Joel Kocher: CEO and Co-Founder of Humann on The Super Molecule: Nitric Oxide's Life-Changing Impact

Welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today I am joined by Joel Kohler, the co-founder and CEO of Hooman. Joel, thank you so much for coming to the show today.

Casey, I'm excited. Thanks for inviting me.

It's my pleasure to have you on today. We were talking before, and in your words, you said you're quite the unicorn. And I want to start by saying, not only am I so impressed with your background, but it's one of those stories that I'm so excited to dive into because from being an executive at Dell to starting your company at 55 years old after coming out of this Fortune 500 run of the century, if you will, to actually building a supplement company that matters in a world where there is so much bad supplements, yours being clinically proven, having so many aspects that make it so unique. Excited for it. And with that said, one of my favorite autobiographies is from Michael Dell, Play Nice But Win. And before we get into the depths of HUMN and nitric oxide and all the fun rabbit holes we'll go down, your career journey, what led to getting that opportunity to work for someone like Michael Dell? And where did this hunger for executive leadership stem from early on in your childhood?

I'm not sure where came from. I always, throughout my entire life, have always seeked deeper meaning in my life, which I think in my earlier years, maybe I had no work experience. It was just wanting to do something meaningful, to make a mark somewhere. So, I was fortunate and lucky enough to become an executive in a Fortune 500 company before I ever joined Dell. In fact, when I joined Dell, you'll love this, the year before I joined Dell, $68 million in revenue. That's it. That's all. And then less than 4 years later, Fortune 500. I haven't done the math lately, but back then, set a new bar for growth, surpassed Microsoft, Walmart. It set the bar for meteoric growth.

Yeah. And $68 million, that's it. Michael Dell, he'll put on Twitter sometimes revenue by year from those early days.

And you look at it and you're like, "Oh my gosh." Hey, imagine this. Imagine this, Casey Adams. I was 28, right? And again, I was an executive in a Fortune 500 company. And I left to go to work with Michael. You know how old he was?

21, I remember you saying.

19.

19?

19. And I'll never forget my father. He thought I had lost my ever-loving mind, but I just had this sense or feeling that we were going to make a mark and we could do something with that company. It needed to be professionalized. It needed a core strategy. But we did it.

We could talk for hours about this, just that whole journey itself. But people always say hindsight's always 20/20. You look back at these generational companies, the Apples, the Dells. Is there something you can point to? Was it Michael himself that gave you that tenacity to say, "I want to bet on him"? Was it the personal computer coming-of-age internet where you're like, "You know what? This seems like a good bet." What was your mindset back then of what led to that level of conviction in something that there was no promise, there was no foresight, if you will?

I mean, my conviction quotient was really high, and it was partly Michael, but it was also just having a very strong sense of the massive groundswell that was coming. And to Michael's credit, I think he was extremely well positioned. To do something different. And here's the thing. When you think about successful tech companies, almost without exception, the meteoric ones brought a new technology to the fore, right? Dell brought no new technology to the fore. There were already 3 or 4 multibillion-dollar PC companies when Dell came on the scene. You know, there was IBM, Compaq, Toshiba, NEC. So, it was a pretty daunting challenge, but we never wavered. Maybe we were just naive in believing we could do it and change the world, but we set in place a disruptor strategy and we executed savagely, savagely. And we, you know, we delivered the outcomes.

Absolutely. I remember you saying in a different interview around, in terms of that savage execution, your days were not hour by hour, but purely like minute by minute.

I'm serious, minute by minute.

I wanted to go deeper there. Like, what does that mean? And how do you— how was it, you know, the workplace has obviously shifted and changed so much to where it is today. Back then, what did that minute-by-minute execution look like? And how does that apply to today? Like, how would you kind of draw the gap?

Well, first of all, you're never going to teach people to be like that. It's impossible. And you don't have time even if it was possible, right? So, my career has been about hiring revolutionaries. Hire revolutionaries. You are who you hire. Hire revolutionaries because revolutionaries lead to disruption. It's a mindset. Disrupt. Being a disruptor or revolutionary is not a thing, it's a mindset. So, if you hire those people, there's still no guarantees of success, but you greatly enhance the probabilities because at the end of the day, you're not going to do it yourself. You have to surround yourself with people who believe in changing the world. One of my favorite quotes I wish I was the author, Casey, but I'm not. Steve Jobs, "Those who are crazy enough to believe they can change the world are the ones who do." No truer statement ever made.

[Speaker:CASEY ADAMS] Very, very well said indeed. I love that quote. And just to kind of touch on Steve Jobs himself, I know you guys have had, back in those days, many battles, conversations, and I heard you describe him. He was an asshole, point blank. And, um, to not quote yourself, but, you know, I heard you say, excuse my language, like, go fuck yourself. Is that right? To Steve Jobs back in those days. And, you know, before we pivot to the human side of where you're spending your time today, like, talk to me about that time, because I think it's one of those conversations that I remember hearing in a podcast of, you know, it's one thing to hear it, but to put myself in your shoes of who was Steve Jobs, you know, to you, your relationship and, What did that period of your career look like during this battle of these big giant tech companies back then?

Well, he was the quintessential frenemy. I respect the hell out of him even though I said he's an asshole and he's probably a self-described asshole, but he's a smart asshole. He's the smartest guy I've ever been around and I have great respect for him. He later on asked me to come to work with him and I refused because I knew it wouldn't work. But I was actually the president of a company that was the first Macintosh clone company. It was a licensed authorized deal. Incidentally, it was all done when— after Steve Jobs had been fired, which is still hard to believe. As the CEO of Apple. And they somehow believed, I guess, that if they followed the Intel model and made it standardized, that the platform would have a better chance to win and compete with Intel. Long story short, the name of the company was Power Computing. We went from zero to $400 million run rate like that. We used a Dell build-to-order model, a Dell marketing model. And the day, Casey Adams, the day that we filed the S-1, which is the document that you filed to take a company public, Steve Jobs was renamed the CEO of Apple. And his first phone call was to me. And he said, "You know what?" He showed great respect. He said, "You guys." 'You guys have done an amazing job. In fact, in many ways, you've taken the baton away from Apple. You are leading the charge on the Macintosh platform, but I can't have it. The company has issues. You're eating our revenue. You're eating our customer base and our market share. You guys are done.' Well, I had a document and a contract that said we weren't done. Flew out there, Steve and I met, contentious meeting. Sue me, he said. So long story short, after Macworld and a couple of other public interactions, they bought us. Wow. They bought us. My preference would have been to stay the course because I think we would have prevailed. But in the end, our board chose to sell out.

I appreciate you sharing that story. I think to get a phone call the day you file the S-1, I mean, it's one of those, it's just wow type conversations. Someone that you read about these stories, you hear about back in those days. And I do want to—

That could have been a great company, by the way. That company could have, and he dismantled it after he bought it out of spite. He just wanted us out of the way. Yeah, go ahead.

I was gonna say, speaking of that, before we get into human stuff, all things acquisitions, I think even reading Michael Dell's, the first chapter of the autobiography that I love is him kind of talking about going from going public to then taking the company private, all the acquisitions they've made. In those early days and even today, how do you view acquisitions from your company now to also being an executive in a company of what makes successful ones given so many fail, so many don't kind of grow into what they could or should have been. Why do you think that is in terms of why a lot of acquisitions don't work out the way you think they do?

Well, because you can't smash culture. You just can't. Now, have you heard of a company called Web.com?

Web.com.

I'm the one that put that company together. Wow. 21 acquisitions in 18 months. It was a roll-up strategy. At the time, made a lot of sense and absolutely over the long term, it was a great thing for shareholders, but acquisitions are not for children. Integrating them is 1,000 times harder than just buying a company. Yeah. I think there's a place for acquisitions in the calculus, in the calculus of running a business, but it's got to be— the combinations have to be really compelling in order for you to take the risk because it's one of the riskiest things that you can do in business. The failure rate? Failure rate's off the charts.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, we could talk for hours about all things acquisitions. I want to bring up, and it's very consistent in this podcast, which I think fits very well into your career arc, which is what I kind of determined through a lot of conversations with founders of like this white space and time in your career. And, you know, being someone that retired when you're 49, went to try a couple of different things and realized like, hey, this is not for me. Let me go get back out there, which led to Human. When you're— when you were in that white space of, you know, you could have gone out and started any company, probably, you know, been a top executive at so many companies. What led to, A, wanting to start your own company? And I know that it was a little bit of indirect of your friend invites you to this investor presentation, you get some sparks, which we'll get into. Do your homework. Of course. But before we get to how Human started, which I have the context as well, what was that white space to you in your life, the frustrations, the thoughts, the patterns of where you could have went and continued your career?

That's really a deep question. And I think what I've come to understand is that some human beings have to have a mission. I'm one of those people. When I get up every day, I must have the mission, right? And when you think about being in retirement in your 40s, that's the dream that everybody sells you. But when you get there, it's like you can't change the world in retirement. And I think that's kind of what it comes down to. You know, if you are a rainmaker and you're a guy or gal that measures your life and achievements, what achievements are you putting on the board during retirement? You want the answer?

None.

Zero. So it just wasn't for me. Now, and people say to me, "Well, Joel, it must be because you just don't have any hobbies." Oh, I have more hobbies than most people I know. I appreciate it. It has nothing to do with it.

An insane paddleboarder, I've heard. Yes.

Sailor, surfer, and I play a lot of other sports. So that has— Casey Adams had nothing to do with it. It's just got to change the world, got to put the mark up on the board. We got one run through on this. I'm a lot older than you are. I'm on the back nine. I'm telling you, the worst nightmare for a human being is that they live a life without ever leaving a footprint in the sand. That is the ultimate nightmare.

Yeah. And when I— When I found out you were 70, it blew my mind, Joel. I mean, the level of energy, tenacity, purpose, drive, and as many other words I could rattle off here, it's so aspirational. I'm bullish on the belief of modern medicine. The 70 is the new 50 in my book. My father-in-law, he's turning 75 this year. Well, I think it's also too, and we were talking about before we started rolling here, my conversation with Larry King. I would ask myself seriously, after that conversation a lot, he was 87 years old, he had 2 strokes, he almost died many, many times. Why did he take the time to sit down with some 19-year-old kid that has a podcast and to kind of draw the lines and connect the dots here? It was through that aspect of purpose, of changing the world, through his vertical and vehicle in which he did that.

[Speaker:TIM_FERRISS] Plus, you must have made an impression on him.

[Speaker:TIM_FERRISS] One can only hope, for sure.

[Speaker:CASEY_ADAMS] Seriously, you must have made an an impression on it.

I appreciate that. But hearing that and then like seeing the journey and ride you've been on now with HUMN, it makes sense to not only see how you're changing the world, but to get into the more human side of this conversation with the time we have today. You know, you go to an investor conversation, you don't, you know, plan to start a supplement company. What I learned through this as well is you recognize, wow, nitric oxide, Nobel Prize, why isn't anyone productizing this? You obviously see an opportunity, you sense an opportunity, and I draw that parallel to back in the Dell conversation of having that conviction. What gave you the conviction to want to productize something that had this notoriety that was so backed by just physicians and clinical studies to be the one that actually productizes it successfully? What gave you that conviction when you were first coming into the space?

[Speaker:Casey Adams] With total and complete humility. I think that is my superpower. Is that I can spot opportunity where others may not, right? I spotted it at Dell. I don't think anybody believed.

Yeah.

Maybe not even Michael, who knows, right? You know, that that could be a, what are they, $98 billion company today? I have to tell you, I believed that from the first day I walked in there. This opportunity with Hooman, you know, spoke to this Nobel Prize laureate. You hear the story. And you go, "Why have I never heard this before? The world needs to hear this story. This is a super molecule. This is a super molecule. Why is no one doing anything about this?" Think of the opportunity, not only the commercial opportunity, but the life opportunity, right? And that's what I saw in this. I am a capitalist. I don't make any apologies for that. But to wake up every single day and know that every single time you sell a product, you are helping humanity, you are helping the world, that drives me. That drives the people that are in our company, right? And the mission is clear. I can't even in my wildest dreams imagine being in a company that's selling pencils, right? It's like, How do you get motivated and inspired? You know, for us, it's easy. But I think when you, in the end analysis, say it was like, you ever watch the movie Braveheart? Yes. You know, William Wallace, which who knows if it's true, but that speech, you know, he gives about freedom, right? From this day to that, you know, just one day telling our children, you know, that's how I, that's how I've always thought about life.

Absolutely.

About life.

Yeah. You know, I'll probably butcher the quote and I believe it's Steve Jobs, but what did he say? It's like, if you want to go out throughout your life selling sugar water, do it. But if you want to come change the world, come work for Apple. Was that the quote? Something along those lines.

That's what was purported.

Yeah. Yeah, indeed. I could see Steve saying, you know, The, this idea of changing the world and in a world, and I've had a lot of founders on the show, some supplement companies, some tech. And I think in this world of social media, which you know very well, there's so much misinformation out there. And, you know, I'm sure as you take so much pride and I respect so much around, you know, you said point to another company that has the amount of clinical studies that we have at HUMN. And for those that may, I know we've talked about bits and pieces briefly so far on nitric oxide, this miracle molecule, without getting into the depths of the scientific access that people can, of course, go to the links below and kind of learn more about it. What is it about human nitric oxide that makes it something that's, in your words, like life-changing and world-changing overall?

You know, first of all, I took very seriously this discovery. Nobel Prize for Medicine discoveries are unique. And that should speak alone for how critical— it's the most critical molecule in your cardiovascular system. You have about 60,000 miles of blood vessels in your body that service the 35, 36 trillion cells in your body. There's not a more important molecule in your body than that. So when I think about the responsibility that goes with that, And it's just my general nature. You know, when we started the company and incepted it out of a University of Texas partnership, you know, we looked at the marketplace and quickly I think you come to the conclusion it's not regulated enough. People are putting these products in their body. We want to be— we want to set the bar for how this should be done. I would proffer that probably 99% of companies that are in the supplement business have no real science. We've always had at least one, we currently have two in-house scientists. We have a chief cardiologist, we have a chief medical officer. We've done 12 of our own clinical trials. We are born from science. We believe in science. These people are seeking efficacy when they're seeking products to help with their heart health. And so we've, we've always taken the high road because in my view, that's the only road to take. And I, it, it gives me great consternation that so many of these supplement companies are not held to the standard that they should be held to.

Very well said. Speaking in terms of the product and, you know, just people learning about it today, let's say, right? I'm so curious around something like nitric oxide and it being this, you know, cardiovascular health in America. I've had a lot of doctors on the show as well as like the number one leading cause of death. When it comes to when you start taking something like HUMIN and the different variety of products you have, What is the— I'm just curious to hear, like, for someone like myself who may be 25 that starts taking it versus someone who's in their late 50s, 60s, 70s, like, are there differences, of course, of when you start taking a supplement and how it can be beneficial? Or what's sort of the maybe the top level research?

That is the question, really. So America has heart health or cardiovascular health wrong, because when you say the word cardiovascular the first thing they think of is heart. The second thing they think of is old. Couldn't be further from the truth. Cardiovascular health. I told you about those 50,000, 60,000 miles of blood vessels. That is the super performance highway of your entire body. Every single one of those 37 trillion cells would die in 3 minutes if they were not delivered oxygen and nutrients, right? So when you think about whether you're you, Casey Adams, or you're me, and we're in two different generations, One of the most important systems, if not the most important system in your body, is your cardiovascular system. And this nitric oxide molecule begins to naturally decline in your 30s.

Got it.

Interesting. You ever heard of VO2 max? Yep. Wow. VO2 max. Some of these celebrity doctors who know what they're talking about. Saying, whoa, VO2 max, number one marker of healthspan. Have you had to turn— heard the term healthspan versus lifespan?

Yeah, absolutely. I think Whoop and all these companies are talking about healthspan, and it starts declining at 1% per year starting in your 30s or early 40s.

Ah, do you think it's a coincidence that nitric oxide and VO2 max decline at the same rate at the same point in, in your life? So I would say cardiovascular health is everybody health. Cardiovascular health is everything health. We're working to change that narrative away from just being, oh, wait a second, it's just heart? No, it's not just heart. It's the 60,000 miles of blood vessels that connect every single function in your body. And secondly, no, it's not just for older people. It's for all of us. In fact, I saw, I believe it was just last week or the week before, the American Heart Association made a press release that said they recommend to physicians now they start checking cholesterol health in the 30s because they're now seeing it become a prevalent problem in the 30s, not in the 50s. But in the 30s. How old are you, Casey Adams?

25.

Okay. Well, you have 5 years left before you start checking your cholesterol.

You know, I was just going to mention that, you know, my family historically, very high cholesterol. I've— this idea of proactive health, getting blood panels and all this stuff. I already have high cholesterol and it's— this is probably 2 years ago and I was like 22, 23. And they're telling me all these things to do, get your blood checked every 6 months. And I I think there's this idea, I think in my generation, at least from the peers I associate with, of proactiveness around health or around quality supplements in terms of things like Whoop and all the different products that are out there, maybe on the hardware side. But yeah, it's interesting you bring that up because I think it's one of the things I think about, how can I be preventative and kind of not have to close my eyes and wake up when I'm 35 to say, "Oh, wow, this is a problem." Do you know what drives me crazy? Let's hear it.

Green drinks, liver cleanses. What?

Yeah.

What people— what is more foundational to longevity than cardiovascular health? I mean, you said it yourself. I didn't say it. You said it. What's the number one killer of human beings in the world? Cardiovascular. It's not cancer. So we're working so hard to get people to understand that and comprehend that, that this is something that should be centerline focus, centerline focus for every human being once they become an adult to get focused on the performance. And it's not even a longevity thing, it's also a performance thing. When you think about blood vessels to the brain, blood vessels to digestive system, blood vessels to your skeletal system. It literally enables or optimizes every single aspect of the human body. That's why I call it the super performance highway.

I mean, when I, when I heard that fact around 60,000 miles, I'm like, blow your mind, feet, mile, like, whoa, it is.

Isn't that crazy?

It's insane to think about.

It's crazy. And Yet at the same time, it's factual.

I'm so interested to kind of draw this parallel of when it comes to nitric oxide, cardiovascular health being this foundational pillar of you could do all the little one-off supplements, green things that might make— they might not make an impact. And you have this one thing that if that goes wrong, everything else fails.

That's right.

How do you draw that parallel to business when it comes to hiring, whether that's fundraising, being a leader? What is that foundational layer of human inside of your business? And maybe how has that changed throughout the years?

Wow. What an interesting question. I've never been asked that question.

Love that.

It may go back to what I had said a little bit earlier. You are who you hire. People are the through line. It's so easy, especially I think when you're in business, especially as an entrepreneur, you start thinking about stuff and things when the true answer always lies, always lies in the human race and who you surround yourself with. I've spent through my career a disproportionate amount of time interviewing. I remember I interviewed every single person that came to work in my organization at Dell until every single day my calendar was now over 50%, right? Interviewing. And I do the same thing at Hooman. I interview every single person that comes to work here because you are who you hire. And I think when you think about revolutionaries and you think about you want to change the world, it blows my mind that CEOs delegate that to someone else. It just blows my mind. So the through line, your people.

Yeah. For advice to founders out there, early on in a company's journey, there's a lot of early stage founders that listen to this show where in the beginning, that 2, 5, 10 person initial hires, how does that change from your perspective? From at Dell when your calendar's packed, there's thousands of employees, tens of thousands of employees in that sense, does it still come down to that simple truth of you are who you hire or how does the fundamentals change?

Yeah, let's not even compare it to Dell if you're okay with that. Let's even compare it to a successful startup that's in the scale-up, right? Again, my fundamental belief is you are who you hire. The end. Now, having said that, getting the organization to believe and have a high conviction quotient around being revolutionaries, right? That most entrepreneurs or most entrepreneurial companies are driven by innovation. Innovation typically seeks white space. White space typically seeks the ability to do something that others cannot. Now, you prove that you have a viable through line and everybody and their mother is going to copy you. Some of them may be even better copiers than you are an innovator. So, what ultimately is going to ensure your long-term success. It's your people. But as a leader, you have to always be cognizant, especially as a startup entrepreneur, what got me here is never going to get me there. So, when you move from 5 to 7 people to 27, 28, 37, 38, being honest about, okay, I was the guy to start this. Am I really an operator? If you're not, hire one.

Yeah.

Hire one. You've proven that you're the innovator. You've proven your ability to seek and find white space, but that's very different than the challenges that present themselves in a scale-up. Don't be so egotistical that you don't go out and seek a partner.

Yeah.

You don't have to make them a— quote-unquote ownership partner, but find that operator so that you— because that is what is going to determine whether you make it to 100 employees or not. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Very well said. I have a couple more questions before we kind of start wrapping up here, and I could talk for hours around scaling and that in terms of that to retail distribution. And I want to give a big shout out to our mutual friend now, Mark, from that podcast where I think you guys went super deep there, which I'll make sure to link that below. But something, a story I heard that I wanted to bring up that will correlate to something I would want to ask you, which is, as someone who's an avid athlete and adventurous paddleboarder, there's a story I heard where you were out a couple miles out in the ocean paddleboarding and a tiger shark was following you along for an hour. And I'll let you kind of dive into the story a bit more here, but that aspect around being paranoid and kind of in the business context of someone's out to kill you, how do you draw that parallel of only the paranoid survive from real life instances that I'd love to have you dive into, to business in terms of like, what are you paranoid about today? In this world of AI, things are changing so fast. It's different on the supplement side than maybe on the technology side, but just business overall, there's a lot to be paranoid about, I think, for first-time founders and people starting businesses today around how the world's changing. But I want to anchor it in this story of this encounter that you had when you were paddleboarding and how you handled that situation of being paranoid in a life-or-death situation.

Where'd you get that quote, "Only the paranoid survive"?

It's a book, and I'm forgetting the—

Andy Grove. Yeah, Andy Grove. I knew Andy and I were friends. Amazing. He's one of the founders of Intel. He was much older than me. He took me under his wing a little bit back in the Dell days.

It's amazing.

It made an impact on me. Only the paranoid survive. I like to modify it slightly. Only the paranoid thrive. But I think at the end of the day, it made a huge impact on, on me. And I've always run my businesses that way. And I would recommend that anybody in the audience that is a business person, that they process that and employ it in their repertoire. As far as the shark experience was concerned, um, yeah, it was more like 5— well, might have been 7 miles offshore. I was by myself, which I like to do. My wife isn't wild about the idea. Um, but he harassed me for an hour. He or she. I'm not sure which. The shark was every bit as big as my, as long as my paddleboard, which was 12 feet, maybe even slightly larger. And you got to remember in that instance, as in business, right? You think all sharks are created equal, just like all humans are not created equal. There's crazy sharks. There's nice sharks. There's not nice sharks. There's cheaters. There's, you know, whatever. So, I think that was just really that moment was exciting. I mean, I'd be less than honest if I didn't tell you that I was excited by it, but at the same time thrilled with a similar situation in business, not so much, but it is reality when we live in the business environment that we live in, no matter how good your idea. No matter how good you are at innovation, by virtue of capitalism, there's always going to be somebody bigger, meaner, badder, nastier, more comfortable in their environment than maybe you are. Institutionalized copycatting, better capitalized. So, you better run like hell. It's just the normal state. Run like hell and never be comfortable and always prioritize the right things. You know, I see— you didn't ask me, but I want to impart this thought. It drives me crazy when early-stage entrepreneurs want to talk about exits.

Yeah.

Why? That is like a guarantee of failure. You have not earned the right to talk about exits. Focus, deliver, satisfy your customer, do the right thing, get the business to the point of scale up, and then you can think.

Yeah.

You can think, right?

100%.

Doesn't that make sense?

Yeah.

It's like my pet peeve. I just don't understand why people want to think that way. And I think long-term, what's going to hit the mark and you'll know it is if you build a great business with happy customers, driven employees, fulfilling your company's mission, the exit takes care of itself. You don't have to expend one second on it.

Very well said.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.

I'm so glad you brought that up. And we'll have to do a part 2 someday and dive into all the nuances of speaking about exits and everything. And I want to end on a more exciting topic and a question that I love and I'm so curious about. Throughout this conversation, you talk about being mission-driven, you talk about in your life being on the back nine. When it comes to where you spend your time today in business and personal life, what excites you the most? About what you're doing, and how has that changed throughout the years?

It has— in some ways it's changed, in some ways it hasn't. Um, I love endurance sports. I've participated in endurance sports my entire life. Um, I do love paddling. 7 miles out in the ocean by myself.

Intense.

I think I paddled over the last 3 years, I've paddled over 5,000 miles, right?

My goodness.

And I take a lot of pride in that. I love doing that. It's my time. And that's why I do it by myself. You know, it's my time. By the same token, you know, I love leading. I love helping others achieve their life goals. Including my own family. I have children that are now adults, and I don't impose my will on their thinking. They're all very different. They all have different thought processes. But I'm happy to say that they seek my counsel from time to time, and that gives me a tremendous amount of self-satisfaction.

I love that. Very well said. And I could have a whole conversation around this. And we'll end on this as well. Just, I got married last year. Congratulations. I appreciate it. When you're building a business and thinking about having kids, just, I'd love to get your advice to your younger self as we wrap up here of, as a young dad, as someone who's building a family while having these just ambitious career pursuits, How did you manage that? And what would you leave myself, but maybe also the listeners here with today on that front?

A couple thoughts, if I could.

Please.

One, do it right, not quick. That applies to business as well. Do it right, not quick. Second is don't forget that when you're younger, like when you're your age, Casey, you're a time a billionaire, right? I'm not. I love that analogy. I'm not a time billionaire, right? And as you progress through life, if there's any mistake that I made, it's not being more self-aware of those moments with people in my life that were older, like my parents, right? You have sort of this innate sense that your parents are going to live forever, that everybody's going to live forever. They're not. And when you do the calculus around, like, let's just say when I was 50, if I had literally sat down and said, because my parents lived in a different state, if I had literally sat down and done the math, how many more times am I going to see my parents, right, on my current trajectory? It would have shocked me into action. It would have shocked me. So, it's just that, you know, just being more aware of time because you get so wrapped up in your own life, your own mission, your own legacy that sometimes you forget that it's tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock.

Yeah. I appreciate that. Well, Joel, I want to be respectful of your time and first say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today. And we'll definitely have to do a round 2 in a handful of years. I'll get out to Austin.

I know, I know, I know.

We'll definitely make it happen. Some of my favorite interviews are round 2. I've had Robert Greene on my show, the author, 4 times.

Is that right?

Just every time it's like this, you can just keep going. So I really do.

I really enjoy this conversation. Next time, maybe we can— we can double-click on that startup to scale up.

Yeah, 100%. And I know you have a lot of great resources out there, but next time I'd love to. So thank you so much, Joel. I appreciate it.

It was a pleasure.

Of course.