Elise Hu - Hosting "TED Talks Daily" & The Future of Podcasting

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Rise of the Young podcast. Today we have someone who I am very excited to have on the show and that is Elise Hu. Elise is the host of TED Talks Daily, which is a TED Podcast which gets millions of downloads an episode. Between 2015 and 2018, she was an international correspondent and NPR's the First Seoul Bureau Chief. Her coverage included locations such as Korea, Japan, and many countries across Asia. She joined NPR in 2011 after helping launch the digital news startup the Texas Tribune. She's an honors graduate from the University of Missouri Columbia School of Journalism, and her work has earned a Dupont Columbia Award, a Garnet Foundation Award for Innovation in Watchdog Journalism, a national Edward R. Murrow Award for Best Online Video, and the Austin Chronicle once named her the best TV reporter who can Write. Now, I'm very excited to have Elise on the show today. So make sure you follow follow her on Instagram, screenshot this episode and post it on your Instagram story so that we can both see that you listened to this episode. And that being said, make sure you subscribe and enjoy the episode. All right, what's going on everyone?

Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. Today we have Elise who here with us. She is the host of TED Talks Daily and much, much more. So that being said, Elise, thanks so much for coming on the show.

I'm so excited to be here and we are both talking from home today because we are in this global catastrophe. But it's really awesome to be able to connect anyway through the Internet.

Absolutely. So. Well, first off, I admire everything you've done in the broadcasting world. Like I said, I know you're the host of TED Talks Daily. You've been working with NPR for quite some time and your story just how you got into here is phenomenal. I've done so much research on you but to really start this podcast, I'd love for you to give some insight into what you do on a daily basis with ted, with NPR and all the networks that you work with.

Yeah, so I worked for NPR full time as a staffer for nine or 10 years. So almost a decade I was on staff with npr, which is to say they were kind of like my main squeeze. And I had a day to day gig with them that changed depending on what I was interested in. Most recently, my big job over the course of last year was to investigate the future, so as the future correspondent. And I did a whole video series about kind of how humans are becoming more like cyborgs. Like not just with biohacking, but also with ways that we can now implant devices into our brains to enhance ourselves or to solve for certain problems like blindness or movement problems, things like that. Yep. So I was primarily just with npr, but after I moved to la, I really wanted to live that kind of LA multi hyphenate project, person based life where you kind of had different hustles at the same time and your job promiscuous. I wanted to become more promiscuous when it came to how I worked. And so I really worked hard over the last couple of months or so I would say the last three to six months to change things up so that I'm still attached to npr. As they say in Hollywood, we're still attached. And I changed my role to a host at large. So I fill in on projects and I come in and host podcasts or shows or report stories every once in a while, but it's not my main squeeze anymore. So now I'm doing several things at once. I have NPR where I'm a host at large, but also I'm hosting TED Talks Daily starting today. So today is actually launch day for the first time that TED Talks Daily, which has been around and is one of America's top 20 podcasts, today is the first day it's hosted and it's going to have somebody introducing the podcast and introducing the talk of the day, and that's going to. And so that job just requires watching a ton of TED Talks and going to TED salons and TED conferences and being part of that TED community. So I'm so excited about that. And I feel like I'm gonna become insufferable really soon with all my like TED Talk. The two other things I'm working on are I have just closed a book deal to write a book about Korean beauty and my time in Korea. So that's gonna be super fun. That's gonna be a big focus of my 2020, and I can do that whether we are able to get out of our houses or not. And then the fourth thing is I started a little company, so I'm doing the entrepreneurship thing also. I have a company called reasonablevolume.com or @reasonablevolume, it lives@reasonablevolume.com, but the company's called Reasonable Volume. And we're helping people and brands make podcasts.

Very cool. Very, very. So talk to me about so TED Talks Daily. This is. You said today is the day that you're announcing that you're going to host, correct?

Today is the day I start as the host. Yeah, it's April 6th, because I know.

I've been listening to that podcast for a while. And you said it's top 20 podcasts in America.

How did that come about?

Right. Where you've been a journalist for years now and to be and have this role, what does that look like on a daily basis with now hosting the top 20 podcasts called TED Talks Daily.

So the job itself doesn't require a whole lot of my time and energy because, you know, it's one of the four things, it's one of my four buckets. But I would say it all happens remotely. I don't have to work out of ted's New York office. And I got to know them through NPR because NPR and TED have a joint show together called TED Radio Hour and that is broadcast across all the NPR stations. And it's a weekly show and it's also a podcast. And because of that partnership, I got to know some of the TED folks and when they decided they wanted a hosted experience for TED Talks Daily, they approached me about it just to see if I would be interested, even though it's not a full time thing. And I was like, no, that's perfect because I'm trying to be a project person. So that's kind of the roundabout way I started doing it. The day to day work requires just watching a lot of TED Talks. So they will there's an editorial team at TED that decide kind of what goes on the web site and then what's going to be coming down the pipe when it comes to which talks will be featured. And they are either recent, it's a mix of recent ones like recent TEDx events or TED salons and old ones like archive talks from two or three years ago. So once they decide which ones are going to be coming down, I watch like I don't know, I would say 10 to 12 TED talks a week. They're pretty short, so it's not like a huge amount of time. It's not a huge lift. And then for each one, I think about, like, what struck me, what stood out. And then I do some writing and I've been doing broadcast writing my entire adult life, so it doesn't take me too long to Write like a 30 second intro or so that introduces the talk and hopefully gets people to stick around. There's some reading of ads, there's some like promotional stuff. But besides that, once we start gathering and convening in groups again, a big part of my job will be to be an ambassador for the brand and just to go out and like be at the conferences, talk about. Yeah. Talk about TED with other folks and just be part of the community.

Very, very cool. And I'm curious. I love the whole podcasting industry as a whole. I've been doing it for the last two years myself. I started my podcast when I was 17. I'm 19 now. And it's changed so much, doesn't these past two and a half years. And for someone that's been in journalism for quite some time, how are you looking at the podcast industry and how has it changed and where do you see it going?

So especially since I'm in Los Angeles, what's changed is a lot of big companies and big brands, like the big entertainment companies are really getting in on it. Like now I have an agent. I didn't need one before, you know, but because so much of Hollywood is now optioning narrative podcasts for film or for television series, and then they're trying to find those, like, very particular crime stories or whatever. True crime is really hot, right. And so they're trying to make money from this. Right. In a big way. And it's a big sort of land grab or a gold rush or whatever you want to call it. So the biggest change is, you know, podcasting 1.0, which was probably in the mid aughts, like 2004, 2005, when blogging was really big. Podcasting also came out so strong in the first wave and it was really homespun, right. It was a lot of like Slate came out with its original podcast back then, but it was more sort of independent. And now, I would say over the last two or three years, it's become big business. And companies like Gimlet, companies that are started from people with like a strong this American Life or storytelling tradition, like Adam Davidson was a guy From Planet Money, his Sony, you know, Sony, the big company. Sony came in and bought a big stake in his company. So you're seeing a rush of cash into the industry that is really unprecedented. I don't know how it's going to shake out, but that's kind of the biggest change.

Yeah, And I find it fascinating because, like, I know, have you heard of, you know, the company like Parcast, they got acquired by Spotify last year. Then there's the podcast. Yeah, gets acquired by Spotify. What do you think caused the influx of, like you said, turning it into big business? And do you see these, you know, large networks like npr, are they acquiring smaller firms or original content or what's the play based on what you know about the industry of where you see it going? As an expert?

Well, one of the reasons, one of the big there. I guess there's two explanations that I would point to. One is that there was proof of success, right? So when, when Spotify came in and bought Gimlet, it could. Things could have gone one way or the other. But because Gimlet was purchased by Spotify, more and more people thought, oh, okay, this is. Or more business started to believe that, oh, this is where we should put our dollars. So some of it is just group think. Right. Like right now this is hot. And then there's a rush toward it because there were some first movers. The other. And this was the reason a few years ago when a lot of podcasting companies and production companies spun out, it was that, hey, we are living these very busy multitasking lives and the audience, the potential audience for podcasting is huge versus the potential audience for like Internet readers because that is so saturated already. Like all of us are reading things on our devices, but not everybody is a podcast listener. And so there is an opportunity to capture a market. And so that's there. But then, you know, on the la, on the Hollywood side, it's like, hey, we are always hungry and curious about new ideas and especially narrative ideas that can sell and be turned into film and television. Right. And so a lot of that is coming out of podcasts. And so the kinds of podcasts that Hollywood's going after tend to be those really storytelling, narrative driven ones rather than the interview ones that are easier to make.

Totally love that. So I want to sort of take it back just how you got into it. I know that you, you know, you had an honors graduate at the University of Missouri and you've had, you've not only won awards like the DuPont Columbia Award and The Garnett Foundation Award and all these awards that I'd love to hear more about from you. But how did this passion for broadcasting come into your life?

When I was in third grade.

Okay.

Yeah. So you took it back to college. It's way before college. When I was in third grade, on Fridays, I was bused to a different school called the center for Creative Learning. So if you measured for whatever you're tested or whatever as gifted and talented in that school district that I went to in suburban St. Louis. So I was in St. Louis for my elementary school years and then grew up the rest of my, like, middle and high school in Texas. But in St. Louis, if you were considered a gifted elementary school kid, you got bussed away on one day of the week to a different school called the center for Creative Learning. And at the center for Creative Learning, they like, did all these sort of newfangled ways of teaching that was a lot more student directed and a lot more focused. So instead of just like straight math or straight language arts or whatever, you would spend an entire semester that semester in third grade, you would spend an entire semester putting together a newscast and everybody would have different roles. And that's how I was first introduced to broadcast news. And this newscast that we did, we actually went into an actual, like, studio, I guess it was the public broadcasting studio to make the final 30 minute newscast. And. And then the students had a lot of responsibility. Like, there were people who were floor directors, there were people who were camera technicians, there were people who were actually punching the buttons, changing the cameras. I was the anchor. Even though I had applied to be the reporter, I really wanted to be the field reporter because I love being out in the field. But then they made me the anchor. And so as a class of 20 or so kids, we put together a broadcast news show. And maybe five of them, like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of news. And that was my first introduction. I loved it. And I was like, this is what I want to do for a living, if it exists as a job. And of course it does. And so I decided that when I was eight.

Wow. So it was that early where you're just like, this is what I want to do.

Yeah. And then I happened to be in St. Louis.

I feel like that doesn't happen a lot anymore. Like, you know, people being so certain at a young age. I'm fascinated by that.

Yeah. I mean, when my oldest daughter was five, she wanted to be a mermaid. And I don't want to burst her bubble. I don't want to Burst her bubble. But I don't think she's going to become a mermaid when she grows up.

Yeah, totally.

But yeah, it doesn't really happen that often. My brother certainly isn't like that. My brother is still trying to figure out what he wants to do and he's 30 something. But by seventh grade, I decided that I wanted to cover politics. I discovered that I really loved kind of the levers of power and congress and elections. And so by seventh grade, I wrote a piece, or not a piece, a report for seventh grade language arts. And I said, hey, I want to be a reporter, but I want to be a reporter covering politics because I really love current events and I really love, you know, how we can take part in democracy and in it. So I not only decided what I wanted to do When I was 8, I decided my specialty by the time I was like 12 or 13. Here I am.

Yeah. So how did that progress into college and how you, you know, went into. Because I feel like for me, for example, I want to talk to, you know, someone young that may be going into college or that doesn't know what they want to do. Because for me, I didn't go to college. I graduated high school, moved up to Arizona. I'm going to continuing everything I'm doing business wise. And I found my lane in my podcast world. But what would you say to people that are going to college that may not be certain with what they're doing? And how did you carve out exactly what you wanted to do?

I think a lot of trial and error, for one. I mean, you have to have kind of hard times, right? So you learn how resilient you are, for one. But then two, what it is that you really care about the most. I think we're all going through that right now as we're in various states of quarantine, because we have to spend a lot of time with ourselves. But then a lot of times sort of just idle, right. We usually had places to go, bars or restaurants or whatever, or you could meet up with friends to kind of distract yourself. But now we have to sort of. We're forced to be still and be inward. And that actually allows us to figure out what really matters to us. Right. And what kind of is in your heart. And I think that's awesome. That's a good outgrowth of all of this. So for me, how did I find my lane? I did a lot of what you do, Casey, which is I found people that I really admire. I found people who were doing the things that I wanted to do really great writers, for example. I've always thought that writers and people who could write really well are kind of mysterious and noble. And I wanted to be like them. And so I found really good writers. I found people who were great at live shots, you know, people who are just really smooth on camera. And I either wrote to them or I tried to intern for them. I did an internship when I was 17 or 18 with WFAA, which is the big ABC affiliate in Dallas where I grew up. And I met some of the best broadcast journalists that I've ever known. Like, to this day, I still think they're some of the best. And I followed them and I tried to learn from them. So at first you kind of try to fake it till you make it right. You kind of emulate. But then you learn your own style and have your own voice. And carving out your own voice is something that is, I think, a lifelong project. Right. You'll start it when you're 17 or you're 18 or you decide whatever you want to do. But I still am trying to really be true to who I am and what I want to say and put out there in the world.

Very cool. Talk to me about these awards that you've been honored with, because I think it's fascinating and I think that anyone who's accomplishing things on that high of a level, I'd love for you to find what those are and what they mean to you.

Yeah, I don't remember them all specifically. Some of them really stand out to me more than others. For example, I know I have a national Edward R. Murrow for my video work. It was probably for about. It was probably work that I did about 10 years ago now. And what it was for is a project that I did called Stump Interrupted. And it was. It's called that because it was political stump speeches. So Mitt Romney or Ron Paul or Texas Governor Rick Perry at the time will go out and they make stump speeches to be elected. Right. And they give the same exact speech every time with few changes. And it has like the anecdote about their childhood, and it has the anecdote about, like, somebody, some constituent of theirs coming up to them, coming back from the war or whatever. And then it has all these policy proposals. And what I did there was instead of. And people never watch these straight, Right. Like, you'll see maybe a clip of 24 seconds of it on the news. But it's really useful to see an entire stump speech if you're. Don't get Bored. And so what I did is when I was little on VH1, there was an awesome show and now there's kind of vintage versions of it called pop up video. And it was music videos where they would do like pop up bubbles and they'd be like, you know, the hairspray used by this particular brand is, you know, Garnier Fructis. And it got stuck in whatever's hair. It had like little, little tidbits and extra information. Or see that drummer, he used to date that dancer in this particular video, you know. And so it was just like little pop up video, pop up bubbles that would come up and there was a little graphic or there was a little sound effect that came with it. And so what I did is I married a stump speech. So just a politician speaking at a podium with pop up video and did little pop up bubbles for the stump speech. So it'd be like the font that is in this Mitt Romney sign is Helvetica Noo, you know, size 48 or whatever. And then anytime he made a claim like, oh, he wants to cut the National Endowment for the Arts, that would mean you wouldn't see this symphony anymore or the Kennedy center would be closed for 400 days, you know, or whatever. So it was just kind of like a fun thing for me. So every award that I've ever won has been for something that I thought that I would watch or something that I thought that I would listen to that then got awarded or recognized. And so I think I don't, I certainly don't do journalism for the money and I certainly don't do journalism or create anything just to get awards. The awards are kind of a nice thing, a nice recognition by your peers for stuff that hopefully you would watch. Like, hopefully you're making something because you really like it or you're making something that you feel like people should listen to because you would listen to it. And that's an important test. And that's kind of like the path I think that I've taken when it comes to anything that I make or create.

Very cool. I appreciate the insight. I want to change gears here just regarding your expertise in broadcasting and podcasting. And I talk a lot about, you know, if people were to start a podcast today, what should they do? So I'd love to ask you, if someone's listening to this right now and they're looking to get into journalism or start a podcast, what is your advice in 2020 with it, you know, it being significantly different than it was 1224 months ago.

So there's a lot of debate right now about whether we've hit peak podcasts. Like, do we need to put another podcast out into the world?

Yeah.

And my take on that is, if you want to create or make things, why not? Like, I don't. I don't like or buy the argument that there's certain gatekeeper like.

You froze on me real quick, Beth. Sorry. You kind of.

Okay, so let me take the. Oh, no, my Internet connection is unstable.

I can hear you now. Is it?

Okay, you're good now.

We'll just cut that.

Okay, cool. So there's a lot of debate right now whether we've hit peak podcast. Like, there was some imaginary cabal of powers that be that, like, oh, we don't need any more podcasts out in the world because we've hit 300,000 or however many there are. And I just don't share that opinion because I think if you are making or creating, you should make and create. Like, nobody ever says, oh, there's. We've hit peak watercolor art. There's too many pieces of watercolor paintings out in the world. Like, if you want to create, create, you know, like, do it. And there shouldn't be barriers to stop you. But different artists have different attitudes about whether their art is seen. Right? And that's the test. Right now. There's a very limited amount of attention that audiences can give, and with a flooded market, you are having to compete against a lot more shows and a lot more products out there. I don't think that should stop you from wanting to make something, but you should be rigorous with yourself about what it is that you're making and how you're going to break through. Like, what makes what you're putting out there unique. How will people find value or meaning from it, and can you consistently deliver it? So one of the big tests of podcasts is kind of like, I make the comparison to blogging earlier in podcasting 1.0. Now I guess we're in podcasting 3.0 or something, which is like the big commercial podcast universe, the iHeartradios of the world. And I think of it like those abandoned blogs. Like, a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, cool, I'll start a Tumblr or whatever. I'll start a blog. And they did, like, four posts and then never got back to it. Don't make your podcast like that. I think if you're gonna start a podcast, be really deliberate about it. I mean, you're really good because you consistently put out Episodes of Rise of the Young, right? And so you have, you built an audience, but then your audience has expectations of you and then they'll stick with it. Right? But if you're gonna be like, I want to talk about this show that I really like, like, I'm watching Westworld again. Let's talk about Westworld. This happens a lot. Like, there's a lot of like fan TV show podcasts. They'll do it. And then people get into it because they're like, okay, I'm going to listen to the Westworld, you know, after show podcast now. And then it's like they drop off the next season and, and that happens so often. And I would just say, like, be committed to it if you're going to do it because you were creating a relationship with the audience. And I think that we owe something to one another. It's kind of like a social contract, you know, that we make with one another. And be really explicit. If you're just going to be one season and kind of one and done, you're going to tell one simple story and you can kind of contain it and plan it out at the very beginning. You can signpost and you can say, this is going to be an eight episode season where we're going to look into, you know, whatever it is, some sort of mystery and then everybody knows what to expect. I think what is unfortunate about the world of many, many podcasts is when people kind of just drop off or they're inconsistent with their audience.

Got it. That makes sense. I'm curious just because obviously this is an interview show. I bring on a lot of, you know, entrepreneurs and journalists and people that I find fascinating with their stories. And I know, for example, Joe Rogan, broadcaster, does all these interviews. There's an entire different world of just original content with these massive organizations. What do you think the differences or how do you see the industry evolving when it comes to interview shows in the podcast world and then original content, like you said, with the true crime and everything happening there, what does that look like in the future?

You think we are going to way more original content and people are less interested in funding and bankrolling interview shows because the interview shows that are out there are so well established now. Like, I don't think that you can really compete in the politics sphere anymore against the Pod Save Americas, you know, because they're huge. And then they already have this million download per episode audience. And a couple years ago there was a real rush to do the daily news podcasts, right? Because New York Times the Daily is the number one podcast in the America, maybe the world. And so all the news organizations were like, we're gonna do our daily news podcast. And to this day there are more news organizations that are like, we still need to launch another daily news podcast. But it's like, how many daily news podcasts can one person listen to, you know? And do we really have loyalty to that many news organizations? So I think we're going away from the daily news podcast too. But there is a rush, I know at my news organization at npr, there's a big rush to try and establish habits like where not only if you don't listen daily, you listen three times a week.

Yeah.

So to come out with shows that are more often, but maybe shorter. So that's kind of a big rush. And then on the creative side, they do not feel like they have squeezed out enough from the storytelling, narrative driven shows. So there are podcast makers that are like combing through small towns trying to find some random mystery or some random true crime murder, you know, to exploit into money. And so that is still happening. But yeah, I think that's kind of like the sense, my sense of the landscape right now. There is so much more room, I think, for more voices in podcasting. Like podcasting especially the interview shows were really dominated by white bro y guys. Right. The Joe Rogans and Tim Ferriss of the world. But I would love to see more Roxane Gay and just more people of color, more queer people, more women represented. And I think with Reasonable Volume, which is my media company, we are trying to help support making those and help do the production of podcasts from more diverse voices. So we're really excited about that.

Love it. Yeah. I have a couple more questions. I'd love to dive into Reasonable Volume, you know, like you touched on it before, but give us some more insight into what that is and how you plan on helping people launch podcasts. And, you know.

Totally. So Reasonable Volume came about. It was an idea from a girlfriend of mine named Rachel Swaby. We co founded it just a couple months ago. And Rachel is a veteran of Wired magazine and Runner's World. She launched the Human Race, which was Runner's World's first ever podcast, and ran podcasting for them and she hosted that too. And then when she moved to LA a couple years ago, she started working for big production companies, podcast production companies in LA called Neon Hum and Western Sound. And so she's a veteran of podcasting and of commercial media. And then I'm a veteran of public Media and public radio, which has a strong tradition in audio journalism and audio storytelling, of course. So we just, we have teamed up. We're both ladies, we're both moms in our 30s, and we were like, look, if you want something done well, have a busy woman do it. And so I'm unstable again, sorry, my Internet here is a little bit.

Yeah, no worries, go ahead.

I'm gonna wait till it comes back. I'll rewind a little bit. So our big pitch is, if you want something done well, get busy women to do it. And right now we have like four or five clients as we get off and running, and we are making bespoke podcasts. So whatever it is that you want to make and whatever step in development you need help in. So if you need like production help, just laying up the actual podcast, doing the editing of it and mixing of it and sound design of it, we can do that part. Or if you want kind of soup to nuts, you need help developing your idea. You know you want to be out there. You know you want to put your brand out there. You want to start from development all the way to the finished product. And publishing, we can do that as well. And so when we say bespoke, we really mean like, tailored for you and tailored for the client. And right now we are making the second season of Influence, which is the podcast from Wetransfer. So, like some of the file transferring company. So some of these companies, like, wanted to do podcasting as a storytelling experiment, but also as a brand play, right? To like, really put their brands out there and in a different way. And so that's how we're helping support folks. So if you guys want to team up, if you have listeners that want to team up or need some advice, can always reach out to me. Again, the site's reasonablevolume.com and we'll do show notes.

So, yeah, I'll link it all down below. But two more quick questions. One is, for someone that may have a podcast right now that they haven't tapped into their audience, they don't know how to promote it to build that organic listenership. What's your advice for people looking to grow their show? Because like you said, there's a lot of these high level podcasts that are with networks and it's very competitive at the higher levels. What's your advice to someone looking to break through?

I think one way that I discover podcasts is also the way to break through, which is have an episode that really stands out, right? Like have an episode that is really specific. Specific to something that people might be looking for in a particular moment, like something they're searching for. Or it's really specific to, like, a guest that they're really interested in. Right. So, like, somebody might have found you because you did an episode on biohacking and they're really into biohacking or something. Right. And so there's a company that puts out, like, romance podcasts, and so they might have an episode just about, like, being with a partner, being with your spouse or whatever in the time of coronavirus. And everybody's, like, fighting with whoever their roommate slash lovers are right now. And so they might find them that way. And so a good opportunity to have your podcast reach an audience that you might not otherwise know about is to do content that where they find you through the content. Right. I always say it's, like, less about the brand and it's more about the product. Like, worry about the product and not the brand, which is the content of the book or the movie or the podcast. In this case, whatever. That. That has to be a readable book and a watchable movie and a listenable podcast first. And then you can worry about the marketing, because all the great marketing in the world is not going to make up for a shoddy product.

Yeah. What's the importance of just where your podcast is? For example, like with Spotify and itunes and Castbox and all these different places to listen. Where do you see most people listening? And where should people spend their time if they're. If they have a show?

You're gonna know this better than me.

I want to get your opinion on.

This because you're in it. Like, you're in it. Like, you've been putting this out without, like, independently, like, without the support of a major news organization or a major media company. With major media companies, we immediately go for the itunes. Right. We immediately want to launch big on itunes and be in the top couple of podcasts when we launch because there's still a bulk of the more established or older audience, I guess that's on itunes. And then a lot of people look at ratings based on itunes rankings, but it's going away from that. I think Spotify is becoming way huger for my generation and younger, like my generation and yours. The Spotify audience is so much more diverse, too. I talked about, like, the white bro y audience, the Ben Shapiro audience that is much less prevalent in a Spotify audience. And then, like, I don't. I don't listen on Overcast or some of the other places. But I know a ton of folks do like a ton of geeky folks do geeky. I don't mean geeky like they're nerds, but I just mean they're more specialized in their interests and how they find podcasts. And so I would just say, I don't know if this is your advice, Casey. I totally want to hear from you on what your approach is, but I think if you can be everywhere, be everywhere because you never know where people are going to find you.

Absolutely. No, I agree with you on that. I've always done a lot of pushing in the itunes world, ratings, reviews, you know, all that sort of stuff. But I recently I just switched my podcast to anchor because I was. I really want to get closer to the Spotify team and I've been talking to their teams a lot just internally and, and I think it's fascinating to how Spotify is doing distribution now. They have the playlist and all these different things happening. Last thing that I'd love to hear from you because this is more so a personal question as well. For example, someone like myself who has an independent show that's putting out all their content distribution marketing, what is the transition from someone like me to then let's say host a show like TED Talks Daily with a big network if they still wanted to maintain control and not work for an organization, Is there opportunities like that for people that have their own shows that that are looking to get backing from major news and big organizations that could distribute it or what does that look like? And what's your advice?

Absolutely. There's so much more flexibility in how these deals are cut now. So previously you basically were an indentured servant if you worked for CBS News or something. Right. Like your whole, you just sign your employment to them, you can't work for anybody else. There's all these non competes, you can't make anything on your own that isn't owned by them. And but because of the rise of so many independent publishers and podcasters like you and thank you for being there because it has really changed the power dynamic to which the big I hearts of the world or the NPRs of the world have to write more creative contracts, they have to be more flexible to the talent and the owners of this talent or the owners of the content to say, you know what, we can't claim ownership of all of this and we can't claim ownership of you. And so, you know, this is part of the reason why I have a podcasting agent who helps kind of work out these deals but also it's just about how much you can retain the right to your masters, as they say, like with musicians. Poor Taylor Swift, right? She lost all her masters, but she was so young when she signed that away. Right. But that's a really good cautionary tale and a reminder that your creative work, especially if it's close to you and it's put out by you, and it was really put out by you without the help of others, no matter how good a deal, you have to really weigh how much that means to you and that ownership and how much owning it means to you against whatever money is being thrown your way or promised at you. It's really about first principles.

Very cool. Just. Just to really wrap it up, because I think I'm just so fascinated by your experience in the, you know, broadcasting world. If you were to wrap up your experience with the last decade of being in this industry, what advice would you give to someone that was, like yourself, third grade, or let's say they're in high school or in college, that maybe this is their first ounce of broadcasting? What's your first piece of advice on what they should do if this is a career they'd like to pursue?

I think it's what we talked about earlier and what you do really well, which is to reach out and be unafraid, to reach out to people who have come before you, who can really mentor you or that you can learn from, because I know, I guess I'm pretty busy. I don't really consider myself a busy person. I have lots of different things going on, but I'm always happy to respond to, especially to young people who write me very specific messages or approach me with very specific requests. And I know I'm not the only one. And some of the most important relationships of my life are with my mentors, with people that I really wanted to be like or to learn from. And they today remain some of my closest friends and also life coaches and armchair therapists. Right. So that's so important, is to seek out whatever it is that you want to do, find the people that you admire that are already doing it. And if it's something that's new, that hasn't been invented before, my advice is to embrace messiness. Like, you don't want to be perfect. You know, like, messiness is actually fertile ground for creativity. So I really encourage my kids, for example, to try and make mistakes or that we celebrate mistakes, not like we don't really punish ourselves for making mistakes because mistakes are such an opportunity to learn and grow and so the other thing that I would say besides mentorship is messiness. Like to really celebrate a little bit of messiness because it shows that life is being lived.

Love that. Well, just to wrap it up, you have so much going on. TED talks daily and everything you're doing with the your company. Where is the best place for people to stay in touch and connect with you on social media, with everything you have going on on social.

I hang out the most on Twitter and on Instagram. So you DM'd me on Insta? I believe so, yeah. You can just. You can totally DM me or just comment or follow me on Instagram. Elisewho W H o and it's E L I S E W H o. I have the same handle on Twitter. I hang out on Twitter all the time now that I'm locked in and I'm just doom surfing the news all the time. And you can reach me directly by email if you go to my website. Elisewhugh.com Got it.

And for everyone that's listening, I'll make you link that down below so that you can check that out. And that being said, Elise, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you, Casey. I enjoyed it.

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