Mesh Gelman: Founder & CEO of Cumulus Coffee on Revolutionizing Cold Coffee at Home

Welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today I am joined by Mesh Gelman, the founder and CEO of Cumulus Coffee. Mesh, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you, Casey, for having me excited to be here.

Of course. So, I mean, so first things first, I know we were talking a little bit beforehand, but we got the nitro cold brew fresh and ready for the show today. And for people that may not know Cumulus Coffee, and just to give a quick high level, I came across this product probably two, three weeks ago. And you know, I'll let you fill in the blanks here, but you guys have have created quite the revolutionary at home cold coffee machine. From cold brew to nitro, cold brew to cold espresso. And as a coffee fanatic myself, I was just completely blown away when I first came across this. And that leads me to you, like, where did this idea, Mesh, come from for Cumulus? And like, bring us back to what inspired, what it is that you created today. And maybe give a quick highlight if I missed anything about what it is that you and the team have created so far.

It's all about exactly what you just described and experienced is the moment and is everything that we aspire to do is to really just blow the minds of people with something that's so amazing and so fantastic that it's just like, what? And I'm like, really? No. And it's like. And it's that joy, that constant joy. It's so rewarding when you see people enjoy something over and over and over and over and over again to the level where they just become so passionate about it. And that is more than anything, it's that joy and that reward that drives me more than actually the C brewing and the nitro coil blue itself, if that even makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. When you say the joy, and I'm not just saying this too because we're here on the show, but I don't think I've ever tracked a package more diligently in my life. And even my fiance now, she's like, I've never seen you be so excited about a package and looking at the delivery date every single day. And I don't know if it's because I just was so anticipating, like the at home cold brew nitro cold experience. But you guys have done a very great job at doing just that, as you mentioned. And I want to say congrats for that because the customer experience and the brand and how it shows up and the anticipation for people that really enjoy coffee at home, especially, you know, Wanting that cold experience, it's. It's truly remarkable, and I'm excited to dive into it today, the story. And again, appreciate you taking the time to come on the show for sure.

The five days or so, because I think you're on the west coast, and right now the machines are shipping from the east coast, so took a little bit of time to get there. I would say a day for each year that it took us to develop that machine and a lot of work to really create that moment. When something looks really simple and easy on the outside and it's intuitive, it just highlights the complexity on the inside. The inside doesn't necessarily mean when you break it apart and look inside, but it's the thought process and the problems that needed to be solved or the engineering challenges that needed to be created. I'm sorry that the engineering solves that need to be created. To solve and create this moment is really what the, like, the hero of the story is in the machine development. You'll see. And we won't go long before I start talking about that. Ultimately, it's not about the machine and it's not about anything, but it's really about the cup. And the proof is really in the glass every single time to be able to have a great cup of coffee in the most premium form on demand in your home. And that, like, is. That's what we ultimately set out to do and we're now starting to share it with people.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, so you guys officially launched this year. Talk like, bring us back. I know in terms of your story, you worked as an executive at Starbucks and you've had quite the journey. But before we really dive into your background, when was it that you began working on Cumulus? And as you mentioned, you know, the timeframe of getting the product iterated to then officially launching this year? Like, how long has it been just for the audience and even myself that you know the time put into Cumulus thus far?

Yeah. So here we are, right. December 30, 2024.

Yes.

We're still officially a launch year. So working backwards, we literally are. Not only are we in launch here, we're in launch season. So we started shipping to customers just now, this last quarter. So at the end of September was when we first units went out the door to customers. So it's been only about three months now that we've been in customers, homes and people enjoying Cumulus on a daily basis. So 2024, obviously, everything coming together was a very hectic year, but the journey started in late 2018, I had left Starbucks at the end of 17. I kind of made myself this like, kind of promise to myself that I'm gonna do anything but coffee. And you know, just because I wanted to, like, just, you know, just, just. Yeah, just do something else. But coffee is so enjoyable and such a. Like you can't, like once it's in your blood, you can't get it out and it's like. So I would say late 2018 is when the idea started, like, really picking up momentum and like, there's something big here. There's something big. So many people drink cold, it's so hard to do. The most premium form of cold brew, which is what you're drinking right now, a nitro cold brew. So complicated to make, not even at home. There you go. I love watching that. Look at your cup. It's so beautiful.

I know. If you're, if you're listening to this episode, make sure you go watch the video as well. Because I'm showing the nitro cold brew on camera here.

I figured for a prop that, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to be more authentic and I'm not going to have a cold brew in my hand. The other thing is that I'm like probably six drinks in already and I.

Was gonna get there. I mean, I can't imagine the amount of caffeine that you drink in a daily basis. Does it fluctuate? Has that changed over the time, over the years?

You know, the good thing about coffee, it's an expanding category. How much coffee can you drink? You know, not enough. Right. Yeah. And it's like, so especially now during the holiday season, I'll go for another. Probably one or two cups before the day's out. And it's like just a little bit after three here in New York. So. Yeah. So something coffee sticky.

Yeah. Something that you mentioned that I, I'd love to dive into, which and to kind of bring us back to your journey at Starbucks. And something that stuck out to me, I remember hearing that, you know, you saw or you were. You know, when it comes to the data itself, you realize that 75% of drinks bought consumed at Starbucks were cold, cold beverages, but 90 to 95% of home coffee was hot. Therefore, there's this big discrepancy. Bring me back to when that became more apparent to you. Was that while you worked at Starbucks afterwards or where did that realization come from? To then go obviously create this category defining product in.

When I started at Starbucks a few years before So I was at Starbucks in 2012 through 18, you know, through 17. So for six years. And when I started there, cold beverages only represented like 35%. And there was like this monumental shift from hot to cold across everything. Not just coffee, right? Just everything. Cold, cold, cold, cold. But what happened was, was that what I started noticing, I was a hot latte drinker at the beginning of my journey at Starbucks. And by the time I left, I was exclusively cold. And it wasn't like a conscious decision. I got to switch to cold. It was like something happened. I don't even know how it happened. Right. And like, when you start realizing that this is like, for me, this was my beverage of choice. My beverage of choice. The inability to have an amazing cup of cold at home was astonishing to me. Take that. Couple that with the fact that in the hot coffee beverage category, we have done so much, there's so much beautiful and amazing work to create great coffee moments at home. But yet, like, so exactly like you said, the beverage of choice that everybody's drinking was just not possible to do at home. And that was like, that has to change.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those things where I remember when I saw it, it's like, wow, why didn't I think of that? Right? Those great ideas were like, yes, cold at home, cold coffee experience. The machine itself, I want to touch on it because obviously it's this and I'll make sure to put all the links down below that people can check it out. It's this beautiful machine, like takes up a nice amount of space where you look at it and you're like, wow, this is gorgeous. How what about the machine and specifically the nitro cold brew experience? I believe, because I'm obviously doing my research, it takes nitrogen from the air to then infuse it within the coffee. Talk to me about the complexity of nitro cold brew and really what makes this machine so unique in terms of the nitro itself that is built in into it.

So if you would, let's start with why nitrogen and what happens when you put nitrogen inside to a beverage. When you infuse coffee with nitrogen, you could take a black cup of coffee that has real coffee taste to it like that reason why crazy stat. Like 80% of the US put sugar and milk into or creamer into their coffees, whatever they're, whether it's plant based or regular milk or anything like that. And when you infuse coffee with nitrogen, those little, little, little, little tiny bubbles that get formed create this fascinating transformation in the Glass where it gets creamy and velvety, but there's no sugar and there's no milk. So you all of a sudden you take a cup of nitro and you drink it. The word feels like very like harsh. Like I always see like it's like nitro if you like. Reminds me of like a car with like a revving muffler, you know, right. It's like has like this like really like, like muscle sound to it. But the beverage is actually really sweet and creamy. It's very soft, it's very gentle and it has like this wonderful feel on your mouth and like this idea that you could accomplish something that's sweet and creamy but you don't have to put anything in, no extra calories. That itself is like fascinating. So how do you do that? How's that get done in a cafe environment underneath the counter, there's a lot of machinery there to make that happen. There's these big tanks of gas full of pure nitrogen and they get assembled through an assembly system through kind of like what you would see at a cafe or a bar and things like that. And takes up a lot of space, costs a lot of money. But here's the bummer about it is that even in a cafe, right, it's very hard for this thing to always work. It's breaking down, needs to be serviced, the temperatures are off, the ratios are off, the tank is running out of gas. This was all these ah, moments that really prevent from having that great experience in your class. But when you do get it mind blowing. So let's put that all together and say, hey, if we could deliver to you Kasey in your home, nitro on demand, you don't have to worry about the fuss, you don't have to figure out how to get the gas tanks. And we could do that consistently and we could create like the highest form of a great beverage for you. Wouldn't that be the most amazing experience? And that's really one of the core technologies that sit within the machine is this ability to go ahead. And by sourcing the nitrogen from the air that we breathe, we're able to not rely on an external gas tank with nitrogen that will run out or that you have to buy and you have to worry about keeping it in stock and whatever it might be. None of that concern, literally just plug and play. Similar to your experience that you've had since you've had your machine. It's there every time. Just.

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's, that's super insightful. Just I know for myself I've always been a huge Nitro fan. And if people aren't like, having you describe like that, it's very, very insightful there. I want to mash. I want you to take us back. You know, prior to Cumulus Starbucks, growing up, did you have aspirations to start company? These entrepreneurial tendencies, or where does this journey start for you in terms of wanting to go create something? Maybe bring us back to early childhood, teen years, etc.

Oh, wow. You want to go. You want the whole story?

Yeah, of course.

So I'm a born and raised New Yorker. I share the middle child position with my sister and grew up in a large family. And I would say that the one thing, like, if I try to like, think back, it's always been about being curious and adventurous. It's like I always want to know how things work, why is this, what's going on, what we could imagine, and always, like, get distracted because I was curious, like, I needed to understand, I wanted to discover. And I was always exploring and. But the kind of like college wasn't so much. You know, I had a different track. I. As you can see, I have a yarmulke on my head. And I went to. Thank you. Thank you. I went to. I went to a yeshiva where we studied kind of like, you know, you know, kind of Jewish law and things like that. And I was really, like, uncertain where what I wanted to do professionally. So I was like exploring this journey about what I wanted to do. And for me, what really happened was what later, as I reflect, was to get closer to the moment of connection. What motivates me is like what I said at the beginning when we started chatting. It's not about the coffee, but it's about creating wow moments for people and bringing that joy, knowing that we could touch people's lives where it's impactful and getting as close to them as possible to be able to get that done, in this case, by having a company that we're directly selling to the consumer, we have the opportunity to talk to our customers, understand what they like, what they don't like. That for me has always been like the condensing. And my career followed that path of condensing that journey, getting closer and closer to the customer. I started out my career very far away from the customer, and little did I know that every step I made was just a step getting closer to where we're interacting directly with our customer.

No, that's. That's beautiful. And it. It reminds me of something you said on another podcast that I Listened to was when you started at Starbucks, everyone starts in the store, I believe. And you said how, you know, you start, you're, you know, in the bathroom, cleaning the place, and then to get to that, you know, making the drink experience, talking to the customer, like, you have to earn that right. And I think, you know, it's very parallel of like the personal journey of like earning through trials and tribulations, experiences, career paths to have that direct conversation or more, more so product, direct to consumer. It's really cool to hear. And kind of those parallels to me stick out.

That's. I, I didn't tie that together, but that's, that's. I like that. I like that. It's so nerve wracking when the first time I was behind the bar making beverages, I had like a little code with another barista. It's like every time there was a beverage coming my way and like, I didn't remember exactly how to make it, I'd give a little kick. I'd be like, okay, like, look, look over here. Like, you know, trying to maintain eye contact with the customer. So how's your day going? I like my hands like, okay, pass me the syrup, pass me. And it's like, it's very overwhelming. Like, you're multitasking. Like, you're, you want to like, create that moment of connection. You want to, like, engage your customer. And, and one of the things about Starbucks is that the, the beverages are made facing the customer.

Right.

You don't turn your back. You're facing the customer and you're like making beverages. Like, like, you want white in it. And you look at the cup and you're like, there's like a lot of like exactly what you think Two pumps it is. Three pumps of that, half steamed, and you're like, what? It's. It can be very overwhelming. But ultimately, you know that if you get that right and that smile that you, that you're gonna earn for it, it's like, it makes it worthwhile. So. But I never thought of that. Like, from the bathroom to the, you know, to the bar. Yeah. Wash your hands in between.

Absolutely. For sure. And speaking of Starbucks, one thing that obviously I know that we spoke about briefly is just, you know, entrepreneurial stories. And, you know, if people are listening to this, hopefully they're huge coffee fanatics, but if not, everyone is obviously aware. Starbucks, the global behemoth that they've built and become. And obviously the man behind that, Howard Schultz, he's someone that I remember listening to an episode he did on Acquired the podcast earlier this year, and I know, and please fill in the gaps after this, but Howard's an investor in Cumulus. Correct. And I want you to take us back because I'm just so fascinated by, you know, relationships, stories, and that's a huge part of this show. Like, take us back to the. When you first met Howard, I believe it was at a charity event where you went up and said hello. How did that relationship go from walking up to Howard, maybe introducing yourself at a charity event, to then becoming an investor in now your company?

I attribute it to three words, and it's something that I've watched Howard do over and over and over again. And that's. What's your story? What's your story? I'm taking interest in people and hearing from them and listening to their story was kind of this moment where if you're there and you're engaged in that moment and you have an interesting story, who knows what could happen? And I always marvel when I watch people meet people for the first time or interact. And I incorporated it years ago into kind of like my. Even in interviews, when I'm interviewing people for job candidates, I'm like, what's your story? And they say, well, I went to Emerson and I graduated with a thing, and I did that. Then I had my first job here. I'm like, stop. What's your story? Yeah, because you really, like, we are who we are because of so many different inputs into our lives. And inevitably, when you're going to tell your story. I'm going to tell my story. The things that either subconsciously or that I'm not even aware of that helped shape me to who I am is going to be part of my story that I'm going to tell. And I think that that was like, one of the things that it wasn't just this moment in time meeting. How are you? That's fascinating. Look what you've accomplished. Da, da, da, da, da. It was that simple question about what is your story that is so impactful. And it's like, if there's one thing that, like, whoever is listening to this or wherever that you can, like, really, like, hone in on, it's that one thing I would say is always ask and be willing to share also, what is your story? And with that, it's like, you never know. You never know if you're curious and you just listen. Which is the name of your listener. That's obviously a lot about what you're about.

Indeed.

Who knows where the. Like, be open and be open for the journey to go somewhere.

Yeah, that's. It's. It's. I love that. Just what's your story and the emphasis on that. And I, I feel that, you know, at least for me, the seven years of hosting this show, like, that's the question. And that compounded over time, has become so important to just, like, the everyday life for me. But it's. It's powerful, right? Like, to really hear someone not for the. The accolades or the things that they. They might want to, like, shove to the front, but the things that are, like, very deeply rooted into what makes someone them and things you really got to maybe pull out that they might not initially just share if they're looking for that highlight reel or just like the accolades that they want to focus on and something too. One of my favorite quotes is the Steve Jobs is, you can. Can never. You can never connect the dots looking forward, only looking backwards. And something that I always love mentioning, that was a goal, but didn't come true for a couple years where my last company, when we went. When we went out to raise a round of funding, it's relevant to the conversation I brought up with Howard. We raised a round of funding in 2021 from, like, 37 angel investors. And I always like to say that 90% of the capital raised was from past guests on my podcast. And was that the goal, to sit down with these people and have them invest in future companies? Like, not at all. But the, you know, it's like the quote, you can never connect the dots looking backwards. Like, I had all these great people in my corner. I was launching something new. I wanted to get feedback, and lo and behold, you know, a handful of them came on board. And for me, just the ability to see how one thing leads to the next is. I love hearing that in retrospect. So maybe walk us through the journey from meeting Howard, because I got to say, as a consumer and a huge fan of the product, I remember watching one of the videos, and Howard, if you're watching this, he has the nitro in hand and he takes a sip of the coffee and he says, that's damn good coffee. And I remember seeing that. And I'll make sure to play it on the screen and link it down below. And I'm like, oh, my God, that level of stamp of approval and just that founder to brand connection and knowing that he's an investor was so inspiring and cool to see as a consumer, but also someone that's, you know, a huge business interviewer, podcaster. And so first, like, Kudos to you. And it's so cool to see that brand integration and how natural that that comes across to the, you know, consumers. But, yeah, maybe walk us through, like, how that relationship evolved from that initial three word of. What's your story?

Yeah, it's. I just want to jump to that moment with the cop, right. Where so just, just, just so your, your listeners know this. So Cumulus has no affiliation with Starbucks. You know, obviously I worked there and Howard founded the company. So there's some strong kind of like, historical connections.

Yeah.

But Cumulus as a company is a standalone, completely nothing to do with Starbucks. But of course, having Howard drink that coffee, and one thing about him is that he says it as it is, that's probably why he has been as successful as he has, is that he doesn't skirt issues, he doesn't tiptoe around things. And that visceral response and that reaction was so genuine. And it was like, I've watched that video a thousand times. It's so like, it's what a moment, right? The only thing I probably watch more is when I make a cup and I watch the clouds form in the cup. That's the other thing that I. That I could watch like four or five times a day. But going back to your question about what happened at that dinner and then how did that morph into, you know, where we are today, what that journey was when. When I met Howard at that dinner. So just a little bit of context, right? So at that time, I was in a completely different industry. I was in the home fashions business. And what is that? We did soft furnishings for the home. So companies like a Target or a Macy's, JCPenney Kohl's, we would do private label, so their brands and their stores, we would do private label for them, making things like comforters, sheets, pillows, towels, etc. And that dinner, that particular charity dinner, the former CEO of JCPenney, Mike Ullman, was being honored. So us as a vendor and having a very strong business relationship with J.C. penney, we were participating at that dinner, and we were guests there. You know, we had paid to the charity to be part and to support what Mike Altman was being honored for. Anecdotally, Mike Ullman at that time was also a board member of the Starbucks Coffee company, which is why it set the stage for me to be in the room and Howard Schultz to be in the room. I was there celebrating my client, Mike Olman, receiving the award for the charitable work. Howard was there as Mike is a member of his Board to go ahead and present him with the award speech. But my love for coffee and a need to meet the man who is behind was really changing something from a commodity to an experience, which a lot of us take that for granted. But back in the day when this was happening, this was early 2000s, Starbucks was becoming a household name. They had gone to, you know, they were spreading across the country. They were probably at that time in 30 countries, not 78 or 80 that they're in today. They probably had 8,000 stores, not the 38,000 that they have today. So it was becoming more and more ubiquitous. But it's like, it's the thing that everybody who was cool drank, right? Like, I remember walking down the. The streets of New York and people had white strings coming out of their ears and holding a white cup with a green logo. And, you know, the white strings were the ipods, right? And there was the headset from Apple. And the green cup, the white cup with the green logo was Starbucks. And that's what all the cool people did, right? So the ability to meet somebody who change behavior and said, take your, like, your guzzle it down, must have drink and create it into a special moment and is able to do that at scale, right? He understands the human condition. I want to meet that man. And that was like, what prompted me to go over and we had like, some other, you know, connection once we got into conversation. I took Howard seriously when he said, hey, stay in touch. And I don't know if he meant it or not. I mean, I do. He did mean it, but I was like, yes, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do that. And I stayed in touch. And anytime I would find myself on the west coast or, you know, found a reason to kind of like, engage or reach out, I would do that. And over the years, at that time, Howard was retired from Starbucks. He had retired for the first time in 2000. This was through, like, 2004, 2005. And I would engage with him and. And it was like I got to hear and see and learn about Starbucks through the eyes of the man who kind of dreamed it and built it. And that was like, to me, having a front row seat at that was, like, so fascinating. And then over the years, I think that it was like, my curiosity, my interest in kind of like merchandising. And really, ultimately we were at that time in our home fashions and our soft goods business. We were selling to many, many retailers. And we had what we call the term was doors. How many doors are you in Right. Like, and we were in thousands of doors, but I didn't know who my customer was. I knew they shopped in Macy's, they shopped in JCPenney or whatever. Right. But, like, they didn't know me because they'd be buying, like, you know, JCPenney Home Collection or, you know, Macy's, whatever. Right. But they didn't, like, necessarily know, so the dots weren't connecting. And then, like, when you go into Starbucks and, like, the barista's like, you know, hey, Casey, can I get you a drink? It was like, wow, you know each other. And it's like, we had all these doors, and we had to, like, push through all the noise. When you go into a department store, there are thousands of product being sold. How do we get the attention of somebody and make them go through this transformation of, like, I like it, I want it, I need it. Like, you know, they see it. Like, they just kind of like, I need that in my life. And. And here is like. And I think it's, like, kind of, like, always fighting to get there. That was my journey, was always, how do I get closer? And what a better place. There was no better place to do that than at Starbucks. One Howard came back to Starbucks in 2008, where, you know, the famous moment in time when he shut all the stores, everybody got retrained on coffee and everything like that. And then a few years later, he was like, mesh, you know, this the retail part of the business, where we could use some of that, like, merchant mentality. It was like, yes, yes. Like. Like, it wasn't even a hesitation. I'm like, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in.

That's so cool to hear, and I appreciate you sharing that. I think there's so many stories within that, and obviously, there's so much that we won't be able to get to everything and everything today. But, you know, the transition from like, industries to then, like, saying yes, what do you think led you to, you know, saying that? Yes. I always love talking about how, whether you're moving a new state or a new country or starting a new company or making a big career change, that white space that I like to call it that my buddy Sriram Krishnan talks about, he was previously like, a GP at Andreessen Horowitz and recently got assigned of head of AI in the new presidency. He talked about this. The white space of time of, like, what leads people to make big, bold decisions. What led to that for you, Mesh, in terms of saying yes to Howard, you're working at this company. You have a huge presence. Was that a hard decision? Was that an easy decision? Bring us back to that transition period in your life.

I think the hardest part of that decision. Well, first of all, to get an opportunity to have a front row seat to one of the greatest companies, consumer companies of all time is not a hard decision by the man who founded it. Not a hard decision. Right. In doing something that you're passionate about, which is kind of like retail and merchandising and just being a merchant. Also not a hard decision. Probably the hardest part was figuring out how to straddle the east coast and West Coast. So Starbucks is based out of Seattle and I'm based in New York. And our families kind of like settled kids in school and everything like that. And really seeing if it would be possible to design a way to do that where it would be productive for the company and meaningful for the company, despite the fact that it would be like some heavy commuting some days. This is way before the whole work from home thing ever was a thing. Right. And like, how. How to make that to be kind of like really productive and. And a win for the company was kind of like, we're a lot of the thought process in kind of like maybe a little bit of the hesitation figuring out, you know, more than anything.

Absolutely. No, I know. I appreciate that context and, you know, something getting to Cumulus. But more importantly, you know, you talk about your love for coffee. Where does this love for coffee stem from in your life and where did this begin?

I think it came from the ability for me. I think it really. Starbucks gets the credit. That's like the, like, the real, the real truth of it. When Starbucks opened up in New York and like I said and I saw, like, coffee wasn't a thing for me at, like, early on, in my teenage years, my early 20s, it really wasn't something, but, like, watching it become, like, kind of culture. When coffee became culture, I'm like, what's the deal with this? Right? And what I realized, it wasn't so much as a external statement, as much as it was the opportunity to press, slow down. And I think that by nature, my, like, my brain is always, like, running at a million miles an hour. And I'm always, like, hectic and like, taking on, like, way more than my day can consume, right? And just like, dealing with that, having that, like, however short moment, it is of, like, reflection and with. While you sipped your cup of coffee, obviously now a cold, it goes a little quicker. So you need another one. But I think that's, for me, is like, where they started becoming this, like, deep emotional connection to coffee. There's a real inward, personal moment where it just, like, you get to, like, just nurture yourself with a cup of coffee. And I found it very nurturing. And it's like, it wasn't something like. And for me, coffee wasn't a social moment. It was a more personal moment. And, like, it was where I was like, slow down for a second. Help me think about what I wanted to do, you know, work through whatever it is that I need to work through, conquer my day, you know, whichever, Whatever it might have been. And that's like, when I realized the power of coffee. There's a lot of things we do every day, Right. There's very few of them that have such an emotional impact on us. Like coffee.

Yeah, I could not agree more. I mean, even just yesterday, I love doing, like, an annual review, personal, business wise. And, you know, I probably spent four or five hours yesterday going through these, like, seven key questions, you know, doing a personal annual audit. And I can't imagine not doing that without a nice cup of coffee next to me the whole time. And how that enriches, right?

It's like.

Exactly. And it was definitely more than one cop as well. So that's very much so noted there. So I agree. The personal connection there is great.

And that's what really kind of led to this, like, what Cumulus is all about. I mean, you just. You just touched upon that, right? So if the beverage that you prefer the most, if somebody loves cold, whether whatever form it is, whether it's cold brew a nitro, cold brew an ice shaking, espresso, ice latte, whatever it is, right? And you can't. You don't have the ability to have the most perfect form, the most premium form of it in the place where you spend the most time, which is your home. Right? That's crazy. That is crazy, right? Think about, like, and especially, I think the consumer also has learned, has been taught not to settle, whether it's like Sonos Peloton. I mean, the list goes on and on, right? About the amazing quality and access that we have within the four walls of our home. And we did it in hot coffee, right? But we never did it in cold. And I was like, that's crazy. We need to solve that.

Yeah. No, it's given your market understanding. Why do you think that wasn't solved for, in your opinion? Growing up, you see the Keurigs and you always think the Pods, all that stuff was so front and center, at least from my perspective. Why wasn't the cold coffee category, why didn't it catch up until something like Cumulus came out?

My theory, again, it's only my theory, but I think if you think about coffee, it's been an evolutionary process. So take all the legacy coffee companies. All of a sudden cold becomes a thing and they kind of bolted onto their business. I remember back at Starbucks when we started selling cold brew for the first time. I remember when we introduced nitro, it was kind of like an add on, like, oh, let's add on to our core business, let's add this on, let's bolt this on, etc. Etc. Whether it's the other companies that make at home coffee systems or things like that, it's like, okay, now we need to extend our business to do something for coal. But when fundamentally cold is really a completely different product. The analogy I like to use is that Tesla was not the first electric car. Toyota made the Prius before Tesla made the Tesla. The difference between Tesla and Toyota is Tesla was built as an electric car company. Cumulus is crafted for cold from beginning to end. It was everything intentionally done for cold. We weren't trying to accommodate cold. We were like, this is our core identity. We're a cold coffee company. We're not a hot coffee company. People ask me, oh, can you do hot on your machine? I'm like, no, we're a cold coffee company.

Yeah. That level of stance, the Tesla comparison there, like makes so much sense. And I love how you just said that. It's like, we are a cold coffee company. That distinctive, like brand presence, even how it's, you know, how it's shown up online and when I first started coming across it, it's very strong, very known to me and I think it's, it's powerful. So congrats on that for the go ahead.

No, it's just to like when we, what does that actually mean? And like, why would I care? That's crafted for gold. Because if you even think about coffee is an agricultural product, it starts at the farm. There are different farms, different areas of the world produce different types of coffees that taste differently. When you take that coffee off the tree and then you go ahead, it's called the green coffee. And then you roast it. There's different ways of roasting just like there's different ways of cooking. Do you do it low and slow? Do you do it fast? What's your roast curve as it's known in the Industry and then how do you grind it and et cetera. Every single step. When we say crafted for coal is we went all the way back to the farm. We actually tried 350 different coffees before we settled and landed on the egg. And each one was crafted for coal, but it wasn't to the liking until we were like, this is the one, this is the one. And that's. So I think crafted for cold is it's intentionality from the beginning all the way through. Like even our syrup line is designed to dissolve in cold. Normally syrups are very viscous. A hot beverage to dissolve it. So in a cold beverage you have to put extra in because it doesn't dilute well or it doesn't dissolve well. We re engineered and redesigned that as well. So it's like that's what crafted for cold means for us.

Wow. No, that's really cool to hear. And I'm excited, I think the, I'm getting the syrups today. So excited to try those out. I was going to talk about that in terms of this idea of like vertical integration. Right. Like I, I'm a huge fan of the, the how hard it is to build hardware. Right. Like I've had a handful of different hardware founders on the show, like the founder of whoop and you know, we talk about like how hard hardware is and it's something I just commend you and the team for. But then on top of that I was going to talk about right like the, the line of coffee that you guys have with the product. You know, these are unique pods that are built for the machine. They talk to me about the intricate intricacies of like the whole experience. Right. Because it's not like you guys just have the machine, you have the coffees, you have this whole product line that is the extension of it and would love to hear your thought process on that. You know, from the tech side to the coffee side and how that's changed and grown to what it is today. And just the different mindsets that you have to be in as you're thinking about each. I guess you could call it like pathway in a sense.

Thank you for recognizing that because it is. They are almost like totally different verticals. Right. Like we like to talk about it. It's like art and science, right? The science part, think about the technology and it's all about precise engineering and latest tech. And on the art side it's like the agronomy. It's getting, putting your hands into the soil and understanding, getting the grit under Your fingernails and things like that. So just that like those two worlds coming together, it's very much a very important part of our language, of what we try to do. It's like contrasting that art and science all is one. When, even when you look at our coffees, you look at their packaging. We did that with a watercolor artist. We use coffee as a media. And Joe Henry Baker is his name fantastic artist in Williamsburg, where we commissioned him to design for us using the coffee wheel, the different places in the world where you buy your coffees and their flavor notes, the different rose profiles to create the lane language of our coffee. So, like when you stop and actually think about, like understanding the not competing, but how different these businesses, verticals are within the same business. And the answer is, is that because we have great people on the team, our engineers are like, top notch, top shelf, fantastic. Our coffee people, forget about it. Our marketing, amazing. And when you put all those ingredients together, one of the things we tried to do with the machine is hopefully you recognize is how simple it is. Right. There's only everything's front facing. You add the water, you plop the tank, you put in the water, you pop the capsule in, you turn it, you press the button. That's it. Right. We don't have a touch screen, we don't have an app. Right. We kept this very tactile, really, really simple. Because ultimately Adam, who's our industrial designer, who designed it, was like, as much as I want to be proud of what I've built, what will make me most proud is when the machine disappears, the less it is and the more minimal it is and the less you see of it. Why? Because it's all about the cup of coffee.

I love that. Yeah. I mean, it's the simplicity. You hit it spot on. Like I. My favorite, like the knob on the top, the simple three words, the one button, it. It's so. It's like, you know, people always talk about like that Apple level experience of brand of feeling of unboxing. And I think you guys have done such a great job. At least how I see it in parallel of just like the simplicity. You don't have to, you know, read the manual, understand how to do things. Of course, reading it is great and beneficial and I went through it, but just the simplicity of it is right in front of you. You don't have to ask, you know, how to turn on the iPhone. It's just. It's there and you get to experience it.

Yeah, that was very important to us. It's like we wanted to get you to that coffee as quickly as possible every single time. The fact that we could deliver a great beverage under a minute every single time is, like, the measure of success for us.

Absolutely. No, that's. It's beautiful mash with the time that we have here, I wanted to kind of dive into a lot of founders that listen to this show. And something that I always like to touch on is just like the origin story of the company and when's the right time to raise capital. And obviously, in different businesses, it can be so different for things like hardware, obviously, very capital intensive. Would love to get your thoughts on, like, fundraising process, what you've learned through that with Cumulus, and maybe advice to founders as well when it comes to raising for their venture, whether that's hardware or software or really any business overall. But would love to obviously Celine into your personal experience there.

Wow. Okay. So I think the first thing that is, you know, front and center. Raising money's hard. Raising capital. You went through that process. You know what it's like. Any founder who's listening or struggling with that. It's always a struggle. It's never easy. The people make it sound like it was a walk in the park. It's not a walk in the park. It's just. It's just, you know.

Absolutely.

And I think we can make sound bites and make it sound easy, but it's not. And. And I think that one of the things that I've always been attracted to with certain investors is the ones who say that they invest in the people and that it's. Of course, the business has to make sense, and there has to be opportunity and a moat and a product market fit, ltv, cac, all those good things. But ultimately, when you hear an investor say, for them, it's about partnering with you, the founder. And my advice is always is it has to be a mirror. The exact same way. Right. And as much as, like, the money's there and somebody's willing to put their money where their mouth is and invest in you and believe in you and in the concept, you have to take a hard look as a founder and say an investor is not just somebody who writes a check to a company. They're a partner in your business. They are trusting you to do something that you're setting out to do, which is the success of the business. And you need to look across the table and look at the person and say, is this somebody? Is this a person that I want? And it's hard when somebody has the money and you want that money, you gotta, like. It's hard to look the other way, and you have to have the strength. I'm sorry. It's hard not to look the other way. And you have to have the strength and the fortitude to be discerning. And it's about the people. It's not so much the terms, right. Like, ultimately, you know, think about, like, optimizing for an exit or whatever it is. None of that's important, right? If the business will be successful, it will be successful. And none of that's going to matter. Like this, the that. That's not going to matter. What's going to matter is, is that are you going to be lockstep between the things that work and don't work? Because there's going to be like, you know, it. You're a family. You've spoken to gazillion founders way more than I have. Right. And the one common thing is that, again, outside of sound bites, it's hard. It's hard to build a company. It's hard to run a company. Any job is hard. And there's always setbacks, right? It's just under a magnifying glass when it's a startup. And so you really need to have great people around the table.

Absolutely. No, that's. That's so great to hear. And, you know, hearing that from you, you know, with the time. We have a couple more questions before we wrap up here. Mesh, like we talked about at the beginning, this being launch year, right? It's December 30th of this recording. I just want to hear from you. How does it feel right now? Right. You're about to end the year. You guys launched a handful of months ago. Tell me how you're feeling. The goods, the bads. What have you learned through this launch process?

One of the greatest things that I didn't understand when I was a lot younger was never let the lows be low and never let the highs be high. Right? Learn how to elevate the lows and mute the highs. And I think that is like something that I probably even conceptually did not understand when I first heard it. Right. Especially muting the highs. But ultimately, the thing that I walk away from 2024 with is great satisfaction in knowing that we went from an idea to a project to a company. And everybody that we brought along on this journey, they had some subjectivity, family, people looking for jobs, people on the team, investors, agencies that were working with us, marketing and this and that. Everybody's like. And you hear about how Great you are. But when you're somebody that is out there in the wild, you don't know who they are. They have no reason to be loyal to you, they have no vested interest, and they become obsessed with your product and what you've built. That one message in is what makes it all worthwhile. That one message in and like that is truth. And truth is what we seek. Everything that happened up till now is not truth. You have to discount it. Everybody has some vested interest, but when it's out there and it fits and people want it and they want more of it, that's truth. And truth is beautiful.

That is a powerful, powerful statement. That's beautiful, man. And just hearing that as well, and I'm sitting here on the other side of this as I think back in terms of just, you know, our interactions. I am so obsessed with it. And I've only had the machine for four days. And I'm not just saying that to say that I really do mean it, like from the brand, the product, like it's. I look forward to it so much, the last handful of days in the morning. And I just want to say, like, huge congrats to you and the team. And I'm sure it's just this surreal feeling ending the year, launch year. And I hope to be that sense of truth. You know, I raised my hand and I've reached out and I'm obsessed with it now. Now we're here. It's. It's really. I'm sure that's a great feeling.

Oh, so rewarding, so rewarding.

That is so great. I love it. And something too, just to highlight something that you said about. And then I'll ask a final question here, but something you mentioned about. Don't let the highs get too high, don't get the lows too low. One thing that I love about there was a someone who I admire who unfortunately passed away a handful of years ago. His name was Trevor Moad and he was the brain trainer for Russell Wilson, you know, the football player at quarterback. And he had this book, it was titled Getting to Neutral. And it just kind of hit that nail on the head of in sports or obviously in business as well. It's like you can't let the last play the bads. If you had a bad pass, interception, you can't let that define what's next and what's ahead of you. And the same thing, right? Like you could be up by three, but fourth quarter next, the next plays matter. And don't let the winds get too high. Don't let the lows get too low. I try to live that, like, getting to neutral mentality. And I think it's very on par with, you know, what you described. And I got to give a huge shout out to Trevor, who I just admire his work and someone that I always love bringing up on the show. Whenever I hear something that's congruent with.

That thinking getting to neutral, I'm going to have to look. It sounds like a book I'm going to enjoy reading.

Yeah, he's really great. So. Yeah. Well, last question. Mash. I mean, first off, I appreciate your time immensely here. One thing that I love not only asking, but I think especially for this interview, this time of year, which is just what excites you the most about the year ahead, 2025, the products out there now, I think, you know, and I mentioned it earlier where, like this time of year for me at least is a very, like, introspective reflection time where I try to go very inward. But also we're all goal setting and excited about the future, the New Year's rolling around. So for you personally as well as within the business, like, what excites you the Most moving into 2025?

Great question. I'll answer them both in context of business, on the personal, kind of like soft, like less measurable. But I think very important is the balance of what it takes to be a great leader for the people. And it's about empowering, but at the same time being, you know, council and Sherpa and it's like that balance of all that and getting that right, striking that fine balance, not easy. And that's something that I constantly push myself to, how to help. And ultimately the people around me benefit, the company benefits, we all benefit. It creates a great environment, is how to be the strongest asset for my team as possible and also have the wherewithal to give the direction when needed in a way that's positive and empowering. And I think that's on a personal level. As we're growing the team and things have more and more people interacting with cumulus and with that pride of being, you know, helping author it, you know, to be able to see what 2025 has in store. I think for the, for the business, it's obviously watching people love their coffee, finish their glasses and really understand the breadth of opportunity for cumulus. Like, where does this problem exist that people cannot get great coffee? Is it in their offices, is it in their shops, is it at their golf club, is it at the car dealership? And understanding all that space around where having a great quality cup of cold coffee could fit so nicely there in that moment, and being able to identify that with discipline and be able to share Cumulus with a bigger audience is something I'm really excited about in 25.

I love that. No, it's. That is very exciting. And just before we wrap up here, Mash again, I just want to say, and for people listening, you know, I. I know I've talked a lot about throughout this episode, how I'm the biggest fan. Like, all this is so authentic and real, and I'm just so excited to see, you know, where you and the team continue to grow and to take this. And, you know, I know I've already been recommending it to friends, and I hope if you're listening, you've made it this far. Like, please do take a moment. Check out everything that Mesh and his team have created at Cumulus. I'm going to make sure to link the description down below. And for all future podcast guests that are here recording at the home studio, you know exactly what they're going to be getting when they walk in the door and there's a fresh cup of coffee. So very excited to just continue spreading the word and Mesh again. I appreciate you so much for not only your time, but for creating such an incredible product that genuinely has stemmed so much excitement and, like, refreshing, refreshing feeling for my daily routine. And I want to say thank you for that.

Thank you, Casey. Your. Your. Your. Your passion is contagious. And I walk away from this, this conversation, you're more motivated than ever to keep on working for, for people like you. And thank you for help spreading the word. I think the one last thing I would say is that if you work on having a great inside reality, you need your outside perception to match that. And having people like yourself being advocates for Cumulus means the world to us. So thank you for having us and happy New Year, of course.

Thank you.