When The Guest Interviews The Hosts

Business Brain, episode 525 for Casual Friday, February 16, Innovation Day 2024. Greetings, folks, and welcome to Business Brain, the show where we take an idea or six, we dissect them, we discuss them, so that each of us can tune our business brains every single time we get together. Sponsors for this episode include miro.com podcast. That's where you're going to go to get your first three Miro boards for free forever. We'll talk more about that in a little bit. For now, here in Durham, New. Easy for me to say. Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. Happy Friday, man.

Happy, happy Casual Friday. Yeah, this episode is. Is super casual.

Awesome. I love it. This concept, you know, we. We had Ryan Sneddon on the local newsletter guy on for the Wednesday show and, you know, maybe 18, 20 minutes of great, I think, great content about how that business works. Yeah, the detail. But then when we stopped, we just kept talking and had a really great business therapy session back and forth. What works for you? How do you connect with people? How'd you get over failure? And I thought it was so good. My first comment when we stopped was, hey, I hope you recorded that because that's our Friday show.

I did. It's. I'm. I'm curious to listen back to it. And I have not yet, but because for the first five minutes, I was doing what I usually do, which is sort of producing the first episode, so I was half detached from the conversation. I don't know if I said anything, and if I said anything, I don't know what I said. So I'm really curious to listen back to this. But it was, yeah, very much. We were not on.

Yeah, everybody was relaxed and Ryan got to kind of interview us, if you will, back and forth about some questions.

We need to ask him if it's okay if we, if we release that before we do.

So I'll hit him up and make sure. If not, I'll edit out whatever he wants, but I'm sure he'll be fine.

He's pretty casual. I mean, we were live streaming at that point in time, so I kind of presume. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'll let him know. And it's great opportunity to kind of share another side of what's going on with us and how we've gotten to where we are and then listen to, you know, a new generation of business owner coming up. That's asking a lot of those questions about the grind. And you Know, building a foundation for success. Which man, I love talking about that.

Yeah, same. Yeah. All right, well we'll, let's do it. We'll leave you, we'll leave you to it.

Right. So you guys have been doing this for 10 years or nine years? Coming up on 10.

Yeah.

Five. This is episode five.

25, 24. It looks like. Yeah, that's wild. And it looks like. Or you said you've started business together. What did you guys start together?

Our first. I was Dave's customer.

Right.

Years and years ago with a company I owned called Mac Rescue. And I was buying ads on his, one of his sites and I reached out to one of their sales guys who was, they had started an advertising agency and I wanted to start a kind of deal based website and I was, I was spend a lot of money pushing my deals. I owned a tech company selling products wanted like you. I wanted an unfair advantage. So I wanted to start my own deal and news website and I reached out, I got connected with Dave and we ran that business for a decade. I really wanted to make, I had to make a thousand bucks a month to pay for my kids private school. And then 2000 and we grinded it out. After a couple years it started going, started going, you know, at its height I think it, we had a $30,000 month.

Yeah, yeah. We were each taking about 10, 10k a month out and, and then we had, you know, expenses.

Well, we weren't, we weren't doing it anymore. It was running itself and it almost sold. It's one of those right to the finish line. It might even have been the note that Dave wrote.

I could, I might have killed it. That's true.

This deal fell through and we had a media company involved. Dave had lunch with this guy, you know and we, we had a loi in the whole nine yards and it, yeah, we, I didn't know I was doing. And we were kind of asking for too much and then it just went up and down and then we didn't hear from him for like 20 days. And right at the end of that 30 day due diligence window, they backed out.

They bailed. Yeah.

So what happened? You guys just shut it down?

Yeah, we, well the lesson we learned was that, you know, you don't emotionally detach from the business or emotionally attach to the sale until the check has cleared. Yep.

Yes.

Because it kind of took the wind out of the business. And I was like.

And that advice is impossible to take. There is a, there is a moment before the check clears where you have to start thinking about what it's going to be like to hand this thing off. Right. Like, I mean it's impossible. So. But delay it as long as you possibly can.

Yeah, but then, so that. It was great. It was a huge success. Paid for all my kids education.

Oh yeah, it was awesome.

Then, you know, we kind of didn't do anything for I don't know how many years. And then I wanted to start this podcast among. I want to, I love talking about small business, you know, I don't, I didn't do it to make any money. I just wanted to start talking and so I reached out and said, dude, let's do a, you know, small business show podcast. Dave's advertising agency, Backbeat Media, had since transitioned to repping ads on podcasts. So again, another unfair advantage. And start doing it. But between the two of us, we've started about 20. 20 companies.

Yeah, we figured it out. It's over 20.

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, it's fun, man. You're on your way, dude.

Yeah, you're going to do it. Yeah, yeah. There's no way.

You're like, I try and surround myself with all my friends who are more, much more successful than me, but they're also much older and yeah, and, but, and that's like I call it the double edged sword because on one hand it's awesome, you know, I have friends that are worth literally hundreds of millions of dollars. And then on the other hand it's terrible because you're like, yeah, no, I would love to go to the Formula one race with you, but I can't, I'm not there yet. And like, I can't invest in this company that you're telling me about that you think I should because I don't have money to do that yet. But you have to be around those people because someday the switch will flip. And when my friend Brian says, hey, there's this really cool new company I'm investing, do you want to invest? I could say, yes, I'm able to now.

And you're turned into something because you're hanging out with those people that have and are able to do more than you can that will drive you forward. You, I think you have to do that. If all you did was surround yourself with people who are less successful or even as successful as you, you won't, like most of us won't level up.

That's why I want to move because I'm like, man, if I've been able to find this many people here in this small town. What. How cool would it be if I go somewhere bigger where there's like, framework, way more people who are. We're successful like this and. Yep. You know, there's all these axioms. People say, you know, your network is your net worth, but it's totally your five.

Five people. It is true. And I, I, in my experience, what you were building and then going to go to build the next thing, I always say we don't, as small business owners or entrepreneurs, we don't have freedom, but we have flexibility like no one else. And I can tell you, I know a couple of guys that are billionaires and hang out and drink beers with them, and they're constantly like, dude, you have. You can do anything. You can. You know, I fish and I hunt all the time. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go. And they're like, how do you leave? I got all this. And I'm just like, when is it enough, man? You know, Come on. But they get addicted to it, right? So. Yeah, yeah. But you're on the right track, that's for sure.

Oh, yeah.

Getting there. Who you guys got coming on next kind of business?

It's just us.

We're just doing us.

So we, we don't mostly do us.

Yeah, we mostly just talk it when we, we. We used to do interviews every week. And then what we saw over time is that's what everybody does.

Yeah.

So I did the Charlie Munger thing, and I'm all, we got to invert. And so we just cut off all interviews. We just started talking. Our engagement went up, our downloads went up, and then we cut the show in half and do it. We recorded it once, but we post a Wednesday show and a Friday show. So this Friday we're just, we're going to talk about. You know, I did a post about credit card chargebacks and scams and fraud today. That's getting some steam up up on X. And I'm. That's going to be the topic of the show.

Yeah, I saw that post. I didn't actually read it yet, but I did see it. Get out there.

Read it.

It's people. I love that invert. The Charlie Munger thing. You know, rest in peace. But that's the same thing. My favorite podcast ever is my first Million Hustle guys. Or, you know, back when it was the Hustle and they did the same thing. They were doing the interviews. They're on the constant hamster wheel of that. And I think one week, like by accident, they figured this out an interview fell through or something. And so Sam and Sean just talked, and they're just like, you know, let's, you know, let's make them business, like, break down on the. Right here on the show. And everybody absolutely loved it. And so they just kept doing that, and that became, you know, absolutely my favorite podcast. I go back and forth between listening to audiobooks and podcasts.

Sure.

And right now I'm in a podcast kick because I just. I love that show.

Yeah, it's a great show. And I agree is that the key is constant iteration. We. This used. This podcast used to be called the Small Business show, and we changed the name a couple years ago, so it's just keeping it fresh. And, yeah, we have advertisers, and I love it. The Shopify, the Miro and Amazon, all these guys advertise, and it helps pay the bills. Great to get a check every once in a while. But collaborating, I really love coming on, talking to Dave, and I say, yeah.

It'S just like an excuse for you guys to hang out.

That's exactly what it is.

Exactly. I always tell people when they ask about the podcast, and we're, like, sitting there having a beer, talking about. I said, we could have just recorded this conversation and it would have been a good podcast. Because people, there's my, you know, ideal listener. It's like, your customer profile is me. When I was starting out and I didn't have any support and everybody thought I was nuts, and how are you going to pay your bills? And all this kind of crap? And it's. I want to talk to that person who's listening in the middle of the night going, God, man, I don't know if I can make this work. I want. I want to help that guy.

Yep, That's. That's who I was when. Or not. Not quite who I was. That's who I wanted to be. When I first found the. My first Million podcast, I was still working a job. I hated it. I wanted to get out. And then I did quit, and then I became that guy who was listening to it late, being like, all right, I'm going to make it somehow. I'm going to learn something on this. I'm. Even if I'm not going to learn anything, I'm just going to listen to these guys who have done it, and it's going to help.

Osmosis helps, man.

It does.

It really does. Everybody does. They. They underestimate the power of it. Like, my. My sister was asking me. I was in Chicago this weekend, and she's like, you know, we're talking. I'm going to the. Either of you guys go to the Main Street Summit in.

Oh, yeah, I've got what? I've definitely heard it. Yeah. Seen it.

It's pretty. Brent B. Shore's thing. He's absolute killer. It's awesome. And I'm, I'm going to this thing because everybody that I like on X is there, you know, like every. I saw the lineup and I was like, this is the easiest yes I've ever had. I wanted to go last year, but I didn't have enough money. So I finally do this year. And she was like, why, why are you going? Like, what are you hoping to get out of it? I'm like, well, I'm just hope. I just want to be around these people. And she's like, and that's worth spending three grand on the ticket. And I was like, absolutely.

Like, yes, yes.

Ten years from now it might, it might take 10 years, but somebody that I met there might introduce me to somebody 10 years down the line that I started business with and make way more than 3,000.

Oh.

And she was like, that's the, you know, that's your hope to go to this thing? Like just no plan. I was like, yep, yep. That same reason I want to move. Absolutely no plan.

That's just that framework.

Want to be around those people.

No, it's.

It.

Yeah.

I, I had a business where we would. It was like Geek Squad before Geek Squad existed. We would go and like help people at their homes and offices with their computers. And you know, I would have some clients that would be recurring clients or I'd work for them at their business and they'd bring me to their home and invariably I was going to see clients who had more than I did. Right. You know, and I'd get to know them a little bit. You're sitting there, this is back in the day when you're feeding floppies into like install windows or whatever. So there was a lot of time to chit chat and not only did I develop my skills of having a. Developing a rapport with people, but I also just got to just by nature of what I was doing. I was immersed in their homes and just seeing how like, wow, these people live in the same town as me. But look at where they are compared to where I am. And it wasn't like I would go in with envy or anything. It was just awareness. It was like, wow. I.

That's. The awareness thing is also huge. And I'm sorry to Cut you off?

No, that's it.

I would not know what I wanted to do with my life. Like, I wouldn't know that owning a business was possible and creating incredible wealth for yourself was possible if it weren't for my uncle.

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My uncle started a construction company that he sold for I don't know how much money, but he's not worth quite 100 million. But I think he's on his way there, I'm sure. And I grew up seeing that. And it was the only person that I was close to that I ever owned a business. The only person I was really close to that had that much money. And I was like, I wouldn't know even know this was possible if he wasn't my uncle. Unless I had done something like you were doing. And you sure start to see those People.

Yes.

That's. I just think there's. The awareness is so huge.

It is.

Because so many people don't even know what's possible with.

Well, and I, I, like, I do have some issues with a lot of folks on X and even sometimes with the. The millionaire pod, where I call them civilians. People outside the. The entrepreneurial space.

Right.

Civilians are fascinated with the end state. And. And I think sometimes that can be daunting to just always hear about success. A success. I nailed it. Nailed it, nailed it. Versus this foundational building that you're doing right now that is crucial. I guarantee you'll tell the story when you're in your 50s, like I am, you go, dude, I had nothing. I started this silly newsletter and then that led to this.

Yeah, no, the first four years sucked.

It always sucks.

Overnight success takes about 20 years, so you're on your way 25, maybe twice. People are.

Civilians are very much at a disadvantage if they only focus on the end state and being enamored to it. And, I mean, I love pulling yourself forward. I want to get to this point, but the grind, man, it's. It's tough, but it expands. And all sudden, I can tell you, exponentially, opportunities start coming your way and, you know, yeah, you make good money, maybe get a couple things going. But building wealth, you know, as Dave and I can attest to, all of a sudden, it's like the flywheel starts kicking off and you're just like, holy, man, I couldn't have done this deal.

I can't wait. I know it's going to happen. I'm going to look back and I'm going to be like, you know, for the first four years, I couldn't find a dollar. I barely made it through. And then I, you know, finally got the place where I replaced my salary from the job. I quit. And to me, that's like, that's a huge deal.

It's a huge deal.

It took four years, three and a half years to get there.

Yeah. But now you get that you. Now you have that momentum.

And I'm. But I'm like, I think. And I'm pretty sure, based on, you know, the ad sales, that I think we could do this year. Even if I can't hire a salesperson, I just have to go do it myself. And then also teaching these people how to do this newsletter. I'm pretty sure I'll make four times as much money this year as I did last year. Yeah, but it wouldn't have been possible without, you know, the fourth, the Three Navy.

Yeah, you got it. You gotta grind it.

I made $0. $10,000.

Yes.

And you're like, you can't live on that. But no, I luckily had money saved up because I knew I wanted to do this.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I totally agree with you. I like how you call them civilians. That's more respectful. I like to call them normies.

No, but there's. They don't understand and they can't. It's just a mindset. Why are you doing this? And, like, right now, you know, I'm restarting. I want to build a business and productize my knowledge. I've shipped products my whole life, and I'm. I'm forcing myself. I'm actually donating my last product business to a great charity because I'm making myself stop because I'm addicted. Right. How much did I ship today? That's my rubric. My whole life. But I'm stopping and I'm starting again at zero. And in some ways, it's terrifying.

Zero, though.

Well, you know, well, it's.

It's. It's.

It's a new zero, though.

It's a new zero. Yes.

It's not zero, but it's your baseline line. But you're basically. I don't know what I'm doing as you go.

Yes.

Because you now, you know, you probably have thousands of people you can call.

Yeah, that's right.

And like, oh, yeah, I'm doing this.

Some.

This guy knows about that. Hey, you know, we. And that. It. The. It. It gets so much easier. Like, even just with your knowledge alone. It took me three and a half years to get to the point where Naptown Scoop was profiting, you know, a certain number. And I think I can get someone else there in a year and a half, because first of all, they won't. They'll know that I told you being around for the events is super important. They'll know that from day one, not. Not day or month. Number nine, you know, they'll know which Facebook ads work well to grow the thing. They'll know. No, you don't spend money, cash, because it doesn't work. Yeah, it's. But you also, like, you do spend. You donate advertising to every single event that asks because that comes back to you. It's, you know, all these things. Next time I start will start from zero. But it's the new baseline. It's not zero.

It's the new zero. Yeah, it's right. And.

And it's just starting with that on the fly.

I think that's Pretty good.

Yes. Something.

The new baseline.

I like that. Yeah, it's good. You got all kinds of good terms here. We, we, we love that kind of stuff on, on the show. It's great. But starting something that you know nothing about is really what. Okay, here's a brand new challenge. How do I do it? I'll suck. And there's a guy I follow, Lucas Bean up on X and he's at Luke 360 and he has this comment, have the courage to suck at something new.

Yeah.

And man, how did you learn how to do that?

Because I fail a lot.

Failing.

If you remember a specific failure or specific thing. Which one?

Yes. When I made. I made a million dollar mistake. I posted about this a couple weeks ago and I had to pay a million bucks. I said yes one afternoon and it screwed me a few years later and I had repay this company $1,000,000. I didn't have it. And it was.

I did read that.

Yeah, it was pretty popular post. It was brutal. Like, Yeah.

I think the whole time I was reading it, I'm like, man, I'm glad that's not me, dude.

But he's glad it was him now.

Yeah, now. Because at the time I kept telling myself, this will not be the definitive moment of my business career. But now when I look back, it was, but in the different way.

But yeah, it wasn't the, like, Shannon's a failure because of this. It's. Shannon's not a failure because of this.

Correct. Once I could do that, I was unstoppable. I'm like, dude, I ran two companies while I paid back a million bucks within five years. Yeah, it was a struggle. My wife stuck through it with me. And then things just started happening.

You have that momentum and you're no longer going to service that debt. I was huge.

And I was not afraid because I knew what's the worst that can happen.

I could pay back a million bucks. I'm good. I learned how to suck in a very different way. I learned through rock climbing.

Yeah.

Because I always wanted to go rock climbing. I was like, I love, you know, climbing everything. And I was like, I want to. I want to go rock climbing. That'll be fun. I think that's my sport. And nobody is good at rock climbing when they first start because you just never use those muscles like that. Like, it's just so hard. It's so different from everything else that you do in your daily life. And so I was terrible, absolutely terrible when I started, but I was a good climber. And, like, everything. Friends. And I used to climb buildings and, you know, all sorts. Like, trees. Could climb trees like nobody's business even, you know, when I was, like, 21, you know, weird time to be climbing trees, but I just like climbing stuff. But I wasn't very good at rock climbing because it's so different and hard.

Yeah.

And I remember my friend, actually my roommate in college, had always been saying these things like, oh, man, Ryan's good at everything. And I was like. It always made me mad when he would say that, because I knew it wasn't true. So finally I was like, why is he saying that? And then I realized, oh, he's saying that because I only do the things I'm good at. Yeah. That's why I'm really. That's why he's saying that I am good at everything I do. But that's because I. If I Like, he's never seen me play soccer. He's only seen me play ultimate Frisbee. We played soccer. It'd be like, oh, Ryan's definitely not good at everything. Yeah. And so when I started rock climbing, I was like, man, I'm not good at this. And my normal tendency in life when I'm not good at it is just to quit.

Stop.

And so that made me. Because I. For some reason, I was like, no, no, no. I just think I'm supposed to like rock climbing. And so I just kept doing it.

It's great.

And I actually got quite good at it. And then I realized after that, like, no, I. I could suck at things, because you have to suck at things when you start.

All right, well, whatever that was, is what it was, because we're recording this outro before we edited the middle, but we had the conversation in the middle. Yeah. You know, the ideas of unfair competitive advantage and, like, the power of osmosis and the awareness thing, I think these are super important. This might wind up being the most important episode we've ever done.

Could be one of the things that we tapped. Talked about that concept of. I call them civilians. These are people outside that entrepreneurial space, you heard me say. But that. That romanticism, if you will, or focus on the end state of success rather than helping people through the beginning and the middle, which are. Can be brutal.

Yeah. The process sucks. The process. Yeah. But.

But once you build and have that foundation, it gets easier and easier, and then it has the. The ability to exponentially grow.

Yep.

Which is the beauty of being an entrepreneur. And so I love that we touched on that and that really, you know, got me thinking. We should just let's. This needs to be the show, so, yeah, absolutely appreciate having Ryan on and I think it's going to be a great episode.

Hopefully you folks enjoyed it too. Feedback at business Businessbrain show. Let us know what you think. If you've got an idea for an episode or you think you might be good for one of these business therapy sessions, let us know and keep on living that charmed life. We'll see you next week.