Brent Saunders - Former CEO of Allergan speaks on pandemic and $460M Vesper Health SPAC

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What is going on, everyone?

Kasey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast.

On today's episode, we have Brent Saunders here on the show. Brent Saunders is the CEO of Vesper Healthcare Acquisition Corp. And he was previously the CEO of the pharmaceutical company known as Allergan. If you're not familiar with Allergan, they are the creator of botox. With over 17,000 employees and and $16 billion in revenue in 2019. This conversation that I had with Brent was absolutely amazing. This is the first time that I had anybody on in the pharmaceutical business, so it was very exciting. Huge shout out to my man Kevin Gold for making this happen. And with that being said, please enjoy today's episode with the one and only Brent Saunders.

Foreign.

What is going on, everyone? Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. On today's episode, we have Brent Saunders, the form, the founder and chairman of Vesper Health and the former chairman and CEO of Allergan. What's going on, Brent?

Hey, Casey, how you doing?

I'm doing great, man. I'm super excited to have you on today. And first things first, I wanted to ask you, how did you get into the pharmaceutical business early on in your career?

By accident. I was a partner at a consulting firm and I was doing a project for a CEO and as I was working with him, he got very aggravated at the state of affairs of his business. And he just kind of one day put his head in his hands and he said, hey, can you help me? And I said, of course, you're a great client. Of course we'll help you. He said, no, no, no, you're not understanding. Will you come and work here and work with me? I'm like, no, I'm good. I got a good job. But I've got you. We'll help you as a consultant. Well, after like a month of back and forth, he wore me down and I took actually a dramatic pay cut to go work for him. And I worked my ass off for him for eight years and ultimately rose up to become president of the company. And so it was just a. It was a tremendous run. It was a tremendous amount of work, but it was very gratifying too.

Absolutely. And how long were you the CEO of Allergan for?

Well, I built Allergan. I started with a company called Forest. Then I bought and merged with a variety of different companies, changing the name along the way, ultimately buying Allergan about six years ago.

Got it.

So in total, that was about an eight year run.

Wow, very cool, man. And now with Vesper Health, when did you decide to take a step in a different direction?

Yeah, it came to me, I don't know, maybe three, four months ago. I was thinking about what I could do next and I felt there were some big opportunities in healthcare with a focus on aesthetic medicine. Given Allergan, what we did in aesthetic medicine and Allergan with Botox and Juvederm and coolsculpting and Latisse and all the brands that we assembled to build that business, I thought, you know, there's a real opportunity to do that. And I thought, should I raise some money on my own? Should I finance it myself? Should I go to private equity? But the SPAC market or special purpose acquisition company market is pretty open right now and it was a really efficient and good way to raise capital. So, you know, I set out to do that and we had a successful IPO a couple weeks ago, raised about 460 million. Yeah, it was a good deal.

That's amazing. I was reading about that and I wanted to ask you, like, going through that process of raising that amount of money through an ipo, like, what did you learn through that? And if, like, what is the most important thing to know before going into a deal like that?

Yeah, look, it's relationships. Over the last 25 years, I've done a lot of different deals. I've been involved in a lot of different transactions. And as a result, I'm kind of a known quantity or entity in Wall Street. But I always took those relationships over the years as serious. There's sometimes difficult relationships with investors, but I always was transparent, I was always straightforward. And I always tried to do right by them as well as other stakeholders. And so when I came around this time, they all kind of remembered me. They Knew my track record and they were frankly pretty excited to invest. We had a tremendous over allotment and excitement for the ipo.

Very cool. When it comes to ipoing and the day that the deal goes through, what goes on in your head? What does the day look like when that day did come?

Yeah, you know, I'd be honest, a little nervous.

Yeah, totally.

Because you've done so much work and there's so much. You know, you do a lot of roadshow work now. You do roadshow work by Zoom or WebEx, but you do a lot of. A lot of work. You're out there, a lot of paperwork, a lot of phone calls, and it's kind of like, all right, now you're putting it out there in the world, right? Yeah, go forth. And you're excited about it, but you don't know if anybody else is going to be excited about it. So, you know, these things always. SPACs always go out trading at $10. That's kind of universal. That's where they set it, unlike another IPO. And so you're just hoping you want to trade one penny above 10. I'm sitting there praying, like, just one penny above, stay green. And we did. So that felt good. Most SPACs today do not. They fall into the nine and change. And so we were very fortunate that our investors really supported what we were doing.

Very cool. When it comes to SPACs, I know that just this year I've been seeing personally a lot of the word SPAC in the entire market really getting hot. What is, what's your thoughts on the SPAC market as it's gained a lot of momentum and just in conversation this year?

Yeah, look, I think Overall, big picture SPACs are a good thing. I think if you're an entrepreneur, you're a small company, it gives you another alternative for doing an ipo. And so as a result of that, you really have. You have more competition. And I think more competition is good. If you're a small company, you want to go public, you're going to talk to banks about an ipo. You're going to talk about perhaps a direct listing, or you're going to think about selling yourself to private equity or otherwise. Now you have this world of SPACs, and it's just another option for you. And gosh, if I were starting a business, I'd love to have another option. I've looked at IPOs in the past and, you know, they've never. They're just tough to do. They're very expensive. They're a Lot of work. And having another option for an entrepreneur or small business to go public is great. The flip side of that, there's. There's sometimes some garbage in the market too, because everybody rushes in.

Yeah, yeah.

And wants to do something. It becomes very popular. And you know, some of these probably won't make it and some of these were probably ill advised to be formed. But, but I think the vast majority will, will be good. And another instrument or another option in the capital markets for small businesses.

Very cool. When it comes to health care, what do you see as the biggest problem in health care right now that needs to be solved?

Well, I think the biggest issue is access and affordability. I'm a strong believer that everyone should, everyone in this country should have access to affordable health care. And you know, that is just, it's so simple to do, but given the politics and the complexity of it, we get all tied up in knots around it. And so we spend enough money on healthcare today, we don't have to spend more to be able to provide that level of basic service to everybody. The second thing though, if I could add it, I know you didn't ask Casey, but people also have to take more responsibility for the healthcare. They have to be more proactive. Waiting to the, you know, feeling symptoms and then waiting till you're really sick. And deep down is a very inefficient way to manage health care. Right. We need to create incentives for people to live a little healthier, take a little bit more control of their health care and have better access. And I think if we do all those two things together, they we could solve a lot of the healthcare burden in this country.

Totally. What is the long term vision of vesper now that you just took this company public and you're embarking upon this new journey in the healthcare space, what is the vision in five, ten years from now?

Yeah, I mean, ultimately what would be great, and we have a lot of work to get there, is to create a company that has, you know, an incredible track record of growth, just continuing to provide compounded returns that beat the market for our investors to be a great place to work for our employees, have the best service for our customers, and hopefully do something really good for society along the way. If that could happen, it would be a dream. You know, now that's a lot of rhetoric. Right. And we got a lot of work to get there. But, but ideally, if you could do those things, it's a home run. And that's what we did at Allergan. Right. We really Tried to be a great place to work for our employees. We tried to make people's lives better, either by discovering new medicines or a portion of our business was aesthetic medicine, making people look better and really doing good work in our communities and supporting all the local charities and an area very near to my heart, mental health. And we did a lot around trying to eliminate the stigma around mental health. And so those are the types of things I think companies need to do today.

Absolutely. And talking on Allergan, I wanna ask you, when it comes to scaling a company, I believe it says on Google, over 17,000 employees, how do you maintain company culture? And what does leadership look like in such a massive organization?

Yeah, so I think company culture is one of the most important responsibilities for a CEO, particularly a large company CEO. When you're a group of 30 people, your culture kind of leans off the personalities of the people involved, right?

Yeah.

When you're 17 or 20 or 25,000 people, it's a much harder exercise. And so for me, as CEO and chairman over the last several years, I carried the banter of trying to talk about our culture and lead by example around our culture at Allergan. Every day, every action, every interaction I had, every interview I had was just a constant drumbeat of reiterating why that was important to us and making sure that all of the senior executives at Allergan walk the talk. They not just spoke about it, but their actions actually followed through in support of the kind of culture we were trying to develop.

Totally.

But so important, Casey. So important.

Absolutely. And speaking on that, what was the culture of Allergan that you built, and why do you think it was so successful? And how can an entrepreneur duplicate in their organization what you guys learned from scaling Allergan to what it is today?

Yeah. So the word that we used to describe our culture was a word we picked out several years ago called bold. We just said, we want to be bold.

Love that.

And so everything we did was around being bold. And you could do that in a lot of little ways, and you could do that in big ways. And in aggregate, it had to work. And so I'm a big believer of even big companies like Allergan and 107 countries all over the world, close to 20,000 employees. You know, we had to live that every day. And so we wanted entrepreneurism. We wanted a flat organization. We didn't want a lot of hierarchy or bureaucracy. We didn't make decisions by committee. People were accountable as individuals. We tried to empower our people to go out and Be bold. We encourage people, frankly, to make mistakes, go out and try something, fail, you know, screw it up. One condition, be open and honest about your mistake so we can all learn from it. Because that's the, you know, you don't learn from your successes. You learn from your mistakes. And when you get in trouble with mistakes, it's because you covered them up, not because you openly spoke about them. So I would talk about my mistakes. We talk about all the things that we thought we did wrong in a way to show how bold we were. We were a lot of. We were the first company, for example, to, you know, talk about bold, to say, we're not going to take any price increases and we're going to make our medicines affordable and accessible to our patients. So we had the most robust patient Access program. Over 200 million Americans qualified for Allergan medicines for free.

Wow.

As an example. So, you know, it was things like that that really, we were the trailblazer, in many ways, right thing to do. So it sounds easy in retrospect, but kind of pushing the pharmaceutical industry into this affordable and accessible medicine framework was something I took on as quite serious. Totally.

That's amazing. And speaking on something that you talked about earlier, which was Botox, when did that idea come to the table and what did it look like in the early stages of launching that.

Yeah. So, you know, Allergan is well known for Botox, medical aesthetics, or Botox. And that whole group of products was about 30% of our business. 70% were serious medicines. Right. In healthcare. Botox, interestingly, started at about 15, 16 years ago, and it started in Vancouver. There was an eye doctor, an ophthalmologist, who had a patient with severe fluttering eye, and she tried to do everything she could to help this patient because obviously she was losing her mind, having her eye flutter up and down, open all the time. She ultimately did something very daring and bold, and she injected botulinum toxin into the eye. As a result of that, in curing this woman, there were a couple hundred people around the world that had the same rare issue. They all came to Vancouver and tried to get the same treatment. One of the side things she noticed was the crow's feet or the lines here are going away. So we were an eye care company originally. That's how we knew her. And we acquired the rights to botulinum toxin from her. And no one ever believed that people would take botulinum toxin or a poison, a deadly poison, and voluntarily inject it into their face to eliminate wrinkles. So you can Imagine the marketing we had to do to make that okay, right?

Yeah, totally. Even hearing it like that, you're like, wow, how did they do that? Right.

And, you know, we've now injected over. We sold over 100 million vials, and each vial is 100 units. So you could do the math. It's a massive amount of Botox. And we've. It's so safe. It's. The only safety issues are injector error. You know, sometimes the doctor or the injector does something wrong, but it's. It's so safe, and it works every time. It's just a. It's a fabulous drug. And, you know, I'll tell you two things about Botox, maybe that people don't know. One is we sell more Botox for therapeutic medicine than we do for wrinkles.

Wow.

And so it's used for, like, movement disorders and spasticity. If you had a kid with cerebral palsy and they couldn't walk, they can inject the leg muscles with Botox and the kid runs around like a normal kid. It's absolutely heartbreaking or heartwarming sometimes to see. And so we still sell more for those types of uses than we do for wrinkles. And then the second thing I would say is we make literally just about a gram of Botox a year. So, like a sugar cube. Think about it as an allergy. And then we dilute it like you wouldn't believe. To sell it as a therapeutic or a wrinkle reducer. Wow.

That's it.

A little.

That little thing. And you sell close to $5 billion a year of product. It's pretty amazing.

Yeah. No, that is incredible. I did not know that.

Very cool.

So outside of being the CEO of Allergan, what was your career early on, before you got into that? There's a lot of young entrepreneurs that listen to this show. I know that you said earlier that you accidentally got into healthcare, but what were some of your goals and early ambitions as a young entrepreneur?

Yeah, I mean, I actually started off, you know, not knowing what I wanted to do. I was kind of lost. And so ultimately I wound up in consulting. I thought I would be there for a couple years just to kind of get a feel for learning a lot of different things and trying a lot of different businesses. And I was at pricewaterhouse Consulting, and I rose up very quickly to become a partner. I was pretty good at it. Not to toot my own horn, but I was a pretty good consultant. And I was, I think, the youngest partner ever in the history of that firm. It's a pretty big firm. And I thought that was it. I thought, man, I made it. I'm set. This is a job for life. I'm in the partnership, this prestigious big place, and then this guy comes along and convinces me to come work for him. And honestly, I think I took a 65% pay cut and all job security aside to go work for this guy in this very troubled, trouble around company. And I did it because I just had this like sense inside of me that I wanted to be a CEO. I wanted to learn how to actually run a real business, sell products. My first big job there was to run consumer products. So was brands like Claritin and Coppertone and Dr. Scholl's and a bunch of brands you know about. And it was just, I worked so hard, but I just loved it. I just had such a passion for launching new brands and being involved in the innovation and R and D of coming up with new products. Yep.

What do you think's the most important thing to do when launching a brand? Because you just said a couple of names, Claritin and these brands that most of every American would know. How do you go about building brands and what's your advice to somebody starting a brand today that's not necessarily in the healthcare space, but somebody the early foundations and principles that you'd want them to know.

Yeah, don't get stuck. I've seen sometimes people, myself included, where you do so much work on the data around what the consumer wants and a lot of focus groups and a lot of feedback groups, and then you get kind of maniacal on that data and say, okay, this is the only way to do it. We've done all this research, we've tested it, we know. And the reality is you don't know. I mean, when you launch a brand, you have to just stay a little bit open minded, a little bit flexible and make the zigs and zags as you go as you figure out where success is. You know, sometimes you're just so tunnel visioned on, okay, I figured it out, I got it, I got all the data, I did the work and you know, screw you guys, I'm not going. I'm not. You know, but really, don't be, don't be, don't be stuck in the, in the data. Use the data. It's important. Let it guide you, let it help inform your decisions. But just watch how your product does, how it resonates, how the brand imagery resonates, how the marketing supports what you're Trying to achieve. And then ultimately the best measure of any good plan is sales, right?

Yeah.

If sales aren't going, I don't care what anybody tells you. I remember marketers would come to me when we're launching something. They'd say, oh, we have the best campaign. It scored. The TV commercial scored off the charts. It resonated. Our social media plan is buttoned up the best. And, you know, they launch it and a month later I'd say, where are we on sales? Well, we're a little behind. I'm like, well, if we're not hitting our sale, like sales is the absolute best predictor of whether your plan's working. You can always use the data to manipulate. Well, we're just not there yet. It's not working or what have you. It just doesn't work that way.

Totally. I see it real quick. I can't see. All right, now we're good.

There we go. Sorry.

Yep, all good. So when it comes to sales for an early entrepreneur, what is the best way, in your opinion, to measure sales but to keep your team accountable as you're scaling?

Yeah, I mean, look fundamental. If you're going to start any business, I would make sure you know how to track your sales. Don't put your product in a channel where you're not getting pretty close to real time, if not real time sales data. Most platforms can do that for you and you can, you know, or you can set up pretty quick systems to figure that out. And so you need to have that data. It is the best barometer to figuring out what's working and not working. There's a lot of other data that can support and inform, but nothing beats sales data. And to the extent sales aren't coming in where you thought they were or you're having down different parts of the market aren't growing. Learn from it. Just be open. Talk about it with your team, brainstorm around it. Try to really understand why is it working here. But in this channel, we're not getting sales or our online presence is working, but our retail presence. Well, maybe it's packaging then, or maybe what is it that's not working, that's resonating in one part of the market and not the others. And just get your team around the table and just nothing substitutes for. Well, maybe if you can't get them around the table now, a zoom will suffice. But nothing substitutes from just getting the team together, Even if it's two people or three people. And just brainstorm around, you'll come up later.

Speaking of switching to Zoom, what did you guys learn this year from COVID and transitioning and doing now? Zoom calls when you have not only so many employees, but to maintain culture and to stay on track. I'm sure it was a learning curve for you guys. So what have you guys learned this year at Allergan but now vesper just through the entire Covid world?

Yeah, so I learned a lot. Frankly, I'm and have been a road warrior. I was a big believer of being in the office and walking around and traveling. I probably spent, oh, I think I looked this up once, over 300 nights a year in a hotel for the last 15 years.

Wow.

And now I barely travel at all. So, you know, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But what the thing I learned is there is a way to be more efficient with your time. And, you know, time is our most precious commodity. You only have so much of it, and you can never change that. And so, you know, the lesson I learned now is probably I could have been more judicious. I could have probably traveled a little less. It would have given me more time to do other things. But I also know I don't like living in the pure Zoom world either. Somewhere between the two would be perfect for me. I miss being able to just walk across the office or get out and travel to a subsidiary and just see with your own eyes and ears what's going on and get a feel for things. I do miss that, but I probably did it too much, and so I needed more balance.

Love that. What's your prediction on when that will potentially go back to normal? Or do you think this is a permanent thing for a lot of companies? Because I know with some companies there's the option now of, hey, you guys can work from home, because they've learned how to be efficient. So what's your thoughts on that as the future of remote working?

Yeah. So this has been the greatest experiment of all time. We would never, as the corporate world, we would never have said, send everybody home and let's just see what happens. We may have tested it in small groups or different geographies, but we've never done it on this grand scale. And it worked pretty well. It's working pretty well. So I do think the future will look different. I think I talked to a lot of CEOs, I sit on a lot of boards, and this is a constant discussion that we have that maybe this idea of these massive campuses and this mandatory five days of Monday through Friday in the office kind of attitude is Gone. And I think it will replace predominantly with a hybrid model where we have smaller campuses. Perhaps you kind of use a hotel check in, you don't have a permanent office, you work from home when you need to, maybe two or three days a week at home and two or three days a week in the office, depending on what's going on or how things are working. And I think the best part of the whole thing is this should really help with getting diversity in the workplace because you know, people with alternative careers or children or other obligations to care for parents will have so much more flexibility. And then, you know, a lot of businesses like Allergan, you know, we had headquarters that say in suburbs. Yep. Right. And so when we would recruit in our geographies, it was hard to get diversity because we didn't have a lot of diversity in the, you know, 30 mile radius of the office. But now, you know, you can open up smaller outposts perhaps in cities or in different geographies where you can have access to so much more diverse and great talent. So I'm pretty excited about the future. I think we've learned something really important here. I don't think it's a one way or the other way. The pendulum is probably somewhere swinging around the middle. But the hybrid model I think will be the permanent model come come the spring. And I do think things will start to normalize. I follow the vaccine. I'm a big proponent of vaccines and I do think that this isn't a hard virus to vaccinate against. We will start to return to normal in the late winter, early spring.

What's your predictions on when we do have a vaccine? When it comes to every American getting it and having it accessible to people, do you see that as a big problem? That is going to be challenging or what's your thoughts on your getting the vaccine out to everybody?

Yeah, I don't think it's going to be challenging to get the vaccine out to everybody. You know, most of the, and this is an area where I'm really, really proud of the biopharmaceutical industry. I mean they jumped on this with like, you know, you can't believe a sense of purpose and unheard of manufacturing at risk, spending billions and billions of dollars to pre manufacture a vaccine. They don't even know if it works yet. And so that's pretty, pretty amazing. And so, you know, if a vaccine, and I think it will be approved, let's say in and around January, February, with good data, good safety and efficacy data, you know, there'll be 100 or 150 million doses available pretty quickly, within weeks, if not a month of that time period, by the spring, it'll be a couple hundred million. You know, you only need 320 million to vaccinate the whole country. I think the bigger issue is the politicization of the vaccine and the fear mongering and the crazy. I think that, you know, if you look at the data, crazy as it may sound, people don't want to get the vaccine. And, you know, the biggest risk generally of getting a vaccine is getting the underlying virus. Right. That you're vaccinating it. So say your odds. Just. I'm making up numbers. Say your odds of this vaccine. Your biggest side effect is getting Covid. Right. And it's. Let's say it's 1 in 10,000. Your odds of walking around, you know, L.A. or Miami and getting Covid are probably 1 in 100.

Yeah.

So what are you worrying about here?

Yep.

Yep. Absolutely. Something you touched on earlier. When it comes to the value of time and how you can focus elsewhere. Now, I wanted to bring up. I see you have a master's shirt on. Are you a big golfer?

So I like the idea of playing golf. I haven't played much golf in the last year because I've just been so busy.

Yeah.

It is a hobby I really enjoy. I like getting outside for four or five hours and, you know, I'm pretty competitive and just joking around with my friends.

Yeah.

You know, giving everybody a hard time. And I have played Augusta a few times. I've been very fortunate. But, gosh, I probably have played six times this calendar year.

Okay. Very cool.

Yeah. Which is sad for me.

To me, that's good. I've been playing golf since I was like 8 years old, but I probably only get out like 4 times a year.

Yeah, same thing. I like the idea of it.

Yeah, for sure. Well, a couple more questions before we wrap up. And that is, what is your advice to a young entrepreneur today starting their first company based on everything that you've learned through being the CEO of Allergan and having your own company?

Look, I think it would be there's no substitute for hard work. And, you know, too many times I hear entrepreneurs talk about work, life, balance. You know, I love that show sometimes Shark Tank. When you, when you listen to like a Mark Cuban or somebody talk about, you know, man, you just got to grind it out, or Damian Johns. I've lived in my car, you know, that's the spirit of an entrepreneur. If you're worried about work, life, balance. And you want to start your own company. I'd say give up, go, go get a, you know, nine to five job and, and live a great life and there's nothing wrong with it. You know, lots of people will find that balance that way. Go for it. An entrepreneur, man, you got to kick ass. You got to be committed, you've got to be ready for disappointment, twists, turns, failures. Dust yourself off, pick yourself back up, get going and just work your ass off. And if you don't have that, then no harm, no foul, go do something else. You're fine. There's plenty of other opportunities for you for sure. That entrepreneur needs to just be a kick ass, you know, hard working, focused person. Second, get, get good people around you. Even if you're only gonna have one or two people working with you, make sure you didn't compromise. It's not your buddy and you just owe him a favor and you're gonna throw them in your business and hope it works. Man, you're making a big mistake. You've got to have the best people you could possibly get surrounding you. The best businesses always have the best people, even if it's a two person business.

Yep, I love that. Last question before we wrap up, Brent, what are you excited about? Moving forward with Vesper? You guys just had an IPO. You raised, you said over $460 million. Like looking forward into the future. What are you excited about? Moving forward?

Yeah, it's, frankly, right now we're in such an early stage. It's the first deal, right? The first product or business or, or a service or medicine that we bring into Vesper and we're working pretty hard on it. I've been working nonstop. That's why I haven't golfed so much on looking at and analyzing different ideas and due diligences and other things like that. So, you know, when we see the right one, we'll know it. But we're scouring, you know, the entire universe to find the best first deal for Vesper. And hopefully over the next few to several months, we'll get that first deal done.

Love that. Well, Brent, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. Where is the best place where people can follow you and stay updated on everything you have going on at Vesper?

Yeah. Thanks, Casey. Instagram is probably the best. I'm most active there. I do some twittering, tweeting too, but I'm much more active on Instagram. I don't do LinkedIn all that much. I have an account there. But yeah, my inbox of people trying to request there is pretty, pretty long on Instagram. I try to be, you know, pretty quick on responding to folks.

Well, cool. I will make sure to link that down below. And Brent, again, thanks so much for coming on today.

Yeah, Casey, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.

Monarch Legacy of Monsters An Apple original series. The world is on fire. I decided to do something about it on November 17th. This place, it's not ours. Believe me, the most massive event of the year arrives. If you come with me, you'll know everything. I promise.

My God. Go.

Monarch Legacy of monsters streaming November 17th only on Apple TV.

Plus.