Ankur Jain - Building Companies To Make Housing & Healthcare More Affordable

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Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. My name is Casey Adams and today we have Ankar Jain on the show. Ankar Jain currently serves as the founder and CEO of Kairos. The venture fund is building and investing in companies with a goal tackling the world's greatest challenges. Over the years, Kairos has helped launch and grow over $6.5 billion worth of companies, tackling problems in healthcare, housing costs, transportation networks and and more. Before rejoining Kairos in May 2017, Jane was the VP of Product at Tinder, the world's largest social network for meeting people. He joined Tinder after it acquired his previous company, Human, where he served as founder and CEO. Over the years, Jane has been recognized for a variety of achievements. In 2017, he was named a young Global Leader by the World Economics forum. And in 2011, Inc magazine named anchor Jane the best connected 21 year old in the world. And overall, I'm very excited to have anchor Jane on the show today. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Give Ankur a shout out on Instagram by screenshotting this podcast and tagging us on your Instagram story. And that being said, enjoy the show. All right, what's going on, everyone?

Kaceyo. Hey, Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. Today we have Anker Jane here with us. Thanks so much for coming on the show, man.

Hey, it's great to see you virtually.

Hey, absolutely. So I've been following you for quite some time and you're up to some amazing things. You're the CEO and founder of Kairos and to really start this off, I'd love for you to just give the people some insight into what Kairos is and what you guys Work on?

Yeah, no, of course. So Kairos over the last few years has been trying to figure out how to build companies to make just life more affordable. I mean all of us are dealing with this, frankly, more so now than ever before. But it's just hard, right? You get out of school, you've got your student loans and then you move to the city to get a job and now you got to pay this outrageous rent and then you got to figure out health care when you turn 26 and it's just like all these expenses stack up and it's no wonder it's so hard to get ahead. And what we've been trying to figure out is there's got to be a way to use innovation, use technology. Instead of making like cryptocurrency blockchain apps, what if we went and figured out how to fix rent and make it more affordable or fix health care? These are trillion dollar markets, right? These are massive industries. And a few years ago I remember thinking to myself, what other market in the world do you keep spending more on and get worse and worse service other than these? This seems like the right opportunity to help solve a big problem and to build a really interesting business. And so that's what we've been doing over the last three years. And so today Kairo six companies all across housing and healthcare and we're working on everything from getting rid of security deposits so you can save thousands of dollars and you move them to an apartment to building the first ever housing credit card so you can actually build your credit score every time you pay your rent and build a path to home ownership where you have like a healthcare business that helps you take care of your parents when they get older, A healthcare company to help you take care of your kids if you have kids, and then healthcare company to help take care of us. And so it's just like these are some of the big issues that our generation faces and that's we've been working on Kairos.

Very cool. Before we dive into just the story of how this all started, I'd love for you to touch on what you guys are working on, right? With everything happening. Coronavirus and this pandemic. Now I've seen you talking a lot about that on social. I'd love you to touch on that because it fascinates me and I'd love to hear it from your end.

Look, it's a scary time right now for a lot of reasons, right? I mean we had 10 million people lose their jobs in the last few weeks. Most of Them are people our age. And the big. The scariest part of that is, at the end of the day, April 1st comes around and you still have to pay your rent. And even if your landlord can't kick you out, you don't want to go into default. You don't want to start building up debt. You don't want to have your credit score screwed up. And so for the last two weeks, we just jumped on this and started working on a plan to get rent paid for everyone in the country. And it sounds like a crazy ambitious goal, but it stemmed and it was inspired by some of the work we're doing at our company, Rhino. So, Casey, you may not realize this, but across the US there's $45 billion of cash locked up in security deposits. When you moved into your apartment, you might remember, you had to pay first month rent maybe last month, and then another, like thousand or 1500 bucks in a security deposit. All that money just sits around in escrow accounts doing nothing. Part of what we've been doing with Rhino is replacing that with a little $5 a month insurance policy. So instead of paying 1500 bucks, you can just pay $5 a month. The insurance protects your landlord, and you save thousands of dollars. Fast forward to Coronavirus. What's happening right now. I mean, frankly, more than ever, we need to put that money back in our pockets. So we've been working with city, state, federal leaders across the country to say, let's create immediate rent relief. Give everyone who rents the choice today to unlock their security deposit, put it towards next month's rent so that we get a break for 30 days. Our landlords still get paid. Right. And we'll step in and help insure everyone so the landlords remain protected during this time. Right. And in the meantime, that gives us a chance to get our finances in order and get our life in order and figure out what we're doing, maybe even just get that stimulus check that the government's supposed to be sending out.

Right?

And so, you know, in the last. In just 10 days, that went from an idea to having the Secretary of Housing from the United States endorse it as a national movement. We had the mayor of New York not only endorse the plan, but send a letter to the governor demanding emergency action for all New Yorkers. The mayor of Dallas is working on passing this right now for the city. You have, you know, this plan already got passed in Cincinnati. So this is happening.

Right?

And this is like $45 billion back into our pockets at the time when we need it most.

Yep. Very cool. I appreciate you explaining that. It's definitely, you know, with everything happening in this current market, it's so cool to see how you're being. You're tackling that. So I want to take it back because I know I dove into your story and I'm fascinated by just how you've grown as an entrepreneur. So where did this all start from? You from an early age?

Yeah, I mean, I'm like. I'm like a delayed version of you, so I'm, like, nervous where you're gonna be. But I started my first company and I was a kid like you did. And, you know, it was kind of one of those things where you don't realize you're building a company, but you're just trying to solve a problem for yourself, which is, I think, where all companies should start. Right. Which is what is the key problem that you're trying to solve. Sounds so obvious, but today, so many people forget to ask that simple question. And it was back in the day. I was 11 years old and I just got my first cell phone. If you remember back then, it was like T9 texting. You would text like, 222555. It was like that and Snake. And I remember saying, there's got to be a simpler way to do this. And we all had AOL Instant messenger back then. It's probably too late for your time, Casey.

I never used aol.

We wrote the first ever software where you could actually text people from their computer to their phones. So think of like iMessage today. But in 2001, and we launched that, and within two years we had 2 million users, this thing. And it suddenly became this huge business. I was 13 years old. We were making. I was getting checks in the mail. My mom was wondering if I was like, selling drugs or something because she's like, where's coming from? And as much as that was an incredible experience, how to start a business, it was also probably the most important thing. I've now come to see the daily part of my life, which is just failure. And the most spectacular, embarrassing failure that took me years to finally admit. But I mean, this was back, gotta remember 2003, Amazon Web Services, Cloud computing. That was barely if even a thing.

Yep.

This entire company was running on three servers in my bedroom, like, talking like little desktop PCs. Sitting in my bedroom, like, heating up every night, running all this traffic. And one day I went to school and I forgot to keep the fans on in my room. And I came home like any other Day came to log into my computer and I had the godforsaken blue screen of death. All three of my servers. It was a hot day. That day overheated and fried the hard drives.

Wow.

I had never learned at the time, I was so dumb in hindsight, I never learned to back up my files. So overnight, my entire life's work just disappeared.

Wow.

And the company shut down. And that was, that was like, that was my first foray into the startup world.

Got it. So how did this evolve into starting Kairos and just, you know, evolving as an entrepreneur? How did that go throughout high school and then college?

Yeah. So, you know, at one point, you know, I was such a, like naive. You know what, I'm fed up with business. Like, this whole thing blew up on me. I want to go into politics. That lasted me like six months before I realized it's impossible to get anything done there. So being the really, really smart, like naive teenager I was, I thought, I'll go to business school for undergrad. And that's where I'm going to learn to be an entrepreneur. So I enrolled in Wharton. I had back to back slaps on the face. First I learned that business school doesn't mean you learn how to hustle and grind and build products or companies. Business school at the time meant learn how to be a banker or consultant, neither of which I wanted to do. The second thing that happened was I started school right when the financial crisis hit. So any dreams of going into business suddenly just blew up in my face. But you know, the story of your life and any other entrepreneur will realize that big problems are just big opportunities. So when the markets just suddenly collapsed and everyone that I went to school was suddenly out of a job, or the job offers being withdrawn, they didn't know what they were going to do. I said, hey, what better time to try to start a company with a bunch of smart people around me? There's all these smart friends in college who suddenly don't have jobs. What if we took this opportunity where there's no opportunity cost to go start something? And that was the beginning of what became Kairos 12 years ago. Kairos literally means the right moment. And it was kind of my like cheesy pitch at saying there's no better time to try this. Little did I realize that quickly became from just one company to setting up one of the first incubators on university campuses around the world. Within four years, the people that we put through our incubator had spun out over $2 billion of companies. Everything from Periscope to Fiscal Note to Freenom. I mean, there was just incredible innovation because suddenly smart people weren't going into banking consulting, they were going into building stuff. And, and yes, that was kind of the next phase, I guess.

So when you started Kairos and, you know, you brought in these other companies from an incubator, what stemmed that idea? And how did that, you know, come into fruition?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was. It was just this idea. It started off at Penn, where I was at school.

Right.

And you had a business school, an engineering school, a liberal arts college, all in the same area. And the thought was, suddenly no one had jobs. So what if we took the best and brightest people from these different areas, different fields and brought them together? And I remember saying to myself, if we could just create a world where, imagine if the most powerful people today were best friends 20 years ago, working together to solve big problems through entrepreneurship, what would the world look like? And little did I realize just how big that small kind of idea could have gotten. To the point where again, 12 years later, you know, that incubator has now spun out. It's a separate thing. Kairos has become a holding company that runs these businesses in housing and healthcare. But the people that have gone through that journey with me are not only some of my best friends, but are, you know, out there, people you read about in the headlines every day running these businesses. And it's all because we were 18, 19 years old together, just kind of figure out how to make things work.

Yep, very cool. And I know that you were part of a company that sold the Tender Human, and I want to ask you, when did that come about and how was that transition with Kairos?

Yeah, so after I graduated, one of the big things I kept asking myself was, you know, what is the problem that I can help solve beyond just the platform of the incubator that Kairos had become? And at the time, it had felt like as far as technology had advanced, it still wasn't very human. What I mean by that is like, it was still very techy and database driven. And, you know, I didn't understand why the products we used didn't feel more natural. Right. So today, you know, now we all have in our home, we walk in, you can say, like, alexa, turn on the lights. Yeah, but like something as simple as just going to your phone book and saying, hey, who was that guy that Casey introduced me to yesterday? Or who was that girl I met last week?

Right.

That just didn't exist. I mean, something so simple as Today, even to be able to say, who do I know that lives in LA can't even ask that question. So we built the first ever contact system that did that, where you could actually just remember people the way you naturally would, right? And it would say, hey, call that guy that Casey introduced me to. It would pull that information automatically and make that phone call.

Very cool.

So we built that and we ended up getting an offer to sell to IAC Tinder in 2016. And we took it with the idea of what if we could do what Tinder did, but instead of for dating, for professional.

Okay.

But, you know, life has a funny way of twists and turns. And three months after that acquisition, the parent company decided to shift all resources back to the dating product. So I went in and helped run product for 10 years.

Very cool. I'm curious, when it comes to, you know, launching a product like you did for human, if someone's out there looking to start a product and launch a software, what advice do you give to them? When it comes to, you know, getting your first user and building out the product and the necessary step to go through that, I'd love for you to just give us the simple version of what you recommend people to do.

Yeah, well, look, first things first. I think this is so. Again, it sounds so obvious and I can't tell you how many people don't ask this question. And I. And I fell victim this a few times as well, which is just like, are you solving a real problem? Like, what is the problem that you're actually solving? And do people really, really need it? And I think what happens is we start to see so many people getting funded in the technology landscape, and you start to start comparing yourself. Well, it's kind of like Uber for X. Or it's like, imagine if Airbnb could do Y. And the truth is, those businesses almost never work. There was a great quote, I don't know if you remember, like, five years ago, someone asked Jeff Bezos on an earnings call. He said, what is the most important thing we should know about how consumer behavior will change over the next 10 years and what that means for Amazon? He responded, people always ask that, and it's the wrong question. He says the right question is, what won't change over the next 10 years? And he said, underlying core human behavior doesn't change. We have the same wants, the same desires, the same needs. We had 30, 40, 50 years ago as we did 100 years ago, as we do today. And so if you think about it, you just solve this. People still need homes, they need housing, they want social connection. We want a chance to empower ourselves, to make money, to be heard. Everything new is not new. And I think that's something we forget. And so the number one thing I'd say is just like, make sure the products you're starting, it solves a real problem. Right? Number two is what is the absolute simplest way to create the product to solve that problem? And if you think that you need 12 different features to come up with a solution that makes it worth it, you've already lost.

Got it.

Right. Tinder Today is a $15 billion company. It had one feature that did it really, really well to remove the awkwardness of meeting new people. Right? And that's it. And it's transformed. For better or for worse, it's transformed the world.

The key, when it comes to just a young entrepreneur starting where do you believe you had challenges early on through your career?

I mean, it's. Everything is so crazy. I don't want. I'm curious how you thought about this too, because this is something that I struggled with a lot back then. Right. Which is, in a way, being a founder is the most twisted, like, life decision you make. You're like you're pouring your 24 hours a day into something that by every rational logic, shouldn't work. And yet you have to be so convinced that you can pull it off that you make it work. And so there's this balance that I think a lot of us, as founders struggle with, which is like, you sometimes feel like you're faking it and can't figure out what's real and what's not, because on one hand, if you think about all the risks, you'll just scare yourself away from pursuing it. But the confidence you need, delusional confidence. You need to make something real. Make can make you feel like an imposter sometimes. You know, and everyone's had these moments in our startup where things are going great. You just feel good about it when things start to fall apart. The weight of the startup is just the people. Your employees, jobs, your co founders, your friends, like your parents, everybody who you put yourself out there to. It's like that. That's a pretty scary feeling. And I don't know, for me, what I've found is just over the years, more and more, it's just being. I found the importance of starting companies with partners who can be your counterbalance. Right. So when you're going up, they can be the ones worrying, and when you're feeling down, they can be the ones keeping you up. And so many times people tell me they start companies with the perfect co founder.

Oh.

But he's got an engineering background and he's got the right kind of person who can build this app and all that stuff. And I would say all of those skills you can hire. The one thing you can't hire is someone that you can trust, that you can share the ups and downs with. Right. And who's loyal to you and for you to them and that, I mean, this is like, it's like getting married, you know. Yeah.

Very cool. When it comes to raising money for an early stage company. What's your advice there? I know that you've raised money a bunch of times and it's a skill set at the least. When do you recommend companies raise funds and how do you go about that in terms of investing?

Yeah. So raising money is the weirdest thing in the world. I remember like, and it's so screwed up cause, you know, if we're closing another hundred million dollars right now, and I barely batted an eye at it. But when I was Starting, you know, 10, 12 years ago, I remember raising $5,000 was the scariest thing I'd ever done. And you know, I think this was probably one of the most important lessons my dad taught me. I was raising the first round ever for Kairos. We had to raise $100,000. I mean, that felt like so much money. I had no idea how I was gonna get there. So I went home and I called my dad, Hey, I need to figure this out. Is there anyone that you know that does investments or would invest in my startup? Like anybody? Well, maybe call our lawyer, you know, he might be interested in this stuff. I hear he does investments. So I pick up the phone and I never speak to my dad's or family's attorney about anything. Right. I call, I said, hey, Art, this is Encore. Do you have a minute? And his immediate response is, everything okay? Are you in jail? Do you need anything? I said, no, no, everything's great. I'm actually starting a company. Told him what we did. Would you be open to investing? And as I said that, I was so nervous. I mean, I was sweating. And he pauses for a second and he goes, how much do you need? I said, I don't know, like $5,000. I raised 20 calls. 5,000. And he said, sure, send me the details and I'm happy to participate. I hung up the phone, so excited to go tell my dad that I raised my first $5,000. And when I told him the story, he just looked at me and said, call him back. You messed up. What do you mean I messed up? $5,000. He said if he gave me $5,000 that easily, you didn't ask for enough. Go back and ask him for double. And petrified, I picked up the phone, called him back and was, hey, Art, are you sure you'd be down for another 5,000? That's my first 10,000. The lesson of the story there is that you don't ask, right? And you got it is as easy to ask for a million dollars as it is to ask for $5,000. And that barrier really is in our head. And today that same conversation I have is for a 20 million dollar investment check. Right? And it's the same way of approaching it, it's the same mindset. And frankly, you just have to believe and know that what you're offering is real. Right. And you have to be fast. And people can sense when you're unsure of what you're offering.

I love that. And I did want to bring up as well, because regarding your dad's company, Moon Express, can you give me some context into what they do? Exactly, because based on what my knowledge, they mine Moon rocks. Is that correct?

Yeah. So my dad is now doing all sorts of like crazy stuff, only he thinks is rational. He's at the other end of the. So he's got two things that he's working on right now. One is he's figured out how to look at science of our microbiome to figure out what we should and shouldn't be eating. Again, it's like you talk about solving a real problem. All of us know that what we eat makes us healthy or not. And everyone's trying every diet. No carbs, no fats, whole 30. Everyone's got their own thing, right? The only way to really know what you should and shouldn't be eating is, is by looking at the science of your gut microbiome. Because that is what affects how your body digests this food and what actually makes it into your system and what causes all this inflammation in your body. And so one of his companies, Viome, is the only product. You go to viome.com, you order this kit, you send it back and it can tell you down to the food item, like spinach, should you or shouldn't you be eating it and why? Wow, it's incredible. And this could, I mean this already is revolutionizing how we approach disease, how we think about most of these chronic diseases that we talk about stem from inflammation so his number one goal right now is to help people figure out what they should and shouldn't eat, and in the process, help tackle chronic disease. Right. The second thing that he's working on, which is really just truly out there, literally and punitively, is he's been building essentially rocket ships to send to the moon, to mine the moon for precious minerals like platinum and helium 3. And so we've been working with all the other space companies like SpaceX and Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin and all these guys to basically develop the ship that could go from orbit to the moon, land on the moon, and then start to mine it. Because the rocks on the moon, like the rocks here, are a platinum and helium 3, which powers the energy. So when you think about the amount, everything that we think of as rare earth minerals are rare here. Yeah. Abundant on the moon.

Yep.

Very cool.

What's been the biggest lesson that you've learned from your father throughout your life?

So one of the lines that he's repeated to me over and over and over again, and I think this is something all of us, as entrepreneurs struggle with. It's that great founders and great startups die from indigestion, not starvation. In other words, it's rarely the lack of opportunities that creates a company causes the company to die, taking on too much and not being able to focus, block and tackle. And we all deal with this, right? The minute things start to go well, all of a sudden everything becomes an opportunity and everyone's calling you and everyone wants to work on you, and there's a partnership opportunity here, a business development opportunity here, a way to raise more money here. And the challenge is that once you start saying yes to all that, you start to fail at everything. And look, I had that moment in my life when I was probably like 20. So at that point, this is right when Kairos was starting to really take off. Right. And all of a sudden we were in countries all over the world. It spun out some of these companies I mentioned earlier to you, we were working with the White House and Startup America, we were working with the Chilean government and Startup Chile. We were working with governments all over the world, working to help spin up the first ever accelerators in Silicon Valley for, like the modern web 2.0 era. It was a wild experience, but in the process, I got myself roped into a whole bunch of stuff. So now I was running Kairos. Then I got invited to this idea to come help build out what at the time was the first effort to take YouTube celebrities and turn their content into Hollywood franchises. So if you remember, there was a YouTube video went viral years ago called My New Haircut. I don't know if you remember this. It was the first video mocking the Jersey Shore kind of culture. It was actually the predecessor to Jersey Shore. And it was like a hugely viral character. And I remember saying to this guy, I said, hollywood is spending a fortune to license, like Spider Man. You have as many views and followers as some of these, like, superhero characters. Why don't we try to take these types of YouTube people like yourself and turn them into Hollywood movies? So now I'm seeing a Hollywood picture. I was. I got accepted into Singularity University, which is an exponential technology program. I started working with these guys on a micro satellite project to launch satellites around the globe to do imaging. It was like the coolest things in the world were falling in my lap that I was just jumping on. And I remember I went home to Seattle and I went to go meet my dad for dinner. And I got taken to a back room when I checked in at the front desk. And on one side of the table was one chair empty for me. And on the other side was my dad and three of my life mentors, including the CEO of Boeing at the time, PD Next Prize, and one of the admirals who had mentored me growing up. And I said, is everything okay, guys? They said, please take a seat. And this is when I got my first beating on the lesson of focus, focus, focus. And at that dinner, that group forced me to pick one project. Wow. And made me call everybody on speaker in front of them at the dinner table, formally quit.

Really?

And it was the most. I mean, I fought and I argued and I tried to convince them why it was all synergistic and why it all worked together. And I can tell you, best piece of advice they gave me that day. They said, if you don't get the first thing right, none of the other stuff matters. And if you get that first thing right, you'll have a platform for the rest of your life to do everything else. And that was the day that I picked Kairos. And I walked away from everything else. And if I hadn't done that, I don't think I would have been where I am today. Wow.

Can I ask you, why did you pick Kairos?

Yeah, I think of all the different opportunities that felt the most fulfilling. I mean, at the end of the day, in order to have enough energy to pursue something, you know, this man, like, to pursue something 24 hours a day, you gotta love, love, love it. Not like it?

Yeah, totally. That's an amazing story, man. I have two more questions before we wrap it up. And just from that, you know, table of mentors, they put you on the spot to make those phone calls. I think there's a lesson in there. But can you talk to me just about the value of mentorship in your life and how, you know, like you said, lifelong mentors have played a role with your success.

So people, I think, have a pretty formal definition of mentors. They look for one person to be their mentor. And there's a lot of advice out there that's like, ask people to be your mentors. Right. I feel a little bit differently. I think that, like, anybody and everybody can be a mentor in some part of your life if you just take the time to ask. And frankly, again, you've been phenomenal at this. You spend every day you have the smartest people in the world as your mentors because you get a chance to interview them and ask these questions, right? And I think people are scared sometimes to ask questions because they're worried about looking dumb. And I actually think the only way you start to look dumb is by not asking questions and not learning. And I still, to this day, try. Just anytime I meet someone, I just try to spend as much time asking them questions. And I feel, frankly, a little weird being on the other side of this today.

We share the same trait. When we were on the phone yesterday, I was like, I want to learn more about you. Question game.

No, man. There's so much to learn. Everybody's got little life experience. And the question, what you're really trying to do is just learn from other people's mistakes so you don't have to waste the time making them yourself, right? And it's never that somebody, no one has all the right answers. If you're looking for a mentor that can tell you the right answer, you'll never find it. But you can kind of add to your own life experiences by having enough people, you ask about their life experiences. And that, to me, is all mentorship really is. Someone who you can keep asking about their life, who's willing to share their experiences with you. Kind of like a collective knowledge.

Yeah, absolutely. So, last question to wrap it up. I know, you know, you're solving some massive world problems. And, you know, in a time like this, with coronavirus and everything happening, I want to ask you, just with the current problems that you're trying to solve, where do you believe the solutions can be found for other problems? Or where are you putting your you know, headspace to these other global problems. Because I think, you know, hearing it from your end of having so much experience in that world, it would fascinate the audience. And I'm definitely intrigued by everything you're doing. Yeah. So where do you see the bigger problems are in the world outside of where you're already spending your time?

Look, I think don't underestimate how big of an issue it is right now. Just like all the people you and I know, our friend, everyday people around the world just, it's too hard to make it on a day to day basis. So if you look at this like the, where the money, 90% of all the money spent in developed countries around the world. Developed, developed countries.

Right.

The United States, the United Kingdom is still just going to basic needs. Right. So every time you think that you're building something that you think somebody will want, get them in the money, it's a small percent of the population that has this discretionary spend budget. And yes, that's enough money to build big businesses on. But who wants to do that? Right. You can build things that really affect real people all over the world. And so think about that and you look at where the money's going. It's going to housing, it's going to healthcare, it's going to childcare, it's going to transportation, it's going to food, and it's going to education debt. And so those are the areas where I would look in. And what we try to do is say within those big categories, what's the simplest one feature thing that you can fix? And like I said, with renting, we started off with a really, really simple thing and the impact is massive. It's just like, why do I need to pay thousands of dollars just to move into an apartment? When you rent a car, you don't pay $20 a day for the car and then give them a $20,000 cash deposit in case you get into an accident.

Yeah.

You pay $20 a day for the car and then you have insurance. When I rent an apartment, I should pay my monthly rent and have insurance. Right.

It's so simple when you put it like that. I love is that simple.

Look, Tinder was that simple. This rhino is that simple. I think that's the key is if it's too complicated, people's attention span today as it is, it's hard enough to break through. If you solve a big problem, you gotta keep it simple as a solution too. Love that.

Well, I appreciate the insight. And Ankur, where can people learn more about everything you got going on at Kairos and you know where you're spending your time. Yeah.

Look. Please follow us on Instagram, Follow Uncorjane Yairoshq More than anything else, we need to band together to fight and solve these problems, right? When you think about the rent relief that we're trying to push through, we can't do that on our own. And the more of us, the more people in our generation around the country who can get behind these efforts and help us fight to make these changes at the state, city, at the federal level, who can get behind new innovations like this, within a year or two, we could totally upend the system. So that's. Thanks so much for having me, Casey. It's always good to chat with you.

Absolutely, man. Thanks so much for going south.

Thanks so much.

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