Navigating Group Dynamics | Center for Family Representation COO, Alicia Williams (Podcast 282)

I am the one that will wait and say, well, what does everybody, you know, what feels right? What are you thinking? What are you thinking? What about this? And see, they'll say, okay, well, that. I think that that works. I said, you know, I was thinking about X. It's like, okay, well. And if everybody's like, well, I don't really want to do X, and I'm like, that's cool, but I will at least offer my opinion. But I tend to do it at the end so that I'm not clouding the direction that that group wants to take.

Ladies and gentlemen, get ready to meet the powerhouse behind the center for Family Representation. Today's episode features the one and only Alicia Williams, the COO who's leading the charge in the fight to keep families together. As the organization's first ever coo, Alicia's been instrumental in the growth and success of the cfr. And she's here to share her story with us. With a passion for people and a knack for leadership, Alicia's taken on the challenge of transitioning to report to a new coo. And she's doing it with her trademark energy and enthusiasm. As an extroverted coo, she brings a unique perspective to the role, and she's not afraid to speak her mind and share her ideas. But even with all her experience, Alicia admits she could have slowed down a bit when executing on ideas. In her early days as coo, she's learned the value of taking a step back and using surveys internally to gather more data to ensure that everyone is on the same page. And speaking of data, Alicia knows just how important it is for the organization like CFR to prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's a key part of their mission to support families and children in need, and Alicia is leading the charge to make sure that everyone at the CFR feels valued and supported. So grab a cup of coffee, turn up the volume, and get ready to be inspired by Alicia Williams, the COO of the center for Family Representation. And also, you can watch the episode on the Second in Command podcast channel on YouTube. So, Alicia, welcome to the Second in Command podcast.

Thank you, Cameron. It is a pleasure and honor to be here.

I'm looking forward to learning from you and learning more about you as well. I know that you're actually a COO alliance member and been intriguing to kind of get to know you a little bit over the last number of months as you've been on a lot of our monthly Mastermind calls, but why don't you start off by Telling us a little bit about the organization that you're the CEO of, the center for Family Representation, what the organization does, and then we'll go into some of your path and go deep from there.

That sounds wonderful. So I have the pleasure of being the CEO for the center for Family Representation. We are a legal services nonprofit organization based out of New York. So we have offices in Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens. The Bronx is our newest office. Woot woo. So our focus really is on keeping families together. We really fight those institutional oppressive systems that tend to divide black and brown communities in particular. And so we provide a full on interdisciplinary, and I'll say that is an attorney, a social worker or family advocate and a parent advocate. So we provide that team to each of our clients. Again, that look like me. Black and brown communities in Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens. And so whether it's immigration, family defense, criminal defense, youth defense, housing, we really are there to advocate for them and their rights and really combat this system of oppression that they are faced with on a daily basis.

So you said something about keeping the families together and, you know, against these systems of oppression, the systems that push against that. Can you give me some specific? Like, here's one or two. What exactly does that mean? Like really, really put it in our face.

Yeah. I mean, again, the acs, which is the child regulation system that our clients are faced with in New York, really do enter their lives, these black and brown families, with this belief that they are guilty and that they're not good parents. And so they are coming in to save these children from their awful, terrible parents. And so that is it. They are very targeting of black and brown people and coming into their lives and really awfully destroying these families that very often are doing just fine. They're imperfect because, you know, maybe they are suffering with poverty, whatever that deficiency is. But many of us struggle as we are trying to do our best to raise our children. I mean, they come into folks's homes and lives and tear these families apart because they look like me.

Honestly, now I understand. So I thought I was like, are you talking about keeping husbands and wives together or is it more keeping the kids with parents?

Yes, keeping those children with their parents.

Yeah, yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Okay, how did you find the organization and what was it that. Cause you've been there for a couple of years now. What was it that attracted you to the organization and what do you think it was that had that CEO, the founding CEO, what did they see in you?

I live in Virginia, which is interesting. Where I am today, Northern Virginia. This organization hired an executive recruiting firm and they found me on LinkedIn, which was really interesting, and reached out to me for this opportunity. So it was, I mean, again, I'm a super spiritual person, so I do believe all the stars aligned that they were even able to consider me from Virginia. But in reading the job posting, it was like this, this is me. Like this is who I am, this is what I do, and this is what I have done in particular, as it related to being a trailblazing position because I am their very first coo. And so that excited me for sure that I would be able to be laying down some foundational things in this organization. And it's been around for 20 years for me. I had just gotten my doctorate in education and was really looking to put my lived experience in, to work and in a place where I really felt like I could bring all of me to work. And so through the extensive interview process through the executive search firm, through the many interviews that I had with the staff of CFR way back when at different levels within the organization, and the thought exercises that they put me through and the conversations with my former CEO and cfo, it just felt like there was strong alignment with who I was and my lived experience and who this organization communicated that they were, were in these communities. And I am very much a mommy first. So the mission of keeping families together was just. I was sold on that mission, sold on the interaction that my colleagues had through the recruitment process and then the dynamic alignment that I had with my former CEO in particular. I was just sold.

What do you think that she saw in you? Especially coming in as the first coo?

I would say she saw, I'm sure she felt my energy, she felt my passion. It was funny because she had to leave one of the final interviews and leave me with the cfo and she's like, I have fomo. I have fomo. It just the energy, the connection, the alignment with who she is as a human. I think we, we are literally, I mean, I think we're, we're kind of soul sisters. So I'm sure a lot of it was very much in the connection that we felt in the conversation. Our philosophies of how we go about doing our work and occupying spaces and our passion for diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging too. I know that was probably a big piece of the connection. And then I think, you know, my experience, I had been whether it was formally in title, I had occupied the role of a COO before in an organization. And so had really already kind of lived into what was expected of a COO from facilities and IT and communications and customer service and human resources and training. All of those things were things that I had already tackled in and of other organizations. So I know she saw that I brought kind of the toolbox to the table as well.

So the matching kind of core values, the matching kind of behavioral traits, and then the skill set, that makes a lot of sense. So coming into an organization as their first COO and coming in over top of an existing team that was already in the organization. Can you walk us through what went well in doing that and what you would have maybe tried to change now, having done that?

Yeah, that. Oh, my goodness, that's such a good question and perspective. I think what went really well was my ability to be real. I think I. I was unafraid to ask questions, to ask, help me understand. I did a lot of listening to understand and then asking questions to get, you know, clarification on things. I think what also went well is, you know, my CEO, again, she prepared the space for this new position, though, as well. So it was like we knew we were going to be coming into. I knew I was going to be coming into an already established team, but they also knew that they would be getting this external person that would be a part of the team. And so I think her preparation of me for that space was helpful and was done well. Again, it was very often that I found myself saying, you know, I'm trying to do this dance, being me, while also trying to ensure that I'm not upsetting the flow of how things were. And so there was oftentimes, I see. I would say I'm trying to do this dance. Being able to navigate between my, you know, my ability to lead a particular way and knowing that CFR and these leaders had led a certain way. So again, I think for me, the successes or what went well was the, like, the pausing, the listening, the asking questions, being unafraid to ask questions, and even to push back sometimes when things maybe didn't make sense. I think what didn't go well, you know, was that I was brought on to make change. And I think change is hard. And so sometimes when I think about, I could have slowed down some of the change and, you know, take off the skates, put on the walking shoes when I think some of the change may have been met with a little bit of resistance. And so that is something, a lesson learned always when we're coming into an organization as a change agent, to be mindful of how fast, you know, we implement that change. I think that's a, that's a. To continuously to be worked on.

You're really one of the first guests out of 270 episodes that even said that they should have slowed down. And I think it's very intuitive to know that because I think too often CEOs and really a lot of senior executives come in too quickly. I was actually working with a CEO and another CEO alliance member an hour ago about that exact topic. Could you give me like one or two specific examples of where you've gone too fast?

Before I started, I knew that we were. And we, in terms of like the HR finance function was operating on a particular platform I had used before, but was very cumbersome and it wasn't being used to the maximum capacity. There were, there was a still a lot of heavy manual entry and as a system. Right. For the organization. And so I came on board and I was like, well I, you know, I used a particular system at my last, last job and it was fantastic. And I implemented and it was phenomenal. This is going to make our work administratively on the back end, like so much better. And so literally within probably six months or so I was engaging a organization system wide human resources information system implementation. And yes, it is definitely all of those things. Quicker, faster, less manual entry. But what I didn't do, which I would do if I had to do it over again, was to do engage the staff about what really was working and not working with the previous system and what they wanted to ensure was maintained in the new system. Oh my goodness. Yeah, totally. Because again, I think one of the headaches is like, oh my goodness. Well, the old system gave us this information. Well, this system doesn't. Right. So if I would have paused and asked like, what is it that you really enjoy about this current system? Because I'm about to destroy it and to get rid of it that you want insurance continued in the new system to make their lives as staff across the organization. Well, that would have been, I mean that one definitely is a lesson learned for me for sure. Is implementation of that human resources information system like out of the gate.

Do you think you bring some of that to the way that you lead now? Do you think you bring some of that kind of asking questions and understanding more?

Absolutely, yeah. So I mean again, I'm a data, I'm a, you know, my doctorate, so I'm a data person. Research. I love what are folks, what do folks have to say? But I think coming in, I was so, like focused on like making the HR administration streamlined and easy and error, you know, as least error free. That was my focus, which was very narrowly focused. You know, it took away from my very much. I survey. They. I have brought surveys to. That's an organization. They probably, I probably drive them crazy because I survey staff on everything, whether it's return to office, whether it's, you know, a culture survey, whether it's deib. And so one of the things that has become institutionalized since I've been here is the very intentional focus on surveying staff. Well, what do folks feel about this? What do they really care about if we don't keep doing the same thing, expecting a different result? So let's ask them. So we do a ton of surveys and I think just in terms of leading, I spend a lot of time saying, okay, like when we're making decisions like pause, reflect, then decide to engage or not. Because oftentimes we just go to engage without like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's just pause here. Take a moment to evaluate what's happening. Reflect on, okay, who am I in this space? How should I engage? What would that look like? And to decide, do I actually really need to engage or do I step back so that pause, reflect, engage or not again, is like my M.O. and I've been teaching folks, like, let's think about this pause, like reflect on what's happening and then decide if there's an engagement or not. That's a philosophy that I've been trying to impose upon my workforce, I think. And then also another one of my philosophies is like, let's, as it relates to execution, like, let's just do it, like, make the decision, execute, live into that and then tweak it. If it's not like, we're not like set in stone in that decision path.

That's what I was going to ask about was I was curious of the surveys and do you ever get the feeling like at times you just need to make the decision based on the data that you've got when you make the call? Or do you ever go against the survey? Like, if the survey says X, do.

You ever go Y to answer both of those pieces? I have to execute all the time. I want to make sure that I'm very intentional about gathering data on processes, systems that are going to impact this group or that group. So I'm going to make sure those voices are there. But ultimately, like, I've got to decide whether that's, I mean, again, it, you know, it happened in our DEIB work, it was like we were just going around and around and it was like, okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to live into this new process and this new way of doing things. Yeah, let's six months and like, then reevaluate, but we've got to do something different. So that was a very solid piece of where I was just like, okay, this is not working. We've got to do something different. This is the proposal I have. Let's live into it and then tweak it if we need to tweak it as we go along. But we've got to start moving this process forward. I think, yeah, I definitely, I can just execute. And then, you know, I think, again speaking, I do a lot related to deib. I just conducted a survey to evaluate which affinity groups that we want to move forward. And I'm not going to move them all forward because I don't have the bandwidth to do that. And I don't have the internal staff who are saying, sign me up. I want to be the coordinator of that group. So it's going to be very intentional. The groups that I choose to move forward and the ones that I don't, even those survey, you know, I got interest across a variety of different affinity groups. I don't have the bandwidth and someone hasn't raised their hand and said they want to lead it, so we're not moving it forward.

It's really interesting that you said that. You almost read my mind with my question, and I'm not entirely sure how to ask the question, but you mentioned a couple times about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, and then you kind of even rattled the dog as an acronym. I didn't know there was even an acronym for it. So clearly I'm missing an opportunity for growth. But my question was, how do you make decisions that sometimes are the tough decisions when it doesn't necessarily go against those. But it's also not the Kumbaya group hug. Like, we're not getting everybody together going, let's all love each other, let's all be happy, let's all be included. Let's all like, you know, it's kind of like when, when you got. How many kids do you have?

I have two.

Okay. So it's kind of easy when we have two. Right? Like, it's easy to get the two to just pick a fricking restaurant to go to. But if you've got like six kids, somebody's not going to be happy with tonight's Restaurant choice. It can't just be if the six of you don't get along, we're not going for dinner because that never works. So how do you rate those decisions when you're trying to. Is it just because that's a North Star, like diversity and inclusion equities, like is a North Star that you're driving towards and then tough decisions are a part of that is that we are.

Very intentionally working on a daily basis to be an anti racist organization. It is not like check the box. It is not like we have arrived. It is ongoing, never ending work. And a lot of what we do ties to. I mean we serve black and brown communities who are dealing with lots of different oppressive systems. And so what the work that we do internal focuses on how we treat each other and how do we deal with disconnects when we, when they show up as they do. For example, I'm on a committee right now in celebration of our AAPI month, which is the month of May. There's like 20 of us and we've got to come to a consensus. I generally my nature, I'm the CEO in the space and I'm the highest person on this committee that has staff across the organization at various levels. And so we're doing a lot of decision making. But I tend to not be the first to voice my perspective because then I don't want everybody to say, well, Alicia said we're going to go to the museum and so that's what we're going to do. Because she's a CEO, she has the power and authority in this space. So generally I am the one that will wait and say, well, what does everybody, you know, what feels right? What are you thinking? What are you thinking? What about this? And see, they'll say, okay, well that I think that that works. I said, you know, I was thinking about X. It's like, okay, well. And if everybody's like, well, I don't really want to do X and I'm like, that's cool, but I will at least offer my opinion. But I tend to do it at the end so that I'm not clouding the direction that that group wants to take as it relates to the decisions that they want to make about X, Y or Z.

And that the leader has to speak last for the exact reason. Right. So that we don't sway, we don't direct them in the wrong direction. Your path, what's gotten you to the kind of to be able to be a coo. What was your journey to get here?

Well, Again, as I said earlier on, I'm a super spiritual person, so I feel like God is all in it. But I, you know, I started as a bilingual administrative assistant at my alma mater, the University of San Diego in their HR department and have always my nature is service. So I've been a servant from ever and saw human resources as a way to serve and to give back and to help. And so that was my entry into hr. And then in that space I also became very involved in DEIB and risk management. So earlier on kind of began the filling the toolbox with these operational pieces, administration, you know. And then from there I moved into an HR role with a wireless communications organization that was really focused on human resources in all aspects of hr. And then from there became a regional HR manager in a manufacturing environment where I spoke Spanish, which I'm super proud of. I spoke Spanish most of my day and was really, that I think really gave me the opportunity to dig into operations because I was over inside sales, windows, manufacturing. So I would be out on the floor walking around talking to folks, hard hats, all of that, and oversaw, you know, HR administration, some pieces of it. And then from there I really entered the space of nonprofit, which has been my passion since 2005. There became a director of HR and working in nonprofit for that large, largest community action agency in the state of Texas. At that point just have really had opportunities to continue to grow and fill my toolbox and went from there to a director of HR for a foundation out in Maryland. And then from there came the director of HR training and administration for a kind of like accreditation. And that's where I was for eight years, where I really focused on being second in charge and second in command and fill my toolbox like buying a building, putting in elevators, doing training in HR and really stepping in when my CEO was gone. And I was there for eight years and held that second in command role even without the title that gave me that bug of like, wow, I love this. I love being able to touch all of these different areas of an organization without having to be in the CEO seat, but being very close to that seat and being able to step in in the absence of the CEO, which I did quite a bit in that role and then went to as the managing director of HR for a nonprofit environmental organization where I was there and created their HR department for them similar to what I did at the accreditation organization. And then I was there for three years and then got picked up by CFR as their first coo, where I have been July will Be two years.

And you've got a lot of people depth in terms of like the hr. But it's really, it's not like policies and procedures and dotting the I's on paperwork.

It's culture.

It was very much around culture and the people side. And plus I love the manufacturing side. Like not many people get to walk a shop floor with the working blue collar.

Yes. Assembly line. It was assembly line like that.

And then into the nonprofit world and the corporate world is pretty fucking cool. So that starts to make a lot of sense. Curious. Can you tell us? A lot of COOs get hired via recruiting agency via an executive search firms. And we actually have a couple of partners for the CEO alliance that are amazing executive search firms. What do you think a senior executive needs to do to help the executive search firm place them with the right company? Because these search firms really are a good tool for you as well as someone bringing you over. What do you think makes that good partnership between the two?

Ooh, that's interesting. If I think about how I came to be here at cfr, I think the search firm was very, it was right for them to listen to Michelle as the former CEO and say, well, wait, wait, wait, wait. I know she's in Virginia, but like, I think she may have what we need, you know, so being able to, I think the search firm has to really be able to be open to what's not on the paper. And I think the organization likewise like has to be open to, well, do we really need them to be five days a week in New York or could this person possibly do this job in a different way and still meet our needs? And I think, you know, sometimes as, as the external search firm, like they have their, they have their pool of candidates and that's what they have. And so that's all that they're looking at and that's who they're trying to push. But if they are, you know, if the search firm is really not in tune with like asking questions about what is it that you're really trying to accomplish in this role. And if you think about the COO role in particular, there's none. None of us are alike. There's 140 of us or whatever and CEO alliance, you know, when I asked the question in the give get or whatever, that was, you know, how many of you all oversee deib? There's not very many. So our roles are super unique. And for the CEO role in particular, I think it's very important that the organization like understands the gaps that they're trying to fill and put that in the posting. Right. So that that executive search firm knows what they're looking for. But then that executive search firm has to be very intentional about asking good questions about. Okay, but what is it that you're really looking for in terms of for the coo? Are you really looking for a partner? Are you really looking for that yin and yang, you know, that you talk about? Are you really looking for that person that'll help you be better? And that can really be your sounding board. What is it that you're looking for? And I'm biased, right. Because I got to be here at cfr. But they're posting it just spoke the language that the posting used, like sounding board partnership. There was tremendous alignment with who I am and what they were asking for too. I don't know if that answers your questions, but. Yeah.

Of CFRB, how many, how many employees there currently?

135.

Okay. So it's a good medium sized organization that is going to be, it's moving to, to be more of a progressive company. If it was not already your background and mine. Because we're both like 35.

Yes.

Our background is like we're from the world where we went to an office, we walked into an office, all the employees were in office. We might have had a couple of different offices, but people in an office, local.

Yeah.

I don't know when the heck people work from home. It was usually after dinner, but it certainly wasn't Monday to Friday. Right. How did you make the leap from, you know, the normal offices to hybrid or remote? And then how do you make that connection with the whole DEIB as well? Like how do you bring those four areas into the remote workplace?

Yeah. So I think in terms of becoming remote, like all of us had to flip the switch. Right. And so we were already had laptops. And so it was a very easy flip of the switch for us to become an organization that was in the office five days a week to like take your laptop and do the work from home. There wasn't a lot that we had to navigate except and because we are an organization that follows the court system, the court flip, you know, we follow the court, so the court flipped. And so we had to immediately flip and align with the court being fully remote. And so I wasn't there upon, you know, in 2020. I was not here at CFR back then. But what I have heard is that it was a pretty easy transition because we already had laptops. And so I think the challenge became Then how do we still live into this sense of camaraderie and this free de corps now that we are all over the place and not seeing each other face to face? And that has been a challenge. We are now living into a policy of requiring those staff who are client facing to be in an office or in person or in court or in the field two days a week with the opportunity to work from home up to three days, as long as client, organizational or colleague needs. Don't dictate otherwise. And that has seemed to been working quite well. I know in surveying newbies as they've come on board for onboarding. There's definitely a theme of folks wanting in person presence more. The connection, the relationships. One of the things that's connected all of us that's directly related to our DEIB work is that we have one of the many DEIB committees that we have is focused on celebrations and monthly events. So like I mentioned, we have an AAPI month. This is AAPI month. So our committee is focused on engaging a variety of different events and activities and sharing of information and resources across the organization. Like this Friday they're going to the Rubin Museum in New York as a staff. So it has not been. It's actually we do a lot culture wise. We have monthly events, we have across the organization trainings that all staff are either required to attend or offered to attend, offer to them to participate and engage. And we invite staff across the organization to engage in all of these different ways. So it's actually not really hard for us to live into our DEIB work because we're doing work weekly, monthly and in engaging staff. Whether it's a, you know, a happy hour or it's this particular celebration, cultural celebration or event or activity that we offer everyone to participate in. We had for Black History Month we had a movie Screening of Madam C.J. walker which came on Netflix. So we, we offered that streaming across our or across all of our offices. So there's a lot that we do that brings us together and we offer snacks, of course, for people to eat. Our staff meetings now people are invited to come in person or they're virtual. So it's just whatever kind of works with that individual's lived experience in terms of in person versus a need to be hybrid. As long as they're living to the policy of requiring to be in person two days a week, if that's their.

Job expectations, that makes sense. It's hard to. Hard to go through that process, but you're going through it. You are, you have a very different trait from most COOs in that you're very extroverted. You mentioned that earlier that you and your prior CEO were both very extroverted. Now you've transitioned a new CEO coming in who's fairly introverted, and you're kind of that extroverted CEO. But you also mentioned that every COO is completely different. We all do different roles, different responsibilities, different, you know, areas of the business that we run. Can you speak to how you are leveraging your extroversion as a clo?

Yeah, I would think with my new CEO. Again, with my old CEO, it was like, do you want to do it or do you want me to do it? Like, you know, because there were things that she really enjoyed that are operational that I did. So I learned, which is something I think we as CEOs need to do, is just live into what they need us to live into as their. As their CEO. Focus on the partnership, you know, ensure that we are complimenting them in whatever way that is. Even if it's your job, they enjoy doing it. I had to learn with my former CEO, whatever you want to do, that's fine. If you got it, you got it. That's totally cool. So I think with my current CEO, who is more introverted, I find myself focusing on, how can I best support you? I ask her that, how can I best support you? And there are, you know, there are situations where I'm like, well, do you. Do you want me to lead in this space, or do you have it? I think there has been a focus on not really wanting to have as many meetings. And so that is something that she is bringing in her new capacity. Like, okay, which meetings can we get rid of? And I'm like, okay, right on. Like, what can we do to streamline some of these, I think in person conversations that could really be handled via an email or something like that. So how I am really trying to support her, whether I'm an extrovert or an introvert, is just asking, what do you need from me? How can I best support you? Whatever that looks like. If you need me to be more extroverted in this space, I totally got it. I can lead if you need me to take a backseat. And you got it. I think that that's just how I roll. I don't know if it's me particularly living into an extroversion or an introversion. It's just, what does support look like to you? That's what matters to me.

What was it you were looking for when you Joined the CEO Alliance. What was it that kind of grabbed you and said, yes, I should join?

Yeah, well, I think I was considering another C suite organization at the time and really wanted to find a space to process how unique and challenging and dynamic the work of a COO was. And I was really looking. Why I chose COO alliance over that other organization was because I love the diversity. I really appreciate there's men, there's women, there's ethnicities. Across the COO alliance, different countries are represented, different perspective, different industries, different backgrounds. And you know, I've gone to each of our monthly Mastermind sessions and I would have to say I didn't anticipate all that has come with this membership. It's been overwhelming and fantastic. It's interesting because my former CEO, who is very much an ops person, texted me yesterday and I was telling her about this conversation and she's like, you know, she's like, I may join the CEO alliance if I get a seat. I said, yes, of course. You're the one that gave me the approval to be here in the first place. So it has just been, it's been more than I anticipated. From the onboarding process to all of the beautiful gifts and books that help add to our repertoire and conversations that we can have and sharing of resources. And I do appreciate that. It's not about my opinion, but it's about kind of, well, this has been my experience and I think that lens is very helpful. So it's not. I don't have all the answers. Right. I have my experience which I can share, but I don't have. I'm not the expert. So we can share together and collectively be able to share our lived experiences.

So, bunch of months, monthly Mastermind speakers too. We've got some incredible speakers coming in for the next four or five months that I know of off the top of my head. All right, last question. I want you to give yourself, the 22 year old Alicia Williams, some advice. If you were to lean back to when you were 22 years old and you wanted to give yourself some advice, maybe it's advice that you know to be true today, but you wish you'd known back then, what would you tell yourself?

I would tell my 22 year old fantastic self. Be your genuine, authentic self. Be unafraid, be bold, be brave, and know you have everything that you need already inside you.

I love it. Alicia Williams, the COO for the center for Family Representation, thanks so much for sharing this episode.

Thank you, Cameron.

That was awesome. Appreciate it.

Learning to say no and truly reframing. No. As an act of service. If we think about raising kids, the most spoiled kids in the world are the ones that always get everything that they want. They never have to work for it. We know this to be true. Your team is exactly the same way. And so operators, in my experience, are incredibly service oriented people.