John Hecker: Founder of Merch Bar on Building a Marketplace for Music Merchandise

All right, welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today I am joined by John Hecker, the founder and CEO of Merch Bar. John, thank you so much for coming the show.

Thank you.

Of course, man. So you are. You're calling in from New York City, so thank you once again for taking the time. I've been looking forward to this interview, man. I know we were just chopping it up a little bit before we dive in here, but you guys, I always like talking about current events. You guys have had quite the day today, kicking off a. A great fundraiser, which we'll talk about here in a moment. But before we dive in, I would love to give the audience a quick high level of what it is you and the team have built at Merch Bar and just give us like a quick high level before we really dive into your story and everything that you guys are building.

Yeah, well, Merch Bar is sort of the marketplace for officially licensed merch in the music business, but some entertainment aside from that, but mostly all music. I guess people compare us to the fanatics, albeit they are much, much bigger than us. Of, for, for music. We've. We have 340,000 artists now on the platform. We're Spotify's. We're Spotify Instagram and YouTube's. Merch partner or preferred merch partner. And, and it's. It's been fun. I got into, you know, my co founder at Merch Bar is on the tech side and my. Hold on, that shouldn't be happening. Sorry.

You're good.

I'm in a room I don't normally use. My co founder's on the tech side. I come from the music business and when I was in the music business proper, I had signed Avril Lavigne, which was the biggest thing I had ever signed. And I was like, how do I repeat that? And came up with the idea to launch Merch at Mass retail. Recreated vintage merch at Mass, which is where my merch background came, because I was afraid I would fail in signing new artists. But you can't fail with the Rolling Stones. So it ultimately led to when I met him through a different incarnation. I had spoken to these merch contexts, but nobody had aggregated merch online this way. And so together we built Merch Bar.

That's incredible. And even just the co founder dynamic, coming from different worlds, I want to ask what led you to being in the music business? What led you to that path in life? And was that something that you wanted to do growing up?

Yeah, I know exactly the answer. Doing all Sorts of entrepreneurial things. Nothing in the music business, more in, like, restaurants, real estate, things of that nature. And then my mom got sick, and this typical story passed away. And I was like, you know, life's too short. I always wanted to be in the music world, and I didn't know anybody, and I had no qualifications. I wasn't even qualified to be an assistant. So what do you do? You start your own label. And it's because I literally. I couldn't have gotten a job cleaning up the office, let alone working. And I just opened an office, put a phone on the desk at that time. This was a long time ago. This is in the mid-90s. And it did not ring. And then, lo and behold, this girl who wanted to work for me called me and said, you know this band that I'm friends with, they're from England, but they live in New York. They're playing tonight at this place called Nel's, which is not a place known for bands. And to give you the timing, I was like, okay, sure, I'll go. And then it was like I was lying on my bed watching. I remember this Melrose Place. And I was like, I'm not gone. I'm too tired. And then I was like, somebody told me to go. And I went. It was this band called spaceob and ended up becoming a platinum act. I had to compete with Sony to get them. Wasn't able to, just as this label that had no track record. So I. My mentor I met at that time was a guy named Seymour Stein, who's a really famous. You know, he's founded Sire Records, so Madonna. I mean, Endless. And I. I had met him a couple of times. I called him. I was like, this is bad. I want to play. He's like, okay. And I set up a showcase. Next thing I knew, I had a joint venture with him. We signed the act, and I was like, oh, that's easy. I'll just keep doing that. I ended up also doing a publishing deal, which I really was interested in as well, because financially, it's like the right business being in the music.

Yeah.

And. And it's like, I'll just keep doing that. It doesn't quite work like that, you know, Like, I'll just make, you know, and. Failure, failure, failure. Then another hit that. Failure. You know, and it. And it. And then there was Avril. And then I was like, okay, I can't do this again. And that is for the merch.

Yeah, yeah. So I want to talk. I want to dive into that Avril Lavigne. What happened there? What were like, I want to dive into that story of you signing her. What was, you know, the, what did you notice in her early on and like, bring us back to that moment in time.

I wish I could take credit for that. I mean, so, so I had no idea. So what happened was, I mean, if you want the long story, which is interesting, Clive Davis had just been let go from Arista Records, which everybody was like, oh my God. And LA Reid came in through somebody that I was working with. LA Reid all of a sudden ended up on my phone. I thought it was actually a prank call. LA Reid on line four. It was through, actually the guy who signed Whitney Houston for Clive.

Wow.

And, and he was like, you know, Louisiana, you know, want to talk to somebody just about the rock side of the business, you know, once to meet you. I was supposed to meet him for 15 minutes, 20 minutes. Just a little tutorial, get to know each other. And the meeting ended up being like four hours. And he offered me a jv and it was months before he was starting at Aristot. And he was like, just keep your eyes and ears up. And we became really like social friends. We were really close. And an A R guy who worked for Clive, guy named Ken Krongaard, super talented A and R guy called me, knowing that I had this jv and he's like, there's this kid and she's coming to New York. I've never heard a note of music. Her manager says he knows you. This is her first manager, guy named Cliff Fabry. I didn't have any idea who he was. I didn't care because I. You never know where a hit or anything's going to come from. And he's like, he wants to meet you because he knows you're going to have the jv. I don't know what's going to happen to me and the transition and, and would you meet him and this girl and she's gonna be with her parents. I'm like, sure. So I go and I, I, I meet her and her. And she's this little, she's 15.

Oh my goodness.

Kid with her parents. She had won a contest how Cliff got her. She had sent in like a tape to sit. And the winner got to sing with Shania Twain on stage. He won and like, apparently, and I wasn't there, blew Shania off the stage. Avril was singing non people know out down. She's an incredible singer. So we didn't hear a note of music. I met her parents, and they were like, we'll keep you up to date. And then, like, literally, like six months later, I get a call, she's ready to, like, showcase. Can you come down and see her at this producer guy. I'll give you the name again, Peter Zizzo. She was working with her and we saw. So I was like, yeah. And so we. I went down and she started singing. It was incredible. So I called la. He came down the next night. He was in a horrible mood too. When he came down, it was raining. It was terrible. He didn't want to come and same as me, but he did. And like, 10 seconds in, he's like, she's incredible. We got to take this off today. And we did. And we actually signed Avril as a sort of, like, what Taylor Swift was really. She was really supposed to be like, country pop, because that's what she knew. She came from Napoleon, Ontario. She had never heard of Madonna. She was very, like, Christian music, country music. She had heard of the Beatles, but never John Lennon. And then she moved to New York with her brother and started listening to, like, Ramon's records, all of these records that people were giving her, and came to us. Ken had since left Arista, who was going to be her boy person inside, got reassigned. This is how lucky I am on this. To a guy named Josh Sarvin, an A and R guy who, you know, was like, I don't know, you know, just came into this. And Avril at that point was like, I don't want to. We had spent a fortune already recording and we had hits. And she was like, I don't want any of this stuff. I won't sing it. I don't like it. I don't want it who I am anymore. She was, like, going out, like, trying everything from sushi to, like, clubs to, you know, wow in life, like. And she became Avril on her own. And so that A and R person, Josh Armand's, like, what do we do? Do, like, drop her. Drop her. Crazy. We've already spent and, like, you know, let's hook her up with a writer, producer. She'll get it out of her system. This is how dumb I am. So get it out of her system and, like, then we'll just get on with the business that we're trying to do.

Yeah.

And we're not telling LA any of this. Right. You know, we've spent, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars at this point. And so Josh, to his credit, is a great A and R guy. He hooked her up with the Matrix in la. And to Avril's credit, she had a lot to do with these songs. She had never even. I didn't know she had know how to write her name, let alone songs, but she did. And I forgot that she was out there. This is how disconnected. And Josh is making this record and we're not thinking. I'm not thinking anything's gonna come from his. Oh, she's gonna get it out of her system. Six weeks later, I get a package from Arista and I get him all the time. And I didn't listen to it. And Josh called me. He's like, you listen to that thing I sent you? I'm like, no, I'll listen to it later. He's like, no, I listen to it now. What is it? He goes, staffel stuff from la. I'm like, oh, is it any good? He's like, no, you listen to it. It was every hit there was. Dut was complicated Skater boy. And I was on with my wife.

Wow.

Then girlfriend. And I was like, I gotta go. And I called him. I was like, what? What happened here? He's like, I don't know.

That's insane.

It was just hit after hit after hit after hit. And she did it. I was on with him and the whole album, of course, like, in front of us. So that's how lucky. I'd love to be able to take credit. I almost messed it up, if you want to be right. Josh was, you know, and Ken, I give them both credit. Ken brought her to me and Josh made that record.

Wow.

I had influence on like things and was consulted every step of the way, including her video, which, you know, again, credit to Sam Lekka, who was the head of video at Arista Records. Avril did not want to wear that tie. She cried. And Sam was like, this is going to change your life.

Wow.

And everything went right.

Yeah. And that's so cool to hear, even. I know you mentioned before we started the pod here, you mentioned, like Dre London and Post Malone's man manager. And just like the stories, like, I'm personally not in the music business, but hearing like, how the dots connect in talent and discovering it and nurturing it and just how one thing leads the next. I have such a love and admiration for just the music business of these stories like this, right? Where you. Someone, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. It's, you know, it's. I guess if you correlate it to tech, right? It's like you find this mvp, you find this product that could be working, but then one day when it works, you're like, oh, wow. Like we're really onto something here that's so incredible. So I guess talk. Talk to me about, you know, being in the music business, but then wanting to go, you know, build a technology company within the music business. Did you see what problem were you looking to solve in those early days and what led to that overall?

Yeah, I'll tell you how. How it happened for me. Again, these are all right place, right. Luck stories. I know Dre London was like, you know, it's when preparation meets opportunity. But for me, it's absolutely. And, And. And so what. What happened? I raised a lot of money pre 2008 to what people are doing now to buy Evergreen Music Publishing copyrights, the Robert Johnson catalog, a bunch of real standards and class things you just can't fail with. That became my mandate after Apple. Do things you cannot fail with. And music publishing is something you really. It's hard to mess up, especially when it's based on hits, you know, legendary songs. So I got into that and then somebody came to me and was like, you know, a really good friend of mine came to me and was like, you know, we'd like your group, which is a financial group that I was. That we were buying to get involved with an infringing streaming company called project playlist or playlist.com. you remember that?

Playlist.com. i don't.

I don't think that was the biggest, most fastest growing company on the web, but they were completely illegal and it was funded by the now. Largely funded by the now head of. But to make it legal, he was.

Yeah.

The now head of Iheart. Bob.

Okay. Yeah. I actually, I saw him speak at this event that I went to probably a year ago, year and a half ago.

Right. Bob was fun. The pilot group, his company was the. The real funding source behind this. They wanted us to come in and alongside them and John Sykes, who is the. He's way up at iHeart. I don't think he's the CEO, but he's way, way up. Was at one point the CEO of Playlist as well and was involved. And they wanted us to basically come in financially and also clean it up with the music business, make all the deals with the labels and that ironically, the plan was we had from our group is we would. We had to do that before Spotify entered the US Market. Yeah, well, the label says, this is how I met my co founder. How. You know, the label said you have to differentiate from Spotify, whether they're here or not, everything or we're not going to forgive the pass ins. We're not going to, we're going to make a financial deal to forgive the pass and launch and sort of try to be the Spotify in the, in the US or globally, but start here versus in Sweden and, and there were tens of millions of people because it was free. It was a complete infringer already. It was huge. We ended up getting it done but not in time for Spotify to enter the US market and we didn't continue. But how I met my co founder was having to differentiate. Sony in particular was like if you don't, you know, you need to differentiate. We found this company, Swift FM Online that he had founded was sort of like, I mean we call it like Twitter for music was different. It was really cool. And every, all the labels like were like this is great if you. But it wasn't in time. So now we're not going to go forward with this. I've really got nothing going on. My co founder is much younger than me, was like, you know, we should do something together. I've got some technology so you know that we, we should start something. And he was like, let's talk about merch. And we were going to do some things like geo mapping from the stage where you could get sneakers or something like that. And then he said to me, and to his credit again, he was like, I think we should try and get everything online. And even to this day the merch companies are mainly focused on tour still. They really aren't. And I was like, you're crazy. Nobody's going to say yes to that. And I know these guys and I made them a lot of money. They'd never been to mass retail. We had made a lot of money for them, but I hadn't spoken to them. What happened with that mass past? Mass retail is the company that we ended up doing that deal with wanted me to continue. They were all two year programs in Mass at that time. They wanted me to continue T shirts with beer brands which I'm not a Pabst Blue Ribbon. And so I hadn't spoken to them in a while, the merchandisers and I called the biggest one when Ed had this, let's get it all, which was a guy who's now the head of Merch Traffic, which is Live Nation Merch, but then was the head of Bravado, which is Universal, which is the biggest still. And I called Tom and I was like, can we meet? And he was like, yeah, wow, sure. And this is like the best meeting you can ever have. So I was really nervous because I was like, I'm gonna ask this guy for everything. I get to Universal sign in, we get on the elevator. I'm with Ed, and there's nobody and the music. So I get off the elevator. Not seeing Tom in three years, four years. I ran into him on a line at a cheese shop on New Year's Eve. The last time I hadn't seen him except for, like, weird things, right? And I get off the elevator and this is like the best thing ever. He's like, whatever you're gonna pitch me, the answer is yes.

Quite, quite the way to go about it.

I asked them if we could have everything. They were the biggest. And he said, and he was like, let's hammer out the deal. We're not doing anything like this online. And he gave us even an exclusive for a year.

Wow.

He was. He's awesome. One of your friend of mine to this day. And for these reasons, and that's incredible. But it took another year to really get to critical mass. And now we have 340,000 artists. I didn't even know there were 340,000, but we have 340,000 artists on the platform.

That is incredible. And when you, you know, you're saying a lot of the, you know, you're taking us back to when this critical transition in music was happening, right? You talk about Spotify coming to the US you talk about just, you know, the. From the digital landscape and how that made such an impact on every business, but especially music in terms of obviously streaming, but also, you know, merchandise and all things on social and the importance of brand and these artists. When. When you think about music now, I'm curious to dive into your viewpoint as someone that's just been in the music space for quite a long time and all things AI and kind of where that plays a role. How you think about it, you know, the conversation you and, you know, people in the space are having with it. Curious to get your perspective on that.

Well, we're getting into business with some AI, but more on the Google Ad side of things, you know, how we can maximize on the music side. It is amazing. I can't offhand tell you what the companies are that you can put in. I like the Beatles. And then a song appears and it.

Is like a Suno AI, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

And it's good. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen. It's scary, but it's exciting. At the same time, I mean, I'm somewhat of a purist. I listen to vinyl, but at the same time, to have a machine write a hit song that is. And sounds. I know that it's like, you know, it's not human and what people say, but it's kind of cool. I don't know. I mean, I'll take.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

One of my other mentors. I've had, like, several mentors, luckily in the music business, the woman named Sylvia Rohn, who's the current head of Epic Record. And Sylvia, what I loved about her, Sylvia would take a hit from anywhere. She was, you know, really, really about it. And she taught me that. She's like, you never. That's the apple thing. You never know where you're going to find it. Talk to everybody. You never know, you know, so. And then my other mentor, I named Seymour Stein, he was. There are three things that are important. Songs, songs and songs. That was his thing. And for him. And he passed away and was older, but Seymour would have loved. I mean, he was an artist purist. He was the head of the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. But at the same time, I think, you know, if it's a great song, it doesn't matter. I don't think it would matter to him where it came from. I don't think he'd want artists to be hurt, per se. Or writers, I should say. But, you know, so look, I'm conflicted like everybody else. And if it helps us with, like, Merch Bar Merch a Go Go on that side, I'm all in. And if it helps me, like, you know, if there's something really cool musically, you know.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm always going to.

That's so great to hear. And just for context, I know, for the people listening. So you Merch Bar and Merch A Go Go. Can you describe the difference there? Just if people are missing that.

Yeah. Merch Bar is really, like I said, it's for new goods. It's really, you know, it's all on partnerships with all the merch companies, record labels, globally. It's their current supply, which, like I said at the beginning of this, are really, you know, a lot of the larger ones. And I don't want to piss them off, but they're not that great at that because they really do focus still on tour. And so you'll go, and we have two and a half million skus on Merch Bar and. And you'll go, I mean, even to the biggest artist and they'll be, you know, an extra small and a double XL and it'll. Yeah, the extra small will be in white and the double XL will be gray. It's like, it's like there are such holes and we had such a supply problem. I went to my co founder a while ago and seeing what was happening in the thread UPS of the world and other companies that are dealing even the real real and saying we should start a secondary marketplace. We can fill all that. We'll never have a supply problem both on the vinyl side and on the merch side. And it's fan engagement. It's. It's our community that will be posting most of the goods and that is somewhat the case and we're just starting and we're going to reach out and the fans will be posting and that's why I wanted to raise money through the crowd because of the type of business it is. But what I am also finding is that there are suppliers have so much stock and it's cool, you know, whether it was like a vinyl record where the corner of the sleeve is bent, but everything else is perfect and you can really discount it and they'll put it up to overstock from tour which now becomes exclusive stuff because it's not available anymore. It's just sitting in basements. And so when I've got our suppliers, you know, sort of finding out we're doing this are like, we will. We. Yeah, let's move this stuff. Let's. You know, I don't. And I'm not going to do it where, you know, it ruins the brand of the artist. You're not going to discount it to the point of like.

Yeah, no, of course.

But yeah, so that's. So it's going to be a combination. But yeah, it's. It really ends the. It's a secondary marketplace and it's. Yeah, but I think it's. I mean I'm oddly, maybe because it's new, more excited about it. Merch.

That is, that's so, that's so cool to hear like all the differentiations. And I want to touch on something that I know we. I mentioned during the beginning of this that I'm sure people are thinking about. So you guys kicked off a fundraise on a platform that I've been a huge fan of for years. I've known Kendrick, the CEO for quite some time, which is Republic.com. talk to me about this. You know, you guys are a company that have raised capital in the past. I know we mentioned how this was a something New for you in terms of the structure. And obviously I think there's an element of even educating the listener about, you know, what that is, what is Republic. And people may not know, which obviously I can chime in on as well. But yeah, would like talk to us about this campaign, this launch of fundraising.

Yeah, well, what happened was for me, I started getting emails from all of Republic's competitors, but nothing from Republic and I didn't know who Republic was or any of the competitors for them. And I started, I was like, oh my God, this could really be cool for this, for Merch A Go go to do it this way. And I went to, you know, our teams and they were like, oh my God, yeah, we should, we should try this. This would be really, really interesting. And I did what I do. I went and made my way to one of the bigger crowd, not Republic. I'm not going to name who they are. I'll tell you why. And I went straight to the CEO through contact and you mentioned, you know, Ken and my co founder was him. And that's how I got to Republic. But we'll get to that in a second. And I met the CEO and I had a meeting with a Zoom, you know, and am I allowed to like use a little bit of.

For sure.

Total asshole. And I just didn't like him. He wanted the business and just again, I won't name who they are. And so I was really discouraged. And then I started getting more emails from. From other crowdfunding companies. And then my co founder was like, I'm good friends with the founder of Republic. I didn't know them. I looked at him and I was like, okay, I'll take a meeting. Can you make an intro? Made an intro. Not to him. Well, to him. But then he set us up with his team and it was. And they were the third actually company I spoke to and it was just light years different. And I mean, I'm not kidding when I say I fell in love with each and every one of them. There is one person that they have that I don't think is like super smart. And they've put this entire campaign together the deal page with our input obviously. But we, we engage them to do everything not knowing the space and defer to them. And they are. And I speak from a little bit of experience in that I've had conversations and pretty in depth and they, by the way, they continue to bombard me the other companies for Birch Bar on the Crowd Fund. I'm not. I wouldn't do anything without Republic and, and we might do something for Merch Bar, depending on how this goes. And I think it's going to go well. But they were, it was just. The difference was huge. And every single person. And I don't know why that is and I don't care.

Yeah.

But that's my experience and I have nothing but good things to say about them. And even if it doesn't go well, and I think it will, there's still, if you're looking for crowd there.

Yeah, I put that. Totally. No, I mean, republic.com equity crowdfunding. Kendrick was actually. He was an angel investor my last company. And just like being. And hearing what they've done over the years and the different markets they're in and the launches they've had, it's been so cool to just follow along in terms of how it's matured. One of my actual investors in my current company, listener.com, he was one of the first, I think, 10 campaigns on the platform. I think back in, like, 2016 or something like that, it was like this Greek eyewear brand, shout out to my guy, Aristotle. So I got hip to Republic and just again, seeing how they've grown and the ability for founders to raise money in such a unique way, get the community involved, it's really cool to see. And I've known of so many companies that have had success on there, and it's a much different effect than just traditional fundraising in terms of, you know, you get customers involved, you get fans involved, you get the people that, you know, really want to support and be a part of it involved. And it's something that they're, you know, having skin in the game is only more beneficial in terms of the. Just the effect that that has.

Yeah, I agree with everything you just said, and that's why we did it. We decided to go this route. It's it for us. I mean, for me, it's fascinating. It's cool, it's new. I mean, I know it's not new, actually, but it's, for me, it's really fresh. And I, yeah, I, I, I. For what we're doing, I thought it was just a perfect first step. Not saying we won't go raise more traditionally, of course, but I wanted, you know, the customers who might have experienced supply problems to, to have a, you know, a piece of something or fixing the problem. Not just by like, putting up their, like, you know, Yankee shirt or their, you know, because it's not just going to be music put up, like a Budweiser. Shirt if you want a merch. A go go or.

Yeah.

You know, or, or a music or anything that's merch related. But I thought it was best for them to be involved on both ownership side of things and profit that way because I think it's going to be huge. And, and as well as having a place that's really focused on where nobody else is focused on the secondary side, which is, except for maybe ebay, a bit on. That's it.

Totally. And for people that don't know, obviously we're talking about equity, crowdfunding and all that stuff. But you guys, as of today, of this recording, you guys went live today, is that correct?

We went live. We didn't. We were going to do it this morning. We were having some. Not issues, but things that we wanted to tweak. So we didn't really go live to like slightly before this.

So. Great.

Hours ago. Yeah, I mean sending out a lot of emails. So it takes time. I mean, for sure, the initial day is not. Probably not even halfway done as we speak.

Yeah, no, totally. And then I know because I know Republic as. Is there a certain amount that you want to reference in terms of like what you guys are looking to raise? I know that's probably on the deal page, but just for the reference to the conversation.

Well, I want to ultimately raise $5 million, but in this first, you know, there's, it's, it's like one and a quarter and there, there are reasons that, that, that it goes in, in, in ways like that. So. But ultimately. And I'd like to do it through the crowd. I'd like to ultimately raise $5 million through.

Got it.

Yeah.

I don't know. That's, that's awesome. Well, I, I. And for people that are listening, obviously just to reference it right here in the midst of the pod, I'll be sure to link it down below so you can check out the deal page and all that fun stuff.

Yeah, this is a better deal by the way. We've discounted things and if you get in now, I think it's a good deal for sure.

No, I'm very excited to check it out myself now that it went live right before this. Excuse me. Right before this podcast. When it comes to. How do you view. When it comes to all things music and music business, music fans, I think a huge focus that I've seen especially coming from the lens of. I've been in the podcast space for six, seven years. I've had a handful of different musicians on and we've Talked about the tech a big thing for creators which also means musicians fan engagement, whether that's merchandise, whether that's private communities to hear songs before they release. One of my buddies, his name is Mike Stud, he goes by Mike now musician and he has built such a great business and community and has partnered with great platforms to have this fan engaged community outside of traditional social to have that own community. How do you think about current efforts for musicians and the opportunities in the space? Obviously from the standpoint of merch, but just from a technological standpoint. What are some of the trends that you see going into 2025 and beyond?

Well, I mean what I, what's really been interesting for me and this isn't just recent, this goes back is when I started you needed what I told you about that first band I signed. I felt I had to have a major label behind me. Okay, you had to, you weren't getting on the quote radio. It's different now obviously. Very, very different business now. A kid can literally do it on their own. I mean I'm saying, you know, there are obviously young artists on all the labels but it's, it's, it's incredible what you can accomplish. No kid should ever be discouraged or an adult for that matter if they don't get picked up by a label right away or.

Yeah.

And for fan because there are so many ways whether YouTube or.

I mean there are TikTok the tick tock Ification of music is crazy sane.

And it came, it came. My, my daughter who's now 15 has been on Ticket since like the beginning and I've just watched this and it's just, I mean it's incredible. And look, even these smaller companies like Triller, you know, or you know, there's so many. They're just options now to get yourself out there if you, if you know and Tick Tock obviously being the behemoth. But it's, I mean as a parent it is, it's incredible to watch.

Yeah.

And I wish even though I was associated with the major labels, I had had these things. We literally. It was the radio and MTV that was it. In a weird way it made it simpler. But you know, if you got on the radio and yeah, there was a.

Process, there was this, it worked and that was the, you know, the game.

Plan that was, was really a simple marketing plan. Get on the radio, get on mtv.

It is pretty, it is crazy. I think about that a lot in terms of not only music, but I think music is a great example of you know, just the. How Things have changed where the opportunity to go viral or have a song blow up is so immense. But the. Also the competition and the ease of putting out songs is just. It's. It created so much opportunity, but also there's so much stuff that just doesn't make it. So it's like this back and forth of like, okay, a lot of the stuff that worked in the past, like, there's still immense value there. But in terms of like, first impressions, how you get some initial notoriety, building a community, like having that first moment. But, you know, so many big artists right now just stem from, hey, this TikTok thing went viral and then they got picked up by the label. And like, it's that spark that is so much access more accessible nowadays.

But the cream does rise to the top, in my opinion. You know, when something is great and it could be just a great song, you know, that goes viral and that's all that that artist has that. That, you know, in terms of like, thickness anyway, it does it. They usually are hits. You can tell. Okay. Of course, if. Look again, go to your other post. Malone's star.

Oh, yeah.

I would have known. Right. You know, I think that that's what I kind of recognize again, that was again, I told you, Seymour with songs on song, Sylvia's take a hit and LA was all about stars. You had to be a star. He finded a hit, which he did okay for artist after artist that he signed. But like, if there. If there's an intangible and Avril had it, you know, certain artists, it really is about the song. But when. When there's a star, it just, you know, rises to the top. And that's what Tik Tok, I think, has done, not just for music, but for across the board, you know.

Yep.

Yeah. I think of like the people my daughter, you know, follows on Tik Tok that are just became these massive stars that are not music, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know.

No, that's. I couldn't agree more. I'm curious, John, when it comes to the way you view not only business, but one thing I always love talking about on the show is just how your, you know, like, daily routines and mindset towards business changes over the years with not only different technologies, but just as you experience personal growth on that front, I'm curious to know some pieces of advice that you'd give your younger self in the business lens, whether music or just business overall, if you think back on your career and your journey.

Yeah, well, I'm an entrepreneur and I Always have been. So I'm sort of singly focused on that. I've never actually had a resume work for anybody. And it goes back to what I said to you at the beginning. I'm really not qualified to work. Serious. I really wasn't. I was not qualified to be hired as an ANR person. I had no track record when I started. I'm not a musician at all. I just like music. And, like, my training was, I listened to the radio, so I think, oh, I know a hit song, or I watched mtv. Oh, okay. I think I can tell who's a star. And I was fortunately in a position where I could start my own thing, and I started it with nothing. I don't want to like, oh, I put it in front of me. I put nothing into it. I just got a phone and an office and was able to do it and got very lucky, as I said. And I think for a young person today, it's the same thing. Don't be afraid. If you want to be an entrepreneur, go for it again. Listen to other guests that you've interviewed, and you just don't give up. You keep pushing. You don't take no for an answer. If you believe in something, and you just keep going until eventually, either somebody helps you if you need it, or you just push through. And I know it sounds cliche, but it really does work. You know, we're talking about Dre London, you know, your guest, and that's kind of like, what he's just.

Yeah, his story is insane.

You heard it and was really impressed with, like, I don't know him, but that would be, you know, be my advice. I mean, just don't. Don't give up, and just push, push, push, push until it comes to fruition. And if it doesn't, the next thing will.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I always say when people. You know, I get asked a lot. You know, what's the biggest thing you've learned from all these great guests? And it always comes down to just four words. Keep going, never quit, and the ability to just persevere through the great times, through the bad times, and just, like, not get too excited when things go well, but not be too upset when things go bad, like, to stay. One of my guests, who unfortunately passed away, Trevor Moad, he was the brain trainer to Russell Wilson, and he has this book, It's Just Getting to Neutral and just how to bring a level of neutrality to your mindset where, again, like, if a play goes well on the field, don't get too excited. Because if it goes bad, you can't let. You can't let that, you know, determine the next play. You gotta move on and keep going. And I think there's so much value in that. And I also, I. I try to. I catch myself in that a lot where, you know, whether that's training for a marathon or something in business, just the ability to not let. Don't be so hard on yourself when things aren't working. But then don't get over the moon, obviously, because that leads to ego and, like, kind of not taking things for granted. So. Yeah, no, very well said in terms of, you know, the lesson there.

Well, ego is the lesson. And I mean, I don't have. I mean, I do know how lucky. And again, I use that because, you know, if I didn't have the help, if Ken Krongaard doesn't call me about Avril Lavigne or Joss Sarubin doesn't send her out, you know, to work with the Matrix and the other writers. And if, you know, these other people hadn't, you know, helped and. And I don't know, they were constantly being like, oh, John, we're gonna, you know. But I reap the benefits of, like, these. So. And. And the reason why, I think, again, Tom Bennett was like, whatever it is, you know, the answer is yes. The pro. The project that we did prior at Mass was massively successful, and that's why he said yes. But, like, I never, you know, he's my friend, you know, it's.

Yeah.

Just have to realize that, like, that one success, the next thing might not be. And certainly there have been times where it hasn't been, for me, successful and just, you know, put it in perspective. I agree with you. And you can certainly celebrate your success and certainly, you know, lament over a failure or something that's not going right. But the key, I think, is. Is really always, you know.

Totally one thing I love talking about when I have great founders on the show, when it comes to looking into 2025 and beyond, what excites you and the team the most regarding what you're building, initiatives that you can talk about and just things on the radar that not only people should be familiar with, but just that truly light you up and excite you as you think about the future of what you're building.

It's what I said to you. The fan engagement. I mean, the customer engagement. What is exciting to me is this really becomes a community versus Merch Bar. Merch Bar is phenomenal. And we have years and Years and years of experience with customers and they're great as customers, but here, this really gets them involved. That is exciting. It's like going to a show, you know, for one of the artists you're working with. You're like, oh my God, these people bought a ticket. Not for me, but for something I'm involved with. I mean, this feels like that to me. This is really cool for me. I mean, I. And I love. It's personal, it's stuff. Remember I sold an album when I was like, really young. I needed some money and I went to like a used record store and I painted all over. It was actually the Rolling Stones Hot Rocks. It was a great record scratch. And. And. And I painted on it and I got a lot of money for it because it was very personal. I painted on the.

Very cool.

And I love the fact that like somebody will put up a shirt and there might. Might be cut a certain way. I'm gonna say we say it's all officially licensed stuff. Whether it's merchigo. Well, merch bar, for sure. I'm not a go go though, to be completely candid. If you put up a piece of merch, if you bought a bootleg shirt somewhere and you want to sell it, I can't stop that, you know. And sometimes. And a lot of the current merchandisers, this is all the same guys who founded Merch. Merch was started in 1974 by Led Zeppelin. They were the first band to do merch. And the guys who ended up with Led Zeppelin's Merch were bootleggers. Led Zeppelin's manager was like, what is this? And yeah, and yeah, I mean, you.

See that too at concerts, right? Like you go into concerts, they got the main merchant there. And then there are people outside trying to sling the.

That stuff is really creative. Sometimes it's really cool. Like the stuff we did at Mass, that was the first time bands like the Rolling Stones actually profited from the bootleg stuff. We were recreating the bootleg stuff at Mass. Yeah, it is official and that's the first time that happened. Now a merchogogo. If somebody posts a shirt and they bought it in the parking lot, I can't stop them from doing. Hoping that it's all officially licensed. But a lot of that stuff is good. But back to the customization. People who cut off collars or they on the shirt. It's just I find that like the personal side of what's going to be sold, whether it's an album that's been painted on or, you know, and it might be an album that's not, you know, just bent in the corner by and it's been touched by a music fan. It's. To me, that's the cool thing.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm very excited for just the, you know, the opportunity for not only people to get involved with Republic. I always find Republic launches or any trout funding campaign especially, and it's. I don't have many in terms of like founders that are just launching campaigns on the show. And I think it's such a good opportunity because hearing directly from founders and understanding a mission and like, what excites you, that's what gets. That's what's gotten me involved to different Republic campaigns when I'm listening to founders on shows or just obviously reading their deal pages. So I love hearing that from you, John, in terms of just what excites you the most, what you guys are thinking about and working on. Last question before we wrap up here. When it comes to, I talk about your advice to your future self. Talk about what you're excited, but I always love the question, just like, what keeps you up at night in terms of whether that's personal growth, whether that's family, whether that's business, that internal drive through the successes, through the failures. If you can point to one thing that is just. I like to circle it with the word purpose. What is that? What comes to mind when you think about that word purpose?

Or are you more what. What keeps me up at night or.

For sure.

Well, the, the purpose I think I've gone through, what keeps me up at night is all those things certainly is first for me. I have two kids and, and my daughter's at boarding school. She on her. I mean, we're really close. She wanted to go away. She wanted to be, you know, an adult. And it keeps me up at night when, when I don't know what she's doing. Right. So that's one thing in business. Honestly, I do worry about, you know, failure. Is it going to work, was my hunch. Right. I mean, that's what being an entrepreneur is. And it does, it does take away from sleep, but it is so worth it when you're right. And it's also really nice to be, you know, your own boss, essentially. And, and, you know, when I say my own boss, I mean, I take consensus, I mean, from everybody, as I told, whether it's the recorded side, the publishing side, the merch side, or now this from the people who surround me and listen to any advice. But what keeps Me up at night is if your hunch is wrong. Like, oh, what if I had this wrong? And that definitely other than family, you know, greats on me, to be honest.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, before we wrap up here, John, I know we talked about it throughout, but where is the best place for people to not only follow you but learn more about all the projects? Merch Bar, Merch at Go. Obviously we'll make sure to include the Republic.com campaign down below, but outside of that, where's the best to stay connected with you and the team and everything you have going on?

Well, contacting us through Merch Bar and Merch a Go Go. I mean I am not a social media guy. There's nothing on my Facebook. Not even a picture for sure. Literally no picture on my LinkedIn and it's kind of dating. I, I really this is the first podcast I've ever done or even considering. I I not that I'm selling demand, but I have been asked.

Yeah, of course.

I, I, I, I I think you know, just directly coming to us, you know, in Merch a Go Go or Merch Barber, you can certainly, if anybody wants to reach out to me directly, you could always go through. I don't even know if I should give my just straight email address.

No, you don't need to do that.

You can find me and if there's anything, you can always come to me directly if it's that important. But certainly through just the sites, Merch Farm or Chicago, we will always get back.

I love that. Well, John, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. Obviously you have a lot of things you guys are working on. You got the campaign going live today. So we really do appreciate your time today and thank you so much.

Other people who are doing the heavy lifting.

Indeed.

Fun. I mean this is fun for me and I'm so impressed with like I said to you when we before we started a really impressed with what you pulled off and I said to you, you look 10 years old to me. I love that you told me, but it's amazing what you've accomplished at such a young age. I'm really impressed.

Thank you so much.