Working With Your Spouse

Business Brain, episode 482 for Casual Friday, September 8, 2023. Greetings, folks, and welcome to Business Brain, the show where we take your ideas, our ideas, we analyze them together to tune our business brains and. And that way we can all keep on living that charmed life. Sponsors for this episode include fast growing trees.com businessbrain, where you get to save 15% off your entire order from this fantastic business. Only now through October 15th. So you got to get on this. Plus, fall is planting season anyway, so you want to get on this. We'll talk more in depth about that in a little bit. For now, here in Durham, New Hampshire, I'm Dave Hamilton.

Happy Friday from California. How you doing?

I'm good. Is it Casual Friday or is it Causal Friday? Right. If we move those letters around, are we, are we able to be more productive? I don't know, man.

Yeah, good point. I like the casual.

I like the. I do like the casual.

That's good.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've been, I've been talking about this concept of no Phone Friday for a long time. I haven't been able to do it.

Yet, but I'm okay.

I'm still building towards it, but I've got to convince a few people in my life.

Yeah, I wonder about that. There was, there was one Friday recently where I like, texted you something in Slack and I'm like, oh, I won't hear from him today because, because it's, it's no Phone Friday. And, and like, sure enough, like it, it was, it was a longer than usual response time. Now you might have been driving or you might have been in the middle of something, but I was like, oh, he's succeeding. This is great.

Yeah, well, you could do it on your computer, right? Because I go, I'm still going to work. So you come into your computer and you have Slack and yes, of course messages and stuff and you can answer there, but just not having it in your pocket the whole time.

So, you know, I, I use the, the focus modes that Apple has on the iPhones now. And I have one that I call nuclear and it's only, only my family can get through to me. So my, my wife, my two kids, and now of course my niece because she lives with us. So it is four people plus me in that group and nothing else gets through, no notifications from anything else. And I, I will use that. Like, you know, I mentioned we kind of sort of wound up taking a staycation this past weekend. I was in nuclear mode most of the weekend and it really, it makes a difference because I can go and choose to look at my notifications, but they don't interrupt me. Yeah, it's great.

Okay, that's cool. Very cool.

We got an email from David here after we did episode 480 on imposter syndrome. And he says about that episode, I just learned that I struggle with imposter syndrome to some extent from listening. He says, the business that I own thrived in an area that I did not really expect. This was waste management services. I am an environmental engineer and in full time employment. While running the business on the side, I've had the urge to separate the business so that waste management is registered under a different name and leave the actual management duties to my team while I work on yet another undertaking. The other source of the imposter syndrome feeling would be about my financial worth of my business. The there's a level I want to be at where my team gets salaries above industry average and not the minimum. And a level where I can confidently say that I am leaving formal employment to build my business. Not paying my employees salaries that I want makes me feel like I am not doing a respectable job as a business owner. Nonetheless, my takeaway from the discussion is I must own it and develop a positive business outlook. He then also has a question about managing how to manage business as husband and wife, which we'll talk about in a little bit. But I want to do this, this imposter syndrome thing first. Yeah, yeah. I never, I had never realized that this version of imposter syndrome exists. I have experienced it. David, you are not alone. Like, not being able to pay. Like, whenever I go to hire somebody, I. That's when I feel imposter syndrome the worst. You know, we just talked in the last episode about hiring your first employee. I wish we had thought about this email before that because I would like. Well, it's fine. We just add to the conversation. That's why you subscribe to the show, right? You are subscribed to the show, right, folks? That way you get the whole conversation because this is an extension of that in some ways because, you know, you think, all right, I'm ready to hire somebody. I need somebody. I can really only afford to pay X. Oh, gosh, somebody that's. That the person I need isn't gonna be willing to work for X. They're gonna think I'm a failure. Like, you're gonna convince yourself of all this stuff before you ever even post about the job, let alone interview someone. Right? So, yeah, it's.

It's the, the one thing I would say to David is I think he's done a great job of changing the framework of imposter syndrome. And instead of it being in front of him, holding him back, he's actually got it shifted the frame so it's behind him, kind of pushing him forward. And, and what I mean by that is num. Number one, he's self aware. And I would say, you know, he's talking about splitting the business off so he can go do something else and let people take over and being concerned about, you know, wanting to pay his people more. Those are great traits. I mean, that's a positive aspect.

Yeah.

Imposter syndrome.

So that, that, yeah, but it will, but it will hold you back. Like you gotta, you gotta manage the negative parts of that. It's not entirely positive, but yeah, it shows that you're, that's where, yeah, you're moving forward.

At the end here, he says I have to own it. I have to develop a positive business outlook that, you know, you're, you're, you're more than halfway there. Because all I just really been thinking about a lot lately of the kind of anxieties that we face as business owners. And this financial one is definitely, oh.

It'S a huge one, a huge part. And go ahead.

Taking it and, and being self aware enough to use it as a motivator is really a great way to try to turn it into something positive.

Yeah. In terms of hiring people, because I like, I experienced this pretty much every time I hire somebody and many times when I decide not to hire somebody to. In fact, it certainly, I'm sure it has been the reason I have chosen not to expand the team at times. Right. Because I can't. Like people are going to laugh at me when I tell them this. I don't want them to laugh at me, you know, one way. And perhaps this is the reason I have adopted this practice. I never really thought about it now, but I, whenever I'm hiring for a position, I turn things upside down from what I have experienced as the traditional thing, the tradition being you talk to someone about a job, you find they're the right person, then you start talking about salary. Right. And to me that is just fraught with opportunities to waste everybody's time. Because if I'm not going to be able to pay you or even offer you a salary that you want, then why should we be talking like it's a waste of time for both of us?

Everybody.

Yeah. And so I start with it at the very Beginning thing. And, and if it makes sense to put it in the job posting, I will. But if not, I certainly have the conversation about salary right up front. And I don't. That is one of the few places where I don't play the negotiation game of, you know, he who speaks first about it loses. It's like, no, if we're going to be, you know, if we're going to be offering, you know, $35,000 a year for this position, whatever it is, it's like, I'm going to tell you that, like, and our salary range is right in that 35k a year range. Does that work for you? Yeah, you know, and if not, tell me what does. Like, if you're like, well, I really would need a minimum of 42. Okay, great, I'm going to mark that down. And that's now going to factor into my decision here. If I really like you and, and you are that person that's like the, you know, what did we say in the last epic episode? The. The generalist who is super talented. Okay, maybe I can carve some extra money out because going from 35 to 42 isn't a huge deal. If you tell me, Well, I need 75. Okay, awesome. Let me let you go so you can pursue opportunities that are more in line with what you need. Like, you know.

Yeah, and that's. Yeah, yeah, we used to do the same thing. We, we put a questionnaire out and say, hey, fill this out before you even contact us. Number one. That was a test to see whether they would follow instructions.

Yes.

But one of the questions on there is like, what salary range are you looking for? You know, and try to, let's, let's try to figure this out and just give us a range. It doesn't mean, you know, that it's too low, too high, because we already have an idea and I like to do the same thing. It's like, look, this position, this is a salary range and based on experience and, you know, if we really love, you know, interacting with you and the meeting is great and looks good, well, we probably pay at the high end of that. Right? You know, that scale.

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I love this topic. You know, we, we. It's been seven years since we've done a show about working with your spouse.

Yeah.

Episode 94. So since we're both married, I'm going to go ahead and just say we're experts in this topic, and we're still.

Married seven years later, and we still work with our spouses. So, yes, I would, I would say whether we think we're experts in this topic or not, we would qualify in many other people's eyes, even though we feel like imposters. There you go.

So I, I, I think that, you know, I, I use this, I say this all the time. The right spouse is a force multiplier in the sense of everything you do in your business because they look at things differently, they bring a different skill set, and they certainly think about the business on another level than a, you know, standard employee.

Yeah.

A few things that, that I found work for me is one I, I've always enjoyed when we work in different departments and that we're not directly managing one another.

Right.

I think that that autonomy has made it very successful. If, you know, when Renee is running the back office or taking over certain projects and she runs, like, now she runs our, our real estate business.

Yep.

And I work for her in that business.

Sure.

So my whole concept is that I'm not, I'm not the business owner and she's my wife helping me. No, that she's the expert. She's learned it, developed it. She tells, you know, hey, let's do this. Want to do this thing. So I'm working for her that way.

Yeah.

On the other side, I do that.

We do that with Backbeat, too. Lisa runs our whole, like, client service and podcaster relations area. And I always tell her, you know, it's like, well, what do you think we should do here? And she's like, well, you know, you, you know, it's your business. I'm like, oh, well, yeah. But like, I don't know this part of this business as well as you do. Economy. Yeah. So you tell me and, or just do it. And it, I mean, it's like with any, with anybody that you trust in your business, you got to give them that autonomy. And if they screw something, if they do something that you would not have chosen to do, then you stop. And the first thing I ask is, wait a minute. Even though I didn't, I wouldn't have chosen this same thing. Is what they chose as good as or better than what I would have done? And if the answer is yes to either of those questions, well, then obviously that's a win because you didn't have to do the work and somebody else did it. But even if they screw it up in a way that actually causes objective, you know, harm to the business, it's not going to be that bad. Like, there's, there's. It's better to just let people do their thing and give because otherwise you can't make mistakes. You gotta make. I made them. I still make.

I make them all the time.

Correct.

So you, you, you have to just like we've talked about this on the show, about managing, you know, working with employees and, and understanding what they make mistakes and backing them up so they learn. It's the same thing with both of your spouse. And having that respectful conversation, I think, is, Is critical. And if you're working with your spouse and you're at work and there's a bunch of employees around, I think you really have to have the discussion before you do that about, hey, our personal life is going to be separate, and we're not going to have the discussions out in front of everybody about stuff that's going on in our personal life. Just like maybe when you go home, you want to take a break and, and not talk about work for a while. That's, I think, harder to do. But I think that separation is real important because you want the people around you to look at you in a different light than just, oh, that's the boss's wife or the boss's husband, and they just do the books or whatever you want them to be. That autonomy. When someone would come ask me, I'd say, you need to go check with Renee. She runs that part of the business. I don't know, you know, and then she would do the same for me. So I think that separation and keeping things separate is important.

Yes. Yeah. You gotta have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, yeah. I mean, in a sense, that's important with every employee. But you're right, like, especially when it's someone that you presumably live with and, and you've got to share the rest of your life with. It's good to have the business sort of have those, you know, those guards.

If you're working and it's just you two, that's a different type of thing. You're gonna, you know, talk about personal stuff all the time. You know, hey, I'm gonna go do this. I'm gonna pick up this or whatever. It's. It's diff. That's a different situation. But when you have employees in your team around you, you, you want them to Think of you each as, you know, whatever level they're at. Supervisor, vp, or this kind of thing. Not just the boss's wife or the boss's husband.

Yeah, no, right. It needs to be. Yes, that's absolutely right. It needs to not just be, oh, crap, it's the boss's spouse. It's like, no, this is a person with a position in the company that has.

Yep.

Real.

That's right.

A real job and real power and. And. And autonomy. Absolutely.

They would be here if they were your spouse or not.

Or not. Yes. Yes. Right.

Yes. That's what everybody needs to get on board with. And, you know, I never planned to work with my spouse. It was only when I was starting a new business and I had an outside investor who knew my wife and said, okay, I'll do this deal, but one of the requirements is that Renee has to come work for the company. And I was like, what? I was like, how is that important? You know? And he's like, well, no one manages your money better than your spouse.

Yeah.

And he was right. And so, you know, taking care of all this stuff. And it was right when we started getting into the credit card points and all the affinity things that we benefited so much from. So she managed that stuff so well that I don't have that skill set. You know, I just am not that kind of detail person. And she nailed it. And this guy Jay, he saw it was my partner. He saw it. He goes, you need somebody to do this kind of stuff. And. And it's been great. Yes. There are times when you struggle just like with any person you work with, though.

Right.

And so you have to take that step back. And there's a little more nuance, I think, required sometimes before you react to something that maybe you're not happy with, or like you said earlier, Dave, oh, this is a mistake. Or you got to think about it, because there is some extra baggage there that you. You may have to work through.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

But I think it's great. I think even, you know, like David said, he's especially newlyweds. Just make sure you. You both are bringing something to the table that is valuable to the business. Like that point. Don't. Don't hire your spouse, husband, or wife just to give them some work.

Oh, no. You might. You might be in a scenario where it is the best decision financially, you know, if the business is able to support the two of you, but maybe not support the two of you and another person, you know, depending on how your home finances are. Like, you may be financially persuaded to hire your spouse because you, because that's just the, the most the business can afford at that moment. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that happens all the time. But make sure you both have stuff to do that's actually valuable to the business. Yeah. Don't do it the other way where it's like, well, you have nothing to do. Come work for me. Oh, no, no, no, no.

And it could be anything. You could be running the warehouse or shipping boxes. You know, it doesn't matter.

It.

But make sure it's, you know, hey, come and maybe you don't know until they get in there and start to kind of feel the way around, but they got to find something.

Yeah.

Gotta find something.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah. Thanks for hanging out with us, folks. Thank you to David today and Robert the other day for sending in your emails to feedback at BusinessBrain Show. Remember when you send an email in, if we feature it on the show and you know, we asked last week to start submitting or last episode to start submitting your ideas for that list of sort of menial, not menial, that list of inconsequential things to do because nothing is inconsequential when you don't have something else to do. If we feature, if you just send in one item and we put it on the list, we're going to feature the list on the show. Your email gets featured, therefore you are added to our drawing that we're doing this year for a MacBook Air like.

And try.

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