Why Creatives Need a Business Brain

You know, what I like to say is that every single business is in the customer service business, because if you don't have customers, you don't have a business. And this is exactly the type of thing that you're going to hear today on episode 395 of Business Brain for Wednesday, August 31, 2022. Greetings fol. Hey folks, and welcome to or back to Business brain here at BusinessBrain show, the show for entrepreneurs and really anybody who wants to take the idea of using your Business brain to anywhere in life. Sponsors for this episode include business capital providers@bcproviders.com SBS where you can find out how you can get funded for as much as 250 grand in as little as 72 hours. We've got more details to share on that in a few minutes. For now, here. Back here from Podcast Movement in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton, and in.

Lovely Lafayette, California, I am Shannon Jean. Welcome back. How was Podcast movement?

Podcast Movement was fantastic. You know, it was interesting. We had the last episode was that crossover episode we did with Gig Gab. And prior to the episode we were talking about how the three of us, mostly how the two of you, you and Paul Kent had met because Paul, it ran Macworld Expo for so many years. And obviously you were an exhibitor there and maybe not obviously you were an exhibitor there. And there was a question asked, and I think it was Paul who asked it. Is there. He was sort of asking it in a pie in the sky way. Is there still value in attending conferences? And the weird. And I knew why he was asking it because I know Paul so well, but I've heard several other people ask that same question, kind of. I mean, I. We recorded that episode 12 hours before I got on a plane to. To go to Dallas. In those 12 hours, maybe the 14 hours at the airport, you know, including the time I was there, I had like three other people ask me that question, like, is our conference is still worth it? And my. As that sort of percolated in my head, I came up with a very snarky but I think pointed response to that, which is by asking that question, you're telling me that conferences were something that was never of value to you because there's huge value and it's the same value it's always been. Attending an industry conference allows me to dive into the echo chamber. And I know that can sound like a negative thing, like, oh, everybody there is into podcasting.

Woo.

Okay, great. I mean, if my life was like that, you know, 24, 7, 365. That would be terrible. I would get. I would not be productive. But to go and dive in for, you know, 72 hours into that echo chamber where there's like a common knowledge base among everyone, and then being able to have nuanced conversations about sort of the. The nuts and bolts of what we do and why we do and all of that is super valuable. A just to be sort of reinvigorated by what we do, but also literally to learn things about how we do what we do and how to get better at what we do. Because guess what? It doesn't matter that I've been podcasting for 17 and a half years. Somebody that started six months ago knows something I don't know, and it's because they started six months ago. Yeah.

And especially for remote workers. I mean, there's so many other benefits to the show besides what you're talking about right now. The fact that you can get together with other people like minded and hang out and talk and pick up and the things come to the surface. It's like you learn by osmosis and you connect with all these people. One of the comments I said last week on the crossover show with Gigab was I used it for training our employees. We always brought new employees to the trade show, pushed them out into the aisle, made them stop people talk and learn how to interact with potential, you know, clients. And it was really powerful and great for team building. So may. I think maybe people had, you know, trade show fatigue after a while.

I can see that. I certainly did. Yeah, that's.

Yeah, yeah, so. So having less of them. And I know I had it too. And you'd go. And we, you know, we've done shows at least one, I think, or more on how to get the most out of a trade show. And so, you know, you really have to think about it.

But what's interesting is I don't think any of the things I just, I could be wrong about this, by the way. I don't think any of the things I just said about the value of what I experienced last week at podcast movement were things that I said in our pre Covid break shows about the value of conferences. Because I was in trade show fatigue mode, you know, like, yeah, you're right. The. I know that I had very negative feelings about the whole enter the echo chamber part of conferences. And I now realize that every time I did it, even those times where I went into it thinking, man, again, I gotta do this. It's the frickin echo chamber. They're all gonna say the same thing. Everybody's gonna be excited about the Mac or podcasting or whatever it is. It's like, it gets old. My gosh. But I realize now that that was still fuel for me. I just didn't notice it because I had done it so much. You know, there was the. The frequency of. It was too much. But it's so good.

Yeah, yeah. We'll have to. Have to go back.

I'll go back and listen.

Was the first. First one we ever did. Attending conferences, trade shows like a Pro. And then 258, we actually did. Planning for trade show success.

Okay.

And with some creative methods. So I don't know, maybe you mentioned there. I'm not sure you did.

I'm gonna listen. Yeah, I'm gonna listen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good point. But, you know, it's. It's great. You know, the podcast business is a creative business, right? It is, and it's fantastic. I love it. I really enjoy it. One of the best parts of my week, I always say. I learned the most on these shows. It's terrific. So if it's okay with you. What I'd like to talk about is the business of being a creative and your role as a business owner, especially if you're in the creative arts, you know, and you pick whatever it is. Graphic, you know, graphic design, music, what you know, and I think it ties in well with the show we did.

I was just going to say this is nice for all our.

Our.

Our listeners who came over from Kit Gab.

So.

Yeah. This idea.

Yeah.

All right.

And. And I know a little bit about this because I have a creative in my family. My daughter Skylar is. Was a theater major in production and design when she went to college. And I remember having this discussion with her and. And we've talked about this recently as well, the ROI of, you know, a college tuition. Right.

We did 386. That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we're both in the thick of it.

I'm.

I think we're both kind of trending. A couple more years, we'll be, you know, beyond the.

I'm not sure that I will ever pay again. My son, it be partially because of the. The fact that his college jacked up the price and.

Yeah.

Partially because of the fact that there's no housing for him to have and partially because of the fact that the department he was in at Reed College, where he was going, the computer science department lost all but one professor and Then sort of reassembled the team at the last minute and then somebody else dropped out. All those things combined. So Price was one of them. But arguably in the beginning, I felt like Price was the biggest one. I came around on that and the other things sort of informed this decision. But he is at the very least taking this semester off and we'll see what happens. But that's great. Well, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's great, like I never finished college and things worked out for me, but I, I don't exactly. I, you know, I don't, I don't, I certainly don't mean to impose the crazy path in life I chose on anyone, especially not my children.

So, yeah, it's all, it's all different for them.

It's all different. Yeah. Yeah.

And I can remember when we started having this discussion of where, you know, Skyler was going to go to college and, you know, she had gotten some scholarships, a few different places to partial scholarship. Yes, of course, you know, going to New York was very expensive. And I can remember looking at this, going, okay, yeah.

How.

I don't know. I, I'm really focused on the ROI of everything I've got. My business brain is, you know, massive. And so I can remember having a discussion with, with her after researching. I said, okay, I'm on board. I'll. I'll pay for this be. And, but this is the only reason why, is yes, you're a creative person and you're in the arts, but deep down you're a manager. Ah. And I watched her in high school running the theater. She was the president of the theater, you know, the group or whatever they called it back then. And, and she managed. And I remember her coming home saying, you know, dad, my friends are telling me that I'm, I'm bossy. And I said, well, you're, you're the boss. That's why they don't like you telling him what to do. So, yes, let's, let's tips on how to get your, you know, friends to do things for. That they have to do as persuasion. But I felt that because she was on that management path that the investment would be, would be worthwhile.

Sure.

And so far it's proven.

I was going to say, yeah, you have to. You have to. I mean, any investment comes with a risk of not knowing for certain the outcome of it, or at least most investments. I suppose there's some that are guaranteed, but that's one of them. That's not. And there are many that aren't and we use our business brains to analyze those things. And I had to pull my business brain out a little bit of the financial side. I had to zoom out with my business brain. I don't want to say I had to turn my business brain off. I had to zoom my business brain out when looking at the value of a college education over the summer when I sort of had to. Had to stare down this, this tuition hike and. But anyway, at this point, I don't know what's going to happen with. Yeah, but it'll be interesting. It's going to be interesting. Yeah. And obviously it seems like the world. I feel like, I feel seen Shannon with the, you know, the world finally talking about this whole thing. And I love that regardless of where someone falls on the 10 to $20,000 in debt forgiveness per person, you know, that that has recently been announced, whether someone is for that or against. Seems like 100% of the people are like, okay, well, but this, the debt is a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem. The actual problem is the fact that college costs so much that people are incurring crippling debt that they are unable to dig themselves out of. The whole idea is that you should be able to earn your way out of the debt that you incur. And, you know, I will. I'm sure someone will spin this as political, but I really don't mean this as political.

No, no.

Although it is. This whole problem began when or was exacerbated when the rules were changed that college loans were not dischargeable by bankruptcy. That effectively meant the government was backing every college loan. And it's like, well, if they aren't responsible for, like, of all the loans you take out, that's the one that is supposed to be the path to earning the money to be able to pay it back. Right. Like, I've taken out stupid loans in the past. I've taken out smart loans in the past.

Yeah.

And some of the stupid loans are like, well, I know, I believe in my heart of hearts that spending this money that no one else thinks I should spend is going to pay off. And sometimes it has and sometimes it hasn't. The college loan is one of those that should, like, almost have a guarantee of paying off if you, if you apply yourself. And there's lots of people who have applied themselves and it doesn't pay off. And it's because the net price is too freaking high.

Yeah, it is. Anyway, the schools need to be held.

Accountable, and that's what it is. The schools need to be the ones extending the loans, then guess what?

Yeah, yeah. Everything will change. I think the government should be involved in it. And if the schools can't make it work, there's a reason. So.

So, but absolutely. Does everybody need four years of education? That's a whole other episode.

That's a whole nother.

I didn't.

So, so, yeah, yeah, that's right. And so you know when you're in this creative thing and you're okay, I'm in business, a lot of creatives just find themselves in business. Just, it just works that way. You know, you start doing things maybe as a side hustle or you're working for someone and doing things on your own and it grows and grows. And as you mentioned in the intro, couple things. Number one, the first thing to realize as you get into this is that you are in the customer service business. You got to make your customers happy no matter how small or how big your business is. And I think that, you know, that's real important. And I'd love to talk to talk about that more.

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Let me, let me back you up, Let me back you up right there. I would say before we get ahead of ourselves, I would say one of the first decisions you probably made to start a creative business is you decided that you can't just create all the time.

That's correct.

And that is a fundamental first thing you need to think about is that you want to be self employed. That's great. And you can go along and be self employed and be very successful. And if that's your definition of success, that's terrific. And more power to you and I hope you do great. But if you want to build a business, you want to build a company, you want to grow, you want to create wealth, you want to live what we kind of consider a charmed life, you have to make the decision that I'm not going to create all the time. You're going to surround yourself with other creatives, you're going to use other outside things. I think that's really important, a fundamental part of making that decision. And until you do, it's going to be tough.

I have this conversation in my own head and sometimes out of my own head, often with my friends who are very much creators, the artist friends, which includes, you know, musicians and all other types of art, my theater friends, all of that. If you are going to be a creator full time, you or someone with whom you are partnered needs to do the not creating part of running the business. Yes, Selling things. You know, I say it all the time when I'm, you know, when I'm looking at the music side of my life, it's like, okay, well this is all great. How are we gonna put asses in seats? Because that's what you need. You gotta put asses in seats and money in the box. Because otherwise, you know, you're not. The creativity, the creation is not sustainable. The creativity might be sustainable, like for a lot of people that I know it very much is. But if you want to afford yourself the ability to keep doing that, you got to put the money in the box and the asses in the seats.

Absolutely.

You know, like, sometimes that actually means asses in seats and other times it just means having an audience paying attention in different ways. But you get what I'm saying, folks?

Yes, yes. And you know, part of that making the decision to, that you're not going to be create, you know, be able to create all the time is also understanding and agreeing to the concept that you can't get stuck in just selling your time. Right. It's. You have to step away from that paradigm. You know, it's a prison. Is, you know, if you're billing hourly. You're, you're, you're in a prison and at some point and you can start off that way. And I would say a lot.

Lots of businesses do not.

I mean, that's okay.

Yeah, lots of, lots of consultants do like that.

Consultants do.

That's. And that, that was where I realized it more was in my consulting business was like, wait, I need to figure out some way of not. I thought about it as, you know, the monkey on your back. Right. I get paid for every monkey that I carry, but it takes, you know, a fixed amount of time to carry each monkey. And how do I carry 10 monkeys at the same time? Well, I can't if it's just me. So how do I make it so that I can help others carry the monkeys? And now we can all make a little bit more together. And that's where it all started. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's great. And so there's nothing wrong with carrying.

Monkeys, by the way. No offense to the monkeys out there.

Good money in it. Good money.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And you know, I think that some of the things we're going to talk about, I think creatives kind of, kind of miss, but they're fundamental to being successful. We've talked about them here on the show before and I want to dive back in. But before I do, I do want you. I have a question for you, Dave. Okay. I'd like you to expand on this concept that, because I think it's really important, is that every business, no matter what you're doing, is in the customer service business. Because that's another fundamental framing of how you build a company that's really important to creatives and all business owners. And I'd love to hear more.

Well, it's that you can value your own work and hopefully you do. And it doesn't matter whether. And again, this whole idea of segmenting businesses to being creative businesses and not creative businesses, I actually have a problem with that because I think most businesses are creating something and it requires creativity. But regardless of what you're doing, hopefully you value your own work. But that generally doesn't provide for an income for the business. And then of course not for you. You have to get other people who value your work and you have to take care of those people and make sure that whatever you are providing to them, they are receiving well, that they are getting what they expect out of it and that it is a value to them. So that they will hopefully either if it's a one time thing, they will tell other people about it or if it's something where there's recurring revenue, they will keep buying from you going forward, and hopefully it can be both of those things. So you get some recurring revenue and some referral revenue. But they are your customers, and the most important thing is to keep your customers happy. Now, that doesn't mean doing every single thing your customer asks of you. And this is especially true if you're an artist, right? Where you're, you know, you're creating music or you're creating theater, you're creating, you know, paintings, whatever it is. Create things that serve your artistic vision, but make sure your customers understand what you're doing. And so that might be. I need to write a blog post explaining why this song is something I hope they'll listen to or why this painting is something of value. You need to serve your customers. If the customer has a problem, not necessarily with your art, but with, say, you know, some logistical issue with your payment system that you've chosen to use, which I know is a headache, and you don't even want to have that in your life. But if they have a problem with that, don't ignore them. Go out, reach out, engage with them, apologize and help fix the problem if you can. That's what I mean about the customer service. Because you can't be in business if you don't have customers. I wish I could figure that out, because customers often are like, it's a headache. That's how it is. But that's how it is.

That's great. And so, yeah. And that. It is so true. And you just. You have to remember this. So you made a commitment. You understand you're not going to create all the time. You're in the customer service business. You're not just billing your own hours. Maybe you have other people. You're out there. You're providing contracts based on your work, the quality of your work, your experience. Very important. The other thing I would say is you need to be a professional. You need to consider yourself to be a pro. You know, when we had. We were doing, you know, computer repairs, I had everybody walk out front in lab coat because I wanted. I used to tell the technicians, I want people to feel like they're in the doctor's office because it allows you to, you know, your image is more professional. And the more it's. The more professional you look, the more you can charge for your services, for your products. You know, the more professional your website looks, the better. Everything from your email address. Don't use Gmail for your creative business. Get a website. Get your own email with your company or whatever you're calling it. Get a different phone number other than mobile, even if you use Google Voice to link into it. But make the commitment to be a professional now more than ever. It doesn't cost much money to look really great. It doesn't cost much money to have somebody answer your phone for you when you use a virtual service like we've talked talked about here.

So it's funny, we have this conversation on gig gab all the time. Paul and I do that. Live music is a visual art, and you need to be aware of how you look on stage because your audience is already aware of how you look on stage, right? So there's a whole thing in the sort of weekend warrior musician world that is 100% against anyone wearing cargo shorts. Okay? Now, and I get it, right? Because if you show up on stage like you didn't care about your attire, if you, you know, if you just finished mowing the lawn and then you went and played a gig, people are going to know that you look like you just finished mowing the lawn and now we're playing a gig. However, I always offer Jimmy Buffett as the alternative here. He's made a very comfortable living wearing cargo shorts, and he sells. It is aspirational when he wears cargo shorts, right? And he knows it. He's like, this is not accidental. He has a vibe about him and he sells that vibe in his Persona, in his music, in his marketing, everything, right? Everybody wants to be as laid back as Jimmy Buffett who owns a fricking island. I guarantee you there are lots of moments where Jimmy Buffett is not laid back, right? But that's the image you get, and it's the. Right. It's a good image. So cargo shorts work for him, but he is fully aware of how he looks every time he walks on stage. And, you know, it's calculated, very calculated. Now, it might have started as an accident. That's fine. You learn a lot of things by mistakes and accidents. Some of them are, you know, good mistakes, some of them are bad mistakes. I don't know how he got to that. That decision point where it became intentional, but it's very much intentional, and there's nothing wrong with that. And yeah, and to your point, like, you. You. The first person who needs to see you as a professional is you. And once you see yourself as a professional, then your audience can see or your customers can see you that way, too.

Yeah, it's great advice. Another thing, when you're Getting started is I highly recommend you read or listen to the E. Myth. There's a book, it's called E. Myth Revisited. It's been around for a long time, but one of the biggest things you'll learn in that book is how to not let your business run you. How you can be in charge and not get overwhelmed by everything. And I didn't have the luxury of reading it before I started, but after getting just buried and buried after, you know, four or five years, somebody handed me that book and I read it and it was like, oh, man, I'm missing. I've been missing this for so long. And I highly recommend that you read that for creatives or for every business. It's just always, I've got a copy I'm looking at right here on my desk. I hand it out to everybody I talk to.

Amazing. I think of all the things we've recommended on the show over the years, we have recommended the E. Myth more than anything else.

Yeah. And the one fundamental thing that helped me the most was even when you're starting out, you create a chart of, you know, what's the word I'm looking at? Of every job that needs to be done? Org chart. An org chart for your business. And you put your name in every single box because you're doing everything. But as you build and grow your business, you have that org chart in front of you so you can see it. Then you just say, oh, yeah, I can check this. I can. I can bring this person in and put them in this role. I need someone to do this. It's. It's. It's just fundamentally life changing. And then, you know, and then we talk about advisors, and I think that we always talk about board of a board of advisors. And maybe as a creative, this is, you know, maybe a little more formal than you're used to. And we talk about, hey, get a bank person to help you, an attorney, your accountant. But maybe at the beginning, you could just ask one of your peers or maybe a mentor to sit on your informal board of directors. Yeah. You know, look at who's already doing what you want to do and reach out and ask them and make a connection and start talking to them. Most people want to help, honestly.

And I know I can't offer this forever, but reach out to us. Feedbackusinessbrain show. We're happy to talk to you and share our advice and share our experiences with you. I know that we can't do it forever, certainly not for free, but for right now, it doesn't hurt. Shoot us an email, ask us if we have time. We'd be like, right in this very moment. I'd be super glad to help. And I really mean that. And I know, you know, you said it too. So feedback at Businessbrain show. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it's great. I read, you know, I heard this phrase again recently.

I know what you're about to say. And I, I like, I, yeah, this is, this is. I, I love this.

Go ahead, we'll see if it's right.

We'll see if I'm right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I heard this phrase and I realized as I look back, because I love looking back at things and going, oh, yeah, that worked. That didn't, but. And the phrase is, you're the average of the five people that you hang out with the most. So as you're getting your business going, think about this and why not hang out with awesome people that want to help you succeed? And it could just be your friends, but you want to hang out with people that want to lift you up, that you could be comfortable talking about things, comfortable talking about failure and not, you know, telling you how you screwed up or how you're not going to make it. You don't want to listen to naysayers. We did an entire show about, I think it was called fueling your success with the tears of the of naysayers. Right. And we'll put a link in the show notes. And it's. I can tell you from being able to look back and having some success with a number of different businesses, it's awesome to talk with somebody who was just convinced you were never going to make it. And it's powerful and it is fuel for your, for your success. So hang around people, whether it's peers, people that are already doing what you want to do, but align yourself with a group of people that can offer you support that you really need.

Yeah, no. Ryan Stuman, who's the hardcore closer, we interviewed him a number of years ago when his book came out. He has this phrase. He says, you need to fight the force of average.

I love that.

Right. And it's exactly this. And as he digs into it, he says almost the same thing you're saying here is that you gotta look at who you hang with and you need to choose to not let the people that you hang around with bring you down. When I started to tie this into the whole creative thing, when I started playing the drums, of course I was self conscious and all that stuff. And I didn't have much confidence in my playing, and I didn't know much and any of those things. And so I always avoided playing with people that were better than me. That went away very quickly when I found myself on a gig with people who were better than me. Because it's bound to happen, especially when you don't know a whole lot. It's kind of how it works. And immediately I was like, wait, this is the best thing I can do. I strive to be. I don't always succeed at this. And it's okay. I'm happy to mentor other people, and there's always something to learn, even from, especially from the beginners. But I always like to be the person on stage or in the rehearsal room that is the least experienced, because that means I get to learn the most that day. Now, that might not be true. They might learn more from me than I learned from them. But playing with people that are above you and hanging out with people who are above you will make you naturally rise up to their level. And if you're hanging out with people who are below you, the same thing happens. You know, there's a normalization that occurs. And so you gotta be really aware of how you're choosing to spend your time. And I know most people don't like to shine lights back on themselves, but ask yourself why. If you are hanging out with people that are, you know, if you are the most successful one of your, you know, your peer group, or you are the, you know, the best player or the best artist in your community, ask yourself why you continue to be a part of that community and really honestly answer that question and then decide what to do the next day. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Because you might have a very good reason for being with the people that you're with, and that's okay. I don't want to judge that, but I want to make sure it's intentional and that you're aware of the reasons that you're doing it. That's all.

That's smart.

Yeah.

I think that one thing to remember, too, and another thing we talked about on the show a lot, is this concept of a thousand true fans. If you can use that, especially in the beginning, and really get. And we'll put a link in the show notes to go learn more about this concept of being a creative, being able to make a living. And the way I look at it is it would allow you to kind of have a foundation to be like, okay, great, I've got this support, and I Built this, this part of, you know, my business now because I have these thousand true fans or whatever number works for you. You can then grow your company and truly build a business. Yeah, take a look at that. I have a whole kind of laundry list of tools that I think creative businesses need. And rather than go over on the.

Show, well, you want to, you want to just do a. We will put them in the show notes, but will you just take a minute and, and read through each of them? Kind of lightning round this, Just read down the list.

Yeah, I think what you need, it's kind of similar for all businesses but especially creatives. You need a legal service like Legal Zoom or Rocket Lawyer to help you get set up, get an employee identification number, all that stuff. You need Slack or Teams to collaborate with people. You need to accept payments with stripe square or PayPal. Some online service. It's much easier than a traditional bank. You know, I hate banks. I love filemaker. It changed my life and I use it every single day.

Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm with you there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need some project management software, something like Asana or some other service online that you like to help keep things, you know, straightforward. Fiverr and Upwork to manage and hire contractors or, you know, for specific projects.

I recently, I recently used Fiverr again, it. For whatever reason it had been a while and I don't know, I had a bad taste in my mouth about the quality of Fiverr work. I incorrectly, folks, I like, I, I just, yeah, it was, I had a prejudice against it for whatever reason.

Depends on who you hire. They just redid our logo for us when we did, when we shifted over to business brain.

Yeah, that's right. I needed, and I knew that. And for one of my other businesses, I needed to take a logo that we'd been using and turn it into a vectorized logo so that I could, you know, use on T shirts without it looking all jaggy and crappy.

Yeah.

And I mean, I had, I want to say five iterations of this thing done. And with a tip that I at a healthy tip that I added at the end, I paid $21 for. I mean, like, yeah, there's good stuff.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah.

Last few things, you need some great accounting software because you got to track your stuff not just to be legal, but to take advantage of all the write offs and additional benefits you get as a business owner as part of the Charmed Life concept. There's a lot more than just making money to, you know, to Building wealth and living that charmed Life. You need HootSuite or a similar software to manage your social media. And then I think you need online contracts and documents, either hello Sign or docusign so you can have your clients go up there and pay. So overall, my message here is, comes back to where I started. You need to commit to being a business owner, not just a creative person if you want to grow that business. And as Dave said, we're here to help. We'd love to talk with you. Now's a great time if you want to reach out and feedback at BusinessBrain Show. I'm still making that conversion and we love talking about this stuff. We love sharing. We've been doing it for 25 plus years, so it's great to give back. And remember you want to surround yourself with the five people that can really help you the most.

It's true.

A couple of them may be sitting right here.

I know you had this advice in your list and skipped it in the interest of time, but I, I will share one thing that I have seen work to help convert a lot of my creator only friends and colleagues into being in the business of a creator. And that is by creating your own llc. I know, know it's just a formality, but for a lot of folks, that is the thing that makes it real and, and for whatever reason sort of tips the scales on that conversion so you know, you can, you can form an LLC very, very easily online. You know, it'll cost you a couple hundred bucks at most and, and you're good to go. So I would, I would, I would look at that too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. And Legal Zoom or Rocket Lawyer can help you form that llc.

Absolutely.

Protect your assets as you grow your business. Very, very important. So thanks for that tip, Dave.

Yeah, no, of course. I just didn't want to skip that because, because I've seen it help so many people as just that little key of moving it across. So yeah, thanks for hanging out with us. As Shannon said, we are here at feedbackusinessbrain show and really reach out. If you want something, keep living that charm life. See you.