Peiman Raf - Co-Founder of MadHappy on The Importance of Mental Health

Welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today we are joined by Payman Raft, the co founder of Madhappy. Thanks so much for coming to the show. Payman.

What's up, Casey? Thank you for having me.

Of course. Thanks so much for being here. So I've been so intrigued by what you and your team has built at Madhappy. I've been seeing the brand for years now, but for those who aren't familiar with Mad Happy, I'd love for you to give just a high level of what you guys built and what the brand stands for overall. Totally.

I mean, to rewind a little bit. We launched this brand, Mad Happy, like five years ago. Just this name that really inspired us, really had this, like, message of optimism in it. And we felt, growing up in la, in New York, just a lot of the brands we grew up with in the streetwear space were super cool but very closed off, dark, negative. And we thought we could create a great brand that was a little more positive, a little more inclusive. And we launched mad happy in 2017, really with the idea of trying to have a brand that really pioneered optimism, more than, you know, the negativity that was going on around that time. And I think people were really looking for something like that. And it really started picking up. And now really the thing became us talking about mental health. And really people were really open to that, you know, and I think there hadn't been a brand before that talked about mental health in that way. And so we've really become that brand.

I love that. You know, I've. Over the years, I've even, like, with my girlfriend Jacqueline and friends of mine, I've always been this, my friends would say, like, delusional optimist, Someone that's always trying to be positive and uplifting. And it just comes natural to me. And I think it's so powerful what you guys are building at Mad Happy. And to just rewind to the name, the branding of Mad Happy, I'd love to dive into that. Why Mad Happy? It's such a polarizing name, right? You have Mad, you have Happy. And it just creates this unique feeling as. As I can say myself when I first saw the brand. And it just really speaks to the volumes of what you guys have built. But where did the name Mad Happy come from? And how did it turn into the idea to start a clothing brand?

Totally. Yeah. It's a funny story. So my brother and my other partner, Mason, had started a brand together in high school. They were super into fashion. And, you know, in la, you can go downtown and figure out how to make anything, basically. So they had, they had started this brand, learned a lot, sort of that fizzled out. And Mason, who at the time had been my friend for like 10 years, really grew up struggling with his mental health a lot. You know, didn't know his biological dad growing up and just dealt with a lot of early life challenges and was in therapy since he was 6 or 7. And sort of in a low moment had just thought of this name Mad Happy and he actually texted it to someone like, I'm Mad Happy for you, you know, and it kind of sparked something in head. Told that name to my brother. They both really loved it. Just what that could mean, you know, like, like you said, like everyone sees and feels something when they see that name for the first time and it, it invokes different things for different people. But I think we all knew it was something that could be powerful. And we didn't have this grand plan at the beginning, but we were just like, let's put this name out there, let's do apparel. Because that's what they had done in the past. And it felt like a great vessel. And for us, like the name Mad Happy, when you bring those two words together, it's like optimism. But optimism isn't about everything being perfect, but it's like being able to like deal with like the challenges that, that are going to come your way and believing that you'll get through it, you know, and that message is in the name, which I think is very rare for a brand. And I think that's sort of what sparked it early on.

Totally. It's so cool. And you know, I know that it's January 2023. You got, you were just an Aspen for the Mad Happy pop up. Is that right?

Yeah.

Uh, you guys have just, you've done so many incredible collaborations, pop ups and going back to the thesis of the brand of, you know, local optimist and bringing, bringing out this optimistic mentality. How has the business changed over the years and what in your opinion has been some of the most powerful just marketing initiatives outside of the pop ups that have brought you guys to the spotlight across these different collaborations you've done?

Yeah, good question. I think, you know, for us, the name, the name at the beginning was probably the most powerful thing. I think the name really helped spark a lot and that feeling of optimism was very clear since day one. I also think in 2017 when we launched, like no one was doing anything in more physical spaces, you know, and we feel like for Apparel. That was something that was super important, bringing people together in a space, whether it was the pop ups, events, block parties, a bunch of different things we did over the years. And I think that really created this community of these, like what we call local optimists and brought people together. And then I think this movement around mental health really has picked up over the last five, six years. And we were one of the first brands, if not the first to really be talking about mental health in a way of like, oh, it's cool to talk about, you know, And I think it started this wave and trend of like people and celebrities and everyone being more okay to talk about the challenges they face. And you look at what Nike did over the last 50 years with physical health, you know, we think we could do something like that for mental health.

That's powerful. And you know, hearing you talk about that, I. It pops in my mind, right, like talking about this idea of mental health and how it's been such a, like an open conversation over these last five years. You see companies like Calm and you know, partnering with LeBron James and like really making an effort to paint mental health as something very important that we should talk about. I'd love to dive into your journey of mental health, really what it means to you and you know, you're, you're living it and breathing it in the brand. But prior to Mad Happy, I'd love to dive into just what mental health means to you as an individual and what that journey has looked like for you growing up and into the teens and into college and everything that, you know, happens in life.

Totally. For me, I think it's. What's interesting is, yeah, I think when I was growing up, it wasn't something that really people talked about. Like I said, Mason was my first friend that I even knew that like went to therapy, you know, So I didn't really have a relationship with it at all in high school or college. Actually after college, my first job was working in banking in New York. And a few months in, I got pretty sick. I got like, kind of like mono, like symptoms. And I moved home for a little bit and didn't know what I was going to do next, but decided to not go back. That was like the first real hurdle in my life that I felt like, oh, I failed at something, like, what am I going to do? And it was a really like down.

Because you moved back from.

Yeah, moved home. And I was just like, damn, like, I'm not feeling good. I don't know what's wrong. And I'm not working, like, what am I going to do? And it's crazy because if I didn't move home, we would have never started the company. But thank you. That was really my first experience where, you know, I had a downtime for two, three, four months in a row and I think really gave me a lot of perspective and then ended up in us starting Mad Happy. So just crazy timing. And then I think over the years, of course, like startups are very demanding and so I think like mental health is at the forefront of like, you know, there are challenges with it in any company, especially if you're trying to do something as ambitious as we are, you know, others do in their companies. And so I think learned a lot and I think the company sort of forced me to be open about it myself. And then really, you know, I only started therapy like two years ago, but I've gone weekly since then. So I think a lot of, you know, mind opening things through the company.

That's super cool. And I know, like, speaking of going to therapy and you know, I think social media has brought, in my opinion, so many positive things out in the world. Of course you see a lot of negative things out there. But what you guys have done with not only your brand but the podcast and the community that you've created, you guys have created such a, an environment that allows these conversations to be powerful in your community. What, what do you think creates a great community? Because when I think about Mad Happy, I, yes, I think about the brand, but I think about, you know, if I see someone walking down the street wearing Mad Happy, I feel align with maybe their mentality and how they think about the world and you know, maybe, you know, they're a positive person. What creates those core values in Mad Happy? And what do you think about building culture with inside your organization?

Yeah, we got, we got fortunate. I think with apparel you're really lucky because like the brand is worn and so like people, you know, when someone else, you know, supports the brand or supports like the lifestyle or the mindset that like we're going after with optimism and all of those things. So I think in many ways, like you said, like when you see someone wearing it, you kind of like feel this bond with them, like, oh, we relate on this thing. And, and I think that that really has created an environment that's been like super open and created a lot of the community organically. And then I think us doing these physical spaces where people come together and us creating an environment that's like super friendly in Stores and in all environments, I think just continue to add to that. And, and so, you know that that's really what we've tried to do. It hasn't been this like, manufactured thing of like, let's just like build this like, pseudo community or whatever. It's just been like, let's just put great stuff out there and then the right people hopefully are attracted to it and then interact with each other in the world.

I love that. And speaking of just interacting with people, where. Where do you spend your time day to day? I mean, you guys. And this will be what I want to dive into next. But you have three other co founders, right? So there's four of you total. That's in my eyes, such a positive thing. But I remember in a, in a podcast you did with Mark, our buddy from Iconic, and Cole, you talked about there's pros and cons and I'd love to hear how you spend your time and what's it like working with three different co founders.

Yeah, I think, you know, what we spend our time on, what I spend my time on, obviously has changed over the years. Like now the team has grown a bit and, and we've been fortunate to have roles more defined really across organization. And I think that as we've grown, that's become more clear. So. So, you know, I think we're working, I'm primarily working on the business and really like development side of what we're doing, whether that's new retail, new ventures, international things of that soar. My brother Mason are a lot more focused on the, the retail piece, on the design side, the product piece, the, you know, those types of things. So I think it's created a good balance of things and, and we've brought great people into the organization that are great at their lanes, you know, whether it's our CFO or someone in production or merchandising. And so it's allowed us to not have to be so like in the weeds as much as we had to be and just have like the right balance of that.

That. That's so cool. Speaking of these, these different locations, how many pop ups have you guys done to date?

Yeah, we've done like close to 20, which is pretty crazy. Anywhere from like three months long to a year long. And I think initially it was just like based on what was available. And, you know, we felt like it was a great way to get the product and brand out there. And then now we're going to begin rolling out some permanent stores as well. So just a balance of like being in great places at the right times of the year and having some permanent presence in like our biggest markets.

Totally. And I know, like, you know, you have the Grove, Palisades, all these great locations. If there's an entrepreneur out there that's starting a brand that's looking to do pop ups. Right. Maybe they saw Madhappi, they've seen the success of how that's worked for you guys. Of course you can't, you know, duplicate the exact same process. But what's your advice to founders that are looking to start a brand, that are looking to leverage something like a pop up? Because you guys have done it such a unique way and I believe it speaks volumes to the brand itself. So what would your blueprint be if you were to tell another founder, you know, how to go about it and the things to look out for?

Yeah, I think it, it takes a bit of time. So I think you definitely have to be patient and I think you have to find people, whether it's creators, celebrities that have the same values that you're trying to like come out with as a brand and get them the product. You know, not really expect anything early on, but hopefully those people start sharing it, creating content, wearing your product. I think one of the best things about apparel is like, like I said before, like, people wear the product, so it does a lot of the marketing for you.

And then, I mean, you guys have incredible people wearing the product.

Thank you.

Of course.

And so I think like from there, you know, like the next sort of natural step was trying pop ups because we felt like if people ran into the brand and understood the message and saw the product, that, that they would like it, you know, and they would be into it and then they would hopefully share it with someone else and keep that sort of flywheel going of like the more people that wear mad happy every day, hopefully that leads to more people learning about the brand, learning about what we're trying to do. So that's what. That's what my advice would be.

That's awesome. Speaking of different collaborations, like one of the ones that I've loved, Larry David collaboration. How did that one collaboration, how does that happen? What, what do you think about collaborations overall and the importance of them for a brand?

Yeah, I think, you know, for us we did a few early on though that sort of showed us the power of collaborations. And I think we've tried to think more outside the box and then just typical like clothing company with another clothing company collaboration.

Yeah.

And so I think because of that, that's really opened up a lot of avenues for us. Right. Like we did something with Larry and Curb and that was the. Anyone did something with, you know, with that IP in the 15 plus year history of that company. And, and so it was super fun and, and I think just showed us the power that that brands could have. And I think the apparel form, you know, brands that have never put something out on the apparel side, I think it's just like really unique to be the first to do it for sure. That's why we've done a lot of local spots as well. We're the first ones that did the John and Vinny's stuff as well. And it just, it's just fun and very community based. Right. Those communities love that show or those brands and I think it allows us to tap into it in a fun way and tell a cool story.

Absolutely. And speaking of doing something for the first time, that means you have to find a new path, a whole new direction. I would love to dive into, for example, the Larry David collaboration. How does that come about? And just how have you guys managed to nail these collaborations the way you have? Because you're right, like these aren't just the everyday collab that other brands have done. They're one of a kind, they're unique, they're fresh, they're new, and therefore they, they work.

Yeah.

What's been the success of locking in some of these collaborations? I mean, you guys grew up in la, you have an incredible network. I would love to dive into that conversation.

Yeah, I think, I think early on it was more of an outreach thing on our side. And then I think we became known for optimism, we became known for telling great stories around mental health and I think it's really hard to tell an authentic story around that. So, yeah, a lot of brands that are hesitant to do things are, I think more open to working with us on something cool if, you know, if it makes sense and we could tell a story better together than they could on their own. And so I think that opened up a lot of doors, you know, and now we're very fortunate to be able to just work, continue to work with great partners in different places, keep it fun, not. Not take it too seriously and just see what we can do.

That's awesome. Thinking about, you know, you guys have been in this game five plus years now with Mad Happy. You said something earlier that I want to bring up, right? Talking about what Nike did for physical health, you guys want to do for mental health. Very powerful statement. How do you think about the future of Mad Happy. And what does that mean when you say, you know, we want to do what Nike did to physical, but Mad Happy for mental, in terms of, is that different product lines? Like, what does that look like for you? And you know, I'm sure you can't tell everything, but I just, I'd love to hear the, the long term vision of Mad Happy. I know you guys have some, some great partners that we'll dive into in a bit, but like, where do you, how do you think about the future of the company?

Yeah, I think if you think about another good example is like Patagonia and what they've been able to do on the sustainability side? I think so. Earlier last year we pledged like 1% of our sales to, to the Madhappi foundation, which we were also able to launch last year. And I think the idea being one, through our content, through our marketing, just make mental health more part of daily conversation. That's like probably the biggest thing we could do. But then two is like a lot of people are coming to us and saying where can we donate? And I think being able to be a place where people could donate to. And then we, we fund different programs. So we have a project with the University of Pennsylvania, we have one with Vanderbilt University on different, different studies that really focus on bettering the mental health of like our main age demo in the 18 to 34 year old range. So continuing to do things like that. And then over the years as we get exposed to new things, whether it's like the podcast and using that as like a platform to, to talk about mental health. Right. To let celebrities share their story that maybe help someone who's struggling somewhere, you know, anywhere across the world. I think continuing to do more and more things like that is, is, is how we think we'll do it and then we'll learn what works better than others and keep doing that.

That's super cool. And you know, speaking of the podcast, I love the podcast. It's a great. Just how you guys go about it, I think is so unique. What's the experience been of hosting the podcast with the brand and launching that as an extension of the brand? Because I think not only have you guys had incredible guests on, but it's, it's been a vehicle that has done very well and I'd love to hear your experience of starting a podcast within the brand and just what you've learned so far from that experience.

Yeah, I would say podcasts are definitely a lot of work. So, you know, I think it's hard to know how, you know, how much energy and time it takes to really do it well. And I think thankfully I co hosted with Mason, my partner, so sometimes we split up episodes and things like that. But, but I think it's been helpful in that, like, we didn't see a place where those conversations were happening. You know, being able to talk to people about their mental health now, it's like kind of a destination for that for a lot of people. And I think we've enjoyed learning to become better hosts, learning to have different people on the show and just really tell different kinds of stories and, and it's just been fun, you know, we're almost, you know, you know, in a couple months will be two years in and I think it's just like for us, we want to do that as long as we're working on the company, you know, And I think even if one episode just helps one person. Yep, five years from now, like, that's pretty cool. And I think the great part about the podcast medium is like most of these episodes you could listen to whenever, you know, they don't really go out of style and just fun.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've having my show for five years. I feel like the. My approach has always changed slightly, but I. When I interviewed Larry King back in 2019, he always talked about this idea of just being curious and leading with curiosity in every conversation. And that's always been my approach to podcasting. Right. Like diving into the conversation, keeping it very open ended, but making it about business and, you know, the company that we're, that the guest is building. But I think you're right, like the medium is you can listen to this podcast about building a brand and mental health in 10 years. Right. So it's definitely super powerful, for sure.

Totally.

I want to dive into and take a step back into your upbringing here in la. You know, I know you went to Michigan and you've had this incredible ride as a founder, but growing up in la, what were some of the activities you did that, that shaped your mindset on the world early on and, and did you have any, you know, expectation to getting into apparel, you know, as a, as a, as a company one day, or was that completely just a new thought that came into your life?

Yeah, so. So my parents are both from Iran. They immigrated to Italy during the revolution in the 70s. So I was actually born in Italy, moved to LA when I was six. And so growing up, I always had this sort of like feeling like an outsider type because I moved Here and then I didn't speak English when I first moved here and learning that. And I think for me, I always had, like, in just, like, an internal drive. And I was always very curious, like, what you're saying about, like, Larry King. I think for me, it was always just like, learning about different things just to learn, not really like, to do anything at the time. And. And I think, you know, I always had this feeling that I would start something someday, but I didn't really know what that was. And, you know, I think in many ways, like, you can't script, like, starting a company at a specific time. I got very fortunate. We all got fortunate at when Mad Happy started, you know, us being relatively on the younger side, being five, six years in at this point. And so I think a lot of those things really shaped me early on. And then I think basketball, playing basketball competitively, growing up also was just a great lesson for me of just, like, hard work and what it takes and the ups and downs. That's more close to real life than school could ever be. And so a lot of those experiences really shape who I am today.

It's. I always love hearing that, like, speaking of sports and how they relate to anything entrepreneurial, I think it's always. It's so aligned in terms of what you learn. I grew up playing hockey for 10 years, played lacrosse, and then played football in high school until I got injured and was in the neck brace for six months. And that's really what led me down this path of. Of entrepreneurship, this massive negative moment when thinking about. And I'd love to touch on just your health journey overall, when we walked in, for people listening or watching, you pointed out the Ben Greenfield book that I have here. Knowing, you know, playing basketball, taking your health seriously. What does that look like in your life? Right. We talk about mental health. I think for me, a huge part of my mental health is, you know, how I do things physically. And if I go to the gym versus not going to the gym, my mental health is dramatically different in terms of, like, how I treat my day and how I live. What does that look like in your life when it comes to physical health and managing that with a business, a company, and just everyday life?

Yeah, I think, again, like, I think curiosity there for sure is, like, what's. What's taught me the most. So probably starting in college was when I found amazing podcasts where you could learn a lot about health. And I had, I think, one of the first, like, 100 aura rings. Just, like, funny. Funny just like random Things that I would find. Actually, Ben was, like, one of the first people to talk about our rings, really. But I think, you know, got really into that and just learning what worked for me, you know? And of course, like, in a startup, it becomes challenging to have, like, the perfect, you know, health routines alongside trying to build a company and working really hard. But I think trying to find that balance of, like, the minimum time that I'm okay with working out per week. Right. Or. Or. Or using the sauna or using the ice bath, things that obviously I found that, like, really benefit me and. And just make me feel good. And so I think those. The balance of those things. Going to therapy every week, a lot of that has. Has helped me manage what is naturally a very stressful situation in. In trying to run a company.

Totally. No, I mean, I. I have. I've had the ice bath here for the past three months, and just having that a part of my daily routine has been game changer in terms of just how I feel and the benefits that come from it. Have you done a lot of ice baths in your day?

A lot.

Okay. Love to hear that. That is always great. Who are some mentors in your life? When you think about people that have helped you, is there anyone that comes to mind?

I mean, a lot of people. I think the thing that's super underrated is, like, so many people are willing to help, you know, you really just have to ask. So I think I would. I would split it up into two things. One is, like, I've learned so much from people I haven't even met through. Through podcasts or through. Through books. And I think that that's what's amazing about, like, the time we live in today. And then we've been very fortunate to have great investors over the years that, like, you can lean on for different things, you know, And I think that. That the balance of those things has been just amazing, you know, and it's really just about asking for help and. And a lot of people are just super friendly and willing to give it, you know?

Yeah. Speaking of investors, I know LVMH invested into Mad Happy. How did that, you know, come to be? And how has. How has that changed the business? Whether that's from, you know, learning from them and getting access to their resources. And first off, congrats on that. That's huge. So I'd love to dive into that. How did that all happen?

Yeah, I think we had this idea around when we set out to raise a little bit of money in 2019. We didn't really want to go the traditional venture route. We just don't think that really works for apparel. We had seen a lot of examples a few years prior of brands that were great but really raised too much money, tried to grow too fast. And with consumer, especially in apparel, we just don't think that works. And so we had mainly gone like the angel route and then had gotten introduced to lvmh and it wasn't at a stage that really made sense for them, but I think they really believed in what we were doing and was sort of like we were sort of a first of its kind, like working on mental health, optimism, those sorts of things that they're willing to take a little bit more of a risk. Not really in the capital sense, but really in like the brand name and brand connection sense. And I think for us it's been great to have them as partners. And you know, when you think about like long term people that you want to be working with, you know, that, that, that definitely comes to the top of the list. And I think as we continue growing, as we expand into different areas of the world, there's more and more that they could support us with. And we're lucky to have just amazing people on board that really believe in the brand, believe in the mission. And a lot of people became investors by first being customers. And I think that that's an amazing aspect of the brand.

That's awesome. And you know, speaking of just fundraising overall, I would love to kind of paint the picture for founders because I went through my own fundraising journey in 2021 for my tech startup. We raised just over a million dollars and that was my first time raising any type of outside capital. A lot of mainly angels. And you know, it's a, it's a learning experience. And I would love to ask you, what did you learn in the experience of raising capital and what would your advice be to founders? Whether that's in tech or, you know, clothing in your sense when it comes to raising capital, especially in a market like 2023, which, you know, things are changing day by day, what would your advice be?

A few things. One, I think like you, you can do a lot more with a lot less money than you think. You know, I think like over the past two, three years everyone's thought like, oh, I need to raise a huge amount of money to be able to do anything. And I think you look at some of the, the best brands but most successful companies and the amount they raised is a lot smaller than what most brands have been raising. Then I think, like, you know, for us, we were fortunate because we didn't raise until we were about two years in. And so we thought we had a true proof of, like, hey, we think. We really think something's there. I think it's a lot harder if, like, you're trying to raise just to prove something out. And, like, I would. I would ask people to, like, think about what's, like, the smallest version of your company that you could prove out in some way. Obviously, that's not possible with every company, but I do think that you can build something relatively, you know, quickly and efficiently and then really understand what the opportunity is before saying, oh, I need to raise $5 million or I need to raise $10 million. And then I would say, like, if you could only raise 1 million or 2 million, like, make sure that you can still build what you want and get it out there to really prove what it is that, you know, is providing value to people.

Yeah, I love that. Super valuable feedback. I saw this tweet recently because, you know, speaking of the last couple of years, people raising all this money, it's like a lot of founders are desensitized to money, meaning they think, oh, a million, 2 million, like, I can't get anywhere with that. And I love what you said about do more with less. I think that that's a phenomenal mentality to have, especially as an early stage in this different market that is much different than the 20, 20, 21 landscape, for sure. When it comes to working with a team, I'm a huge believer of, you know, the power of a network, meeting great people, like, staying curious in conversation. I want to dive into just networking. You guys have done, as we've talked about previously, so many great collaborations. But growing up in la, what does networking mean to you? And how do you approach networking and meeting great people and eventually doing things with them from a business perspective? I think a lot of young founders that are out there, that a lot of people listen, they always ask. I always get questions on Instagram. It's like, how have you built a network? What's your approach to it? And I'd love to ask you that.

Yeah, I think it goes back to, like, the curiosity thing, just being curious, being willing to, like, learn and. And not really expect anything from other people, you know, Like, I think a lot of people think if they just, you know, if they just message someone one time and they don't reply, you know, like, it's over or something like that. And I think for me, I just. We Always, like, built our relationships for the very long term. So if, you know, we would meet someone, it wasn't about, like, asking them for something right there, but just really building a network, helping them if you can. But not really approaching networking as like, more traditional networking of just like, oh, would love to get on a call, you know, but just like, finding something that provides them value as well, and then just building a real relationship over time. You know, I think time is one of those things that's really important in, like, actually getting to know someone, actually understanding, you know, who someone is. And I think being patient with those things is really important.

Absolutely. For sure. You know, this is a new year, 2023. When you approach just goal setting from a business perspective, from a personal perspective, how do you approach that when it comes to, you know, having a goal, approaching it? Do you journal a lot? I can say I do. That's something that I just. That's a part of my daily routine. What are some daily things that you do that help you stay sharp and, you know, stay focused as a founder and as an individual?

Yeah, on the goal side, I mean, I think for me, I'm always just trying to get, like, you know, 1% better a day, and obviously it's hard to track, but I think what I try to do is, like, for the year ahead, and then each quarter I look at it again, or like, the different buckets, right? Health, work, relationships, and, like, you know, what do I want to improve or build on in that time, you know? You know, I think my therapist, who I think is amazing, you know, he always talks about, like, we're always like, yes, it's good to want to improve, obviously, but it's also like, you're telling your yourself that, like, you're not good enough as you are today. So I think trying to have that balance of, like, understanding that, like, I'm great as I am today and, you know, I'm down to improve in different areas. You know, I think that mindset of not always trying to think about, like, oh, like, I'm not good enough here. I'm not good enough. There really is, you know, it's not helpful if you think about it. And so even for me, you know, I'm someone who, like, is always listening to a podcast, you know, always has something on at all times. You really have to ask yourself, like, you know, why is it? Why can you not stop? You know, like, why can you, you know, why can't I just drive here and not listen to anything? You know, And I think like, that says a lot about someone as well. And so I think trying to learn both sides of it, you know, being content in who you are today, even if there are things you want to work on, like we all do. I think it's more of what I'm trying to, like, cultivate.

That's powerful because I can say I. I fill my time with listening lots of podcasts and just consuming with, you know, things I want to learn about. Speaking of podcasts, do you have any favorites that are important to you that you listen to consistently?

I have a lot.

I would love to hear about them.

Founders David Senra. Have you listened to Amazing Podcast and he's an amazing host. And I mean, I've probably. I only found it like six months ago, but I've probably listened to 100.

Episodes that he's been doing very well. It's a cool format.

Invest like the best. Patrick o'. Shaughnessy. Amazing as well. Peter Tia, Huberman Lab. I mean, I think those are my staples.

I love that.

What about you?

I. Thanks for asking. I would say I have like a three or four, like, main circuit that I love. One is my first million.

Oh, I forgot that one.

Okay. For sure.

I listen to every episode.

Got it, Got it. That was. That's my favorite. I love one that I've sort of listened to more is Rob Dyrdek's podcast Build. With Rob, it's usually just him. He'll bring on guests every now and then, but it's. He's just so sharp in how he optimizes. His day is just phenomenal. I learned a lot from that.

Yeah, he came on the show and just like learning about his, like, I haven't learned.

I haven't listened to that one.

It's pretty insane. You should listen.

Okay.

He was amazing on my first million also, so it's a very similar episode, but he's great for sure.

And then Jay Shetty, he's great. Just right up, you know, up your alley of the brand. Right. Mental health, everything he talks about. Love his show. And I had Jay on back in 2018 and just seeing how he's grown and the conversations he's has on such a wide and public scale is so incredible.

Yeah.

So, yeah, good.

He came on last year as well, and he's just had some amazing, amazing episodes recently. Yeah, he's really been able to grow that. He has a book coming out soon, which is awesome.

And shout out to Jay.

Amazing voice as well, for sure.

So those are couple of my favorites. Got to love the Pods. Speaking of Mad Happy and your experience, right, You've grown so much as a brand, what would your advice be to your younger self starting Mad Happy today based on what you've learned over the years?

I think advice myself would just be. Because it's like my first company, a lot of the experiences you feel for the first time. And so, yeah, you know, every year you're like, you go through things and you're like, damn, like, there's no way we're getting past this obstacle, you know, and then you look back and there are very small obstacles and. But, like, they really just took so much of your, like, energy away. And. And even to this day, you know, I still experience that. Right. Things that just rub me the wrong way or just, like, bother me and just stay on my mind. And I think I've learned that, you know, usually when you look back six months from now, like, none of these problems will, like, matter, you know, and. And all you can do is just, like, keep going. And, like, there's always going to be ups and downs. And I think that's the beauty of, like, a startup and also the beauty of our brand is that it's talking about the ups and downs, and that's really what a startup is. And you have to be, like, willing and able to sustain long periods of times of, like, those swings. You know, I'm almost six years in and. And it hasn't really changed in that sense. And so. So I think, yeah, it's just a long journey. I used to think five years was, like, a good amount of time. Now I think at least 10 years to do anything, so. So it takes a lot of time. And you got lucky. You know, we got lucky that we found something that we loved.

That's awesome. And, you know, I think I've heard this quote. It's like entrepreneurship is chasing the uncertain, chasing uncertainty. When it comes to. When you think about the challenges that you guys have dealt with over the years, are there any moments in particular that stand out to you that, as you said, were challenges that you felt were like, oh, my God, how are we gonna get through this? But then looking back, you can point to and say, wow, like, that was such a small thing in retrospect, but during that moment, it was consuming me because I think having these tangible examples can help people relate to their own lives.

I have a lot, so don't worry. I would say one thing about the uncertain thing that you just said also is, like, usually people who start companies, start companies because, like, they love the control Piece of it, you know, like myself included. So they're actually very bad at dealing with the uncertain. And in startups and in life, like so many things are not certain and you have to be okay and embrace that. And I think that that's something that I've worked on a lot in therapy. I'm definitely not there yet. But that's just a side note, I would say, in terms of big things, I mean, Covid was probably one of the big ones where, you know, no one knew what was going to happen. We thought, are we going to have to, you know, our team was probably like 12, 13, 14 people, but we were like, are we going to have to lay off half the team? Is no one going to buy anything? Our manufacturers going to stop producing stuff? And it was definitely like a crazy three, four, five months at the beginning of COVID But I think we got very fortunate that like, demand went through the roof during that time. I mean, our first curb drop was the day after the lockdown. Wow. Which was insane. And then I would say, like, beyond that, like, you know, having to figure out like, you know, factories were closed, all those things. And you think like, it's over, you know, that's what you think. You're like, we're a small brand, how are we going to like get through this? No one cares about our orders, like all that stuff. But looking back, we made it through and like other problems. You will too.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Covid, specifically too, everything that you just talked about is those are big issues. Right. You're thinking about manufacturers and the world's changing. People are not going out like the pop ups. This formula that was working so well, we can't do them coming out of that now. You know, what, what do you look for when it comes to avoiding problems like that in the future and things to look out for. Right. You couldn't predict Covid. Right. So what are some things that you guys are familiar with that are challenges along the road of this journey that you are, you know, more prepared for now after going through these challenges in the business?

Yeah, I think you, you never want to just like rely on one person or one thing, you know, so whether that's just focus on E Com or just focused on retail or one manufacturer or one area that you produce all your clothes? You know, a lot of people that were only producing in China had a really, really rough time. We were very fortunate that our apparel was all produced here at the time, but we still dealt with challenges because it was all here as well. So you know, I think just being a little bit more diversified in that way, being a little bit smarter about the risk you take on, you know, especially in this uncertain time. It's like our first time now in this environment, dealing within a time that no one knows what's going to happen, no one knows what's going to happen to demand, no one knows what's going to happen to, you know, supply chains. But, but I think all we can do is try to try our best to continue building the brand in, in the way that we know and, you know, see where we get.

Absolutely. And when it comes to the, the team, how big is the team now?

We're like 30, 35.

That's so awesome. What has it been like building a team? And when you're, when you're thinking about culture, what is the internal culture at Mad Happy? I know we talk about the brand overall and, and I just love to hear about some of the internal conversations that happen and, you know, it speaks volumes to the brand itself.

Yeah, I think building a team, building a culture is really hard. You know, I think it's, startups are hard. So you have to find the right people who want to go on a journey. That is tough. It is difficult. You know, and of course, like we're a brand that internally we're always talking in the most optimistic way we can, but also, you know, it's, it, you know, it's not working at Google.

Right.

Like everything's not already figured out. You know, we don't have enough people to do everything we need to do. So it is challenging and it is stressful and trying to find that balance and just trying to be real with everyone. Right. You know, and just, just honest about different things that we go through, different challenges that we have and, and trying to build a great group of people both at like, you know, the VP and, and C level positions to really like, help mentor and grow their teams. And then really younger people who want to build a career, you know, allow them to have the opportunity to do that at our company.

Yeah, that's super cool. And you know, again, I love this idea of what you guys have is this four person, four founder dynamic. I think it's so unique. You don't, you don't come across that often. So what are some of the conversations as founders? Right? Like how do you, how do you guys stay aligned on things? I had a co founder in my company, Media Kits, and I think just the idea of having three other co founders is so unique and different. So how do you Manage founder dynamic and conversations at the. At the founder level.

Yeah, I think. I think four is definitely a lot. I think not something we initially had thought about, but I think through communication, through time, through role clarity, I think it's gone to a much, much better place. And in any partnership, whether it's two people or 10, I think it's just like more communication, more honesty, less like ego, which is a lot easier to say, a lot harder to do, and so always a work in progress for us. And I think each person you add to the mix just makes it more complex. Right. Because there's, you know, double, triple the number of now relationships that have to, like, be kept and maintained and improved on. So.

Yeah, I love that. Speaking of ego, one of my favorite books is Ego is the Enemy. Ryan Holiday. How have you guys suppress that? Right. I think everyone naturally has some type of ego. And thinking about it in a business environment, you can't let that control you at all. What's your advice to leaders that may not be able to go through that so easily like you guys have when it comes to communication and some of the truth that need to be spoken about in business?

Yeah. What? Well, I wouldn't say that we've gone through it easily, but. But what I would say is like, you know, there's a balance. You know, ego is like a form of identity, you know, So I think I don't like, prescribe to the belief that, like, you have to have like, no identity and fully, like, you know, be floating, you know, I think that identity is an important part for everyone to feel like they're part of something, to feel like they know who they are. So I think it's just about finding where each person is their best. Yeah. And then, you know, things fluctuate at times. You know, I probably, like, my identity was out of whack with like, you know, my role and, and what I felt and blah, blah, blah. And I think just about talking about it both in the partnership, both with, like, the relationships I have outside of work, my therapist and, you know, working on improving that over time. That's really all you can do.

Absolutely. A couple more questions before we wrap up. Amen. Looking at the future of Mad Happy, what excites you for this year ahead? Things that you can talk about that are just something that you know, like, what's exciting this year that you're pumped about.

Definitely. So a few things. I mean, one is really excited to continue building the podcast. We think it's become a great, just different avenue of what we're doing and really a lot more mass. Able to reach so many people and really fun. So we're going to keep building that. Two is we're opening our first permanent store actually in la. So that'll have been around June. Really excited about that. There's going to be a bunch of cool stuff that goes with it. A space that people can visit a lot and feels different and fun and inviting. And then lastly, I think just continuing to expand where the brand can, can be seen, can be bought, can be interacted with in the US and and overseas. So excited for that.

Very, very exciting. Do you speaking of the location, is it public yet as to where I'll be in LA or just la?

We haven't announced it yet but. But pretty similar to our other locations. So like in the Melrose area.

Very cool. Well, I'm super excited for you and the whole team.

Thank you.

Last thing before we wrap up, where is the best place where everyone can listen to podcasts, follow the brand, learn more about the jobs and follow you as well?

Totally. So at Mad Happy on Instagram, at Payment Raf on Instagram and Twitter for me and then madhappypodcast.com that'll link you to anything you you need to to listen on the on the player of your choice. So come check us out.

I appreciate it, Pam, and thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know this was a powerful conversation for me and I think that what you guys are building and the, the impact you're having on the community of mental health and that conversation is so important. So I appreciate everything you're doing.

Yeah, thank you so much. And keep doing what you're doing.

I appreciate it.