Two Buck Chuck and ChatGPT

Business Brain, the Entrepreneurs podcast, episode 411 for Wednesday, December 21, 2022. Greetings, folks and welcome to Business Brain here at BusinessBrain Show. We are the show where we use our business brains every, every week, every day. We talk about how we use them to better our businesses, better our lives, all those things. We're also really happy to have Shopify on board as a sponsor. Visit shopify.comsbs that's where you're gonna go to get your 14 day trial and full access to Shopify's entire suite of features. We'll talk more in depth about that in a little bit. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And here in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. How you doing, man?

I'm good. I always say, for now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, like later in the episode, I'm going to be somewhere else. I'm not.

It's a moving target.

Yeah. I'm not, I'm not. I have no plans to. I don't. I can't predict the future. But I can tell you what my plan.

Yes. I heard a new phrase a couple days ago that I thought it's pretty interesting because we always embrace change on this show and that phrase was everything is moving and. Or. Yeah, everything is moving and movement is everything.

Ah, yeah, I like that. Sure.

It's just constantly moving and doing this kind of thing.

So it's one of those sort of phrases that's self evident about itself.

Yes. There you go.

There you go. Hey, yeah. Fred Franzia is. Has. There's an interesting story about this guy. You might not know his name, folks, but you might know about Two Buck Chuck. If you've ever been to Trader Joe's, because that's the brand that. Or the brand name that we, the public, gave to their inexpensive wine. That's pretty good. At least to my very uncultured taste buds. And I don't live in.

Sold over. Yeah. Sold over a billion bottles.

Yeah. Yeah.

With a B.

With a B. I know, it's crazy.

Yes.

But it's a fascinating story about how he created this brand and this business. Really. I mean, you know, I, I think they say he makes over 100 million bucks a year, which I certainly, I believe.

Yeah.

They started.

I love about this guy.

Yeah.

Is I, I feel, you know, I've always felt like an outsider. It's one of the reasons I started my first business and this kind of stuff. And this guy is like the consummate outsider. You know, he started that. He thought the wine industry was, you know, very pretentious and all this kind of stuff. A lot of it was just BS and marketing. And so he came into it with a different. A different outlook, to say the least.

That's right. Yeah, exactly. Because. Yeah, he came from a wine family. I think his grandfather started Franzia Wine, and you can find their boxes of wine around. Right? You can, but it's not theirs anymore. I think back in the early 70s, Fred's father. So the middle generation there between the grandfather and the two Buck Chuck guy, sold that business to actually. To the Coca Cola Company. Yeah. And. And there was an interesting little thing there that happened because he was pissed that he lost control of his family's name, which, you know, I mean, when you sell the business, if the business has your name, that's what's gonna happen. That'd be like me being pissed that I no longer have control of the brand name, the Mac Observer. Right. Which, by the way, I can finally share that it sold again very recently.

That's a. That's fascinating.

I am happy. I am so happy it sold again. The guy who bought it from us. Things outside of the business, sort of throughout the year, became very distracting for him, and I'll leave it at that. But when he called me and told me he didn't have the time to run the business anymore or to grow the business the way he wanted to, he didn't say he didn't have time to run it, but he didn't, you know, he didn't have time to really spend on it the way he wanted to. I thought, oh, no. Like, okay, the last thing I want to hear about is this business dying, you know, And. And then.

And then he told your transaction was done by that?

Oh, yeah, yeah. I was out of it. This is just an emotional attachment to that.

Wasn't making payments or anything like that.

It was all paid up front. Everything was. Was good. Yeah, that part was fine. I just didn't want to see it close down, you know, And. And he told me that, you know, serendipity struck. This guy Radu Tir Sina, who runs a site called Windows Report, had come to me. I think the first time I Met him was 11 years ago. And he wanted to write for us at the Mac observer that for whatever reason, that didn't work out. I can't even remember why that didn't happen, because that. That easily could have. And then about five years later, he started and three times since had come to me about buying the site. He couldn't we couldn't make the deal. He politely says in public that. That he didn't have the money to do it, which may or may not be true. I think I also wasn't in a mindset of. Of selling the business. I wasn't ready. Yeah, exactly. It didn't even make sense to me that this could be possible. But he did come around again and obviously came to the, you know, the. The person that bought it from us and, and wound up striking a deal and it's in great hands now, so I'm really stoked. So that was a detour, but I figured it was a good one to have so. Because I know, I know people are going to ask me about it. Like literally the day that we're recording this is the day the press release came out. So I'm actually able to talk about this now, which I'm. I'm glad. So. And I'm really happy about it. The back to Fred Franzia. So I'm. I'm. He. It says he. His dad started a new winery called Bronco Wine and it started as a wholesaler, but he wanted to sell his own brands, cheap wine to higher class folks. Right. Cheap wine to yuppies was the whole idea with this Bronco Wine Company. But there was a challenge. The Central Valley, I guess, in California.

Yeah. So Central Valley is the breadbasket of California. Most vegetables and fruits. I mean, it produces just a massive amount of food for the whole country here in California. And the soil is really, really good. And that sounds great, but for wine it's not so great.

You kind of want it to be dry, right?

Yeah, dry, rocky. You know, the vines are a little more stressed out. They produce better fruit. And as you can imagine, it's much more expensive to grow wine in Napa Valley than it is down in the Central Valley in Fresno and Turlock and these areas that are inland. But the problem is also it gets super hot down in the Central Valley, so it doesn't produce as well. It's subjective, of course. Produce the type. Type of grapes that the Napa Valley areas do with their kind of more mild climate, if you will.

Got it.

But there's a way around that.

There was. Well, yeah, in 1986, they made a rule that. That said you couldn't do what they wound up doing. But. Or they made it made a rule that pre. That new businesses couldn't do what they were about to do. But since their business, they'd started it in like 74 after they sold the other one, they were Fine. A wine could say that it was cellared and bottled in Napa Valley. Even if the, the contents of those bottles were, you know, the far less superior Central Valley wine or from anywhere. Right.

Yes, because it was in, I mean it was true. You know, they probably moved it to Napa Valley, put it in the, you know, the cellar, the warehouse, if you will. And the bottling plant was in. Was there.

Yeah.

So. But it's an interesting way to present it. It's all marketing, right?

It's all marketing. Right. And, and so he, he bought a bunch of different. He, he did this and started making money. Bought a couple of different vineyards, I guess, and, or a different couple of different brands and, and wound up buying. Let's see, I'm trying to make sure I get this right. He encountered a guy named Charles Shaw, which is where the two Buck Chuck name comes from. And he, he was a West Point grad, Stanford mba, and was obsessed with winemaking after like some encounter in Paris or whatever. Probably involves a woman or something. Right. Because that's how those things go, you know. And, and he got obsessed and he did this. But he really wanted like this, this wine thing, right? Like he, he wanted this, this classic California wine. And.

Yeah, he's, he's selling a bottle of wine for, you know, 50 bucks or something back, back in, you know, in the, think about it. Yeah, early 80s, it was, it was pretty expensive.

But he created this, this high brand, you know, high dollar brand of wine, this Charles Shaw did. And, and he was doing a lot of money, like he was doing a lot of business. I think there was said in the mid-80s he was doing like 2 million a year. But there was a crop accident and a divorce and then he went bankrupt. $3 million in debt by 1992. And so Fred Franzia acquired the Charles Shaw Winery out of bankruptcy a few years later. He paid $27,000 for it. And, and, and he did nothing with it. He sat on it for 10 years. And, and, but this is like, this is where opportunity knocks, right? Like he just, he thought okay, 27 grand. Like okay, great. Like that's, you know, short money even then. It's shorter money now, but you know, even then he could afford it. He grabbed it. There was another opportunity happened. An oversupply of grapes started building up. Non industry folks got into the wine game and the, the vineyard acreage jumped 24% in the, in that 10 year period that he owned Charles Shaw. And so he, as they describe it, he shorted the market by building an almost 100,000 square foot bottling and just waited for prices to crash. So he didn't have the wine or even enough grapes to, you know, to make the wine. But he bought a bottling plant when no one wanted to buy one or built one when no one wanted to do that because the industry was kind of falling in the wrong direction. He stopped producing his wine. Fred Franzia did, letting all of his storage tanks, like 450 of them sit idle. And then the wine market blew up. Oversupplied. Wineries were forced to offload their inventory. And he bought quality wine for 50 cent on the gallon, not versus a dollar a gallon versus the previous market rate of $10 a gallon. And now he had this bottling facility ready to roll, producing out of the gate. It could produce 18 million cases a year, which for perspective, is twice the entire capacity of the Napa region. And so it was making wine 24 7. And he decided to bring that Charles Shaw brand that he'd bought for 27k out of retirement and put a logo on it and was like, okay, now I just need to find a place to sell it. And he found Trader Joe's and that's where it was brilliant. Yeah. So he, he was able to supply cheap wine to Trader Joe's. Good wine, like I said. I like that, that Charles Shaw wine that you can get at Trader Joe's now. I mean, it's a red blend or whatever. I think a white blend too, or whatever. Yeah. And it's brilliant.

It's a great story. I love, again, I love that he's outsider that comes in and a disruptor. Right. And you know, they've sold over a billion, not a billion dollars, a billion bottles.

Yeah.

Of, you know, of this.

And it's not two bucks anymore. It's now six bucks. But it's still. It is, it's. Yeah. I bought a bottle last week, it was 5.99.

That's funny.

I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's wild. And what I, what I love too is some of the ways that he was able to, you know, take advantage of things like, you know, the dating. So, okay, I can call this a Napa wine even though, you know, the grapes are coming from the Central Valley. And I love that, you know, he, he's, he's like apple. I'm going to control all aspects of it. I'm going to control the grapes. I'm going to, I'm going to bottle it, I'm going to distribute it. I'm going to, you know, handle the trucking. And also, things are that maybe you wouldn't even think about it. They use a thinner glass for the bottles so they can get more bottles on a truck. So they ship, you know, 1400 or so bottles versus 1200 to help get the shipping costs down. So I love it. Yeah, I love this whole story. And it's amazing if, you know, and. And it's just thinking about an industry like what you could do for your business to shake things up and how could you do things, you know, that just go run counter to this concept, like on the. The wine thing, you know, forever. It was always pretentious, and we've got to have this very high end.

That's it. Finding that pretentious business and coming in with an unpretentious mindset. Like, to me, that's the part that, I mean, I like a lot of aspects of this. Don't get me wrong, that's the one that. That really enamored me to this, was this is a pretentious business and there's high margins. Right. You know, and I get it. That land is. Is not inexpensive. And, you know, all of that stuff. There are high, high cost, but there are high margins in the wine business. Right. You know, the people. People can sell a couple hundred cases a year and feed their families. Like, that's definitely high margin. It's, you know, it's not. Not usually how things work. And he saw that and said, well, wait a minute. If I. I can. I can, like, come in and do the process the right way and set up the. The logistics of the business in a way that can scale and I can take some high margins, but also sell it for way less than everybody else's and still get some high margins. Because the public idea is that wine is more expensive than it should be.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Not. Not that people think it's more expensive than it should be, but people are used to the prices where wine is. Even though it shouldn't be that high, people are okay with it. So if you cut it in half, like. Or less, it's like, sure, great.

Yeah.

Yep.

And, you know, he. He saw that all these, you know, a lot of. Lot of wealthy entrepreneurs or people like he. He called them Stanford graduates that were coming in and buying wineries and didn't know what they were doing. It reminds me, you know, a couple years ago, we had. Or a few years ago, Tony Biaggi on the show, and we'll link it in the notes. He's a winemaker and that is his specialty. He would, you know, I met him at a, at a dinner one time or one evening and then asked him to come on the show. And he said almost the exact same thing. He's like, there's a lot of wealthy at this time. It was a lot of tech guys that had a ton of money, thought they could come in and use their cash and build a great winery. He's like, well, yeah, you can build a beautiful building and do all this kind of stuff and they're good at the marketing. But creating a wine that tastes great is a different story altogether. And so his whole business was, he would get hired, he'd go in, consult, find a winemaker, work with that winemaker for a couple of years to really turn around these wineries. It's a fascinating story. I'd recommend you go listen to it at BusinessBrain show. You'll find the link.

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And it's conversational, Right. To me, that was the. Yeah, big deal when I started using it.

Yeah. Previous incarnations have been as well. You just couldn't. You couldn't. You. And I couldn't use them. We had to apply for like, a permit and a login and all that stuff. And it was only for certain people. And now they. They're running a huge, you know, server farm to do this. I think it costs them like 2 cents a query, which I know it doesn't seem like much, but it really is. There's millions of users. Yeah. But they really are kind of pushing it out there. It's free for now. It may or may not remain that way, but yes, it's conversational, which is the transformative part, because you can type in a query into. You go to chat.OpenAI.com, you type in a query and it will give you an answer. And the query can be anything you want to ask. It could be, you know, I'm having a problem with someone in my life and I'm, you know, I'm not sure how to approach it. And it will give you that answer. People. There are people using this for therapy. But. Or it could be write me a song based on, you know, the. The misunderstood Generation X. And make sure in the song you use the phrase intergenerational sandwich. Right. And it will go and write. Write you lyrics. But then you could say, rewrite the first verse and make it from the perspective of a millennial, you know, and it will.

Yes. Threaded.

Right.

You can say, okay, now adjust this or say it this way. Yeah, it's incredible.

That's the transformative part is you get to tell it to transform itself and it's, it's not perfect. You can have it do math problems. There are people out there that say that some of the math answers that it comes up with look very confident and yet are very wrong. So it's going to get things wrong because it's not taught by humans. It is just trained by information that has been slurped in. And so.

And it's not con. It's not connected to the Internet.

Correct. It's not getting current information. That's right.

Yes. They, they upload it and it's there and. But you actually.

The data source isn't connected to the Internet.

A web browser. Yes. Yeah, but it'll tell you, if you ask a question, it'll say, oh, I don't have that because I'm not connected to the Internet. And, you know, but the reason I wanted to talk about it, we, we wanted to bring it up is, is it's an amazing. It's definitely a fundamentally new way, a new piece of technology that all of us are going to use. And all small business owners should be looking at this how AI is going to help you get your, get the word out about your business, solve problems. I mean, we've all probably dealt with those chat, you know, bots trying to do customer service. This is incredibly exponentially better.

Oh yeah.

In the sense.

And this will. Interaction with you, this will change customer service because one of the, one of the uses for this is to take your businesses like faq and maybe if you've saved all of your customer service responses in, in say like a fresh desk or something. Right. Slurp all that data in. And now when someone new comes in and asks a question, it can aggregate and sift through all of that, all of your very specific to your business data, and provide answers that are likely helpful. And it could learn from itself too, as it goes. Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating and it will. I've heard a lot of people say. One of the first things most people say is, oh my gosh, this is going to put Google out of business. Right. Because it's, you know, it's a search engine. Well, no, if once you can get the answers you need about everything from an engine like this, you will never use a traditional search engine again. How and that's true. I think that that is. Yeah, that is a fact. But this is not going to put Google out of business because this whole thing exists from, based on, in part, at least a paper Google published a number of years ago about their Lambda L A M D A service.

Not public. Right.

Which is not public. It is exactly this kind of transformative AI that was the first place it was really described, was when Google described it. And Google says their engine is even better than this, which of course is what Google would say. But I don't have reason to not believe them because they're Google. They know that this is going to replace Search and they know they don't want to be out of business. So it's stands to reason that, that they're already working on this and they, of course they, they are. So. But it's really. Yeah. For your business right now, especially if you're not using this. Anytime you have a question you can't answer you that you are putting yourself and your business at a disadvantage. Talk about using your business brain. I round up with a very minor everything's fine, very minor legal scenario. And I asked a couple of friends about it. It's with a business I have. And it was like, oh, okay, well, okay, I'm in this little minor pickle. I can probably navigate my own way through it, but always like to ask for the help of experts because I'm not an expert in the law. There's nuances to how the law works that, guess what, I don't know. Of course I don't know. And so I started asking some attorney friends around. I didn't want to pay yet for legal advice, although I may choose to do that. And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, obviously. And so one of them sort of gave me that specializes in this sort of area of things. He gave me enough about the way things work in this particular realm of the law. And I'm being vague here for, for reasons that hopefully I'll be able to share down the road and have a lesson about. But for now, no. But you know, he had some specific experience and he explained a couple of the mechanics of the way things might work to me and that was helpful. And that was helpful enough for me to then go to, to chat GPT and say, okay, please draft a response about this issue. And I put specifics in. And I know you're not supposed to do that with chat GPT because it's, it's public data and I probably shouldn't be Sharing, you know, legal strategies with a public engine. But the fact that I was willing to throw that away and just use it anyway should probably tell you a lot about how we humans value, or at least me, this particular human values convenience versus values privacy, which is an interesting thing. And the fact that millions of people are using ChatGPT for their legal needs and therapy and all of that, it speaks to this point. But I put it in. I said, do it this way and, you know, draft me a response. And it did. And then I said, oh, you know, the people that, that, that, that, you know, are quote, unquote, on the other side of this. I hate to hate thinking of it that way, but, you know, they, they had cited some precedent or something, you know, whatever, and it was like, okay, I'll actually amend that with references to this precedent. I was like, okay. And like, these responses are coming back as quickly as I am talking to you about them. Like, they are just right up. And so I was like, wow, this looks really good to me, but does it hold any water? So I sent it back to my friend, the attorney, and he's like, oh, my God, this changes everything. He's like, this is exactly. He's like, you just had. This is like what I would expect a legal assistant to draft. He's like, there's some things we should change here. He's like, but do you understand how much money you just saved yourself if you brought this to an attorney? You saved yourself hundreds of dollars in doing the draft yourself. A law office should start using this. And, and when he said that, that was the point where it was like, okay, yeah, okay, I'm, I'm gonna pat myself on the back for thinking to use chat GPT to not hire another, you know, not hire an attorney or not pay an attorney as much. Right. So, and that's great, but the attorney should be using Chat GPT to expedite this process, because instead of having a legal assistant, you know, spend hours drafting something, this thing did it with essentially the prompt from the, from the attorney in ten seconds.

Yeah. Is. It blew my mind. Same, because I'd seen some, you know, examples of it, and I've been playing around with it, and then when you showed me your example, it's like, oh, wow. And I made the comment, there are people that are going to be really good at using this Chat GPT or whatever other type of OpenAI comes along. Just like there are people that are really good at using Google. And on the flip side, there are people that are not very Good at using Google to find things. And they're probably the folks asking you questions all the time. And then just the same with this. The key thing is it's early, and this is your opportunity. What it reminds me of many, many years ago, I was on the phone with a colleague of mine who was just killing it, selling. This was the time where you bought. You actually bought operating system software on a disk. It was the glory days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The progress bar days.

It was wonderful. And he was just killing it. And I couldn't figure out. I was like, how are you doing it? How are you selling so many of these? And he's like, okay. First he wouldn't tell me, and then a little more cajoling. And I started talking with him more, you know, might have gone out to dinner. And finally he says, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you something that's new. And nope, not very many people know about it. And it's called AdWords. AdWords? What the hell is that? And basically, it was back just when Google started selling advertisements on their search engine. And I went and I looked and, you know, it was very. It was just reminded me of ChatGPT. There was not much to it. It wasn't very sophisticated. I could figure out on my own, and I could pay the minimum bid because you were bidding on keywords was a nickel, all right? And I could pay a nickel to get those customers to me. And it changed my whole business dramatically overnight when I started using it. Now, you know, those keywords cost you like five bucks, but at a nickel, it changed everything. I feel like this chat and the OpenAI, this is @ that same stage. And so you should tune yourself, open your mind up to this framework of how AI is going to interact with your business, no matter how small you may be, you may be by yourself. We just did an episode of somebody asking. I'm not quite ready to hire my first employee, but, you know, eventually you'll be able to use some service like this, and maybe you won't need to hire that employee for another six months or a year because you've got a stopgap that can help you and help manage things, your schedule, your. I mean, these things are interactive where it's not just spitting out an answer. It's. Then it gets more data and it comes back and gives more. It's. It's incredible.

No, I, I think you're, you're, you're spot on here. My advice, which I think is our advice to you and to ourselves, because this is a business brain where, you know, this goes. We basically tell you the advice that we're giving to ourselves, which is, yeah, spend some time with this. Just be stupid with it. Go sit down. You know, if, if maybe you want to have a glass of two buck Chuck with you, maybe you want to have a glass of seltzer, whatever it is, sit on the couch. Not in, don't do this in your work mode, right? Do this in your couch mode. Laptop on your, on your lap. Or you can do this on your phone too. It totally works on your phone. It's chat.OpenAI.com the links in the show notes at BusinessShow Co and just play with it, ask it stupid questions. It doesn't matter what you ask it, you just want to learn how to use it. And there will be others. This one might go away very soon. We don't know it's being provided for free. But you get to experiment for free right now. Because if you down the road, a query costs you $0.50, well, that's still super inexpensive, especially if you're making your queries valuable. But right now you get to learn how to make your queries valuable, how to engage with this thing. And right now, if you're listening to this, chances are if you figured out how to listen to podcasts, you're probably pretty good with Google, right? And you didn't start out good with Google. You got there by learning, right? And, and, and so you, you now, unless you already know you are a beginner with ChatGPT, totally fine, go in with beginner's mind play, be a child with it, be stupid, ask it dumb questions, learn and iterate. Remember that it remembers what it just told you in that session. If you, if you leave and come back, I think the session is wiped out. But, but just, you know, experiment with that part of it, especially because that's where it really is valuable, is saying, okay, yes, what you just said is good, but rewrite that or I need it from a different angle or you got to factor this, I forgot factor this thing in. It's amazing.

So, yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm doing exactly that, trying to experiment with it, because what I realized when I read the way you had phrased your legal question, I was like, oh, I'm totally missing it, you know. Yeah, because I'm, I'm not thinking that it's sophisticated as it is. And so I changed my whole framework and I asked it some technical questions of a issue that I'm having on my computer. And then I asked it some questions about hunting, you know, just to kind of get the. And it came back with very succinct and definitive, you know, suggestions and ways to phrase things. It's amazing. I can't put too much, too fine a point on it. You need to start experimenting with it.

Now and it will write. You code it like. Yeah. The other day we had a project that we're working on. We needed to tweak the configuration of our NGINX web server. And we had already done it. Like, we got there. And then I said to my. One of my business partners, Ryan, I was like, man, we should have used Chat GPT for this. And he was like, oh, let's do it. And so we did, and it wrote a similar configuration file to the one that we painstakingly crafted by looking at like, Stack Overflow and. But, you know, Stack Overflow doesn't have the answer for what I want. It has answers for what other people wanted that they shared. And, and I had to extrapolate. We had to extrapolate how to do that. With this. It wrote me the code and it put it in a little code block to make it easy to copy. Then I had it write a PHP script. I told it what I wanted the script to do and it wrote it and it was correct. It's freaking amazing.

It's awesome.

It's amazing.

Yeah, it is amazing.

Hey, this is the, this is the last episode we're doing this year.

Yeah. We're taking next week off. In between Christmas and New Year's, I spend time with family and use Chat GPT.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of listening to the show, ask Chat GPT what you might be able to have learned from Business Brain if there were an episode this week. And who knows, maybe. Maybe it'll tell you. I don't know.

There are some great episodes up at Business show or businessbrain show, all about things you should do end of year. And if you, if you go up to the website, search that keyword set end of year and you'll find three, four episodes we've done over the years. I'd love for you to go listen to those. And we didn't do another one this year because we've already done it a bunch of times. But go up and listen, you get some. Some tips on things that are important to do before the 31st.

Yeah. And hey, let us know feedback at BusinessBrain Show. Share your Chat GPT screenshots with us. We'd love to see how you're phrasing things. Have a good time. Enjoy your holidays here and keep living that charm life.