Working and Succeeding with People You Dislike

Business Brain, the Entrepreneurs podcast, episode 404 for Wednesday, November 2, 2022. Greetings folks and welcome to Business Brain, the show where we are. We talk about how we're using our business brains in business and in life. It's what we do, it's what we talk about. Sponsors for this episode include Shopify, where you can go to shopify.comsbs to get your 14 day trial and full access to Shopify's entire suite of features. We'll talk more about some of those features in depth in a little bit. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

And out in Lafayette, California, I'm Shannon Jean. Enjoying a little rain that we had yesterday, it could be a good harbinger for a wet winter in California.

That would be a good thing for you folks. Yeah, yeah.

Dramatically.

Yeah. It's interesting. As we were saying, you know, where we are here, I was thinking about a change that just happened in my family. My daughter, who graduated college in the spring, just moved to Italy. That's awesome. Yeah. To her boyfriend plays pro hockey over there. And so she's over there and trying to like, figure things out and how to be able to work there and like working it all out. And it's great. It's fantastic. I mean, it's saying goodbye to her sucked, you know, but of course. But that's a good thing, I think, you know, because it means that we're actually going to miss her and we're not just happy to have her go, but we are happy to have her start her life and start doing things on her own. And, you know, I wound up having this conversation with her that I thought was a good business brain kind of thing. She, you know, she finished four years of college and her plan throughout was she has a degree in the sort of event production field and that she, she has, she did some internships there. She has all kinds of contacts at least in, in this neck of the woods for, you know, getting more work there. And that was her plan, you know, it was fine. Okay, yep, solid plan, sure. And then it was like, yeah, but actually instead I'm gonna, you know, go live in Italy and try and figure out that. And I was like, okay, great. And she asked at one point, she's like, you know, are you, she asked, you know, Lisa and I, my wife and I, are you guys mad that I'm not just immediately jumping in and using my degree and all that stuff? And I said, no, no, no, no, no, quite the contrary. You.

She.

And that's What I said to her, you figured out that you can do whatever you want with your life, and you just are gonna have to do whatever you need to do to make it happen. And like that. How could I possibly be upset about that? And we had this conversation. Then she sort of understood it from my perspective. She's like, oh, yeah, I'm like that. To me, that's like, you know, I'm. My work here is done. If you figured out that you can do what you want and pave your own path, whatever that path might be, that's great. Like, that's the key to life, I think. And part of that path is, you know, she's got to figure out how to get a work visa over there in Italy. And, like, these are not traditional things, and it was supposed to get worked out for before she got there. And that all got screwed up, and she's like, screw it. I'm going anyway, and I'll figure it out while I'm there, or I won't, and I'll come back and work in the States. You know, it's like, whatever. Like, oh, perfect. Great.

Yeah, it's a big deal.

My work's done.

When we were talking. Yeah, when we were talking about this, I realized, you know, there's a power in making decisions that kind of go against the norm, go against the. The common path that everybody thinks you should take in life. Whether, oh, you know, so. And so went, oh, what? First it's, what college are you going to? Well, you know, there's, you know, young people that are like, well, I think I'm going to do this other path, and I'm going to start a business. I'm going to do whatever. And then after, it's like, okay, where are you going to go?

Work?

Where are you getting a job? And. And, you know, we used to. A lot of people go and do their own things, but out here in California. But I think that it's almost like you're. You're pushing against this kind of rubbery texture of society. And if. And if you can keep and learn early, like, she has to make decisions that kind of go against me. All her friends, maybe, that are going off and working and getting their career started. And she's like, well, I'm gonna go something different. You kind of push through that. You do rubbery, mucusy substances trying to.

There's resistance there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

You know, we. We mentioned all the time on the show this. That Steve Jobs quote about, you know, you can't connect the Dots until you look back on them.

Yeah. You can only connect them going backwards. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. You can only get. But that. That is that power to make uncommon decisions that go against the grain and that you may have to explain to people because they're just like, wait, I don't understand. You did this. And now it's.

You're.

You're doing something completely different that's really powerful. And especially if you have young people in your life to explain to them. And perhaps they don't have to, but they can embrace that and it could make all the difference for them.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, it did for me. I can remember going completely sideways right out of college and having to explain to my business partner's parents that, yeah, we're going to start this company and we're going to do this. And they just looked at me like he was an engineer. I was landscape construction, you know, guy this. And like, it's like I could just see in there. And they're very. They were awesome people, but, you know, they had lived a very traditional life and very successful. But. And they were just. I could see it almost. It coming out of their ears. Why aren't you staying in your lane? You know, why are you doing so. Why do you want to do something different that, you know, that you weren't. They didn't plan on?

Yeah.

And it made all the difference. So I commend her, and I know she'll be better for it.

Oh, yeah. Regardless of where she winds up a year from now, two years from now, five years, ten, whatever. Like this. The power that she has realized to use her business brain and just do take the path that makes sense for her in the moment and to know that that's okay. To me, that's a huge win. There's that Robert Frost poem. I believe the title of the poem is the Road Not Taken. But the end of the poem says, two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's great. Same. Yeah, same. I mean, it sucks that she's gone and, you know, I don't get to see her and all that, but, you know, it's like the world is smaller. We, you know, I. We get to. I mean, we text her all the time. It's that. That hasn't changed. You know, we can zoom with her and. And now we have an excuse to go visit Italy.

There you go. And Just think of all the problems that she'll be solving over the next few months and that mentality that she will embrace of figuring things out and how to make this work and, and even seemingly small things, you know, reorienting, reorientating yourself in a totally different society city, how, how to get around how things work. Those are like super important. And they, they will serve her well.

For they might be. Yeah, the next three to whatever months may be more valuable for her than, than the four years of college education, but it'll all add together. It's not like any of it's wasted. I know. I think it's, it's. I think it's great. I'm stoked about it. So. Yeah, it's good stuff.

It's good stuff, man. Uncommon decisions.

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Yeah.

Present company excluded, of course.

Of course. Yes, of course. Absolutely. Well, I was thinking about this topic earlier this week and I don't know how I got on it, but you know, figuring out how to work with people, manage them, especially if they, if they're an employee of yours and, or, or even if they're like some sort of business partner, vendor, supplier, you're going to deal with all kinds of people that you really, you may not like them very much, you know, from, for many reasons. And I thought it would be worth today to kind of dive in and talk about some ideas on and some, some tactics to maybe convert those feelings of dislike to something better because, just because you don't like them or maybe they don't like you. Right. That's, that can be even more powerful.

Yeah. You know, as we, as we were, you know, sort of starting to chew around this topic, but one thing kept coming up for me and, and it's mostly, you know, me thinking back on working with people that I didn't get along with or you know, whatever like this type of thing. And as I, as I analyzed it to try and surface, you know, okay, so what were the things and of course what were the tactics that I used to, to deal with it? Some of it was extracting from the scenario, but you know, so we'll talk about others that might be a little more productive. But the thing that kept coming up for me was fear. Like why is it that I don't like this person? Why is it that I didn't like working with this person? And it's fear now it might be fear of I don't trust them. And so I am afraid literally of the action they're going to take next. I don't. Right. You know, so like, okay, I mean, and that's fine, but just acknowledging what that is. Some of it is fear about a lot of other things that I think we'll probably get to. But I'm, I'm interested to see how much of this relates to fear throughout it because that's, you know, we say we don't want to make fear based decisions. Some fear based decisions are actually good, but most of them are not. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting and I think you have to come up with a system. If you're, you know, the business owner, even a manager, supervisor, you're going to, as you bring people into your organization and move them around everything, you're just going to come across people that you just don't connect with or click with. Some you'll just, oh, I don't like that person that much. But Boy, they're really good at this. Or whatever other phones you just will have a. Just really don't like them. And so, you know, I always used to tell my managers, look, you can be friendly and you should be friendly, but you cannot be friends with these people. Once you start managing them, I don't think it's it. And, and I, you know, I'm sure, I know there's some nuance to it, but I don't think you can be friends with them if, Especially if you're signing their paychecks. I don't think it works.

Yeah, you're not friends if you're signing their paychecks. Like, if it's, if it's a side hustle, maybe, maybe. But if it's the thing that, you know, a primary driver of what puts food on the table for that person. This is a business relationship.

Yeah, the power dynamic. The power dynamic, always.

Right.

Yeah. Like I said, you can be friendly, you can hang out, you can have a great time, but just always remember that there's something more there. And don't be disappointed in if you're, you know, trying to be. I, I just seen managers fail because they're just. They're not, they don't. How, how do I say this without sounding like a pompous ass? You have to kind of level up a bit, right. When you're becoming a manager or supervisor or VP or starting your own business. And that level up, that separation is, Is important because you're gonna have to ask people to do things they don't want to do. You're going to have to critique the way they do things. And so you need to have that separation there. That's a good thing, I think. Don't try to be friends.

No, no, it's. I'm trying. There's a thought percolating here. I'll let it percolate. I'll come back to that.

Well, and I think a lot of it is, like, all of us want to be liked. Right. But if you look at the people that are very, very successful, they don't let that stop them. You know, if, if your main focus is on being liked, you're going to have a tough time.

Right? Yeah. That's why there's so many sociopaths in positions of, of power or, or wealth or any of that. Right. Because it's. They just do what they, they, they believe is the right thing for their business without worrying about being liked so much. And, and, and I'm not necessarily singing the praises of sociopathy. I'm just making an observation here. It is, it is not uncommon for, you know, for, for that to happen. So. Yeah. Right.

Another part of it, I've, I've realized when I had someone in my company that I was just, we just butted heads, I couldn't figure it out. And someone, it might have been my wife, who's far more adept at this stuff than I am. And she, I can remember her pulling me aside and say, the reason you don't like them is, is because they are just like you. And I was like, what? You know, that's ridiculous. There's no way. But when I broke down, you know, personality traits and what was going on, and I was like, yeah, they are, they are kind of like me. And it helped me adjust the way I dealt with them and move them into a different position. That, that personality of pushing boundaries, not asking permission, and, and those things suited them better. And so I think you have to be self aware and try to really understand why you dislike them or what it is, identify the problem, you know, is it their personality or is it their performance, their attitude? Or maybe it's something personal that you are just going to have to get over.

Right.

It's going to happen. And I think the first step is really trying to be self aware and not get angry or, you know, frustrated about it, is try to pick it apart and say, why do I feel this way? You know, it's your job as a leader to identify those things and try to put a system in place to, to make them better, not just, you know.

Yeah, and to your wife's point, you know, we, we project, right. There are things that we know about ourselves that we like and there are things that we know about ourselves that we'd like to work on. Right. And when we see these traits, especially the latter in other people, we tend to re. Overreact or react more to those things because really we're projecting, you know, onto ourselves. There's, there's a Dutch phrase I recently heard, I won't say it in Dutch. The innkeeper trusts his guests like he is himself. And it's an interest. You know, that's one of those things I've always found people who are untrustworthy or people who will not extend trust to me are generally untrustworthy themselves. And they're seeing, they're saying, well, that guy's going to screw me just like I would screw me if I were in his shoes. Right. You know, and, and, and I think it extends beyond trust, though. It's, it's lots of things we see in others that which we both do and don't like about ourselves. And, and so it's that you're right. That self awareness of okay, why don't I like this person? And the first question to ask is, are they. Are they just like me? You know, and, and your business may not need more than one of you just like they don't need more than one of any other type of person. Right. Like you don't necessarily want to attract people that are exactly like you because then you won't have a different set of skills and a different set of problem solving methods and all of that. It's good to have people who are different enough. Not terribly different. You got to make it work. But you don't just want a bunch of people yesing you all the time and saying oh yeah, I agree with that. That's exactly what I would have done. Well, crap, I want more ideas, not just affirmations of mine.

That's right. Yeah, exactly. And I also think part of being self aware is to then watch others. How do others interact with this person? Are you the only one that has this problem with this person or is their personality such that you can just see them bristling as they work with other people in your organization? Is this person disruptive throughout or. Or is it just something that rubs you the wrong way that you can focus on? Because if everybody has a problem, that's a different story.

Yes, agreed. There is a slippery slope here though. Be careful not to poison the well. You know, it's one thing to truly observe how you know this person, you know that you don't like interacts with everyone else. It's another thing to go to everyone else and you know, lead the witness. Like don't you seem to have a problem with Tim? You know what I mean? Like because you're the boss, especially in this dynamic. But I mean this can happen in reverse too. You can have a boss that you don't like and that even has. There's a power dynamic in being an employee too. It's not one sided. But yeah, be very careful that you are being objective about your observations in this. We all like to know that we were right and it's easy to let that skew our interpretations or even our methods of going and gathering information and like I said, leading the witness. So it's a slippery slope. Be careful that you're not just setting out to prove yourself right.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a good point. And along that line, you also have to be careful to not let you know your dislike of this person overshadow their benefit. Whether that's to your business, your team, to you personally. You may really have an issue with someone, but their performance is terrific and you don't want to self sabotage this thing because of the personal animosity that you may have or something that may, that may bother you.

Yep.

But so again, just be be aware. What, what are they doing in the organization? How does everyone else look at them? Maybe there's one thing that you can focus on improving, but don't let it slow down their their success within your company.

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Start breaking down barriers and making real progress in your small business with Freelance to Founder. And our thanks to Clay and Preston for doing this swap with us. You know Shannon, I'm thinking about this as we're talking about, you know, dealing with people we dislike on a regular basis and learning to either like them or tolerate them. And this is one of those scenarios where having the experience when you're not the person in power and neither is the other person. So working on a team, and it could be sports or any other kind of team where someone else is clearly in charge, they put the team together, you are stuck with this person, right? As a manager you have the power to say you're out. As an employee you have the power to say I'm out if you can afford to do that. And I suppose that's also true on a, you know, on a, on a team, a sports team or I didn't play on, on sports teams really, but I played in a lot of bands where there was a band director who assembled the band, and then I just have to show up and, you know, play and deal with these people. And I think there's. There's a benefit to that scenario where you are learning to deal with people who are your equals. They aren't your boss, you're not their boss. And some of the, A lot of these skills can be identified there because it's like, well, I want to do this thing. The band director, the coach wants me to do, the boss wants me to do this thing, but the boss also wants that person to do this thing with me. And we've got to figure it out. Now, one, if you really can't figure it out, you can both go to the boss and say, hey, we're having trouble figuring this out. Please help. And as a, you know, as a business owner, that's probably something you're going to have to deal with at some point is to people coming to you that ask for that. But I think being on equal footing with someone is perhaps a good way to learn these kinds of lessons. And it's an opportunity that of course, not everybody gets to have. But if you had that opportunity, think back to that. You know, if you were a kid and you played, you know, sports with other kids, or like me, you played in bands with people, you know, whatever it was, think back to those things and how did you learn to deal with those people? Because I think that's going to be. It takes the power structure out of it. You know, no one has leverage over the other person. You have, you have agency, you can, you can choose not to participate, hopefully. But other than that, that's it. You know, you, you, you walk away. And, and it, you know, I, in those scenarios, and I certainly experienced them, thankfully, nothing overly terrible, but it was okay. Well, you know, I don't like this, like, this person and I will never be friends. And sometimes actually that proves itself false. But, you know, you go into it saying, okay, we are not currently friends. There's nothing that makes me believe we will be friends. But that person is here, and I can see the value that they bring to the team, you know, and that was always my way of looking at it was, okay, that's that. And then I would also ask, what can I learn from them? Like, what if they are bringing value to the team? If I can get myself to the point where I see that if I don't think they're bringing value to the team, then I would have gone to the, you know, the boss coach, band Director, whatever it is, and said, why is this person's in the way? And they're not bringing value. Right. But, you know, assuming that, that they do, and if you don't see it, try and look through someone else's eyes, like the boss, coach, band director, what value do they seem to apply to this person? And can I now see that through their eyes? And then once you can establish what that value is, then go and, and try and, and add that to your talent stack, whatever that is, in whatever way that makes sense. But try to, you know, okay, well, that person's bringing value to the team. I don't like them, but I've got to deal with them, so I might as well get something out of it to use later. What is that? What. What do they have to teach me in this one little thing? That's kind of how I. That's. It's just. It's a way of making lemons, Lemonade out of lemons. Right. You know, like, what's something positive that I can extract from this, even though I really hate dealing with that fricking person, you know, like.

But just the act of doing that could change the dynamic and, and change the relationship 100%.

Well, that's the whole idea. It's a mind hack is really what it is. Yes, it is. Yeah.

And I also like the, the focus on communicating with them more and interacting with them more because you get a chance to learn more about them and maybe there's a reason they act, you know, the way they do, and if you can put it in context, maybe based on their life experience or whatever, something that happened to them. Well, again, that changes the frame of.

That and you start having some empathy, maybe. Yep.

Yes, yes, exactly. And, and that's why I love, you know, I talk about the Friday barbecue all the time and, and however you want to do it. If you can't barbecue, you know, you're in an office building, whatever. But changing the venue and being able to interact at a different level, something more casual. I used to like to go out and walk because I had my dog at work all the time. So I would say, hey, come with me and let's go walk the dog. And I would walk around the business park because it gives you a chance to just talk. And that's maybe what you need to do to cross a bridge or to understand that person better. And maybe they need to do the same with you if they understand where you're coming from a little bit more and your life experiences, maybe they're. Well, they will. There's no maybe about it. They're going to interact with you on a different level. So you may have to embrace that person, which is the opposite of what you want to probably do.

No, it is. And I found killing them with kindness, and that's a phrase, not an actual recommendation. You don't actually want to kill anybody, but. But you can change the vibe. It's like, it. Sometimes I find myself like, okay, I. I gotta. I. I make it a challenge now in my life to melt the ice of as many people as I can. And. And I. I love it because it. It is a challenge. And it sometimes can happen with, like, waitstaff, where they're just, like, super cold. And it's like, all right, this person. I got them, you know, I can melt their ice, you know. Yeah. And. But I do it all kinds. In all kinds of different ways. And often it's me putting something out there first, like, okay, we're not getting along. I don't like you. I don't say this to them generally. That's generally not a good approach to breaking the ice and melting the ice. But it's like, okay, you know, how can I. How can I help you? And what can I do? And sometimes that's just like you said, expressing an interest in them, showing them that you're not as cold as they appear to you because you don't know what's going on in their head. And so just being the one, like, okay, I'm just going to be friendly. Not, like sickly sweet friendly, but friendly. Asking something like, hey, that was pretty cool what you did here. Or that. Can you show me? You did a thing? How did that work? That was really cool. People love to talk about themselves, as evidenced by the fact that Shannon and I are doing this show. Right. But, like, that's. That. That is a way of, like you said, developing empathy. But it. It often involves giving first before you. You start to correct.

Yeah, yeah. You know, change. It's your responsibility. You have to be the leader. Right?

Yeah.

You can't just be, you know, a grumpy boss and get mad because they don't do what you tell them. Right. And so you've got to put yourself out there, try to change things up, to connect with that person on a different level, at least to make the attempt. One of the things that I would also think about is maybe your dislike is the fact that maybe it's their performance that really is the issue. And so if that's a possibility, then maybe, you know, be sure they understand their. What their role is at your. You know, at your company, what. What metrics are used to measure their success, how to approve, improve, all that stuff that maybe they just don't understand. You know, even though you think you have a good onboarding and training program, maybe you need to sit down or your manager needs to sit down with them and work through it. And if they don't understand or maybe they don't fit in that plan yet, they're valuable because they're adding some kind of benefit to your business. Maybe you have to adjust that plan to take advantage of their special skills or the way they learn. Maybe they do things different. And so a lot of that, again, comes down to just to communicating more and figuring out at least you give them the opportunity to act different and give yourself the opportunity to understand them a little bit more. I like it on a different. On a different level.

Yeah.

And on that. Kind of similar to performance, but maybe also their actions. Things that drive me crazy sometimes are the way people communicate and how I'd like it. Okay, if we're setting up a project and we've decided we're going to use Slack, I don't. My expectation is I'm not going to get 50 text messages with plans and this and that and the other thing. We're going to do that in Slack. So you have to tell them that, like, hey, look, this is how, you know, we discussed it. This is how I prefer it. And if you're the manager, supervisor or, you know, you. They're working for you, they need to adapt and do it the way you want. So make sure they understand those things.

Leverage. I just went through this with one of the bands that I play in where it's. I am not the boss of this band. Right. So I don't get to dictate anything. But we had previously used a. Just a private Facebook group for our communication, and it was getting super frustrating. Certainly I was noticing frustration. I was also, and maybe I was projecting, seeing other people's frustration with the fact that we were subject to the whims of the Facebook algorithm. We wouldn't necessarily see everything that was posted in this group. Right. And there were times where I saw something. It was like, well, I can't deal with that right now, but I'll come back and deal with it later. Now, of course, the problem with Facebook is I can't market to go and remind me to do it later like I can in Slack. But it's like, oh, it's in the group. I'll go find it. And then it was like, but I can't see it. Like, I don't. I know it's there, but I don't get to see it. Sometimes it doesn't show you everybody's comments because it's, you know, it's not about. Facebook's not built for that. Yeah. And. And we had tried Slack with this band once before and a couple of people were just like, wow, Facebook works. But why change. I get it. Change resistance. Like it's. There is an efficiency to being change resistant at some level. And finally I was like, okay, hey guys, look, this isn't working. You know, can we just commit to trying Slack for two weeks, please? And this was definitely managing sideways. There was no, I'm dictating this. This was a, A request. And I had no more authority than, than to make the request. You know, that was it. Like any of us could. And they did. They were like, yeah, okay. I mean, we respect each other. It's. It's, you know, we plan a band together, so it's fine. And everybody's like, yeah, okay, I'll try it. And then sure enough that it's like, you know, I said, just try it for two weeks. Which. And I didn't know. Well, it was sort of a trick, but also just sort of. I knew that this was the most. And if it worked, if the experiment succeeded, it was probably the most honest two week experiment I've ever done because I knew going in that I did not have the ability to dictate that it was going to be permanent. It was the best I could do was to make the Slack experience as smooth and seamless and productive as possible. So that we didn't want to leave after two weeks. Right. That became the norm and we weren't going to shift back. And it's probably been six or eight now, but that's great. Yeah. But, you know, managing that way too. And just like, like you said with the communication methods, you know, and just ask people to try for two weeks. It's so much easier than just saying, you know, laying down the law and saying this is how it will be done. You know, try for two weeks. Just try it with two weeks. Yeah.

Yeah.

If it's not working, let's talk about it. Yeah.

Figure something else out that's good.

Yeah.

So I'll leave you with one of the last. The tips I have, but it could be the most powerful and that is to identify what each person is good at, what is their top skill, and focus on that. Because if you help somebody build success, it's one more thing that changes the framework of your relationship. Their attitude, you know, and if they feel good about what they're achieving, even if it's something more minor, you know, if maybe it's a, they've had somebody that you, you know, entry level person that's had a hard time getting to work on time and all of a sudden they've started improving. And you, you recognize that could be anything. Sure. The way they interact with, with customers, whatever, help someone. Because they may never have had anybody focus on what they're good at.

Right.

They could have don't know what their background is. So by focusing on what someone is good at, it can change their behavior a lot and in turn it changes your behavior towards them and it can really flip the whole dynamic around and they can become, you know, just dislike or problem or whatever you had. It can, it can go right out the window. It really works well.

And yeah, has the added benefit of, and perhaps side effect, I'll say, of, of being one of those brain hacks for yourself. Because if you identify what someone's good at and you tell them that like, wow, you're really great at this, you know, let's have you do more of it or show me how you're doing this. Whatever. You've now set yourself up to be proven right. And we all like to be proven right. And now this person you don't like is about to prove you right by being good at the thing that you told them they were good at. Now they might have known they were good at that coming in, but you've acknowledged it. That's a nice thing to do for them, but it also buys you into that. Now it's not, oh, I resent this person for being kind of a jackass to deal with, but they're really good at that. Now you're on board with the part they're good at and it's just a brain hack. But trust me on this, it works. Sometimes to melt the ice, you've got to be warmer and it helps.

Yeah, it really is. You know, you have to own it as a leader. It's your problem. It's it, if, if the employee fails, it's your fault because you either hired the wrong person or they didn't get trained. Right. I mean, you have to be accountable for it, so.

Or you didn't let them go fast enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

You want to be self aware. You know, is this, is it my problem? Whatever it is, you know, keep things positive, develop a plan, communicate really well with them, focus on what they do good at and you can really overcome this dislike issue. So we, and we'd love to hear about, you know, things that you've gone through and tips that you have on this topic. FeedbackUsBrain Show Please let us know so we can share it here with everybody else.

Indeed. Like he said, Feedback. BusinessBrain Show. Visit Shopify.com SBS to check out that trial. And do me a favor, would you keep living that charmed life. We'll see you next week.