Jordan Harbinger - The Larry King of Podcasting

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They thought, okay, if I work my way up to the top, then country club, I'll have a network. I don't have to worry about networking now. I just have to keep my nose to the grindstone and work hard. And that's just not true. Yeah, the people at the top get there because of their network. And it's funny because when I say that, everyone's like, well, duh, it's all about who you know. And yet when you go to work or when you're working, you're like, oh, I gotta work hard. I gotta create my product. I gotta get my business off the ground. I got to become an influencer or create a prototype or get my website going. Nobody's like, I better network. It's like, wait, wait. You say it's all about who you know when you're talking about that guy. But then when it comes to you, it's all about work, work, work, and your quality of your product. Like, sorry, but that's just bs.

What's going on, everyone? Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of of the Young Podcast. On today's episode, we have Jordan Harbinger here today. And I'm really excited for this because I know, Jordan, you've had a podcast since literally 2006, and I've watched a lot of your interviews with people like Tom Bilyeu, and you've truly not only created such a monumental name in the podcast industry, but your past and your story is so intriguing when it comes to knowing five languages or giving tours in North Korea and all this stuff that we'll get into. But I just wanted to say I definitely appreciate you coming on because I've had my podcast for years and you've definitely have been someone that I've looked to for Advice. And that being said, man, definitely appreciate you coming on the show, Jordan.

Yeah, I appreciate you having me, man.

All right. So, Jordan, really, to get into it, man, you've had a podcast for years, since 2006, and you've really been a pioneer of this industry. And I always tell people that are listening to my show, the main audience is 18 to 25. People are looking to start podcasts and build a brand. And having a podcast for me has been monumental and networking and connecting with powerful people. So just really bring me back, because in 2006, just to give you some reference, I was 6 years old, and I'm 19 now, and you truly have dominated this space. So that being said, just what gave you the opportunity to jump into this podcasting space, and then we'll get more into your past.

Sure. So back then, I was teaching networking and relationship development techniques because I was a lawyer on Wall street, and a lot of the other lawyers were like, look, you. You know, you gotta outwork everyone. You gotta be smart and all this stuff. But I lost my competitive advantage because in school, I was pretty much the smart ish nerd who could, like, show up to a geometry test and teach himself geometry on the test and be done. But, you know, that competitive advantage goes down as you get into college, and everyone's smarter than you or as smart as you. And I went to Michigan. There was, like, a lot of smart kids there.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I lost that advantage. So I just had to outwork everyone. And luckily, my parents and so a good work ethic in me. And while everybody else was out drinking, partying, screwing around, I was just working, studying. So that gave me a huge advantage. But then when I got to Wall street, everybody was smart, and everybody was willing to work really, really dog hard. So I was like, I'm screwed. I'm gonna get fired. And a bunch of the lawyers who were senior were like, look, if you can learn how to network and bring in business for the firm, you're gonna have a huge advantage. Those are the type of people that make partner. So I ended up working on those skills. And what was weird about those skills was nobody was paying attention to them because they thought like I previously thought. They thought, okay, if I work my way up to the top, then country club, I'll have a network. I don't have to worry about networking now. I just have to keep my nose to the grindstone and work hard. And that's just not true. Yeah, the people at the top get there because of their network, and it's funny, because when I say that, everyone's like, well, duh, it's all about who you know, you. And yet when you go to work or when you're working, you're like, oh, I gotta work hard. I gotta create my product. I gotta get my business off the ground. I gotta become an influencer or create a prototype or get my website going. Nobody's like, I better network. It's like, wait, wait. You say it's all about who you know when you're talking about that guy, but then when it comes to you, it's all about work, work, work, and your quality of your product. Like, sorry, but that's just B.S. like, clearly you're lying yourself.

Yep.

Because either it's not all about who you know, or it's all about the work, or it's some blend of the two. But are you really blending the two? No. You're probably just working really hard because you don't really know how to network and you don't want to. And I was in that camp. I was like, I don't want to learn this. But the cold truth was that I had to learn it in order to survive. I thought I was going to end up getting fired. And on top of that, other people weren't learning it. So that's the mark of a competitive advantage that was pretty useful. Something that I knew would come in handy later that nobody else thought they needed to work on now and that I knew took a lot of time to hone. So it's like that with podcasting. People go like, oh, I'm going to start a podcast. And like, good luck. I have 10, 20 years of talking. And not me personally, but like, yeah, there are people in radio where, like, I have 20 years of radio experience. Yeah. And so they start a podcast, and their show is much better. And everyone who starts a podcast is like, well, wait a second, why aren't people listening? It's like, well, that guy spent 20 years learning how to present, or 10 years or five years. You just thought you could speak English and therefore deserved a podcast. So you're not an interviewer. You know, you're not just gonna be funny and good because you're funny with your homies, like, playing Xbox. Like, that's not how this works. So I knew that networking was in that same camp, and I started working on, like, body language, nonverbal communication, because I took networking classes at, like, the Dale Carnegie YMCA Learning Annex.

Yep.

And I realized if this dude in a sweater vest who, like, is on the phone outside the classroom during break, talking about how he needs more time to pay his rent that month. If I'm learning networking from that guy, I'm probably not going to get the secret sauce. Yeah, this dude is not. He works at the ymca, right? Like he's teaching a Dale Carnegie class. I'm not trying to say like, oh, this guy's a loser or something like that. These were great people that I learned a lot from. But if you're not getting a million dollar legal contract, if you're not getting a job offer at Goldman Sachs, if you're not networking with the people that you need to get your business off the ground, probably not because you didn't look them in the eye and had a firm handshake or whatever, like bullshit advice you were getting from the guy at the Dale Carnegie class.

Right.

So they basically, they had good advice for people that were new. But then once you got to like level two out of 10, the guys who are teaching networking classes, they were just like, keep practicing, I guess. And so I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I need to learn the real ish. Because if I don't get the real deal, I'm not gonna get. I'm not gonna be successful. I'm not going to look him in the eye and have a firm handshake and then be like, why didn't I make partner? Why didn't I get Goldman Sachs as a client from my firm? I needed to learn the real deal. And the real deal wasn't just. Well, let me put it this way. The advice I got from really well networked people that were well connected was just be cool, man, and hang out a lot and make a lot of friends and connections. And I'm like, that's not advice. It's not actionable. If I could be cool, I wouldn't have gone to law school. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

Can take the advice, be cool and run with me.

Absolutely.

I was like, I need to learn the real stuff. And so the real stuff was how you come across when nobody's paying attention, how you come across when people are paying attention, learning how to network and elicit values from people in the right way, connecting people with one another, maintaining networks over time, learning how to network with important people that theoretically have no reason to talk to you. Like, those are skills that you need to build and they're not look them in the eye and have a firm handshake type of skills. They're really different and they're legit learnable, teachable skills that frankly, most people are unable to Build on their own.

A lot of got it.

They're just going to work at it. Not going to happen. It's like you just learn a lot of bad habits.

Yeah.

Like any other skill.

Absolutely. And being someone like yourself, that's, you know, you've, you've connected and built such a world class network and sat down with people like Kobe Bryant or Reid Hoffman and one of the most important things, and I want to ask you personally, just when it comes to building that network, like looking back, talking to someone like myself who's 19 and this listenership, there are people that are, you know, they want to build a network, they want to get their name out there and just connect with quality people and add value. So like what would you say that 18, 19 year old today that's going out there, going to events, looking to build a network, but they may have not gone to these classes or they haven't been on radio for 20 years and their communication skills aren't the best. Like what would be what one of the first things looking back along your journey that would set people up for quality networking.

Yeah. So what I would say first of all is, and don't worry like, oh, I haven't gone to a class. Like you're not, you don't need to really almost painfully shy, then yeah, go grab a Dale Carnegie class. But I would say most networking classes are not really that helpful. Like you're not going to go there and be like, wow, good thing I learned how to memorize people's names. It's like, dude, watch a YouTube video.

100%.

Okay. But most, you mentioned events. And so one, we'll start there. One of the major problems that, that exists right now are these networking events and these like masterminds. And most of them are total. Am I allowed to say?

Absolutely, yeah, for sure, for sure. Cool.

Most, most of them are. So I'll, we can attack masterminds at a different time. But yep, networking events are a waste of your time generally. And what I mean by networking event is something that's uncurated. And what that means is let's say that you get an invitation from someone, they're like, oh, I'm having a networking mixer at the Learning Annex or the ymca. You drive across town, you show up, a bunch of people are like, hey, here's my card if you need financial advice. Or like, hey, here's my card if you ever need someone to like redo your driveway, it's a waste of time because it's uncurated. So everybody who goes there is just doing lead gen, but they're not even doing specific focused lead gen. They're just like, whoever's in this room is going to get my card and then I, you know, for my multi level marketing bullshit and then they're going to, I'm going to leave. They're all takers. So you need to go to events that are curated. And the, the advice that Tim Ferriss, that him and I kind of came up with this a long time ago, go to the best one that you can afford. If you've got like 20 bucks, don't worry about it. You know, try and create your own maybe because 20 bucks isn't a good ticket to anything. But there are events that are like 5,000, 8,000 bucks that I go to every year and people go, are you crazy? You're paying five grand, eight grand to hang out with your friends. You're a moron. You know these people already know you. That's not what I'm paying for. I'm not buying access to hang out with these people. I'm paying for someone who has such a good event that people will fly from Thailand to spend five days in a room without hammering down their cell phone at an all inclusive resort in Mexico with amazing entertainment, food, speakers and other activities designed to get us closer connected. If you just go to a dinner with these people, great, cool. But good luck getting six of them in the room, it's going to be tough if you fly to see them individually, great. But that's going to cost you a lot more in time and money than $8,000 ticket for a five day event. So it becomes worthwhile because the curation of these events where there's 125 people, you can call that guy who you met that runs a utility company in Thailand, you can call him and say, I'm gonna be in Bangkok, do you.

Want to hang out?

And I'll be like, yeah, I've known you for a long time. Yeah, the last five days. And I've been seeing every year like we're friends now. You know, it's different than, hey, thanks for going to that event with 1100 people that all paid 89 bucks to get in. Yeah, can I come and visit you? It's like, who are you again? I don't remember you at all. So curation is key because not non curated events have non curated by definition attendees and they're usually takers, highly curated events. Usually people go there going, all right, well I'm already a millionaire multimillionaire Whatever. I'm going for other reasons. And then they meet you there and they're like, let me know if I can ever help you with anything. That's how you get in to these higher circles. Not by like joining someone's mastermind with a bunch of other suckers.

I agree.

And now we're learning how to like create a sales page, which you could teach them in five minutes.

Yeah, yeah.

For free. In one of your shows, around one of your, like, courses. That's what. So people are getting played hard right now because they think networking shortcuts are join some sort of exclusive club. Oh, I don't know any clubs. Good thing YTSI face, entrepreneur, influencer, wannabe has a 25k mastermind. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's bullshit. So the most curated stuff is not curated just by how much you pay to get in. It's curated based on who you are and what you have achieved or what value you can bring. And so that's a harder group to get into that you can pay 25k to get into. Some of the events that I go to. You're still not going to get in. Sorry, I rephrase that. You could try to pay 25k to get some of the events you go to. You still won't get in because the guy who's doing it is already making a shitload of money. He's not there to be like, well, this guy offered me a lot of money. It's curated and he's keeping you out because he doesn't like what you have.

Got it.

That's the kind of event I want to be at. It reminds me of this Groucho Marx quote, I think it is. He's like, you don't have to know who that is. But it's.

Yeah, I don't think I do.

I shouldn't even know he is. He like died before either of us were born. I'm pretty sure. Okay, he's this comedian that's really like corny from like the 20s or something.

Got it.

And he goes, I. I don't want to be. I wouldn't join any club club that would have me as a member. Right. Like, in other words, you want to go. He was joking. But what you should be looking at is, am I the biggest fish in this sort of small pond, or am I right in the middle of where everyone else is? Or am I the smallest fish in the whole pond? If you could be the smallest fish in the whole pond, if you could be the fly on the wall, great you know you're among greatness. If you're in the middle of everyone, that's going to be ideal because you're going to feel comfortable. You're going to be able to bring value to everybody and you're going to be able to make connections. But if you are the biggest sort of normal high achiever in that whole pond, you should check your ego because it sounds like you're after adoration, where people are like, wow, look at your business. You're not going to get much from that event. There's nothing wrong with giving back. But don't confuse people telling you how great you are with networking. It's not the same thing.

That makes sense.

My point is go to curated events and curated events only. Something that is not curated is going to be full of takers and probably a waste of your time.

Got it. That's some real stuff. And I can tell that you're saying this from a point of experience. You know, you've. Like I said from the beginning, I think there's a lot of people, and I want to say, like, I've learned so much these just these past two to four years just being on social media and having this podcast, like going to different events and meeting certain people, you know, and like you said, there's a lot of BS out there. And my whole goal with this show is to bring on people like you who have experienced, you have the foresight to tell these young entrepreneurs, just tell them the real stuff. But real quick, I want to sort of change gears. And in terms of something that I've seen is just super interesting about you, right? You know, five languages you used to give tours in North Korea. And I hear all these things from you based on your story in your past. And I'd love to take a moment just to touch on this because I'm sure that has really helped you become who you are. So give us some insight into, like, where you're from, how you really got onto Wall street, what that beginning childhood looked like. So that we can kind of bring people to back to where you are today.

Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up super shy. I was really quiet in school. I had what now people would call, like, social anxiety. But that made me, like, a freaking weirdo. And I remember, like, literally running away from people. Not guys, but, like, the hot girls. They'd be like, hey, Jordan. I'd be like, running. And they'd get entertainment because I was like, like, so painfully shot.

Okay.

But I was also more or less like a nerd in a Kind of cool way. Like, I was hacking websites and doing really cool online, and I was tapping phones and, like, learning how to, like, program. That's so sick. Working. Working with, like, computer companies and, like, the cops and stuff like that, and even the FBI at a certain point. Oh, my Lord. I was still, like, a shy kid. And then I got into high school, and I became an exchange student and went to Germany for a year. And I was super popular because I was the only American, okay, where I was that these kids had ever met. Because I was in the former East Germany, which used to be communist, okay? So people were, like, obsessed with hanging out with me all the time, and it was hard for me to. I don't say that from a place of ego. I say that from a place of, like. I was highly uncomfortable with that, too. Like, I remember one girl who's, like, the hottest girl in the whole school invited me over to her house on a Friday, and my buddy was like, dude, you are so getting laid tonight. I'm jealous. Yeah. Oh, man. Cool. And he's like, she's been talking about how she's gonna, like, destroy you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Freaking didn't go, oh.

Oh, Lord.

So, like, that gives you some insight into how big of, like, a dipshit I was back in high school. And then when I went back, I sort of grew out of that in Germany and really enjoyed my, like, newfound popularity, if you will. But then I got back to the United States and I went to college at Michigan, which is, like, a big school of athletic people and stuff. And I was like, yeah, I'm this cool guy that now finally gets it. And then I was like, oh, crap. Small fish in a huge pond again. This sucks. So I just went back to what I knew best, which was study, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. Then I was like, how do I get a job? I don't know. So I went to law school. I ended up getting into Michigan Law, which is a really good law school, a top 10 school. So I went to Michigan Law. Then I graduated towards the top half of the class, got a job on Wall Street. And then I was like, I'm sick of this shit, man. I shake this garbage of where I don't know how to, like, behave myself and, like, be normal. This is bullshit. Like, it's affecting my life, and I'm eventually going to have, like, real career consequences as a result. And I remember this because there were people there that were like, look, dude, everyone likes you, but you're like, you're an acquired taste because you're quiet, but then also you have, like, the snarky humor, and it could get you in trouble. And I was like, this translation. I gotta translate my personality or I'm gonna be like, limited my career.

Okay.

So I started learning about that, and that was what led me into the networking skills. And then I started teaching these networking skills at law school, and nobody gave a shit because nobody else cared about networking. And I tried to get them to see what I saw based on my Wall street experience that first summer. And no one cared. Nobody cared at all. And then I was going out, like, every night alone to try and work on body language, persuasion, nonverbal communication. And that's when things started to change because I started applying everything that I was learning at bars and things like that, where other people were. And I would get to know the bar owner, the landlord, other adults, like grown up people stuff. The bartender never waited in line. And then women started to notice that, and they were like, oh, why don't we go in with you? You never wait in line. You never pay.

Yeah.

So I started hanging out with all these women, and then I would run around the bar, and people were like, wow, you're, like, fearlessly social. You hang out with all these women. What's your secret? And I was like, oh, body language, nonverbal communication, education. This, that, and the other thing. And that's when people were like, wait a minute. You mean this is a learnable, teachable skill? And I was like, yeah, okay, go. New idea. I'm paying for all your drinks. I'm paying for your food. I just want to hang out with you and your crew of, like, 18 women. Sure. So I started doing that, and then I realized, oh, these guys want to get laid. Like, they don't care about networking.

Yeah.

So I changed the business from networking focus to, well, it's also coincidentally, really good for meeting a lot of women. And then people are like, what you said? So I started teaching little seminars on this with women at bars. And I would just teach guys, and I'd be like, do this, this, this and this. And guys were like, flying in from other states. Oh, my Lord. And like, oh, I heard about this through my roommate's brother's friend's cousin. And then I was like, all right, I'm having the same conversation every single day at a bar. I'm like, drinking way too much. I need to start burning my conversations to CDs. So I went to Guitar center and I got those little recorders. Okay. Burnt the conversations to CD and I started handing out the CDs. So when a new guy would be like, what are you talking about? I want to learn this. I'd be like, listen to these 20 hours of stuff. Yeah, yeah, 20 tracks or whatever stuff. And so then they would come back and go, hey, I left my CD with my roommate and he wants me to get another one. And I'd be like, fine. Then I started charging for the CDs because I kept giving them away. Giving them away? Giving away.

Yep.

Then once I started charging, people were like, oh, I need eight now, because my friend, my other friend, my roommate, my roommate's friend, and this other guy want one too. And I was like, okay, I have a business. So I started charging like 20 bucks. Then I got sick of doing it and I went, I'm just gonna give this all away for free again. Tell people I teach this stuff. But how do I get an MP3 to somebody over the Internet? There was no way to do that in 2006.

Okay, so this is 2006.

Yeah, got it. So then a friend of mine was like, podcasts, brand new. You put MP3 files on a server and people can download them through the website or through itunes. Which was kind of new back then too.

Yeah, I wanted to say, cuz itunes was like, was that podcast app obviously way different compared to now, but like, what was it back then in 2006, just to get some context to it.

2006, iTunes was only music. I don't even think there was a music song store. If there was, I don't remember it. There's no art of any kind. It was all text.

Yep.

So you had to search for things. There was no shard, there was no cover art. There was nothing like that.

Yep.

And there were podcasts, but there were like a thousand, you know, got it. Like 800,000. Like there literally are now. So I put my MP3s up there and I was like, hey, if you want this, you. And I made little vistaprint business cards. And it was like, go to this website. There were itunes instructions, then also how to download this on your. On this one website and play it. Got it on your computer using winamp, which is a program nobody uses anymore.

Okay.

So that's how the show got started. And then after that, people who were listening to those MP3 started sharing it. And then internationally, people started listening and I was like, whoa, this is some real deal shit. Like, people are downloading this in South Africa. So I started saying things like, hey, if you're the person listening and you're not in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Who are you? And then I started getting dozens of emails from people that were not in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

That.

That sort of blew me wide open. And I was like, whoa, I can. I'm reaching this international audience.

Yeah.

So I started telling people I do phone coaching because I didn't want to have to go out. I was like, I can do this during the day and go out at night. So I started doing phone coaching during the day, and I was on with dudes from Denmark and then South Africa and then New York, and then this guy from California who owned a bank.

Wow.

I want to put you on my retainer and I want you to train my sales team. And I was like, cool, Whatever that means. He's like, what's your PayPal? So I told him my PayPal. He sent me five grand.

Got it.

You're on my payroll now. And he goes, by the way, you should be like charging five times what you're charging. So he locked.

Okay.

And I raised my prices times five. And we started charging a ton of money, you know, like a few hundred bucks an hour.

Yeah.

And then on top of that, I started to talk about phone coaching on the show. And then people started buying a ton of it. And then one client goes, I'm not getting it. Like, I need to with phone coaching. Like, I get it, but I don't get it. Get it. I need to see you do it.

Yep.

So he's like, I'll give you five grand if I can come stay with you for a week. And I was like, sure. You know, we've talked a bunch on the phone. You're not a psycho. Come on over. Yeah, he came and stayed with me and he's like, this is mind blowing. So I had him on the show and talked about that, and then I got dozens of emails that were like, wow, come over and stay with me. Yeah, for 5,000. So that's when boot camp started. And I was like, I'm definitely gonna get fired if I do this as a lawyer because I'm not sleeping. So I hired instructors and that was the beginning of what it turned out to be like a dating business. Well before, like the game and all that stuff. Yeah, I was doing this professionally and that's insane. Around that same time. And just. We just went through the roof because we were. The non creepy version.

Yep.

Book, like that book was like, tell you the Ferrari that your wife, your girlfriend's a stripper. And I was like, don't do that shit.

That's Stupid.

Yeah. Tell them you're a broke ass student and that this is, you know, you want to go out and have fun and that, you know, the doorman at this club, like, yeah, better than these weirdo liars. And it turned out to be true. Yep. And then I did that show for 10 years and talk as how to do this for 10 years. And then I eventually started teaching military intelligence agencies, special forces.

Wow.

I got married and I got sick of doing the dating thing because it started to get pathetic and it started to get hella creepy.

Okay.

Because of all the pickup. All the pickup guys started to be like, extra weird and kind of creepy. Like a Not now in. Well, the word rapey says it all. It's a terrible thing to be. And all these guys started actually getting in trouble for stuff. And I was like, I'm out. So I kept my government clients, I kept my military clients, and I kept my corporate clients. And then I was just like, you know what? I like interviewing people like Dennis Rodman and Kobe Bryant and, you know, Reid Hoffman and all these other amazing people. I don't want to talk about dating anymore. So the show just took a hard right turn.

Wow.

And here we are. And turns out that was pretty good timing because I made millions of dollars teaching guys how to meet and attract women in a way that wasn't creepy. And then I got married and I had a kid, and now I interview people for a living and it's like the best thing ever.

That's so insane. And I wanted to ask you too, like, when starting a podcast today, like, going through all the experience in 2006, one of the OGs in the space, like, when you talk to someone about body language and really the networking aspecting, do you recommend people start a podcast in 2019? Or what's your thought process when people are looking to build an audience or start a show? Like, do you say, hey, man, only get into this if you know what you're doing? Or like, what's your. I. I would say step by step instructions to someone that wants to start a podcast. What do you say to that young person?

I would say that you have to be really careful about your motivations as to why, because right now there's a lot of people selling podcast courses trying to teach other people how to be influencers and all this bullshit. And like, honestly, a lot of people are doing podcasts because they think, oh, I need to be on every channel. It's like a website. It's like having a Snapchat. No, it isn't It's a show. And if you're not willing to do a show by doing it right, you're gonna be in trouble. And so my rule of thumb is if you would do it even if no one is listening, then do it. But if you secretly believe this is gonna build influence for you, then don't bother. Because it's like YouTube. You have to put in a ton of work. You can't replace yourself. You have to work on your personality, you have to work on your production. You really have to like it. If you're like, I'm just gonna be a YouTuber and it's like, what are you gonna do videos about? I don't know, I don't care. I just want to be an influencer. You're going to be terrible at it.

Yep.

You're going to be terrified. So same thing with podcasting. Like there are so many shows that I've heard where the person interviewing clearly is not interested in the guest at all. They're just like, oh, I got this well known name. I'm going to like kind of wind them up and let them go. Or like ask them. Yeah, you know your top three tips. It's like you're just lazy for sure. Collecting influence influencers because you think standing next to them is going to make you look better. And that's totally not the case at all.

Absolutely.

A lot of podcasters, like, they'll, they'll have like a TV guy on Not Interesting. They'll have a YouTuber on Not Interesting. They'll have a musician on. And they're like, what are your dreams?

It's like, what the, what are you talking about, brother? Right.

What are your dreams? What are your fears? Like you're sitting there with some legend that you booked under probably false pretenses that you have a popular show.

Yeah.

Inflating it. What are your fears? No one gives a shit. I want to find out why she was able to succeed, why she got through a tough time. I don't want to get fucking inspired. Get some knowledge. Yeah, like give me a grown up conversation here.

100%.

So people who do that, inevitably they don't do that well in the long game because they give up as soon as there's another channel that is easier for them to build influence or their show doesn't do as well because they realize their audience is all like 15 year olds. No offense. If you're 15, when your audience is all kids that don't have any reason to act on what you're doing and they're just, like, looking for temporary motivation. You're screwed. You're building an audience that's very commoditized. You're just going after the same people that Gary Vaynerchuk is, the same people that all these other Instagrammers are doing, except they have more money and they're more interesting than you.

Right?

So you're competing without any competitive advantage at all. So you have to wanna do a show even if nobody listens to it. Because then if you're willing to do a show even when nobody listens, you won't get discouraged in the inevitable event that nobody is listening and that you only have, like, 300 downloads an episode. And on top of that, you're also going to do what you want, which is, by definition, going to be better than trying to do what other people are doing or do what you think your audience wants. So, like, I don't do on the Jordan Harbinger show, I don't do what my audience wants. I talk to people that I'm interested in, whether it's Kobe Bryant, Dennis Rodman, Reid Hoffman, or some random photographer that got kidnapped in Syria. Yeah, those conversations are much more interesting than, like, crap, this guy's popular. I guess I'll do an episode with Logan Paul, even though I don't care about him at all. Yeah, that gets a temporary bump. But then people go, that wasn't really that good because you're clearly not interested in the conversation for sure. You can't really fake it either. So, like, do a show only if you think you would do it, even if no one's listening. Because, to be honest, there's a good chance that for the first few years, no one's going to listen to your shit. And unless you're improving a lot, 100%, it's a waste of your time. It's a waste of your time.

No, that makes so much sense. And one question I did want to make sure I asked today, because I think it would definitely help a lot of people, like in 2019, if people, let's say, have had a show for two years or they just started one, or there's someone that's had a show for five years, like someone like yourself. And I'm going to really respect your answer to this. Like, where do you see podcasts going, moving into 2020 and beyond? Because I know the last two years is me being on social media. I've had my show, it's definitely expanded, right? You see a lot of people starting shows. Tons of people are just starting them and not taking them seriously. But where do you see it going moving forward? You know, I was at this Shopify event in LA and the owner of StockX, he was telling me a lot of their budgets for advertising are going on podcasts and, and all these different platforms and companies are now spending money on podcasts. And I'd love to hear it from your background. Like, where do you see it evolving to? Is it something that you would recommend you should jump on the wave, or is it something that's already peaked? Where is it going? I just really want to get your insight out there because I think it's super valuable and people really appreciate it.

So a little bit of both. There is definitely a upsurge in podcast advertising, but the idea that you can jump on the wave is. Is mistaken. So there's a wave, but it's for the top 1% of podcasts, which you will not be in any short number of years because you're competing against npr, you're competing against me. You're competing. And don't get me wrong, I would love more big podcasts to move in because it increases the market space as a whole and it allows me to cross promote with you and stuff like that. So I'm all about it. Bring, Bring more people into the space, however, more small people in the space. It's. It benefits me, but it doesn't benefit them. So like if you start a show and you get 300 of your friends to listen, you get your social media followers to finally listen to podcasts and then you stop making money podcasting, you've just brought awareness of podcasting to thousands of new people, but you're not benefiting from it. I'm benefiting from it. So I will say, yeah, jump in by all means, but just don't be surprised when your listeners start listening to like me, me, Tom Bilyeu, other people that have been doing it for a while and bring a better show out and then don't be surprised when you don't make money and then your podcast, your, your show fans start listening to other stuff that's good for me, but it's not necessarily going to be good for you. It's not like crypto where you get in early and suddenly you've got bitcoin and you're getting wealthy off that. Yeah, there's no. The first to market advantage was something, but it really wasn't a big deal. There are tons of electricity older shows that are nowhere near as popular as they once were, or they're the same Popularity as they once were because the broadcaster is just not that good. They haven't increased their skill level that much. They haven't grown that much as an interviewer. They really have peaked in terms of their own career. They're not making more money, but people in the top 1%. Yeah, we're making millions. But the idea that you. Let's assume that you are not that person the second you pick up a microphone.

Yeah.

And it takes you from four or five years to get there. I would say you're better off spending those four or five years doing something else that you actually enjoy. If you love doing YouTube and Instagram, doing a podcast is going to be a waste of your time. Just as for me, doing YouTube and Instagram is a waste of my time.

Got it.

I've got a huge audience. I'm going to bring it from YouTube and Instagram into the podcast. Not realistic. Not going to happen. I have a ton of really popular influencers on Instagram and YouTube and they start podcasts and they're like, bro, what am I doing wrong? I only have 17,000 downloads per episode. And I'm like, that's really good. And they're like, no, it's not. I have 1.7 million YouTube subscribers. And I was like, you're lucky to get that 1%. Like, that was pretty good. And they're like, how did you get 250,000 downloads or 6 million downloads a month? And I'm like, you know, I've worked on this medium. I do long form content. You do Good jump on people's table pranks.

Yeah.

That's not a podcast. Yep. You know, like, there's a guy, Logan Paul, who you've probably heard of a bunch totally massive social channels. Massive YouTube. His podcast is like smaller than mine. Why?

Yep.

Because his audience wants to see him jump off ice cream.

Yeah, absolutely.

They don't want to listen to his dumbass talk about something for an hour.

Yep. Different forms of media. Absolutely. I said, yeah, just different forms of media. You know, he's good at that. And absolutely, for sure, nobody wants to.

Watch me do a silly boxing match, for example.

Yeah, yeah.

$10 million to do it. I'm not saying you have to stay in your lane or don't try something new. But what I am saying is it's. You don't have to be everywhere. As a creator, there's a. There's a waste of. There's a time suck in that. Like Instagrammers and YouTubers, they don't necessarily need to also create Podcasts. And some of them will create small shows and they'll make a little side income.

Yep.

But they're never going to really excel in the space. They're just not. And they should. You should focus on your strengths and dominate one or two or three areas because of that. Not trying to be everywhere.

Yeah.

And if you're not willing to do a show that's not making money, then just don't do a show because you're not going to make money for years.

Yeah, absolutely. And really quick, I want to be respectful of time. Just what would you say creates a good interview? What makes, like, how would you describe whatever the podcast you listen to or the people that have been doing it for years? What makes a good interview a good interview?

So a lot of people will say something like curiosity. And that to me, a degree is true. It is about curiosity. But on the same token, I realized that, like, now I'm not a gifted comedian or anything like that. So I don't get somebody on the mic and I'm like, ha, I'm hilarious.

Look at me.

Oh my God, look at my guests. We're so funny. People are listening to us. During the morning drive, I spend like 10, 20 hours preparing for each interview that I do. And I do two interviews a week. And then on Friday, I give advice.

Yep.

And so, Pete, I blend my quote unquote talent, if you will, with a work ethic that nobody really is going to beat because they don't have time and they don't have the desire to do it. So if I spend that much more time, it looks like I'm more curious and curiosity is a mandatory ingredient.

Got it.

But for me, it's just been, I outwork everyone. I out prepare everyone. I prepare more for my shows than anyone else. And so that's why it sounds like a really good in depth profile. And I get information that no, nobody else has gotten out of that same guest.

Got it.

So, you know, you can say, oh, it's curiosity or it's like a good sense of humor. Those are all little ingredients. But nobody's got a great show because they're kind of curious and kind of funny. They're either really funny, like Bill Burr level funny, or they are really, really curious. And they do a great job naturally coming up with questions. But behind that curiosity, there's going to be a ton of work.

Got it.

Like with Bill Burr, there's a ton of work going into his comedy. He doesn't just wake up. People love to go, Bill Burr just wakes up and turns on the mic. I'm like, well, that's what he says he's doing. But what he doesn't tell you is that for 30 years he's been trolling around comedy clubs, working on material and hanging out with other comics for three fucking decades.

Absolutely.

That's the work you don't see. So I would say what goes into a great show, you have to be. You have to be thinking about the audience at all times. That's the main ingredient. What does the audience get out of this? If you're looking at an influencer doing a show, you can tell they're not thinking about the audience. They're thinking about, how cool do I look? How good do I look with this guest? How good do I look with this thread of conversation? Is this selling my mastermind or my online bullshit products? Like, that's what they're thinking. I'm thinking, what value is the audience getting from this? Like, right now? What is the audience getting out of what I'm telling them? I'm saving a ton of time for people that don't want to do a show. Yeah. Secretly think they have to. I'm also giving people to do. Giving people permission to do a show, even if nobody listens, knowing that that's not necessarily a waste of time. That is enormously important. And so being an advocate for the audience is the most important thing. And usually people can't do that because they're too busy thinking about what this is going to get them.

Yeah.

And the answer is it's not going to get you shit if your audience deserts you after five episodes.

Episodes.

Because you don't care about them.

Yeah, absolutely. And real quick, last thing to just wrap it up. I know I. I briefly touched on it at the beginning of this show, but something I've been very curious about that I've heard you talk about is you've been kidnapped twice in two continents and you used to give tours in North Korea. I'd love to. I'd love for you to give our audience a quick synopsis on that, because I thought it was something I was curious on. And I believe it'd be a cool topic to really end this conversation off with because it is something you don't hear that often.

That's true. So I'll give you the 12 sentence version of these.

Yeah.

I got kidnapped once in Mexico because I got into a fake taxi. And I got kidnapped once again in Serbia. Not Siberia, but in the former Yugoslavia, in this country called Serbia. It's an awesome place, but they have kind of crazy gangsters that live there, and those guys were convinced I was a spy and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting kidnapped there too.

Both.

Both encounters lasted a pretty short time. North Korea, I gave to tours up until it became illegal to do so a few years ago.

Okay.

And I went the. One of the first times I went, I saw Dennis Rodman, who was just on my show today.

Okay. Okay, got it. Well. Well, man, I mean, that was. That was the story I wanted to make sure we touch on because it's not when people get kidnapped twice in two different countries. So I definitely appreciate you giving some insight on that for sure. But I mean, that being said, Jordan, I know I want to be respectful of time. I just want to say thank you for coming on because I think the message that you spoke on today, for the people regarding shows and starting them, it gave me a lot of clarity and I'm sure it did the listener as well. So I definitely really appreciate you coming on and talking on what you are an expert at, which is podcasting and really developing this medium over the last decade and a half almost. So I definitely really appreciate the time, Jordan, and I look forward to speaking with you soon.

Yeah, man, thanks for having me on. And people, if they want to learn how to network better, can I drop them the free?

Absolutely. I wonder, I wanted to say, just to wrap it up, where's the best place people can find more about you and learn more about what you're doing?

Sure. So the Jordan Harbinger shows on Spotify or any other podcast application, of course. But I also teach people the networking stuff. Some of the basics that I teach the special forces and intelligence agencies. It's at Jordan harbinger.com course and it's free. It's not like, enter your credit card free. There's no upsell. I literally don't have anything to sell. It's just free. Because the more people that know this stuff, the better.

Yep.

And it makes my life easier because I don't get people being like, hey, I want to network with you. Yeah, take the course. You know, like, yeah. And it helps everyone. It'll help you in your career, It'll help you in your business, It'll help you in your personal life. And it's called six minute networking because it takes like five freaking minutes a day and it's not like a whole to do.

Yep. So got it.

I'll make sure to make networking accessible. Thank you, man.

I appreciate that. Absolutely. And I'll make Sure. I put that down below so that people can check that out. And like I said, so that's five minutes a day. You go on there and you just learn how to network. So I definitely, I'm gonna make sure I give that a nice shout out on the Instagram and everything because I do believe in the power of it and it's networking has been a huge thing in my life. So I definitely appreciate you giving that tool out there.

Cool man. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and your. Your fans, numerous as they are.

Hey, I appreciate it, Jordan. Definitely appreciate you coming on and everyone listening. Make sure you follow Jordan Ch. Check out the link down below in the description and I will talk to you guys soon. Thanks so much.

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