Duncan Cock Foster - Co-Founder of Nifty Gateway Explains The NFT Boom

Legacy of Monsters an Apple Original series. The world is on fire. I decided to do something about it on November 17th.

This place.

It's not ours. Believe me, the most massive event of the year arrives. If you come with me, you'll know everything. I promise.

Oh my God.

Go, go, Go.

Legacy of Monsters streaming November 17th only on Apple TV.

Apple Card is the credit card created by Apple. You earn 3% daily cash back upfront when you use it to buy a new iPhone, 15 AirPods, or any products at Apple. And you can automatically grow your daily cash at 4.15% annual percentage yield when you open a high yield savings account. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on iPhone. Apple Card subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple card owners subject to eligibility. Savings accounts by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC Terms apply.

Welcome everyone to the Rise, the Young podcast. Today we are here with Duncan Cock Foster, the co founder of Nifty Gateway. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Duncan.

Thanks, Casey. Thanks for having me.

Of course. First things first, congratulations on all the success with Nifty and now you guys are a part of Gemini. I want to ask you, when did you learn about NFTs as a whole? Because obviously everyone knows about them now. The market is exploding and you guys were really pioneers of this whole entire space. So I'd love to hear when you originally heard about NFTs and how you got involved with building an incredible platform.

Totally. I mean, I first learned about them back in 2017 and you know, there was actually a little bit of mainstream media coverage of NFTs back then. It was very brief, it was a very small moment, but I was really interested in crypto technology, specifically crypto technology that wasn't finance oriented. And I thought NFTs kind of fit the bill perfectly. So I guess what I would say is back in 2017, with CryptoKitties, the core concepts of an NFT got off the ground, but a lot of people sort of entered the space and then decided the that it wasn't going to work. And so they just left and moved on to other stuff. And really the only difference is my brother and I just stuck around and kept working on NFTs throughout the bear market and the crypto winter.

Wow, that's incredible. So when did you and your brother not only initially start it, but become entrepreneurs and start your first venture? Even before Nifty?

Oh man. I mean, we always, it was always our dream to be entrepreneurs and start a successful business. And that started from a young age. It was Actually, when I was a teenager and the iPhone had just come out and we were obsessed with Steve Jobs, and so I begged my parents to buy an iPhone. We were 13 back then, I think, and they refused to do it. And so I had no way to acquire an iPhone because I was 13 and no one would hire me. So I started a business selling bread to my neighbors. And it took about a month, but the product was very popular because I would bake the bread fresh for them and then deliver it right to their door. And I had a subscription model, which is always awesome. So they would sign up to get a weekly bread delivery, and it took me about a month and a half before I earned the money for an iPhone. So it was a huge success. I probably never should have stopped. Once I got the iPhone, I shut it down. You know, if only I kept working on it, it could be the biggest bread delivery business in the US right now.

I love it. So, I mean, you and your brother, you guys both, as you said, started Nifty Gateway. When you guys were working through that, as you said, bear market, what was it about the NFT space that kept you guys motivated and excited about the future of the industry?

Totally. I mean, the main thing really was the fact that, yes, it was kind of a small number of people who were into NFTs, but the people who were into NFTs were incredibly into NFTs. It was like all they thought about, it was all they did all day long was like, buy, trade, sell NFTs. So it was like, yes, the total number of people was small, but the average passion per participant was incredibly high. And that, more than anything, is what made me bullish on the space long term. I think that's kind of a good signal to look for when you're trying to predict what will be big in the future.

Yeah, absolutely. And you guys really not only became a market leader, but in my eyes as a consumer. When I first started hearing about NFTs, even just earlier this year, like Nifty Gateway was where I first landed. All the artists that were dropping the most exclusive pieces were going to Nifty. And I know you guys really have nft, a curated roster of talent and artists on the platform. Was that always the case early on? And how has that changed over time?

Yeah, I mean, that we. We really did set out when we first started building our NFT marketplace. Like, what we noticed about the NFT space was there was kind of a lack of a. There's a lack of compelling content. I mean, NFTs are just a creative medium. Right, right. So how successful NFTs are is very dependent on how exciting the content is that people are creating. I mean, movies and video games are obviously huge businesses now, but if no one made any good movies, they wouldn't be huge businesses. So we started off with an emphasis on curation because we kind of thought that that was one of the bigger problems with the NFT space was that there wasn't enough high quality projects to get people interested in. I think since we've entered the space, that's really changed. And the number of high quality artists, the number of high quality collectibles projects, just the number of high quality NFTs overall has blown up since then. And so now our focus has really expanded where we're really trying to give people access to all different types of NFTs. We're still doing curating, we're still doing the jobs that we did and working with artists to help them grow as NFT artists and build their careers. But yeah, I would say accessibility has always been our focus. And now really the goal of Nifty Gateway is to be a gateway for people to get into all different types of NFTs and not just art NFTs.

I love that question. How long were you guys into it before Gemini came knocking on your door to. I believe it was an acquisition, correct?

Yes. Yes, it was.

Yes. That's what I'm very aware of. Just the whole story there. Right. Two sets of twins. It's quite ironic and I love the story, but where were you guys in the process of the platform when Gemini Tyler Cameron came to you and were interested in an acquisition?

We were still very early stage, so it was just the two of us. It was just Griffin and I at the time of the acquisition. Yeah. And we were about seven months into the company.

Wow, that is so cool to think of. I mean, were you guys. You always hear from founders like, hey, we're building a seller. We'll never sell. What was your initial thought process when you guys were starting the company? Because I'm sure, you know, looking back, it just makes perfect sense for a platform like Gemini and Nifty to work alongside each other with the infrastructure that they have. So what was your thought process as those conversations were happening? Because I think a lot of young entrepreneurs that listen to this podcast, you always have to ask themselves that question, especially in tech. Right. When it comes down to partnerships that can make each product greater. I would love to hear your thought process on that. As a founder.

I, you know, personally, I Think the whole never sell thing is a conspiracy invented by VCs, because, like, they're, you know, the VCs are the ones who are looking for the home runs. And you know, maybe the VCs are most likely they're in a financial situation where like a million dollars, two million dollars doesn't make that much of a difference for them. So they're the ones who have propagated this whole never sell message because they're looking for that $100 million, $200 million exit. But as, as a founder, I think like you have, you always have to look out for your best interest and you always. I think it's also really important to keep in mind that, you know, life is not a, it's not one single game. It's a series of games. So like, selling. If you're, I mean, we were 20, 24 at the time. If you're 24 and you sell a company, it's, you know, extremely beneficial to your, to your whole career, you know, versus the. There. There's always downside risk when you're starting a company. Like, it's, it's good to like, think about, okay, what am I really trying to do with my life? And what's the, what's the bigger picture here? So, yeah, I think like, the whole dogma of never sell is misguided. And yeah, it's, it's mostly pushed by VCs who are, who are already like, wealthy enough that they don't care about. Yeah, they don't care about a small exit. They're, they're the ones who really are pushing for the a hundred million dollar, two hundred million exit. But for a founder, you should really think about what's best for you. And yeah, I mean, like, if you sell one company, that doesn't preclude you from starting a bigger company in the future, in fact, it like, will probably help you do that. And I think a lot of the most famous successful entrepreneurs now have had small exits that build up and they learn more along the way. And the whole myth of you start one company and that goes public at $10 billion is just that a myth?

Absolutely no. And I absolutely love that feedback. I mean, even for myself. I've just launched a tech platform called Media Kits, and we launched in August, but we've been at it for little over a year now. And just hearing that from someone like yourself is always great to hear because I think it breaks down the, as you said, conspiracies that you might hear on Twitter or just from listening to other people online. So I appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah. It's always funny to me to hear like the, you know, the 40, 40 to 50 year old VCs who are like, you know, they're, they're spending half their year on vacation in Italy and they're writing blog posts about how important it is to work 247 and spend every day of your 20s working. And I'm like, who's really benefiting from this guys anyway?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I'm curious. I just love the conversation of acquisition and obviously working alongside of another company. How did the business change and even you and your brother's operators once you guys got acquired by Gemini, working alongside Tyler Cameron and the whole Gemini team?

Oh, the whole thing absolutely leveled up immeasurably. We were two 24 year olds who really didn't know much about programming. We didn't know much about how to run a business, how to recruit people, anything like that. And we were plugged into Gemini, which was around a 300 person company back then, was significantly larger than us. And right off the bat we got, we, you know, the people helping us were all of a sudden, you know, so much more knowledgeable. I think every, every startup to some degree, like you really have to, especially in a new technology area like crypto, a lot of your success depends on your ability to recruit very knowledgeable people. And a lot of tech products, you know, like an NFT exchange, a crypto exchange. If you don't have adequate technology, you're not going to make it as a product, you know, and like it's so like you either, either you have to raise enough money and, and be compelling enough to pitch people to come work for your company, which can be hard to do if you're a young founder just starting out or you can, you know, that's really what the acquisition route helped us with most of all, I think is the expertise and the talent. It really just gave us a ton of leverage. And then also like, you know, the reputation and distribution of the Winklevoss twins is enormous. So Kent, that also helped enormously.

Absolutely. And how ironic though, the two sets of twins that when I heard that story I was like, come on, this has to be made up. This is great. And then I saw recently actually you were with my buddy Justin Everson, is that right? In New York.

Justin Averisano?

Yeah. Yes. Avisano. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. He's a good friend of mine. Great guy.

Yeah, he's awesome. He was actually the person that really got me into nfts earlier this year, in February, March, he came to my apartment here in Marina del Rey and we just started jamming about it. It's just been super cool to see someone like him and how he's not only become so successful in the space, but such a voice. And that brings me to my next question of where do you see NFTs going from this point forward? You have some anomalies like Justin that are creating such important collections of art through his photography and stories. But then you have, on the flip side, you know, every other day you have different projects launching with maybe not the best teams or the best end goal. And there's such a divide, in my opinion, between like the great NFT collections that will last throughout time and people that are just coming in here to, you know, maybe make some quick money and then move on with their life. Like, as someone that's been in the space for so long and a believer and has built and sold a company in space, where do you think the current market is and where do you see it going?

Right. So, I mean, it's funny you say that because the current market is far more developed than it was when I started and, you know, picture a market with all the bad stuff but none of the good stuff. And that's, that's been the NFT space for, for quite a long time where like, you know, the, the average quality of NFT projects in my opinion, has actually gone up significantly in the past three years. And it's really a medium. It's a medium with a lot of depth, which I think is underappreciated. Like there's, it's really like fascinating the things that you can do within, within nft. I mean, it's a, it, it's. I think we're actually still in the early days of exploring what we can do. Yeah, I think the, yeah, the NFT market is, it's far more mature than I've ever seen it before. You know, there's, there's a lot of times where the early days of the NFT market were really defined by existential doubt. And when I say existential doubt, I mean people participating didn't know if the NFT would be, if the NFTs would exist or anyone would be talking about them in five to 10 years. That was like a cloud over the whole space. And when we saw people spending like $50,000 on an NFT, we kind of like, we kind of lost our shit. Because that's a car, it's a lot of money. The funny thing is that purchase turned out to be an incredible purchase and it was quite visionary. But at the time it was, yeah, I mean, existential doubt is the right word because back then nobody knew if what they were buying would even be recognized, as if anyone would even remember it existed in five years. So yeah, the NFT space is in a much better place than it is now. It's in a much better place than it was a few years ago, which I think is. Most newcomers will come in and they'll say like, wow, I can't believe how immature the NFT space is. But yeah, my perspective is very much the opposite where I'm like, wow, I can't believe how much it matured so quickly.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'd love to ask you, you guys have seen around the corner to not only to build the marketplace, but like NFTs, there's so many use cases, right? And we see this all the time across different verticals of music, of entertainment, of just obviously privacy and transparency. But where do you think the biggest opportunity is right now? Where the industry could catch up to it. Right? Whether that comes down to displaying NFTs or the actual use case, like, what do you think is the next big movement in the NFT space in the next couple of years, moving forward?

Oh boy. I mean, it's always really difficult to say and you know, frankly, I've been horrible at predicting this and if I think if I was better able to predict it, you know, maybe I wouldn't have my day job because I'd be retired off my NFT trading money. So I mean that, that's quite literally the multi, multimillion dollar question. So let me know when you figure it out. Casey, I think there's a lot of. Yeah, there's a lot of promising areas. Gaming is really promising. NFTs with any kind of utility are really promising. A lot of NFTs is sort of like giving you an access pass either to physical or digital content. We're really seeing that develop a lot. So yeah, I mean, I think really there's infinite possibilities and I think this technology has so much depth that it's kind of like predicting what the use cases of the Internet will be in the 90s. There's some obvious things, but there's a lot of stuff that's really hard to predict. I mean, imagine predicting Airbnb in the 90s. It's tough.

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. I do want to change it up here a little bit. I know obviously based on your Twitter, you have a cryptopunk in your profile picture. When did you buy your first cryptopunk?

Well, I bought my first and only CryptoPunk in January 2020.

Okay. Wow.

I wish I'd bought more.

What did you pay for it, if you don't mind me asking? Back in January 2020, I paid a.

Little over 1 ETH. Wow. 1.1, 1.2 ETH. Yeah. And ETH was like $200 back then, so yeah, it was one of the best investments I've ever made.

That's. Yeah, that's incredible. Just to see like the momentum not only that project has had, but the, the level of respect across the industry is so cool. And you know, it makes you think about how other projects have not only been able to build their own project on that same scale, but to think about the impact it has culturally. Right. When you think about your day to day and only at Nifty, but how you view the world, what would be your biggest piece of advice to your younger self when you were starting Nifty for all the young entrepreneurs listening today.

I mean, besides buying more crypto folks, That's a good one. I think the biggest piece of advice that I would give is you really do have to be prepared for all sorts of ups and downs. And the best thing that you can do is figure out a way to keep executing throughout all those ups and downs. Because, yeah, I mean it's almost ridiculous to talk about now, but as I said in my first two and a half years in the NFT industry, it was basically every conversation I had I would explain to people what an NFT was and they would laugh and, and talk about how ridiculous of a concept it was. And you know, every night we would go home and we would like. It was a legitimate thought of like, wow, well, is anyone actually going to use this technology like ever? I mean this is, you can just like download an image file. This is this whole thing just like silly and ridiculous and like, look at, you know, look at how much that's changed. So I think, you know, I saw a lot of people who like, faced with that doubt, gave up and like moved on to other industries. And I think if they had stuck with it and kept building, then they would be, you know, way further ahead in their careers right now and much more professionally successful. So yeah, I think you should expect like a lot of doubt. You should expect to deal with situations that you never thought you had to deal with. You know, negative press, like people talking shit about you, negativity. That's all to be expected, you know, that's all part of the, part of the journey. So don't get depressed about it. You know, don't let it prevent you from, from working. You know, you just gotta, you gotta calibrate and expect the fact that it's gonna be like difficult and stressful.

I love that. How has it been working with your brother? And I ask that cause I mean, I'm a brother of three, youngest of three and we don't have any type of working relationships and I always find it so cool to think that, you know, launching a company with my brother would be so fun. But also you have that level of trust and respect throughout the years. But what's been that relationship with you and your brother since the launch of Nifty? And how has that process been for you guys?

Yeah, I think it is nice to work with your brother on something because you do have that built in relationship. Obviously you know each other really well. That, that goes a long way. Normally with co founders you have to work for a long time to develop trust and you know, co founder relationships. Breaking down is a, a huge cause of startup failure and honestly one of the more difficult things to navigate. So yeah, I mean, I think in, in my case it, it was really beneficial to, to work with Griffin, you know, So I think that there's a reason why you see so many founder or so many brother led businesses and brother led companies. It is kind of funny though. You can also see the, the same dynamic can almost switch over and you also see a lot of instances where brothers are like rivals and they're solely driven by beating their brother and they don't even talk anymore. So thankfully we have the former and not the latter type of relationship. But I think in my case, yeah, it's been enormous and I really doubt that Nifty would have been successful if my co founder had been someone else.

I love that. And I know you guys said when launching Nifty, you guys weren't the most technical people. I remember you said it was both just you and your brother Griffin launching it. Who was the person that was developing the platform early on.

We weren't the most technical people, but we were still technical enough. So I did the back end coding and he did the front end coding. So that, that was actually dream team right there. Yeah, Dream team. Yeah. No, and that's, that's actually great because now I really have a deep knowledge of like blockchain. I have a deep knowledge of how our system works. I'm not day to day coding anymore, but you know, it Gives me a much better insight into the product, into what we're capable of doing. So, you know, I think being a technical founder was, was really beneficial for me and for us. Yeah.

Even when I think about the dynamic of that relationship, like, I'd love for you to take us back to just like early days with your brother. Like, was it something you guys strive for, to start a company together early on or what was that childhood formation and bond like with your brother?

No, I wouldn't say that we strive to start a company together early on. I would say that after, after college, we both kind of decided what it was. It was what we wanted to do. So Griffin was actually working on another, a different startup and that's where he learned how to code front ends. And then I got really into NFTs and I convinced him to join the NFT movement because, yeah, so I saw the potential in NFTs before he did. If he tries to tell you. If tries to tell you otherwise, he's lying.

I love that where. I know you talked about it brief at the beginning, but what got you excited about NFTs and where was that community back then? Because, I mean, obviously, as everyone sees now, it's just Twitter is the place to be, to be in the news about NFTs. Where were you getting that information and connecting with people in the space?

Yeah, I mean, the community back then was on Twitter and it was on Discord and it. So the location really hasn't changed. I think what most people. Again, what most people missed is like, yeah, the number of people who are into NFTs was very small. And frankly, the number of people who were into crypto at all was very small back then. But the people who were into it were super, super into it. And so that was really overwhelmingly the feeling I had back then where I would see people talking about like, oh, I'm leaving NFTs, the industry is far too early. And then I would log on to Discord and people would be so excited over some new release or they'd be obsessed over a new NFT project, even back then. And that was kind of my sense. I was like, oh, I think if more people logged into this Discord and more people saw how passionate the NFT community is, they would be bigger believers in NFTs. And I think in retrospect that was right. It just took a few years. So this is actually, I mean, I was kind of just following. I think Paul Graham has an essay where he says the best way to come up with a startup idea is to live in the future, as he calls it. So find the things that a small number of technically capable people are doing on their nights and weekends and that they're really passionate about. And NFTs just fit that description really well. So that was really the framework and mental model I was using. So I guess it worked. Paul Graham was right. Yeah.

Speaking of Paul Graham and just mentors, do you have any specific mentors that helped you throughout your journey of launching Nifty and throughout that process of building that company?

Oh, yeah. I mean, there are a few different people that I met along the way who were helpful at different stages. I mean, Adam Draper and Brayden from Boost VC definitely come to mind. They're the ones who invested in Nifty first and frankly, we wouldn't be where we are without them. So that was enormously helpful. Obviously, the Winklevoss twins have been fantastic mentors over the years and they're extremely knowledgeable, extremely smart, and have great judgment. So also shout out to them.

Totally.

Yeah, I would say those are.

And speaking of that too, I love that. And speaking of just Tyler and Cameron, I had the pleasure, I think last year, right around this time, I interviewed Tyler on my podcast. And that's actually, funny enough, one of my biggest podcast interviews, because he was predicting future of bitcoin, talking about just crypto as a whole, and people loved it. Speaking on that community aspect, what has been the biggest lesson you've learned from working alongside Cameron and Tyler? Because obviously their track record is not only incredible, but as I said before, have been able to see around corners throughout their career and now with you guys working so close to them, I'm sure you have some great insight from a working relationship, but also just how you view the world.

Totally. I mean, in my opinion, Cameron and Tyler are kind of the epitome of a steady hand. They, they don't like, they don't let themselves. They don't let like fear or doubt, like take. Talk themselves out of good ideas, if you know what I mean. It's like they'll really like, they see things with a clear pair of eyes and that's, I think, what allowed them to see, to spot so many trends before they were big. I mean, social media, bitcoin, and also NFTs. They were like years ahead on all three of those topics. And yeah, I honestly think it comes from their relaxed, focused demeanor where they're not too stressed, they're not too worried. A lot of people are like, especially in early stage environments, you see this all the time. Where people are just afraid to have their own convictions and they talk themselves out of good ideas just by overthinking it. And the wake of us twins, I think, are just really good at seeing things clearly. So I think that's definitely. I think a big part of seeing things clearly is continuing to believe in your thesis throughout all the ups and downs. I would say that's kind of like their biggest strength. Can you imagine buying $10 million worth of Bitcoin in 2013? It's just insane.

Yeah, that's incredible. Just speaking on that, a couple more questions before we wrap up here. Duncan, you know, if. If you weren't to have started Nifty, what do you think you'd be doing right now?

Oh, that's a great question. I almost became a journalist actually, so I'd probably be a writer journalist. I don't know how exactly that would play out. Maybe I'd be. I'd probably have a substack and I'd be, you know, fighting to get subscribers. Oh my God, that's great.

I think that's important. Like early chat aspirations, like being a journalist was. That was one for you, you're saying?

No, I was really into writing in college and I've always loved to write and I keep meaning to do more of it, honestly. So I just kind of enjoy the lifestyle of almost. My ideal day is like, wake up early, like spend a little time writing and then spend the rest of the day reading or consuming content. And that's kind of the approach I take to everything. So like, that's actually kind of the approach I take to startups as well, where I try and spend as much time as I can learning about the history of successful companies. You know, like reading all the startup biographies. The acquired podcast is an excellent resource. And then, yeah, based on that, I try and like think about how to apply the lessons of history to the situation I'm in. So I think, yeah, if I wasn't an entrepreneur, I would probably be doing that, but I would just be reading, I don't know, like some intellectual debate, debate of the day or like politics news or something like that, which, honestly, as I talk about it, you know, spending time on politics sounds way worse than spending time on NFTs.

Absolutely. Last question before we wrap up here, Duncan. Just thinking about the future of Nifty Gateway Gemini. What are you most excited about on a day to day and looking into the future at what you guys are building at Nifty.

The team is amazing. That's what I'm most excited about. We really have a talented group working at Nifty now, and we just launched a big website redesign. It's really amazing to see, you know, people who are. Are like, really talented at their craft. So programmers and. And people who work with artists. Both of them. Yeah, it's really great to see them execute at a high level. And now my job is basically more or less just like, helping them execute and then doing some, like, sales stuff and kind of being the face of the company. So I think, yeah, like, seeing. Seeing, like, people, I mean, they're. They're like craftsmen, in my opinion. Craftsmen and craftswomen, the engineers at Nifty. So seeing them, like, work and create awesome things is really satisfying.

Totally. Well, Duncan, before we wrap up here, where is the best place for everyone listening to follow you, to stay in touch with you as well as learn more about Nifty and just follow the journey?

Totally. I'm on Twitter then. Yeah, nifty. Gateway.com is the best way to learn about Nifty.

Perfect. Well, Duncan, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone listening, if you haven't already followed Duncan, make sure you do. And thank you again for tuning in.

Thanks, Casey. Much appreciated. Perfect.

Awesome. We got it. This was fun. One second, let me just save this. Do you do podcast?

Sorry, what'd you say, Casey?

Monarch Legacy of Monsters An Apple original series. The world is on fire. I decided to do something about it on November 17th.

This place.

It's not ours. Believe me, the most massive event of the year arrives. If you come with me, you'll know everything. I promise.

My God.

Go.

Monarch Legacy of monsters streaming November 17th only on Apple TV. Plus.