Mat Ishbia - CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage Speaks on Company Culture and Leadership

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This episode is brought to you by Michigan Economic Development Corporation. In Michigan, you can have both a rewarding career and a quality lifestyle. With plentiful career opportunities in world changing innovating industries, from electric vehicles to clean energy to biotech, with room for advancement no matter where you are in your career. Plus, Michigan offers a welcoming, beautiful, affordable and inclusive community for all. Live your best life you can in Michigan. Visit themichiganlife.org foreign what is going on, everyone? Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. We are here with the one and only Matt Ishbia. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

I'm glad to be here with you. Absolutely.

So we're here in Pontiac, Michigan at the UWM headquarters and we were just getting the tour. It's absolutely beautiful. So thank you so much for having us here today.

Oh, yeah. Glad to have you here. We're excited. We love our campus. Glad to have you in person here. It's fun.

Of course. So I want to say, you guys have grown so much over the past year. I believe you guys went from 5,000, almost 10,000 employees. Is that right?

Yeah, we've grown a lot, you know, from I think we're about 9,000 people now and still looking to grow. Not just people, but business as well.

Yeah, I love that. So I want to really take a step back. Like when you think about UWM and the infancies of the business when you came on board, like, what has that journey been like and how do you describe your experience from growing the company to where it is today?

Yeah, you know, it's really just been a great team effort. You know, I got here 18 years ago now, so, you know, and I was a 12th person at UWM and we've grown from 12 people to 9,000 people. But we've grown from, you know, being, you know, just another mortgage company out there to hopefully being one of the best in the country at what we do. And so. But it's been a team effort, you know, so all aspects have to hit, you know, you have to have great culture, which is the environment and how you treat people. You have, you got to invest in technology. There's been so many pieces along the way and you know, I can't take credit for it. I got great people around me. That's really the key in businesses. Get great people around you and they make you look better than you probably really are.

Absolutely. What have been some of the, the biggest challenges over the past year with. I know you guys are working from home now, everyone's back here, it's so cool to see everyone walking around the campus like, what were some of the biggest challenges over the past year and a half when you guys went into hyper growth mode?

Yeah, well, just think about, you know, as you, as you see the culture and the environment here. We're much better in person, we work together, people are high fiving, they're walking by each other, they're collaborating all those things and to get it shut down over a weekend basically and everyone goes home. And we were able to still do it because we got great technology. But that adjustment was definitely the biggest challenge I've had. And at the same time, instead of just kind of just existing, we said, okay, during this, how do we grow? How do we have our best year of all time? Which we did during that time. And then so, and then bringing people back has been the challenge too. Going through that process of just getting back acclimated. So it's been a challenging year, but a fun year. It's fun to be challenged and hopefully succeed.

Yeah, absolutely. And I remember I was watching an interview you did and you guys are really heavy on just technology. I know when we were getting the tour, we were talking about the technology here and you talked about NFTs and crypto and just being a forward thinker in that division. What are Your thoughts on NFTs and the future of crypto overall?

Yeah, you know, the thing is, you know, mortgage companies, you think, oh, mortgage companies are old, they're boring, you know, and so we have to be a leader. We're an innovative mortgage company. We're different. You know, everyone else takes 40, 50 days to close. We close them in 16, 17 days so we can get the house that they want. You know, we have a interesting product here, mortgage, where nobody wants a mortgage. You know, who wants a mortgage? You want a house, you want the savings, you don't really want a mortgage. And so how do you make that process faster, easier and cheaper? And so on the innovation with NFTs, cryptos, even, even, even bots, all the things that we're looking at is how do we push the envelope, how do we make this different than an old stuffy bank that people think of in mortgage. And so we're differentiating, we're trying different things, and. And we're leading with technology.

Absolutely. I love that. How have you taken some of the lessons from your sports background and applied it here at uwm?

Well, it's. It's been a huge part of. Of our success. And my success is just learning from Tom Izzo at Michigan State and at the same time figuring out, you know, how do you apply those things to business? And there's so many parallels, work ethic, mindset, you know, holding people accountable, so many pieces to it. I. I could. I say I could write a book, but I actually did write a book, you know, so it's. It's so big. It's so much of our success. And so what I would tell people is team sports applies to the business world so much more than you realize, and, and working together and having a good attitude and, and caring about one another is so important, and that's really what's helped catapult our growth.

I love that. And. And I can feel that as well, just being here. You know, I. I grew up an athlete, played hockey for 10 years, and I played lacrosse in football, and that's how I got into podcasting and business was. I was in a neck brace for six months, almost paralyzed. And like, that hardship allowed me to see the bigger picture of what I want. But I want to ask you about just sports. When did you get into sports? How have sports been, like, a integral part of your life?

Yeah, so, you know, my whole life, I've been involved with it. You know, watching with my father, going to take me to a Pistons game here and there, or I was able to, you know, play sports growing up. So it's been a huge part of my life. Once again, all, you know, sports like you, when you're playing, when you're younger, you think you're going to play forever, right? But then you realize that there is an end to it. But there doesn't have to be an end to the lessons that you learn and the camaraderie you have. You know, a lot of my old teammates from Michigan State basketball, they work here at uwm. You know, my old coach, we go see him all the time. Like, we're still connected, and then the lessons we learn have applied through. And now actually I coach kids sports. My kids, I have three kids, 10, eight and seven. And so I'm coaching their football, their basketball, their baseball teams, and applying those things there, too. So, you know, sports is a Big part of life. Not because of the sport, but because of the lessons you learn about being a teammate and all those things.

I love that. And I know you guys are really big on culture, and, you know, people talk about, like, the best culture building activities, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on what not to do when building culture, because a lot of entrepreneurs watch this show, and when you think about what not to do, I think it also gives you a cutting edge about, okay, what should I avoid? And, you know, what have I tried that I shouldn't do overall? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah.

You know, so I learned through the years, you know, there's a lot of times, like, when you're trying to build a culture or build a team, you know, you kind of want it to flow. You know what I. The biggest thing I learned on that is to set your culture and your expectations and then live it every day. And what I mean by that is don't just expect people to have a positive attitude. Say, having a positive attitude matters here and at our company, we do this, say we have our six pillars here, which are our pillars, which are our core values, things that we think about and talk about. And when we hire people, we talk about those things. And then what we find is people that aren't aligned, they don't join people that, you know. And then when I ask them, hey, we think service is everyone's responsibility. That's what we talk about at setting the culture. It's not a surprise because we've set that expectation too often people try to say, oh, well, let's kind of let it flow. And, you know, they know what I want. No, they don't know what you want. Tell people what you believe and live by. And you can't live. Say, you have a culture. And then, you know, our culture is, hey, we show up on time. I don't show up 15 minutes to a meeting, late to a meeting. I don't show up late to anything. Like, we have our culture, and I have to live by it. It starts at the top.

Yeah.

And it goes through the whole company.

I love that. When you talk about being on time and these little small things that people could also just not focus on, where do you get that from? Is it innate in you when you. When you think about being on time, being consistent, all these things that entrepreneurs talk about, like, what was your journey of learning these fundamentals as you were growing up, but most importantly, applying them in business.

Yeah. So, you know, you learn it Your whole life, you're always learning, you're always looking around. My father always was a hard worker. You know, he got up early, showed up to work, did his thing. Even when he came home and spent time with me and my brother, then he'd go back to work or pull out his, you know, yellow pad. He's a lawyer, roll out his yellow pad and start working. Back then, he didn't even have computers. He would go back and work. And so I always learned, work ethic wins. That's what success, success just comes from. Work ethic. And then going to Michigan State and seeing Tom Izzo do it at that same level, maybe in a higher level from a work ethic. In early, staying late, out working, everyone. You know, the reality is the little things matter. Some people say, oh, you know, someone says, what's the difference between showing up at 9:01 or 8:59? Well, it's only two minutes. It doesn't really matter. But that's just one corner. How many other corners are you going to cut? How many other things that I can't measure are you cutting? And so we talk about work ethic matters, showing up on time. You know, I came on time to this meeting. I don't come late to things. I'm always on time to everything. Because it shows that you value someone else's time and, and that you care. And those are just, that's just one thing. There's 30 other things like that that we learned.

Yeah, I mean, outside of those small things, when you talk about, like your entrepreneurial or business fundamentals, what advice would you have for someone that's just starting their first business today?

Well, I think the biggest thing is client experience, right? Client experience, everything. Sometimes people think, I got this cool product, I got this. Okay, well, who's your client and what are they going to feel like? How's it going to be for them? And so client experience, and then for us, client and team member experience. Because my clients are not only my, you know, 40, 50,000 loan officers throughout the country, but it's also my 9,000 people that work here. What is their experience? Like every day they come to our office. And so if I manage their experience and my clients that actually do business with me, you're going to win. Stop thinking about a product. Stop thinking about how much money you're going to make. Just figure out what the client wants and deliver it better than they expect and you're going to win in business.

I love that. How have you guys been able to track client experience and how have you innovated in that front of just customer obsession and focusing on the client.

Yeah. So everything we think about is. So first off, you got to actually know what they want. And as a business owner, you know, we have 9,000 people, it's easy to say, oh, well, you know, let's do a survey and find out what they want. No, actually I personally talk to clients. I was showed this last weekend, I went and talked to clients. I find out what, what do we do? Great. What would be one thing you would change about our business? And you find out that they, they give you so much great feedback. So you got to figure that out. That's anecdotal that we also do surveys, we do other information and then we actually, we, we want the feedback. If you crave feedback and ask for it, and rather than like everyone wants to pat you on the back, high five you, I always ask them, what's one thing you would change if you were me? And if you get that question and they give you something, you can go make modification or you, oh, I thought we did it that way. Oh, no, that. And you make changes, you get better.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's like being here with 9,000 people. Like, how have, how have you changed that regarding, like, you know, from the first thousand people to now almost 10,000. How has your leadership fundamentals and style changed over time?

You know, I've tried to focus on being genuine in the way we've done things to always. You know, some people say what got you here won't get you there. I actually don't believe that saying, I think what got you here will get you there. And what got us here was caring about people, showing people that you, you want them to succeed, helping them succeed, creating opportunities. And so my leadership style has been very similar where I challenge people, I hold people very accountable, but at the same time, I highly recognize and high reward people. And so we're very big on that. And we do that all the way through now with 9,000 people, I don't know everyone's name like I used to, but you know what, I go out of my way to touch people. I have a thing called no meeting Thursdays where I will not have a meeting on a Thursday. I walk the floor, I go, I don't talk to my executives, I don't talk to my VPs, I talk to the team members, I sit with them, I say, hey, how's this process? How's the technology? Oh, it doesn't work. What do you mean? It doesn't work. Let me, let me text the CTO about that. Right. Like we're. You got to. You got to stay in the weeds of the business, is the saying I say, which is always down in, in the trenches rather than staying in 10,000ft, 30,000ft. You'll end up losing your business that way.

Absolutely. No, I love that. Fundamental. And I think it's something that, just walking around here, I see and feel just regarding the team and culture here. So that's. That's very cool to hear. What has been the most exciting part of this journey for you? I know last the last year you guys went public and now you have almost 10,000 employees. Like, these are some. These are exciting. So what's been the most exciting milestone for you and how has it made a difference in your life?

You know, I think it's. It'll be amazing. Of course, going public was a milestone I never even imagined. Right. It wasn't something like, let's go public one day. And being on that stage in the New York Stock Exchange was really a cool experience. Something that I never dreamed of, but it was an amazing thing. But, you know, my favorite thing that's happened in the last couple years and like the. It is, you know, bringing our team back together. You know, the COVID kind of shook the world, right?

Yeah.

And people went home and like, I. You didn't know if it was ever going to come back. You didn't know. And so that experience. And we're actually having our company fair this week. We're going to have 20,000 plus people or 9,000 people plus they bring their kids or their grandkids, and we're going to have a fair in the parking lot and rides and games. And that is my favorite stuff is that camaraderie, you know, running a company remote and doing zoom and doing all this thing. And it's not. It's not for me. It is not. So my favorite moment is that family feel that company rally the fair. We're gonna have a big holiday party this year. We have Holly. Like, those things are my biggest things. And so going public is definitely the one you can point to, or winning the national championship basketball you can point to. But really my enjoyment is walking through this building, high fiving people, talking to people and just seeing the team working together.

I love that. When you talk about leadership and even your leaders throughout your life, whether that's coaches or your dad or whomever it may be, do you have any certain mentors that you can point to through Your life that have inspired you along the way to get to where you are?

Yeah. You know, I would probably still go back to, you know, my parents and my brother, who I'm very close with, and he's very successful in business, too, but, like my mom, my dad, and then Izzo, you know. But the one I would say that I don't talk about enough maybe is. Is one of my old teammates. Martin Cleaves actually works here now. He was a national player of the year superstar. But what I learned about from that guy, because Coach Izzo is going to tell you what you're supposed to hear, because he's a coach. Right. And my parents tell you because of their parents. But what I learned from him, Mateen Cleaves, was that your teammate, your peer, can be a great leader and that you don't, you know, pulling someone along with you. That even though he's technically. I don't report to Mateen Cleese, I never reported to him as a player, but he was a leader in a person in my life. And so seeing how you can lead without having the title is a big thing. Because a lot of people talk to me, oh, you know, when I become the manager, I'm going to do this. It's like, you don't have to be the leader or manager, and I don't use that word, but the leader to lead, be a leader on the floor, be a leader, do the right things without the title. And Mateen was that years ago when I played with him.

I love that. I want to take a step back. So you talk about managing your time very efficiently, like, outside of work. What excites you about life, Family, kids, sports? Where do you spend your time?

You know, so my life's not that exciting, unfortunately. It's here, working, because I enjoy making an impact on people and the people that work here and seeing them flourish and succeed. But then everything else I do outside of here is with my three children. I have three wonderful children coaching their sports, being involved, you know, teaching them lessons, and at the same time, like, you know, I'm working a lot. So they see I work a lot. They see that I care. They see that, you know, I'm very big on time management, you know, in order to be successful. You know, I have a thing I talk about. You know, everyone gets 24 hours. You do? I do. You've obviously been very successful. A lot of people want to have a great podcast like you do. A lot of people trying to do what you do, but are they willing to Put the work in. And I look at as I got 24 hours and so do you. And I have to prioritize. My kids and my work are my priority. I don't watch tv, I'm not out partying. Like, I don't have that. And in order to be successful, you can't be like, oh, I want to do a little bit of everything. Yeah, you can do that. That's called being average. Right. If you want to be great, you have to prioritize your time. Time management is a big skill. My time matters. I got 24 hours and so do you. And how do I compete? And that's how I think about it.

I love that. And I've heard you. You wake up between 3:30 and 4 every day. Is that correct?

Yeah, I try to get here at 4am in a suit and tie. We'll call it between 4 and 5. But in a way, once again, outwork everyone. It's the amount of hours that I don't care. I didn't come from a lot of money. I didn't come with a lot. I'm not as smart as other people, but I can outwork people. And that's kind of how we built this.

I love that. Like what, when you're by yourself working before the people, like the employees get here, like, what is that mindset and how do you tap into that energy and how can people learn from that when it comes to that, that sacred time that is just you or you're focused on some particular task before all the noise and people and culture and energy. Like, how do you maximize that every day?

Yeah, it's my favorite time. It's my grind time. 4am to 8am is how I think about it. Between those four hours, I'm getting more stuff done than I think most people get done the rest of the day. Right. I'm responding to emails, I'm reaching out and recognizing team members. I'm sending happy birthday emails to people that work at our company whose birthday is today. You know, going out of my to catch people doing things right while at the same time responding. And a lot of times I'm directing traffic because no one's at the office. So therefore I'm not calling and talking about. So I'm leaving voicemails. Here's what I think we should do. Can you follow up with this? Let me know. And then around 8am, all the work starts coming back my way. Hey, you reached out to this person. They're sending you this. Follow up on this report. All those things and so 4 to 8 is my grind time is the most effective time of my day and I won't take meetings that time either. I'm always working, trying to make things happen and trying to make an impact at the that time.

I love that. How do you manage your communication most efficiently? Because I know you're talking to team members and I think this is something that I try to do where it's like our schedules are unmatchable when it comes to the amount of messages and emails you probably get. But how do you manage that on such a high scale when communicating with your team, your employees, your family and everyone that's trying to reach you because you're a busy guy.

Yeah. So it's the most important thing people forget. Like, you know, people say, oh, how do I get in touch with you? I said just email me. I mean I respond to every email myself. I'll respond to your email, I'll follow up with you. Might be at 3:30 in the morning, but I will respond to an email and get back with people. I think showing people that you're available and that you care is the most important thing you can do as a leader. You know, when people email, I email happy birthday and they respond back. And I respond back, thank you. Like I will respond back to them to show them that I'm on top of this and that I care. And I think sometimes people let that fade away. When you grow a company, oh well, don't worry about, oh, I don't respond to that person. Like if I know you, if you work in my company, if we're doing like I'm replying, I'm giving you. And sometimes I reply things you don't want to hear, some other things you want to hear, but I will reply. And so I think that communication standard of excellence is so important. That same thing with business. Like we talk about, we have a thing called no call left behind, which means when you call, we answer 98.7% not the receptionist, of course. We have the that what we call them welcome associates. But actually the team member, you call them. And if I'm away from my desk, my pick, someone will pick up for me. Like we want to talk to people. Communication is key.

I love that. So when you think about the future of UWM the next five, 10 years, like what excites you the most about this company moving forward?

Well, I think the opportunity ahead of us, you know, we're very big, we've grown. We're the second largest mortgage company in America. The number one wholesale end of the country. But I think, like, we're just getting started. The opportunity is ahead of us. And so we are. We think we're the best mortgage company in America. We'll eventually become the biggest, as in, we'll take over the number one spot. But that's not what excites me. What excites me is the impact we can make on consumers. Because consumers don't know how to get a mortgage. They still think, you call bank or you ask your parents and you put 20% down. It's just the wrong way. You got to go to findamortgagebroker.com you find a local person that's an expert, and they will shop on your behalf. And so it's like, gosh, only 20% of mortgages go through brokers right now, and it should be 70%, 80%. And so we're going to work on educating consumers on a bigger platform and make an impact. Because it's not about money. I'm not chasing money. I'm chasing winning and success, and money follows success. And so we're going to keep doing that for years to come. So next five, 10 years, big opportunity ahead.

I love that. And like, for context, I'm 21 years old. I don't own a house. I currently rent. When you're talking to someone that's looking to get their first mortgage, I'd love for you to just even break that process down a little bit. For the people that are watching this, that may not know that, that are just learning about this mortgage industry.

Yeah, you know, it's complex. Right. It's not like buying an airline ticket.

Like, I'm just going to go online.

And just figure out, no, a mortgage is complex. You're buying your most expensive asset of your life. It's your biggest financial decision. And so many times people say, okay, I'm gonna try to. I'm gonna look it up myself. Go to findamortgagebroker.com find an expert. It's just like going to the doctors, like, oh, I'm gonna perform my own knee surgery. No, go get the best knee specialist. You're not. You don't do a mortgage very often. You don't want to do it. Right. And so it's not the same everywhere. Just like a knee surgery is not the same. You get the best doctor or you get the guy that just started doing it. It's like, I'm not sure I'm going to work with the guy that just started. It's my Knee.

Yeah.

Same thing with your mortgage. It's really important. So educating people that it's not 20% down. It's not. It doesn't. Credit score is not the only thing that matters. Oh, it's not. Oh, you know, if you want to do it with your girlfriend or buy a house, like, you don't know these things. And the thing is, you shouldn't know them because why would you care? Nobody cares about a mortgage. Right? Go to findamortgagebroker.com it's honestly the biggest piece of. And by the way, that doesn't come to uwm. That's not like a place plug of uwm that goes to brokers, and then the brokers shop at all the best lenders and they find you the best deal. And so I feel great about that and educating consumers because it's. When I speak at colleges or I speak to younger people or people homeownership classes, they always want to know what should I do? And I say, just go to findamortgagebroker.com, type in your address. You'll find an expert who will guide you. Then they'll find a realtor for you that can find the house. But you want to know what you can afford and how much it's going to cost and how to do it. You got to do that stuff first.

I love that. That was very insightful. Insightful. So thank you. When you talk about improving, if you look at the company or even yourself, right, like right now, in this current version of you, where do you think you can improve the most? Because I know everyone can always learn more, do more, be more. So when you look at yourself in the mirror, like, where can you improve?

You know, so there's so many places I can improve. We'll take the rest of the podcast to talk about. There's always ways to get better. So I'm always finding, like, what happens is you start really focusing on this and it gets better. And then it's like, this is not as good, so you got to keep moving things around. And so I'm always working on improving myself, you know, from. From knowledge of the business. So I'm reading a lot of things to meeting with different people and customers and knowing what other competitors are doing. But the biggest thing to improve on is your people skills. Right. If you can't go out of your way and talk with people. And so I. For me, the one thing has changed. I'm very. I'll talk to people all day. What I've realized Over time is that sometimes as we get bigger, people are, you know, uncomfortable approaching me. And so I actually go out of my way to talk to people that would not talk to me in the past or that. That I wouldn't have went up to just so that they know that they can comfortably talk. Because someone that's maybe only been in our company three months and they see me walking through, they don't come up and say hello, introduce themselves. So I go up to them and so making sure that I. So what I'm improving is I want to make sure that everyone knows that I'm the same person that we built this company with. I'm very approachable. I go out of my way to talk to people, and I will come to you. And even if you're not comfortable coming.

To me, I love that. And that's. That's such a superpower, in my opinion. Like, being someone that has such a finite amount of time, so many people to talk to, like, going out of your way to do that. I'm sure it makes anyone even doing something like this, right? Being on my podcast, taking the time to do it. I feel that, and I appreciate that so much.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you. It's. It's fun to be part of it.

Totally. So when you. When you're thinking about your business endeavors. Uwm, in this conversation, how do you think about, like, what is that next level? Right. I know you talk about the next five, 10 years being number one, but most importantly, focusing on people. Like, how do you quantify the next level in business? Because I'm sure when you got started, when there was only a thousand people here, getting to 10,000, like, that wasn't the goal. You were focused on just building one at a time. So, like, where does it go from here? From 10, almost nearly 10,000 employees, as we talked about going into the next five, 10 years. But just a quantifiable goal that you're excited about, that the team is excited about when it comes to moving the needle.

Yeah. So it's. It's. There's a lot of things that we look at. So I'm big.

I.

Like you said quantifiable, because we. Oh, I want to get better. I want to improve. Like, what is the number? How do I know you got there? Right? And so team members is not as big of a focus. There's like 9,000. We could have 8,000. We have 12,000. I like having a lot of team members. I can make a big impact on people, but that's not the goal being the number one overall land in the country. You know, we were number two overall. We will be number one. Is that the goal? Yeah, it's the goal, but that's. We're going to get there. That's not the focus right now. The focus is on winning every single day. And the big number, the metric that I'm looking at, because it's not only going to tie to my business, but it's going to tie to the impact I can make. And the growth of our company is, Is educating consumers. And it's getting one out of every three mortgages, 33% to go through brokers then, rather than one out of every five. Because I know loans go to brokers that, first off, consumers save 3,700 bucks. I feel good that they're saving money, but at the same time, so I'm making an impact and it gives us a chance to grow. And so I'm focused on helping others. And brokers are throughout the country helping them grow. If they grow. And by the way, they could grow and I could shrink. And that, that means I'm not doing a good enough job. I'm not going to let that happen. But it's about helping others and doing right by consumers and brokers and then good things that happen. So the goal on our boards, everywhere at our company, is one out of three mortgages go through brokers. Educating consumers, getting out there, and helping consumers win, brokers win, and then at the end, UWM will win, too.

Love that. Well, couple more questions before we wrap up here. Matt, if you were to start all over and you were to give yourself advice moving into your journey again, what would that advice be and why?

The biggest thing that I would have maybe thought of differently at the beginning was, first off, I always knew work ethic and attitude would win. So that wasn't different. I was in there and I. And I didn't know it would win as big as it has, but that's for sure. I would give myself, like, stick with what works outwork everyone. But the biggest advice is, is to think bigger. You know, like when we were. When I started as 12 people, I never thought of this place Like, I never thought of 9,000. I never even imagined it like this. You know, I was always thinking, like, gosh, can I, can I make $100,000 a year one day? Like, that was my goal. Like, or not even. Like, could I, Could I, Could I get to 30 people? Could I be the leader? Can we get more loans? Like, it was never, like, gosh could we change the landscape of mortgage? Could we change housing in America? And now setting these huge goals, you know, then you got to have a small little goals on the way up. But, you know, I would just say, and I know it's a. It's a cliche because you kids, you tell kids you can do anything you want when you grow up, you know, but the reality is you can, if you really want to, work at it. And so what I would have told myself back then is anything. You put crazy big goals. I always wanted to play, you know, in the NBA, right? I want to be an NBA basketball player. I wasn't good enough. Now it's like, I never thought of owning an NBA team, but now it's like, I'm going to own an NBA team. For sure I can own it. Like, how do I get there, right? And like, I never thought that big, but I would say dream big and then get in the weeds and work hard to get there.

I love that. Well, I'm excited. Owning an NBA team, that's. That's an incredible goal. I love to dive deep into that if you want to, because I think like, that in and of itself is monumental, even just to have that thought process to go. And coming from, hey, let me. How can I make 100 grand a year? Say, how can I own a sports team? Like, you're a big sports guy. What team comes to mind? Or what team would you want to own?

Yeah, you know, well, I love basketball, obviously, but, you know, you know, my. My drive is like, how can I tie. Take this excitement of energy and passion I have for business and apply it to business and sports combined, whether it's an NBA team, NFL team, a major league baseball team. Like, I'm going to own a team. Maybe we're going to own two. We're going to figure out how to do this. And it's not just about winning there, but it's going to be winning, but making an impact in the community. Of course. I'm from Detroit. I love the Pistons. I love the Lions. I'm actually friends with a couple of the owner of the Pistons. But that. That's probably not like, you got to find a team. You got to find a place that you can go and create an opportunity. And so probably won't be in Detroit. But at the same time, I'm really excited about the opportunity. Sometime the next 10, 15 years is, can I own a team?

I love that. Well, Matt, last question before we wrap up. And that is just where can everyone listening continue to Follow w UWM continue to follow you and your journey and to learn more about what we might not have covered today.

You know, just, you know, you can go. You follow me on social media just like I follow you. You know, get connected on social media, whether it's on, you know, LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook, whatever it may be. But, you know, that's really what I think about it because I'm going to try to be out there as much as possible and educate people. But, you know, whether it's on tv, on great podcasts like yours, but just educating people and, you know, following us there and Obviously our website's uwm.com but I think the big thing is, you know, social media is the place to follow us.

Absolutely. Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I genuinely appreciate your time and look forward to seeing what you guys do over the next five to ten years.

Oh, well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Perfect.

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