that and go, man, that's great.

Some people, look, you've succeeded in. I mean, that's success right there. Yep.

Yeah, that's it. You've moved. You are a business owner because now you've got some time, and now you can re. You know, put that time either back into your business on a different level or come up with something else. So, you know. Yeah, but it take. It's. It's taken differently by. By different folks.

Yeah, so. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. So anyway, that. That I did want to mention the book again. E. Myth you can go to emyth.com they have some online stuff there. You can pick up a copy. Well worth your time. It's a quick read. And you can also, you know, for, you know, for templates about the org chart, you know, which I just plant my flag in the ground on that one. You can Just search org charts. You know, on google score.org, which is a society of retired executives, they have a lot of that stuff, too. So I highly encourage you to go out and get yourself an org chart. When you get it and you want to share it, send it to us. And, you know, we'd love to hear it, love to look at it, love to hear what's worked for you and, you know, definitely want to get some feedback. Where do they. How do they contact us? Dave?

So I'm glad you asked, man, because we finally found the website that we're going to use. And DBA Podcast will exist because as those of you who have bought domains. No, we own it. And there's no reason to, you know, to decommission it. But the website that better, or the URL that better represents what we do is businessshow Co. It even rolls off the tongue. You're never going to forget it. BusinessShow co. So that means feedback at BusinessShow co will work.

And that's.

That's the best place to email us. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah, we'd love to hear from you. And, Dave, thanks for hanging out this afternoon.

This was a good one.

Yeah, I liked it.

Me too. Yeah, I'm. I'm actually now inspired. I'm gonna go make org. Org charts. Well, seriously, it's a good idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It works, man. It really works.

I believe it. Yep. I totally believe. Yep. All right, thanks, folks. Thanks, Shannon. We will see you next week. We've got a fun interview coming up, so.

Yeah, we do. Yeah, you don't want to miss it. And take care, everybody.