Bjoern Woltermann - CEO of Katalyst: Revolutionizing Fitness with EMS Technology

All right, welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today we are joined by Bijorn Walterman, the founder and CEO of Catalyst. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Thanks, Casey, for having me.

Of course. So, first off, I know we were just catching up a little bit before we dove in here, but I am not only a huge fan of your product and what you've built at Catalyst, but as a new customer and user, I'm so excited for this conversation because I have so many questions personally and. And I know even just from the lens of me talking about what Catalyst is to friends and family, more recently, they have questions and they're so intrigued. So before we dive into everything, please give us just a super high level of what Catalyst is before we really dive into the journey and story.

Yeah, of course. So Catalyst is a full body muscle stimulation training device. What we're using is, as I said, muscle stimulation, which we've been using for about 60 years in physiotherapy. So people might have like, tens units or like stim units, like after surgeries, like when you had knee surgery or had hip issues or your Achilles heel blew up or like something like that. Physicians, for a long period of time now, now roughly 60 years, have been using stimulation pads that you put on local areas to train your muscles, recover them, and actually make them stronger and healthier, but in a injured form. So in this weakest form of the muscle, how can you train them? And muscle stim is the way to go. So about 20 years ago, 25 years ago, some German engineers were wondering, like an exercise scientist, like, why do we wait to use this until we get injured? Like, you know, if this, like, works and if it's a great way to, like, strengthen muscles, like, why don't we use this preemptively and very, very early on. The Russians used it in the 70s because, like, they wanted Olympians to, like, run faster. And once of a sudden, there were like, Olympians from Russia in the 100 meter sprint that no one had really on the, on the scene. And then they had to deal with like, mere space station, and they had to recover people after they came back and lost a lot of muscle mass and all these things. So the idea basically is that we have built a suit that has 26 stimulation areas that are strategically arranged all over your body, and they are mapping your main muscle groups, your major muscle groups, and these major muscle groups then get fired through the control unit that sits on your suit while you are working out. So, for example, if you do A biceps curl while you work out. And by the way, the whole suit is active all the time. So even if you do a biceps curl, so you do a. A dynamic movement on your arms, your lower body still gets an isometric extension. So when you do a biceps curl, your biceps is not working against the weight in your hands, but it is working against your triceps, your antagonist of the biceps, to basically create the resistance for the biceps. So whenever there is a motion where one muscle is working against another muscle, you don't only have the concentric training piece of the biceps, but you also have the eccentric training piece of the triceps. So now think about this all over the body, like with your spine and your abs and your glutes and your quads and your hamstrings. So the suit really helps you create a better connection to your body while you're working out. And what we have done is we have taken this technology that was originally just available for trainers and physicians and physiotherapy, and created it into a very, very simple and easy to use and easy to care for product that's kind of like, in better terms, like the peloton of Electromaster stimulation training. You have your iPad or your iPhone, you have a streaming service and all the content on it that tells you what to do, but it also comes with all the telemetry, so you don't have to control the suit. The suit is being controlled by the trainer that is on the screen while you work out.

And get. Yeah, it's crazy, man. Like, as a. And just to interject quickly, the first time I put it on, which is like probably a week and a half ago or two weeks ago, you know, it's like that. You get used to it. You're like, wow. Like the ability to have that trainer that's making them adjustments like that specific. And I have the Apple watch, so you can, like go up or down on the. You know how strong it is. Very cool. And unlike something I've ever experienced in terms of, like the trainer being able to increase or decrease what's happening to your workout. In a sense, yeah.

This was very important for us in the. In the whole experience design because it takes a lot of attention to control 26 different areas of a suit. And the analogy that I have, and I used this when I designed this product, was someone is playing the piano in the old tech. So the trainer is working on the device to allow you to have music, the customer to dance. Now, if we want to build a home product, I Cannot let the customer play the piano and dance at the same time. So it doesn't work. So this was like the design philosophy that we really put in when we designed this product. So we had to really cover everything in technology and record the trainer. And even the trainer has like scripted stuff when they are recording it so that they can focus on the camera and on creating the content. So for us, it's really important to have a great customer experience and simplify this amazing technology.

That is exactly what you did. Even, just even prior to this show, like doing the research and hearing some other podcasts. I remember hearing I want to dive into this. You were training to be a pilot, is that correct?

Yes, originally I was in the Air Force.

You're in the Air Force, you have a back injury or you can't sit down for long periods of time. And it's like this injury that sets you down a different path. And I want to reference that because I even as someone that grew up playing sports for 10, excuse me, hockey for 10 years, lacrosse and football. Sophomore year of high school, I got injured playing football, ended up in a neck brace for six months, nearly paralyzed. And for me, like that moment, it completely changed how I think about not only my future and the recovery process, but, you know, since that moment, I've really never done a lot of squatting or like super intense upper body movements because I know that I have to live with this like constant inflammatory spine related injury. And over the years, you know, as I've run marathons and have had some injuries here and there, it always comes back to like, okay, how can you recover better? How can you, you know, stretch more? How can you do things that aren't as, you know, hard on the joints and all the things that lead to injury? And that's something I want to touch on with Katalyst is what you said of, you know, tens units. I remember I heard the word tinge unit growing up so many times because my dad unfortunately had two back surgeries when I was, you know, in my teenage years. And he had to live with a 10 unit on to, you know, he can't do all these big movements. So like, talk to me about that process in your life of dealing with injuries, dealing with something that made you recognize, hey, I can't just go out and do, you know, the standard workouts that everyone talks about, the heavy this, the heavy that, because you guys have really reverse engineered the framework of what it means to really do so in a positive way?

Yeah. So as I said, I had an Inline skate accident while I was in the Air Force and in Germany back in the days. And they x rayed my lower spine and they said, like, ugh, you have a very narrow L3, L4, L5 disc connection. So. And little bit of. Quite a bit of scoliosis. I'm 6 4. So, like, you shouldn't be sitting in planes with high vibration environments for periods of time. So becoming a pilot was like, out of the game, which I wanted to do at that point in time. And I just like went on with my life. But I never really lifted heavy. I never went to the gym, like, lifting really, because I also didn't want to load it so much. So I was a runner. I was decently in shape. So if people look at pictures, they would say, you're in shape. I was about 180, 185 pounds, best case, 180 pounds, 6 4, but probably like 18, 19% body fat. So it's like skinny fat. But people would say, like, oh, healthy. No, not healthy. Right. So like slim, but not healthy. Like skinny fat, I would say. And so years later, I was in tech. I spent 150 years, 50 days a year on a plane. Yeah, but passenger seat, so still sitting in a plane 150 days a year, like, so that didn't help. And I was on painkillers 20 days a month. Could hardly get out of bed. And, yeah, really, really shitty times. And my physician literally told me, we're either going to have to operate in a year, you going to quit your job, or you strengthen your core. Those are your three options. And I was like, I don't want to get operated, I don't want to quit my job. What do I have to do to strengthen my core? And he sent me to a personal Training Studio in 2012 in Berlin, Germany, where they used early version of this technology, which had like, wires everywhere. And like, you know, someone was literally like, you know, turning knobs on it. And I was like, what is this? Like, you know, does it make sense? Like, you know, and then he said, oh, by the way. And it's just 20 minutes. I said, now you lose me. It's too good to be true. It's like literally too good to be true. So I tried it, and within like three minutes, you're sweating, you're like, okay, what's going on? Like, you know, you feel your body like you've never felt it before, and two days later you are sore as never before. Like, really like that. And I was like, whoa, like, what just happened? So I gave it a shot and I went every Monday at 6pm and six weeks later, I woke up on a Sunday morning and I told my wife, I haven't taken a pill in a week and I can get out of bed without this weird role that you do when you have back pain. Like, you know, you do this weird role to get out of bed.

And.

Yeah, and I was just absolutely fascinated. And that started me going down the rabbit hole. What is this? What could it do to people? Can we do this better? And then I by accident found out that year that it didn't exist in the US And I was like, makes no sense. Because normally for us Europeans, all the new tech comes from the US So this was like the moment that kind of started it all.

No, that's fascinating to hear. It's, you know, you're dealing with your own problem and you recognize an opportunity. You, you're in Germany at the time, right? And I remember you saying there was like 500 or so locations that you could go to to do this, you know, EMS technology.

Yeah.

You know, one thing that I love asking founders is, you know, I love the simple theory of, you know, it takes the same amount of time to think small as it does to think big. And, you know, you're both, you're going to have big problems or small problems in both of those journeys. Like, you then, like, talk to me about the earliest days and when you're going through this transition of, hey, like, how do I bring this to the US Right, all the regulations, all of, you know, you're dealing with this EMS technology. That is not something that is just like simple and easy. Oh, take a pill and everyone can do it. It's like, no, it's a very strenuous process and you've had to iterate so much from, I'm sure, from the initial versions. But how did you think about building this company and this path that was just covered with hurdles, restrictions, legal things you got to bypass. What were you doing then, I think is also something I want to dive into of. Like, what did your day to day look like? What were you working on prior to, and what was that, you know, catalyst for, in a lack of a better word, to transition to this next path that you're on today.

So between me finding the technology and quitting my job was a little bit less than three years, actually was actually a little bit of time in between. So finding it out six months later, finding the technology, becoming a customer, my wife becomes a customer. Six months later, we are sitting in Beverly Hills, and we learn that they don't have it. And I was like, what? Like, how is that possible? I went back home, researched. Why is that? It's regulatory. It's like in the us Part. Part. Muscle stimulators are a medical device class where in Europe, it's consumer electronics. It's the same as your hair dryer, Pretty much. So. So that's one of the differences.

And.

Okay, interesting. So I gave all the current manufacturers back in the days. They still exist. Many of them still exist. Gave a call and I said, hey, guys, I can get you to the US let's get this going whatsoever. The first one says, like, we're too busy. The second one, we don't speak English. The next one said, basically, F off. If I want to be in la, I'm going to be there in four weeks. It only took them like six years or so. But, hey, I rounding era no one actually wanted to do it. And the fourth company was afraid for litigation. Like, if you spill coffee over your hand, you get sued for millions of dollars. So the US Is a scary place for people that don't understand how this country works. And so I was like, okay, no one wants to do it. Interesting. And so I went to a few fitness trade shows and wanted to find out who makes these devices and who are these guys actually, and how do they show up. So again, a few months later, we went to fibo, which is the largest fitness conference in the world. It's like, in Cologne every year. It's absolutely massive. So it's kind of like the CES of fitness. If you haven't been, you should go. It's so big. It's like, I've not been. It's a.

Sounds incredible.

And so it's like the multiple, like, you know, it's six times.

That's incredible.

And so again, more. And then how do you do it? And then what's needed? And I've never done hardware in my life. So I did like, software and cloud and business and all these things and design and product, but never done hardware. So, like, what does it take? And I also took a device a year later to the US on one of my trips. So I bought a device and brought it over to the US and I had 20 friends try the workout in a hotel suite.

Okay.

And then I gave him a questionnaire. So is this for Americans? Are they gonna like it? Is there something. Maybe there's a reason, maybe it's rightfully so that it's not here. And everybody told me, like, I love the workout. I want my own suit, not a shared one because I don't want to sweat into someone else's suit and I want to do it in my home. And that was in 2013, before Peloton launched. And that was very interesting. And I was like, whatever. So I literally like the home thing at the beginning I just dismissed and I said like, yeah, whatever. Like, because they were on every corner in Europe.

Yeah, yeah, right.

It's kind of like saying like, you know, bakeries, like, you know, we don't want bakeries anymore or hairdressers. I need a computer that does my hair on my home. Like, no, we have hairdressers. It's okay. Yeah, right. So that was actually the first thing. But then as you said, like, think larger. I said, I want to do this. And I wrote down a mission statement, like, what do I want to achieve with this? And there were like two aspects to this. The first one was I saw an opportunity of a injury risk free, time efficient, no impact training technology that helps people like myself. Yeah. So that in itself is compelling. But then I was training every Monday beside a 60 year old woman and I was like, okay, this is truly different. And now like as a behavioral economist, like now my behavioral brain comes in, it's like, wait, I'm not the customer to go to the heavy lift gym. She's not the customer to go to the heavy lift gym. What are we doing here? Okay, great. So this is truly different. It is truly a technology that only doesn't. And this is like how I basically deducted it at the end of the day. So in behavioral science, like BJ forecast is like very famous model bmap. Behavior is a function of motivation, ability and a prompt. So if you're highly motivated, you even overcome low ability. If you are highly capable, you don't need a lot of motivation. That's kind of what it says. Right. So you or like any younger person, if I ask a younger person run 100 meters, easy. If I asked like an 85 year old person run 100 meters, ability is so low, even if I give them a million bucks, wouldn't happen. Yeah, right. So at some point in time your ability is limiting. Your, your, your, your is basically the limiting factor of you basically doing something.

Yep.

And I just looked at like, why is this different? Why do I see this person here, not somewhere else? And this is really important. It's like, and Simon Sinek says like start with why. I truly believe that's the case. I believe he has to Ask why five times. Like, the first question right here.

One of my favorite books.

Yeah. And yes. But, like, I think you have to, like, keep asking why and why is that? And why is that really the case and where is that coming from? And then, then you, like, you know, get, get to the core. And then I looked at, like, all the fitness tech that existed, and by this time, Palatron has just launched.

Yep.

And we had Fitbits, and, you know, I think the Apple Watch didn't exist yet. No, Apple Watch didn't exist yet, but we had trackers and we had training plans, we had apps and we had content.

Got it. And this is. What is this? 2013?

14.

Yeah, 2013. 10 years ago. Yes.

Yeah, 10 years ago. So all that we do in tech, in fitness is motivation. We either tell you what to do, or we told you what you did or not do.

Yeah.

Right. So totally. And, and, and that's the fundamental difference that I found. Where technology normally makes things easier. Right. So the phone makes a million things easier. Car makes it easier to get to a different city. A plane makes it easier to get. Different country. So technology is always great when it makes things easier. And in fitness, we only shout at people or motivate them.

Yeah, no, it's like, in different forms.

Different forms. And it's not a bad thing. And like, I love companies that I get people moving. But Also, we know 17% in the US only have a gym membership. 17% of the population. The others don't even try.

Wow.

Right? We know that 80% are overweight, 42% are obese. It's like, whatever we've been trying over the last 20 years or longer does not work.

Yeah, that is. And something. And I think you're probably getting here. But I heard you say, you know, you. The catalyst is like a roller coaster. Right. You get to get into this piece of technology and it works with you and for you, rather than just, you know, in your reference of shouting at you and trying to tell you what to do. Like, it does it for you.

Yes. It's still hard and you still have to earn it.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Right.

So you're working with it, but it helps you work with it. Right. So it helps you, like, okay, this is how it's supposed to feel. Or if you're, if you're not fully flexing a muscle, you at least get a little bit of a flex on it. And then like, oh, yeah, this is what I am supposed to do. So you, you learn much more about your body, especially around the lower back and the abs and obliques. It's really, really hard to train all these, like, small muscles around your spine. So the system is actually doing it for you in these cases. Like, how do you flex these muscles? Some people don't know that they actually have them or how to engage them. And we all glute weak because we're sitting so much as we do now, right. So, like, we're all glued weak and feeling like, oh, this is how it's supposed to feel. Like, it's also. It helps you and teaches you. Exactly. It's not just showing you a picture and tells you what to do. And. And that is what's making the big difference in this technology.

Absolutely. And a question for you as someone that recently received the product. What is the best way you would describe the sensation of what someone can expect when putting on the suit? And once it starts activating, I mean.

We have people using different. Different words. It's like, some people say it's like a squeeze. Some people say it starts like a massage. Some people say it's like, feels like a vibration. I think, like, different people have, like, different ways how they feel about it. It's also, there's a plus and a minus button where you can, like, increase, crease and decrease. And some people immediately go like, hey, come on, like, give me something. And some are a little bit slower. And like, that's actually a beautiful thing because you can dictate your own pace and in which you want to, like, start going there. Like, are you a little bit like, let me do the first one and let's see how it goes. And then some people are like, oh, come on, bring it on. Like, you know, everybody can do it on their own.

That was me. I had to really work into it, like, the first two, three times. Like, the first one to kind of not caught me off guard. Like, I've done some, like, 10 units on my back before, but, like, the sensation where you're like, whoa. Like, you know, in the gym, you're. You're very focused on one core thing. So the ability to have many muscle groups activating and then compressing into them. It's such a unique feeling that once, at least from my personal perspective, once you do it, I've started ramping up in terms of the ability and the sensation and really getting into it, which is incredible to experience. And I guess just spend some time for a couple questions that I have personally that I think a lot of people could either learn from or even just get an insights on as someone that, you know, if, if I give you like, you know, here's my physical activity circuit, right? Like, I'm typically in the gym four or five days a week. Like one of my producer with my podcast and good friend, he's a bodybuilder. So like, he'll take me some, do some movements, but he's also very practical where he doesn't do like crazy heavy like squats or deadlifts. It's like very great form focus workouts. But I'm also a runner where I, I do one marathon every year. My plans to do the next six years, all six major marathons in the world. I've done two so far. So, you know, I also deal with, you know, just trying to be focused on endurance and longevity and, you know, not getting injured. As someone that is already active. Like, where does Catalyst best fit in their life or their training regimen for a race or for, you know, something that you're training for in a sense. Yeah.

So everyone, pretty much everyone on this planet is lacking strength training. We've been like working on cardio, Cardio, cardio, like, you know, for like decades. And generally, like, people are like, you know, easier with that. Like lifting weights is generally the things that fall short. And then when we lift weights and when we're already fit, we always have our favorite movements and our favorite motions and then there are certain muscle groups which we neglect. And we all have disbalances. Right, left, front, back. We always have these, these areas. So the first thing where Catalyst really shines is like strength and speed development, not endurance. Like we also do that. But the thing where it really shines is like strength and power development, which is like type one and type two muscle fiber engagement. So I would really start there. And this is what people generally do. Like, you know, do the strength trainings and do the power trainings and do this about twice a week and fit it somewhere in your. Either on a strength day or on a day where you not do anything or like you try to get something extra in. Always leave two to three days in between your workouts so that your body has time to recover. And what you're going to find is you individually are going to find areas where you're going to be sore two days after. And they might be different for different people. Some people are like more so on their arms, some people more so they're glued. Some people say like, oh, my back is like, you know, I have like my, my leg lats are sore and, and so on. So Forth and that those are generally the muscle groups that are the weakest for a person. And like, you know, or like where you just hit like, plus a lot. Right. Because you can adjust individual muscle groups as you like. So the first thing that active people are going to find is that they're going to balance their body out. Runners, for example, are notoriously lower back weak.

Yeah, right.

We're strong around our legs and then our upper body is like, you know, has to stabilize. But connecting the two, that's generally like where things fall apart. So, yeah, I would say strength training is the place to go. Do it about twice a week and then your body is going to tell you roughly, like where things are. And you also, when you're active, you have a good, you know, notion of like where your body generally is and you're not going to really bulk up right away. It's like you're just going to get stronger with the muscles you have.

Absolutely. No, that's, that's super great to hear, even for me. Coming. You hit around in the nail. I, you know, I run a lot. I try to, you know, I'm in the gym as well, but I dealt with a back injury last year, like a lumbar strain. And then just like probably a month ago I was doing a movement rowing and ended up hurting my back. I couldn't go to the gym for like two, three weeks. And now I'm super focused on back, like strength training. And I know that the catalyst is, can be super helpful with this, but it's just like injuries like that for me, really just, you know, they allow you to take a step back and say, okay, how do I approach things differently? And I know that you guys, you guys are solving for that, but I want to dive into the business journey as I spoke about before, right. Like big, hard problems. What has been of a defining moment in the company that you look back on and say, like, wow, like, you know, whether that's FDA approval or, you know, getting the first product to market in the consumer's hands, like, what's been a defining moment for you as a founder that you can reflect on and say, hey, like, that was a big moment for us and maybe you didn't recognize at the time, but looking back, that was huge.

First of all, I think we are sometimes lucky that we don't know all the things that we're going to face because, like, you know, it's already a lot and, you know, just chip them off one at a time and whatever comes, like, you know, go for it we had like, we had a lot of different big moments, like first approval, second approval or clearance. It's like, it's actually called clearance for a 510k first clearance, second clearance, which was like for a studio product, this was for a prescription product. So whenever there's a new product coming to the medical field, it's always cleared as a prescription device. And then afterwards it's cleared as a over the counter device if the FDA says like, hey, it's so easy to use and it's so safe that we can give it into end consumers without supervision. And so in the document there's like a checkbox and like getting the checkbox not in the prescription, getting it into the over the counter box, that's probably the biggest, that was probably the biggest move. And we're the only company that we're aware of that has that, that has like, you know, clearance in here. So being able to mass, like, you know, to mass offer this, right. So you don't have to live in an inner city where like you have a studio just around the corner and personal training is expensive. So being able to like offer this in a peloton use case, this was probably the biggest single moment of like getting that clearance. But getting there was really tough because first of all, we had it to create technology that didn't exist. So in 2019, when we made the switch, or late 2018, early 2019, I decided, okay, now we're going to make the switch from prescription to like, you know, home use case. We weren't unfortunately, like the supply chain wasn't stable enough to survive Covid, so we weren't really ready for Covid. But in 2019, we had to develop so many things and solve so many problems that haven't been solved before and had never been done before. Right. So it was literally an invention a day that we had to make. It's almost like that rate that we had to go through to build something like this. And, and a lot of it's under the hood. It's like not even, we don't even talk about this. Like the analogy that I always use is to build a, to give this to a computer. Like it's not a person guessing and judging like how it feels. You actually have to know, you have to make it measurable.

Yeah.

And the analogy would be like before you can build a ac, you need a thermometer to know what temperature it is. And we even had to build that. We even had to like, we even had to invent the thermometer. To know like, do we need more or less and what's the measure of that? And then we have to do this in real time and all of that. So, so there was just a lot that we had to like, baseline invent. Then we're the only textile you can machine wash. Smart textile. It's like find smart textiles that are machine washable with electronics and like, so hardware is, is a, is an extra beast. And then especially if you're in a world where things don't exist yet. So, so I would say like really the over the counter clearance and then making it reliable, that was really. Those were really like the big, the big portions.

Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. And even hearing that thermometer reference is interesting because it's, you know, it's something that I feel even myself, you wouldn't think about. Right. Like, you know, the trailblazer mentality of just doing things different. You know, personally, I love to dive into the personal side, like through the journey of, you know, getting that approval. Like, what's kept you motivated? I don't even want to use the word motivated, but just excited about the process and like really in, like in it. Right. Because there's, I think there's so many.

There's Doc, there's Doc hours, there's Doc times. Yes.

Everyone deals with that whether you're an entrepreneur or not. Like the dark times that, you know, I love this quote that you see, you see every now and again. It's like I, I'm wishing that whatever dark story you're telling yourself that you're not telling anyone else, I hope you get through that moment and we all can, like think of something or a moment that comes to mind there, whether you want to share a specific moment or not. Like personally, like, what's, what kept you so in it before getting to that point?

So I think I started that point and then I didn't complete it. So in 14, I wrote down when you, when you were asking, like, think big takes as long as, like think small. Right. So I wrote a mission statement for myself in 2014 and I said I'm going to put a dent into the CDC statistics of health and wellness of the American people to do that. Getting to a hundred thousand customers. No, Amelia, no. It's like you really have to get to like, significant scale and you have to have real impact on the individual to move the needle. So it really needs to be impactful and basic. Like, fundamentally, like, different. Because again, just a better something that already exists is not going to cut it so finding a technology where I think and still believe and now know it's kind of like that, that it can help people that didn't have a solution before. Because when you're like healthy 25, it like there's a hundred franchises out there that you can go to and you can be successful with any of them. Once you had injuries, once you're older, once life happens, once you have kids, obligations, so and so forth, time really becomes an issue. Physical ability comes an issue. Fear of new injuries become an issue. Like, you know, all these things become an issue. And really seeing a solution to this, for me it was more a, it's my duty to make this happen and to give this into as many people's hands. So for me it's most less about like it's not about money. It's like literally not the moment. This like this is going to be like wildly like the money outcome comes anyway. Like, you know, if you make customers happy and you make you really deliver on your promise, monetary success is going to happen anyway. Like don't focus on that. That's a bypass of it. Like it's a side effect.

Yeah.

So really seeing that there is an opportunity to help a lot of people that don't have help today and don't have hope today for me more became a mission. It was more richly like, you know, this is my duty to make this happen and no one else sees it. And that is actually one of the big pieces of advice or two pieces of advice that I would have to anyone who considers starting on a journey. The mission has to be so big and so impactful that it can carry you in these dark times. It's like that you really like, hey, it doesn't matter how bad I am, I have to get this done. Right. It's literally you run marathon, right? It started with this message has to go to Athens, right? And the guy died, right? The guy died, passed away. But the mission, like getting this message to Athens was so important. He's going to do whatever you do and this is going to carry you through the dark times. The second thing I would say, if you have an idea that you want to do and you're really passionate about it and you tell your friends about it and they don't tell you you're crazy, then you are too late. Because if it's obvious 20 other people are already working on it, right. It has to be totally non obvious. Right. Or you have to have like a special power, like you know, superpower that no one else has or you know, you're sitting on a gold mine that no one else has or whatsoever, but just saying, oh, I have an idea. I want to build an app that connects A with B. And everybody said, oh, that's a cool idea. If that's the reaction, you're too late.

Yeah, that's powerful. Absolutely. You know, be. So. Yeah, you. You are. You want to be the. The crazy ones, as they say. Right. What was the initial feedback when you're talking to friends?

Absolutely nuts. Like, so I had a great job. Like, I was on a great career path, and, like, my parents freaked out and they said, you're gonna do what? It's like, you know, literally, like. And then people told me, like, this thing, and, like, what. And, you know, it doesn't even exist there. And, like, what are you doing? And I mean, especially in the US where people didn't know about this, like, in Europe was a little bit different because people basically knew about this. And it was on. It was like, so we have, like, three times as many EMS studios as we have Starbucks in Germany.

Wow. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. So it's.

That's. That's crazy.

Yeah, it's. It's absolutely crazy. So it's like hairdressers. It's literally like that. Like, they are barbershops, like, on any. On any corner, but in the us like, no one knew about it. This works. Or we had appels in the 80s. So everybody tells you you're nuts. And then even. Even in the moment when we had, like, the studio product and I had a prototype, hey, there's going to be a trainer on the screen. And when the trainer touches this, this is going to happen whatsoever. I had investors, like, in the product that was home. We simulated it with a customer. I said, but the computer is going to do it in the future, like with a trainer. Right. So we simulated it. They were like, yeah, no, like, literally, like, even if you do it this way. So you really have to be crazy and really have to be a very clear understanding of what you're trying to solve for.

Yeah.

And this is really important because the solution you might not have yet, but you need to be very clear on what's the problem statement. If you cannot formulate the problem in a short sentence, you don't know what the problem is. And that's really the point. And even when we went to the home use case, I didn't have this trainer interaction yet, but I said, I have to not offload this work on the customer because that's what everybody else Does.

Yeah. So no, it's. It's such a powerful. I don't know, not even a feature I have technology of. Even as someone that's used it. It's, you know, it's like an iPhone feeling of. It just feels effortless. And you don't even think about the magic that's happening. It's just that it's happening and it feels right and it feels great.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

And I mean, it's interesting. Like, in great technologies, like, they are so intuitive that you don't even know they exist.

Yeah.

Right. So the Apple keyboard, like the iPhone keyboard, it had a very predictive AI, like, very rudimentary, but very early from day one. And people were wondering, like, why is this keyboard so much better than an Android keyboard? And they couldn't. And only years later, they, like, said, yeah, yeah, we're doing this and this and that. Right. So. So they are actually predicting what's the next button you would. The next letter you will. You will hit. And then they increase the hit target. They increase the. Like, you know, in software, like, you don't see this, but they increase. So it's more likely that you're hitting if, like, let's say the first letter of a word is a T. The H gets larger because they are Thomas. And the. And this and that. It's like there's so many ages, like, so they actually do this. And the very, very cool technologies are so hidden from people that you don't even know they exist.

Yeah. No, it's so great to hear. And it makes me wonder, and to whatever extent you can share, you've been on this journey for 10 years.

Yes.

One, fill me in on where the company is today. I remember it's like that theory where you see a yellow bus, you start seeing yellow buses all the time. Ever since I got my catalyst, I follow music producer Diplo, and I see he's using it and he's posting about a friend using it. And then I'm like, okay. Like, it's one of those things that you just start seeing it more frequently if you're focused on it. Like, fill me in on, like, where the company is today. I know you guys have raised, you know, previous large round. I. I've heard you talk about, like, efficiency in terms of team, which I love. Um, but yeah, like, bring us up to speed where. Like, where we are today. The market impact, customer feedback, just all the things that you feel that, you know, people should know when learning about the product, if they're interested in the Product, but also just, you know, about the company overall.

So we survived the pandemic, which was. Was tough. Like, it was a hard time for businesses in general. So kudos to everyone who made it through. So that was a tough time. We had a few products, we had a. A little bit of inventory. We tried to bring production stateside, and it was really, really tough and really difficult. Quality was really an issue. And I went on my first podcast show about three years ago and we immediately sold out. And then I went on another one and we were sold out again for three months.

Wow.

We kind of like live for quite a long time. And then we closed a sizable round with some great investors and we then really went to bed and built a very solid scalable supply chain with great partners because it doesn't matter, like, you know, if you have a great product, if, if you can't ship and you don't make enough of them, like, doesn't. Doesn't really work. The first year of that, which was like 2020 to 2022, was still. We were still plagued by like, the chip shortage. Like, everybody had, like, you know, yeah, shortage on chips and couldn't buy anything. And we moved away from that. So then we built out the team and content and like, you know, software capabilities and other things. So now we are in this stage where. And this is why I'm going on, like, more and more of these shows and like, you know, have more customers know about this or, like, people know about this, where we can scale the business and really go out there where we can serve people that actually want it and not just have to tell them, like, yeah, sorry, nice, but not in your size yet, or not in your zip code or we're not shipping there. We only ship in the US at the moment. So we have a lot of international customers who want one. But it's like, sorry, not for you yet. And then they're like, okay, I'm going to be in New York next month. I'm going to ship one into my hotel and then I'm going to take it home. It's like, that's what people. So, no, it's been really this journey of. And that's the topic about hardware. So scaling a hardware business is very different from scaling a software business. If you have an app that works, like, cool. More downloads means, yes, there are architectural things, I get it. But it's basically a larger credit card on aws. That's basically how you scale a software business. I know it's a little bit simplified, but in Hardware, it's really tough. So really building that out was the challenge over the last two years. And now we're, like, very happy and lucky that we. Yeah, we can serve any customer. We, for example, introduced like, new sizes. We have, like, literally anyone between like £100 and £400 we can serve.

Wow.

That's really the goal. Like, you know, we are going to be the most accessible training equipment on the planet.

And even. And even on that note of just to talk about my experience, you know, when you have an order, you don't just send them, you know. Oh, I think it fits here. Like you. I sent in specific measurements. Height, weight, you know, measuring my. My waist, my biceps, my shoulders, everything that's really tailored towards you as the customer.

Yes.

Like, talk to me more about that in terms of why that's valuable for a product like this.

Yeah. So in muscle stimulation, you can do two things. You either have sticky pads on your skin or you create compression through a suit. So this is why we have built the suit in the way we've built it, which is like a two shell. Like, there's an undergarment and then there's the over suit. And the oversuit has all the electronics you sweat into, mainly into the undergarment. And the. All the electronics, they need to be, like, very tight to your body so that you have good connection with your skin. To have good connection with your skin, you have to have the right size. So what we're saying is instead of someone just guessing, or maybe I'm an M, maybe I'm an L. What we are saying is you make an order, you give us some body measurements, I think eight measurements that we are asking of a customer. Then we actually have a machine learning algorithm who's taking this, and that process is filling your shopping cart before it gets packaged in the warehouse and sent to you as a customer. With that, we really make sure it fits you and it fits you for a certain amount of time. If you lose that much weight or gain that much weight, I mean, generally lose that much weight, that you don't fit into this anymore. Like, we give you a new suit because we don't want you to be in the way of your continued success. But that is just pieces that you need to be exchanging. But we are making sure that you get the pieces that actually fit.

You got it? No, that's extremely powerful. And it goes to show just the quality and the focus on customer satisfaction, which is so prevalent to what you guys do and how you operate. So, yeah, I mean, it's so cool to hear. You know, like when you think about ideas that can get brought to more people at scale, you guys are in a place now where it's like you are sharing not only, like, you guys are at a place where you can take on the orders, the customers, the demand, which is such a great place to be. What have you, what have you been seeing in terms of when it comes to like, for example, I'm someone that I recently had a founder on the show and they partnered with Huberman. It was a supplement company and Momentous specifically. And you know, they talk about different channels, marketing channels. Like, this is such a product that, you know, you're probably not an Instagram. One day you see a 12 second ad and say, boom. Like there's an educational component, there's a understanding. It's a tech. It's like a new technology that you probably don't see every day. What's been the biggest unlock for you guys in terms of like, customer education for this new age technology and, you know, if other founders are out there looking to, you know, do something in their own industry of new and cutting edge, the educational component and figuring out a way to speak to it, I believe is so important. So talk to me about that and how that works for you guys and your team and just educating the customer.

Yeah. So first of all, we have like, we really thought about the business in stages, like, you know, the different stages, like, what are we doing this year, what are we focused on next year? Like one, one year is like getting the product there, next one is like getting the, the supply chain there. Next year is that. And, and this year is really about education. You know, getting it out there. Podcasts have worked for me very well because there's a certain attention span that you have with a customer. You have audience specific conversations and you have a little bit of time to explain that. And we're actually launching our own small podcast actually this week. I think today is actually the next one is coming out is called Transformations, where we tell customer stories. I sit down with customers that have been using the product for between three years and six months and they basically talk about their life and what they had to overcome and what they achieved and what helped them. And it's not just about catalysts, it's like about life and improvement in general. But like, we play a role in that definitely, because when you have a healthier body, then, you know, everything else, like, you know, starts getting better and you can be more active and more vital in, in general. So the Podcast format has, has really, has really worked well for us. Building out YouTube and then we're bringing on a medical officer who's like, you know, gonna help like, you know, explaining things like to a certain audience. There's gonna more and more partnerships with the medical community in general. We have a huge opportunity around. Yeah, the whole like longevity space. There's a massive, massive movement at the moment around, you know, metabolic health in general. So it's always like adjacent to something else because we can help so many parts. We are partnering up with large medical institutions that are showing studies in combination with like other treatments. There's a lot that's going to come up. Yeah.

Yeah. That's so very exciting place to be in time to be in just in terms of that educational thing and educational timeframe. And I love to hear as someone that's building a company that's in the world of podcasting. Listener.com It's. I always love hearing founders talk about the power of it. Whether that's through storytelling or like the depth. Because as someone that's been in the space for six and a half years, I've seen the industry grow so much and I think again, in the world of short form content and optimizing for like retention. Yeah, podcasts, like if you lean into the right audience, the right host, the right show, like the depth is there, which is just so untapped and so different than what people are, you know, all consuming in this quick, short form social world.

Yeah. And I think it is focused, like people are listening to something intentionally. You have a lot of variety. So if you find like 10 minutes in like, oh, this episode is not for me, like go to another one. But the people that really want to dive deeper have the ability to do so. And I think that's very powerful. I mean you don't have to do like three and a half, four hours like all the time. But the ability to really either learn enough or become curious enough to like then like spend time on research. I think it's, it's, it's an amazing medium, I have to say.

Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any specific podcasts that you listen to?

I don't really have like full time podcasts that I like constantly follow. I mean like Streetman is very interesting. There's some Rogan shows here and there. Uberman has good ones. Peter Tia has good ones. But it's more like topic based. It's like, you know, I sometimes just go and like, you know, a search for a certain topic and then, oh, I don't know about this person, I don't know about that person. And then this is how, like sometimes I find out about people I like. I like podcasts that tell like stories about companies. Sometimes the acquired podcast I think is pretty cool.

It's really good.

But sometimes it's actually too long for me. It's like, you know, hey, like, like until we are like getting to like 30 years ago, I'm like, okay, so like, you know, I have to like skip forward sometimes, but it still gives like this like amazing, I think. So first of all, like what they're doing in terms of research killer. It's like you have to do so much research to like prep an episode of this. Like absolutely, absolutely crazy. No, I think podcasts are, are here to stay. And the question is, what are they replacing? I don't really know.

Yeah, yeah, I find it interesting. I don't know. Do you follow Stephen Bartlett?

No, I don't.

So he is one of the biggest business shows. I think it is the biggest in Europe and you should totally be on that show sometime. That'd be awesome. But he just did a deal with Samsung tv. Really a lot of his content interview format is going to be, you know, like on a streaming service. And I found that interesting in terms of like, you know, when you think about these like late night talk shows. Obviously YouTube is a medium, but just podcasting in the format of like long form conversation and the repetition of that, I foresee a lot of those types of opportunities to be in the future of the medium of podcasting. But yeah, I'll have to send you an episode that I you check out on his show. It's really good and well done.

I'd love to. I like, I like the democratization of what podcasts have done. I mean, everybody can do this, right? We can do this. Everybody can decide to like start one and if they have something interesting, there's going to be an audience for that. Right? So it's, yeah, like the entry barriers are now very, very low. You need a hopefully nice microphone, maybe a camera. Yeah, that's decent. And a $29 like subscription to like whatever you're going to record it on and you're good to go. And I think that's really powerful.

Absolutely. A couple more questions before we wrap up here. One being, I know we talked about the journey where we are today, but what excites you the most when you think about the future of Catalyst? I feel that you guys are really in this transitionary point of consumer education and ramping up from the decade of work that you guys have put in. So what excites you the most when you think about the future of the business and the product?

So there's an interesting moment in time where we couldn't have like, that we couldn't have planned for. So the being here in the US we have a huge issue with like metabolic health in general. Like, you know, a lot of people are very unhealthy. And first of all, what we are seeing is like, last year we sold off of XL suits, which are £250 plus, and, and, and higher. And we were like, what? Like, we're not even having like active marketing about this, but word of mouth for people that were very overweight or not healthy and not happy with where they were. They were very successful, what we've been doing, because the, the very important thing is like, cardio is not going to help you change your body composition. You first have to build muscle mass and then muscle mass burns more calories, like 24,7, not just when you're standing on the treadmill. And then that allows you to be healthier in general and then you can go on your whole transformation journey. But what's happening recently is we have this other technology field, which is like medications and drugs, where we're getting into this whole glp one world where once of a sudden there might be light at the end of the tunnel in terms of giving people hope and help that have been struggling with their body composition for like their entire lives. And this is almost half of the population, right? And it goes, it cuts across like, men, women, old, young, like north, south, east, west, like, you know, it cuts across everyone. So the biggest problem and side effect of these drugs, even if we say like they work and whatsoever, is that people lose their muscle mass and bone health. So technically, everyone who starts on this journey has to go to the gym and really do that. But we know that, like, when you are in this state, you're not going to do that and you're not going to like it and you're not going to adhere to it. And this is how I almost feel like this is the perfect complement where, like, you know, catalyst is coming in. You can be unhealthy. Like I just put you on a treadmill with a catalyst suit on. You just walk slowly and. Because like, in our cardio mode, we can just literally like get your, your muscles firing and you're like, oh, wow, I can do this, right? Or we do like basic squats or basic movements or even if you just stand for a while. Like if you had like knee issues, hip issues, what's. Doesn't matter. Like, you know, we can literally take you from a certain state, build your muscle mass and get you into a healthier state. So what I'm really, really excited about is that on top of just us giving people hope for exercise, there's also additional hope in terms of like metabolic health in general. And I wouldn't be surprised if we would see like a real change within 10 years, 10, 15 years, that the current prediction is we're going to go to like 50% obesity. Like maybe we go to 30% obesity, you know, or like, you know, even less.

Yeah.

So I'm, I'm really, I'm really excited that. And like the jury's still out and we still have to figure out what it is, but with these drugs. But I'm really, really hopeful that. And we have my first guest on the podcast that we're going to like publish today is as we are recording this is, is actually an individual like, who had, you know, injuries, hormonal issues, cancer, like, you know, all these things, became really overweight and then went on Ozempic or like a. I, I think it was not oic. I have to one over version like a Gl per one and agonist and went with Catalyst at the same time. And now he's like, I have abs at 60. Like, he's like, literally like. And he says like, I'm, I, I thought I'm not going to make it like until this age to see my kids and like, you know, kids grow up and, and all that kind of stuff, all the beautiful things in life. But he says like, I'm living the best life that I ever had and I wouldn't thought I'm going to be here. So the combination of these new technologies make me very hopeful that we can help a large portion of the society that previously we haven't really catered to in terms of health and wellness.

That is beyond powerful. Just hearing that mission in the future, it's. I'm excited, you know, I'm excited for you guys. I'm excited to be helpful in spreading the message and sharing my experiences with family, friends and even my community here. So on that note, I know we've been talking about your story Catalyst entire time for people that want to learn more, they're interested in learning more, or they're just like, hey, I want to go buy this thing. I've heard it from Bjorn, like, let's go. Where's the best place for everyone to follow. You guys check out the product and just stay connected with the journey.

Yeah. So catalyst.com is our website. Catalyst with a K. Katalyst.com our YouTube channel, like is getting bigger and bigger, like with explanations. How do you do this? How does it work? That work? We have, as I said, our podcast coming out is called Transformations. It's going to be on all major platforms. We're also going to link it from the website. Our Instagram is Catalyst Fit and I think we're all like cross linked on all these different things so there's things to find out.

Totally. I love it. Well, I'll be sure to link that down below. And once again, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know I learned so much and the ability to just really dive into the story, it's inspiring to hear and I know founders out there are inspired as well. So thank you so much for taking the time. Bjorn.

Wonderful. Thank you. Casey.