Mindset Matters | Lawlytics COO, Anita Malik (Podcast 226)

We've gotten into that vibe. You've got to get into it for it to work. Let's have the vision, the long term plan, the six month goals. Let's do that as COO and CEO while I run the day to day. And there's those shifts that happen that are a little bit more in the weeds, but they're still happening.

Our guest today is the COO of Lawlytics, Anita Malik. Anita has over 15 years of experience leading operations, marketing and product development at a number of startup organizations and also at Arizona State University where she served as Deputy Director for the school's Business Journalism Institute. Her operational excellence and digital background have helped her lead two Arizona startups through successful acquisitions as COO at clearvoice and COO at lawlytics. Anita is also passionate about creating communities for social change. She did this as founder and editor of east west magazine, a nationally acclaimed print and online publication focused on the Asian American experience. She she was the recurring Segment guest on NPR's Tell Me More with the editors of Latina, Essence and others to discuss our country's changing demographic and the untold stories. More recently, Anita built Digital Communities for change as a 2018 nominee for Congress. She's also a board member for Moms in Office and the National Council for Jewish women, Arizona. Her most important role though is a mom to 8 year old Wade and 7 year old Avery and the fur baby Marky. Anita, welcome to the Second Command podcast.

Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, really looking forward to, to talking to you about this. And I'm going to jump right into the most important thing first because it was something that kind of dawned on me. We're doing this interview right now at 6:30 in the morning, Arizona time. You have an 8 year old and a 7 year old that are no doubt sleeping and probably going to wake up at some point. And you're CEO of a business and you're running teams globally. How the hell do you juggle it.

All seems so cliche and so just like of course she's going to say that, but it's the truth is just being organized. It's really about understanding. Okay, so like I got up this morning, you know, I often do calls at this time. We are like you mentioned, a global team. So we have teams in India, we have, we are owned by an Australian company. So time zones are kind of a battle. But I often am up early and I know, okay, a child might get up during a meeting. So what do I need to do to prep for that child to be able to like be self sufficient to get breakfast going. So I kind of do that prep, cut some fruit, put some vitamins out, you know, I mean whatever it is I've just gotten, you get into those routines and you learn to adapt. I think that's one of the biggest things for any COO is really being flexible because things are shifting all the time. I've been a CEO, particularly with startups. I love startups. And so you know how fast moving those are and things change every day. So you've got to be flexible and adaptable in all areas of your life. I think to make it work.

You're right that everything does kind of change, especially in that startup environment. How many employees now do you have in Lawlytics?

We're at about 65 right now. So we've kind of grown from, you know, when I started we were probably just under 30. And we've really increased on the product and engineering side.

You're at a stage now in a business cycle where the employees are joining a real business. They're expecting us to have the systems and some of the processes in place. And sometimes some of these employees aren't that adaptable to change. They're not as flexible. They're expecting stuff to be going down in that straight line. How do you work with them on that and how do you help employees understand the need to adapt and be flexible?

To me, that's a core of the hiring process to really start. I've really developed a hiring process within the organization where they people go tiers of levels of interviews so they get to really obviously the managers are comfortable with them, but they get to meet the team members and then I have the final conversation usually to kind of have a gut check. But for me it's really just exactly what you said is I make sure they understand that I look at those traits. I think doing this for so long I've been able to recognize who can truly adapt to a startup environment. Because yes, we may seem to the outsider because we were acquired and we have this big company, global company, as our parent company, that it's no longer a startup, that it's a little bit more corporate and all that. Not true. And so I'm still looking for that personality that I think can truly be flexible and adaptable and understands change. And we really make that clear throughout the process. Something I've done with my team across the board really is people get change fatigue. And I noticed over the last year we were really changing things a ton of agenda Items I want to get done things I know that will prove the efficiency and scale availability. But I take these intentional pauses in that because you can start to see it build up also help the new hire. So they see that there's a flow here that we're not constantly going to change your every day.

That's especially true in that entrepreneurial environment. Is your, the CEO, are they pretty entrepreneurial as well in terms of, you know, the flavor of the month or the flavor of the week?

Yeah, you know, I think in both times I've been a CEO, both CEOs and I had co CEOs at Clearvoice. So too in startups it really is that entrepreneurial mindset. Right. It's a founder that came in that really was like, I'm going to create something and then they, they're really the CEO of a growing company. And so I think that essence of being a startup founder, bootstrapping, all that and you know, changing and trying to see what the market's doing today versus the next day, I think that sticks. You don't really lose that Currently we've gotten into that vibe and you get, you've got to get into it for it to work where, okay, let's have the vision, the long term plan, the six month goals. You know, let's do that as COO and CEO while I run the day to day. And there's those shifts that happen that are a little bit more in the weeds, but they're still happening.

Walk us through what your traditional recruiting and hiring process or recruiting, interviewing and hiring process would be.

Yeah, I think it's really important at every level, no matter who's coming in and for what, that there's some kind of assessment, so to speak. I don't want to call it a test really. We do a normal phone screen. That's our first step. We have somebody, you know, from our team do and the operations team do a phone screen. Just make sure that there's no red flags. We don't look at resumes in the traditional sense because a lot of our roles there are people that come from different backgrounds. You know, we're in a time of the great resignation or in a time of people switching careers. And so we're really looking at skill sets and not oh, you've done this job before. And so we look at that, do the phone screen. Then they get an assessment. To me that's important that the assessment's done before they start to meet the team. We are a busy group and so it's really important. So then they come in and they meet with a couple different people. So they'll meet with the manager of that team as well as somebody either that's above, you know, that manager or at the peer level just to get another gut check. If they're all happy and we want to move this person forward, it goes to the actual team members. So if they're coming in for the customer support team or the onboarding team, they'll meet members of that team, which I think a lot of companies bypass because they're afraid of what could be said or, you know, there's a lot of different things I've heard over the years and don't do that. But to me it's really important because everybody needs to field good culturally that there's a cultural fit there. And then I'll do a gut check. If everybody's like, yes, this is the.

Person I like that the team actually doing the round of interviews. I also think it probably creates a little bit more buy in and collaboration in the onboarding process as well. It's like, well, you interviewed them and you like them then so help make sure they're successful, right? There's got to be a bit of a. Does that help? Does that happen?

It really does because we really, we're still so small in, in so many ways that we really count on everybody to help with those training initiatives in the beginning. So, you know, they'll have a two to three training plan and every member of that team is asked to do something to help this person along to have one piece of their training. So it's really important that they've already feel like I'm 100% on board with this candidate coming in because I'm going to spend my, my precious time helping them get up to speed. So yeah, it makes a big difference.

All right. Now you changed your career or changed your companies in the middle of COVID What the hell were you thinking? Like at least joined lolitics in the.

Middle of COVID I did, yeah. You read my book intro or my bio there. I ran for Congress in the middle there two cycles. And so kind of when I was done with that, actually came across the, through a contact through actually someone that supported the campaign, someone that's in the VC angel community here in Arizona was like, you know, this company really needs a coo. Let's, you know, get you connected. And so I think starting in the middle of COVID was interesting. I was like, I don't know what the future holds right here I am in kind of in this gap in my career. So I was having the conversation thinking, you know, we'll all be back in offices at some point. I've got to kind of get there, start having these conversations. And then when I started, right, it was all remote. To this day, I've not met most of the employees. I never met my CEO for about six months after I joined. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking, but I was terrified by that. I was terrified that how am I. What I feel like I'm very good at as a coo, and why I kind of end up in this position always is building teams and a culture that is really team centric and not individual centric. So that helps the mission of the company. And I'm like, I don't know how to do that remote. It really stressed me out. I think I also had to prove something walking into this company who had. Everybody had been kind of doing their thing and feeling good about it. So why is she suddenly coming in to change things? Right. I think they were afraid of that change. Some of the core employees that had been with our CEO for, you know, six, seven years.

Yeah.

So the two together, it was just really daunting. I will admit it. I don't often get afraid of things, but I was like, it's a challenge. I can do it. But it was. It was daunting.

So there's lots that's been talked about that kind of in the first 90 days, what the role is when you're coming in as a senior officer in the first 90 days, and how you don't really want to upset the apple cart. But all of that was written in the pre Covid kind of coming into an office environment, spending time with people, going for lunch and coffees with people, like, just getting to know each other. That didn't happen. Like, so. So how did you do that and what were you cognizantly doing to get yourself onboarded in a good way?

I really made sure that I connected with everyone. And I know that sounds so simple, but it was really something that I did consistently over the first year with the company. So that every person in the company. It takes a lot of time, really got to get to know me. But then I also took what I thought was, you know, they had different types of team meetings and group meetings. And I noticed that the company seemed fragmented. Like, this team was over here, the other team was on the other side. They weren't really communicating in a way that was good for the company or the customer. But they were all in ops. And so I started to bring those together. I started to add some get to know you type exercises to my like OPS meetings which were like everybody now in the company does a TED Talk at some point in an OPS meeting. And it's just been something that I think has gotten people to come together. So that was really me trying to build the team as far as their trust in me and their belief. You know, I had somebody, I had one person about a six month session and said I've learned so much from you because when you came in I thought she's just a politician, what can she do? And that was really hard to hear. But I understood it like if I was in their shoes, they didn't know much about me. We never met in person. And so building the trust with them was really just I had to do the work. I came in and probably a couple months after they had their first product release that they've had in years and everybody was freaking out about how we're going to handle it and this and that. And I just kind of said this is what we're going to do, it's going to be great. And there were so we built so much excitement around it that that was kind of. It chipped away a little at that she doesn't know what she's doing or who is she type of thing. And then I started to roll out process improvements, I started to roll out support services for our customers and I did those all in a very methodical way in terms of not overloading the team. So everything was tested, they were involved in the process, which I think is key. I made sure everybody's voice was heard. And then it, you know, it just kind of through all that you build that trust and that understanding that I'm not here to, to make your lives miserable, I'm here to actually improve it for everybody.

What about the group were vying for your job that then got to report to you?

How did you know that?

It happens at every mid sized company for the first time where the CEO is now really for the first time, hiring from the outside versus promoting from within. Right.

And that was a new experience for me because you know, my previous role as CEO, I really helped them. We were an agency. I helped them rebrand and build that. And so I was. There wasn't somebody else. Right. That was challenging. There definitely was that it really the same thing. It did take longer though with those individuals to really prove out. But I think it's very simple. But listening goes a Long way and being able to kind of share transparency back. So, you know, if you're somebody that wants to be in my position and you feel suddenly cut out of everything, you know, true or not, that's the emotion that person will feel that now. Well, I'm just not important. Learning how each person works, giving them those responsibilities, you know, delegating I think is so important in this role and something that I'm still always teaching myself. It's easy to hold everything, but I think that two way communic listening, understanding their concerns, making sure again people's voices are heard, it really does make a difference. It doesn't happen overnight. I don't want to make it sound like so easy, but you have to keep at it. I think the minute you walk away from that line and you start to say, okay, this isn't working, I'm just going to go do my own thing and not worry about it, it falls apart very quickly.

Delegation is one of the 12 modules in my invest in your leaders course. And I've always been really keen on teaching people that. So what are your systems around delegation to ensure that you get back the result you're looking for and your team feel like they're being led in the right way? Can you give us some of your thoughts around delegation?

Like I mentioned, it's something that I'm always teaching myself. I will say I'm definitely a type A personality. I'm a perfectionist. It's hard for me to delegate. I do it, but it's definitely something I have to think through. If I had a system, what I'd say it really has boiled down to is getting people to communicate what they're interested in doing. So for example, I also run the marketing team. It's just three of us and so we go through everything that needs to be done. Long term, just that week, the short term. And I really kind of tried to see where people's interests lie first because I think if I'm just handing stuff out, like you're going to do this, you're going to do that and sometimes you have to do that. But if ideal situation, what's your interest? We have all these projects going on. Who's going to take what and let them come to the table with, with volunteering, okay, I'm gonna, I really want to do that or I want to help write that email. And I've noticed that that works because then they're going to do a better job. Then I'm not going to feel as much like, oh no, I have to go fix things. And they always, I'm there to support them and I'm there to review things and look at things. So for me, it's really become that what are you interested in and what are you going to step up to the plate to do? Obviously, I also just assign things.

What you're talking about is core in a concept called situational leadership. It's actually one of the other concepts in the course. But situational leadership and delegation are tied so closely that if somebody's not into working on a project, like if they're not excited about it, don't give it to them. Right. Because you're almost pushing rope at that point. So Parkinson's law says that work expands to fill the space that we give it. So when we delegate a project to people, we have to tell them how little time we actually want them to spend on it, not how little time we think it'll take them, but how little time we want them to spend. Very similar to how little money we want them to spend. Right. If I said to my assistant, hey, can you organize a dinner for six of us when I'm in Scottsdale? She could book us off at Bad Ox Ocean Club or something and have this crazy dinner and have all the wines being decanted. But what I really meant was, can you book Uber Eats for six of us and we'll eat at my suite at the Royal Palms and we're gonna have a working dinner. I didn't delegate clearly and I also didn't give her budget. I think that's important that when we delegate, we do that as well as what you're talking about is, you know, considering that people are, they're into it or not. You mentioned the co CEO part in working with co CEOs. What was that like and how did you balance? I mean, it's hard enough working with one CEO or especially an entrepreneurial CEO. How was it working with two?

Definitely a challenge. And I don't think early on I understood the difference. That was what was key was, as I found out, really who was passionate about what area of the business. It made it easier for me to navigate. So, you know, one was really passionate about the sales side and kind of the day to day operations. The other one was all about marketing and messaging and that type of big decisions. They were in that room together with me and making them. So it was always kind of this like, who's going to take it, which direction? And being able to then take my concerns to the right place was important. But yeah, it's definitely challenging and I think understanding their relationship because they had their own co CEO as you can imagine. Like, it's not perfect. There's definitely that back and forth and those struggles and being in the midst of that a lot of times often put me in a position just trying to get an answer from the comedy perspective, just being like, yeah, so what are we? Yes or no? Did we decide right? And just kind of letting them, you know, debate it out often. So it was frustrating because I didn't think my voice as much as now was heard because it was three of us versus the two. Really having that conversation got a lot done. It was just I had to be a little bit more sneaky about it. I don't know if that's the right word, but you know, really had to try to get in there with like, can we make a decision? You know, it boil it down in some ways.

It's not unlike the CEO COO relationship at times. For a lot of our direct reports where our direct reports want an answer and they go to mom and they go to dad, right? Like hey mom, can I have a cookie? Hey dad, what'd your mom say? Like our kids play us off and I think sometimes our employees do as well where they know they're going to get a yes or they're. Or they know they need a different opinion when they've already gotten one. How do you play out that with your team where there is something that is absolutely within your span of control or your responsibility and you do could really make the final say, but they go to the CEO. How do you deal with that?

We've I think done a great job with that at Lytics just because we've had that conversation. The thing I love my current position with CEO and I really got into a really transparent relationship where we can talk about these things. It's really about both of us growing in our roles and that's kind of how we've positioned it. That's been my concern always from the beginning, particularly coming in as somebody that again, they're like, who is this person? Why is she coming in? You know, all those things. I want her job, whatever those those issues may have been. And so we've talked about that and, and he's not involved for several reasons, but that's one of them in that the day to day. And so people don't anymore after about six months of being on the job, they don't go to him. They understand that I'm moving those pieces. I'm Making those decisions. I do obviously go to him with certain things. They don't feel that they need to go to the top top. They feel like they can get their job done with me. And that just makes it so much easier and cleaner so that him and I have those conversations. If he has a concern, I'll bring it to the team. That type of thing.

It does take a little bit of time to kind of social that, but once they're used to it, they're used to it, right?

Yeah, exactly.

In terms of the global team that you've got. Right. Or actually just tell us a little bit more about lawletics. What's the core of what your business does and who are your customers and you know, what's an ideal customer for you? And then I want to go into some of your team and the organization itself.

So lawlytics, we create or the kind of the foundation of a small law firm's digital marketing. So we create the website and it's really the website, but it's a hub. We have our own proprietary platform that was designed specifically, specifically for attorneys. And again, those solo or small law firm practices. So, you know, three to five lawyers, oftentimes there's just the one trying to go out and hang their shingle and really start their own business. And so it's really about empowering these small business owners that are attorneys to not get overcharged for their marketing, to not lose control of their marketing and have to kind of constantly be waiting on an agency, that type of thing, to really give them the tools to do it themselves.

It's funny, I. So I run an organization called the COO alliance, and two of our members are big in the marketing space for law firms, which is. I just didn't realize the industry was that big. So one of them is called Hennessy Digital, and they're an SEO shop that just does SEO for personal injury lawyers. And the other one is called SMB and it's Bill Hauser's group, but he teaches them more on the business and the operations side of things. Is it classic kind of these domain experts like doctors and engineers and dentists and lawyers are really good at what they do, but they really suck at running a business. I don't mean seen it as a negative either, but it seems. It seems like there's a big industry to help them.

There is. And I think particularly on the tech side. Right. They didn't go to school for that. They went to school to do this specialty and they want to focus on that specialty and that's better for their business too. What often and why our CEO Dan Jaffe started this company was that he's an attorney and he felt like you see that often that if you don't understand what's happening in the digital marketing space and the tech behind it, it's easy for someone to say, hey, this is what you need to do and you know, you're overpaying and all that type of stuff. So he really wanted to see when you're for these smaller firms, they don't have those kind of budgets. He really wanted to be able to provide something at a cost point that made sense and that did everything they needed to do so they wouldn't get in those positions.

You said you've got a global team. What's the kind of core makeup of Lawlytics? How many are North America based? How many are global and what are each of the groups doing and. Or is it mixed?

It's a little bit mixed. We are owned by an Australian legal tech company, the largest in the world. Really owns a good chunk of legal tech. We don't have direct team members in Australia, so we interact with them. We interact with our sister companies who are all across the world as well. And then our team, in terms of Corelytics employees, we're about half and half with the US and then India. So a lot of our product and engineering is in India and then we have some product in engineering in the US as well.

And any complexities with dealing with the India group? I mean, it feels. It feels truly like the world is flat and we're now dealing with employees in all these different groups. What's the secret to working with teams in India and how's it going?

I don't know the secret, but it's going great. It's been that way since I joined. You know, we've just scaled that team up considerably. But if you get over the time zone issues and you can adjust to that, now we have members of our US Team that are on the east coast and it works great. And so it's worked out well that a lot of my product people in the US are east coast and so they have a great, you know, working relationship. And you're right, it is flat. You know, with slack and with all these other tools, it really doesn't feel like they're anywhere different. We've not had that struggle. You know, I think there's some cultural things which happens no matter what when you're in like that global situation that we've had to overcome and really understand how they're absorbing information from us. You know, if somebody on the US team puts in a ticket for something, making sure that we're very clear about what it is and that they. And we understand that you don't have to do it just because we put it in there. Right. Like we need to talk about it, that kind of thing. And so that was really process based. Yeah. It's not been. It's not been challenging really, that I can think of.

What's the cost savings if you're hiring an engineer in India versus an engineer in Middle America? What's the. Is it 50%?

Yeah, I'd say roughly. Roughly. That just like everywhere else India is going through that kind of. That people move, the market's great. It's not as much as people would think. It's just for us, it was really talent. I mean, you know, this is a group that we worked with before they were employees separately as like consultants to the engineering team, that kind of thing. It was really something that they understand that what we're doing here and that talent's really important.

One of our co alliance members said they've got, I think 70 or 80% of their employees are in Bulgaria and Romania and Latvia or something.

Something.

They said that it's about 30 to 40% cheaper, maybe 50% cheaper. But they pay more than market. They pay about 15% more than they should or could. So that the employees in that market feel so loyal. It's like, wow, you're like they're going around all their friends like what? Like, how are you getting paid? That and it's almost like they're working for PayPal in San Francisco when they're not.

Right.

We have to now in a way because we're also competing against the Bay Area. Right. The Bay Area is now hiring talent globally, not just in the Bay Area.

Exactly. Yeah. It's been really important to us to make sure that we're not undercutting anyone, both anywhere really here or over there. And people feel like there's loyalty. One of the things I'm so proud of since I've been CEO and I'm afraid to actually it out loud because I don't jinx myself. I haven't lost an employee. I haven't had someone leave even during this time. So that's really.

That's really, really important, especially during what's. What's being called a great resignation. So what do you think your secret is? What's working?

I think it's really that alignment. So I think if you can align teams to really feel like they each are contributing to that, that overall mission of the company. People work because they have to work. Oftentimes not everybody's like, this is my passion. Right. If you're not an entrepreneur person, if you hire the right people that feel connected to what you're doing and then you make sure that they see how that actually happens in their day to day job, they want to be at a place like that. Right. It's just how we are as human beings. We want to feel valued, we want to be able to see an impact to what we're doing and spending most of our time on. And so for me it's that effort is to really just have brought the teams together, but then also be the person that can say, okay, where do we see if trouble is coming up? Why? You know, is it because they're not hearing what's going on? Is it because they're not being feeling valued? And you know, people think it's all about salaries and money and it's not, it's really that feeling like a part of something bigger.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, it's that and I think it's also just actually giving about them as humans. Covid has really accelerated for most companies. We had to give about each other, many don't. And that's who's getting people quitting. Right. Because if you don't care about people, don't line them. Adapt and be flexible. We talked a little bit about, talk about the startup culture and what it's like being a COO in a startup culture.

It's crazy. No. I have this often joke. I say, I don't know how I end up in this role. You know, I always, I like to fancy myself being a product person and a marketing person, but I always end up running operations. And I think the biggest thing about doing it in a startup is really being on top of everything and that ability to constantly, to remember everything that's happening and be organized about it. I think that's the case case in larger organizations surely. But you have a lot more maybe support around you. So for me it's really being like, yeah, my manager of customer success team might tell me something, but I'm going to go down to the person that's actually doing it because we need to get into the detail. And so it's like being willing to just really constantly, all day long, shift gears, shift between projects, shift between teams and get into those weeds. But I love that. I think I Would be miserable if I was just kind of hearing from, from my direct reports and not really being involved in what's happening.

What was it like getting acquired? I think you said you've gone through one or two acquisitions. What was that like?

You know, it's different both times. But you know, in this case and actually in both cases, the parent company's really been like, you do your thing, you know, we're not changing anything. We want you to kind of build out. Here's some goals, here's some, some of that. And so that part's been similar and not something to stress about. The biggest thing is the team, right. How teams react and ensuring people feel comfortable being as transparent as we. Because we're current situation, we're still learning about our parent company. It's not been that long. We were acquired last fall, so around October, November. If they don't hear from us for a month, they're like, okay, what's up? And it's like, well, we don't know anything different. Like we're just doing what they said. Nothing's changed. We're continuing to do this. This has been interesting because we have a lot of sister companies. And so this time it's been for me trying to navigate that and figure out where we can build partnerships and things like that. So it's added this other layer of these sister companies, which is exciting, but a whole nother job, so to speak, that you could add on. We're actually looking at bringing in someone to just really do partnerships at this point.

How about in terms of navigating the politics or navigating the new group of people that you report to or report into or it's not just you and the CEO now I would imagine there's like a board or some kind of governance or, or maybe even like cohorts at some of these other companies, sister companies. How do you navigate all of that? That's gotta be different as well.

It is. And I think that's where my CEO and I really kind of split that. Like I'm just trying to run the day to day operations and keep people going and setting those goals and working through. And he's navigating that part of it and he has a good relationship. So our parent company is actually privately owned. And so you know, the head of that company is, really has direct communications with our CEO and they meet weekly and they talk about kind of the higher level vision. There's been some navigating in terms of just kind of the operational finance side of it because That's. That's a big part of the organization. But otherwise it's not been too challenging. It's more trying to get. Get that FaceTime. And now we have it regularly.

Just talk about some of your career that got you to be the COO the first time, and then what have you pulled from that into your second role?

What's interesting about my background is I actually. So I have a degree in journalism, broadcast journalism, and master's, but I also have. My undergrad degrees are in computer information systems and finance. So I've always kind of had this. These two parts, and people were like, what are you doing? When I was doing, you know, my education and going back to do journalism, but it was really before the Internet and before, you know, all the news organizations had to figure out, how do I communicate in this way and keep my business alive? And so it turned out to just be the best thing as we moved into the current digital world we're in, where I really have both of those sides. And that's what clearvoice was about. And that's why I was so excited to help them create that company, because it was really about content marketing and creating that freelance marketplace for the gig economy, which was at the time just kind of a starting thing. And now we have, you know, Covid, where gig economy is like, that's the life, right? That was exciting for me. It was something that was able to bring those two things together. And I think that role really helped me grow in terms of. Terms of, you know, I didn't go in saying I'm going to be a coo. I was leading the content team. I was doing the things that made sense with my resume. But it was something that I realized and grew in how I can lead teams, how I can inspire people, how I can keep things moving and organized. And so that's just kind of how that. That evolved. And that. That was a really, really great time for me.

That's a huge growth for a leader as well. When they realize that really their primary role is growing and aligning people, it's not doing stuff right.

It's.

It's a weird shift as well. Well, what about Congress? How did you grow and what lessons do you think you pulled running for Congress that you use now as a.

Coo When I ran the first time, and, you know, we had a great success with that, really moved the needle here in this district, and so really took. Well, you just got to run it like a business. You just. The marketing or the digital marketing. What's the Big deal. And so I had a lot of people had worked with in that space join my team and we really ran it that way. And I really wanted to see a campaign be about, you know, building a brand and everything you kind of do with the business. And so. But coming out of it, I really learned more about how to inspire teams. I think that's the biggest thing that I've brought to ludolytics and kind of going forward is I had one of the biggest volunteer organizations really in the state. And it was truly because we were able to figure out to me, the volunteers on a congressional campaign are the customers, because that's your power. Without them, it's really hard to get it done right. Nobody knows who you are, that kind of thing. And so I think if you can treat it like that and kind of take that approach to now, back to business business and say, okay, how do we create communities with our customers and how do we serve them better? But then also the, our, our team, our employees and really make sure. And that's what comes back to everything I've been saying about listening and kind of making sure people have a voice. That was so critical in the campaign. And I've just really applied that to everything I'm doing here. A lot of my team members, including, you know, in the C level and our CEO, CEO is always like, you're just so diplomatic, so give me the how should I handle this situation? You know, we'll do these kind of sessions and I'm like, I don't think I'm that diplomatic. I think I'm actually kind of silly and confused half the time. That's my own assessment. I think it's truly. People forget to listen and then say, okay, let me ingest all the information and let me figure out a good way to handle this that works for everybody. And those things, the campaign really helped me have confidence in that. You know, as a woman, we're always saying we're not good at something or whatever. I own it now. I just say it. And I think the campaign gave me that as well.

All right, I want to go Back to the 2122 year old Anita Malik, and I want you to give yourself some advice that maybe you know to be true today, but you wish you'd known back then.

Just own what you're good at and have that confidence and speak up throughout that journey. You know, I've played so many different roles. I was a developer when I started. I've been a business analyst. I mean, I've done everything And I often felt bad for asking for more or for standing up for myself or my team because oftentimes I felt like I was like the mother hen with teams, you know, at every place I've been and had this like, bad feeling, though shouldn't have done that. And I would tell myself that there's nothing wrong with that. You're doing the right thing and you to need, need to kind of be that leader and own it.

Anita Malik, the COO for Funnelytics, thanks very much for sharing with us on the Second Command podcast.

Thank you. This has been great.

You have to be very careful about who you hire in terms of culture fit when you're working remote. One of the definitions of culture is what do employees do when nobody's looking? And that's kind of key here when it comes to, like, remote hires. You have to really nail who you hire. They have to be extra careful around the culture component because you have to trust when people are at home what they're doing.