Robert Greene - The 48 Laws of Power & The Laws of Human Nature

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Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. On today's episode, we have the one and only Robert Greene. Robert Greene is an American author known for his books on strategy, power and seduction. He has written six international bestsellers including the 48 Laws of Power, the Art of Seduction, the 33 Strategies of War, the 50th Law with rapper 50 Cent Mastery and the Laws of Human Nature. This was one of the most profound conversations I've ever had and I truly know that it will impact you for the rest of your life. So that being said, make sure you share this episode with a friend. Let me know what you think and enjoy the episode.

What's going on, everyone? Casey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. Today I'm very honored to have Robert Greene on the show with us. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Robert.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Casey. Absolutely.

So I number one, I'm a fan of all of your work, but I want to start off this interview just talking about what's happening right now in society with coronavirus and how people are responding to this type of news. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on just the human behavior side of what you believe is going on and give us your thoughts as someone that understands human nature.

Well, I mean, the problem that we have is that we're not designed for dealing with really vague forms of fear, where things are really uncertain, where we don't know who could be contaminating us, what places, if we go to the bank or the pharmacy, what might happen to us. And we're very uncertain about the future, about our careers, or about where our jobs, et cetera. And that is that it creates incredible amount of stress for a human being because we tend to our minds become absorbed by things that we can't really control. And it becomes a kind of an obsessional thought process where we're worrying about things that. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. We're just getting some tea here. And we're worrying about things that are just, you know, out there that we don't really. We don't really understand. And so, you know what, if you're the kind of person that is reading a lot of, you know, the news, following the news regularly, particularly broadcast news, or if you're following things on social media a lot, it's only kind of feeding this kind of uncertainty that we're all feeling right now. And you're making things worse for yourself. And so I'm trying to say that this is a time where you're forced to be on your own. You're forced to, like, look at yourself in the mirror. And the first thing that we tend to do when we're in those circumstances is we look for distractions. We look for something outside of ourself. And this is a moment where you can actually work on yourself and make it productive. Time. I have a thing in my first book, the 48 Laws of Power, where I compare dead time and alive time. And dead time is where you're just merely trying to pass the time, watching television or distracting yourself or online porn or whatever it is that you're using. And alive time is where you're actually doing something that's your own, that's come from within. You're reading books, you're working on yourself, you're writing a journal. You're looking at yourself. And what I'm trying to tell people what they need to do now is. Is to. This is like a laboratory that's going on for social behavior, a giant worldwide laboratory. And this is a perfect time to look at yourself and look at how you're responding and see if it's. If it's kind of feeding the worst parts of yourself. This is a time where you can actually begin to analyze your own emotions, think about them, write them down, maybe even talk to them about people, other people, and to get a bit of control over yourself. Because once this. What I'm worried about is this is going to develop a kind of pattern for you where you're going to be carrying this anxiety and this feeling of uncertainty and this fear with you once the crisis is over. And it's going to make you very conservative and very cautious and worried about things that you don't need to be worried about. So you have to be very careful about this. And you need to be looking inward and seeing how you're reacting and analyzing it. And, you know, there are other things I can say about what we can do, but, you know, what we're going through on a worldwide basis or where it's coming from is a whole other question we can go into. But essentially this is a time for reflection and actually making it an opportunity to improve yourself in advance, advance, you know, your career or whatever it is.

I know how you brought up 48 laws of power I saw recently, and I wanted to touch on how Drake is going to be turning these into these segmented portions of videos on Quibi. I saw the articles everywhere. I know that you posted about it. Can you tell me more about this and why you decided to turn your work of art into these great pieces of content that people can actually consume in a different way?

Well, people have been approaching me to do a television version of the 48 Walls now for about 15 years or so. And I've had many different versions of it almost. We almost had something done for hbo, but that kind of blew up at the last minute. And basically we've always been looking at how to kind of dramatize the stories in the 48 laws of power and bring it to life and also make it kind of educational. So while you saw these films or these videos, you would be learning about power, but nothing ever quite worked. Hollywood can be an extremely frustrating place where you have meetings after meetings after meetings and nothing ever happens. So I met Drake about four years ago. I think he's a big fan of the 48 laws of power, as are a lot of rappers. I did a book with 50 Cent several years ago and we got along really, really well. We had a great conversation. And then they approached me a couple years later saying that they now have a film division that they've been working on. They partnered with Anonymous Content and I got very excited about his idea. He wanted to just sort of bring the Spirit of the 48 Laws of Power alive in the television medium. He didn't know exactly how to do it, but I liked the spirit of it. I like the fact that he wasn't. He's not very conventional, so he's willing to maybe try something different. And Quibi is a weird thing. It just launched a couple weeks ago or about a week ago. And it's basically a format that's designed for watching videos on your phone or your tablet, but mostly on your phone. And you're seeing things in 10 minute segments. And so they have. They've launched Already kind of dramatic series. What we're going to be trying to do is somehow communicate the spirit of a law, like never outshine the master and dramatize it in that 10 minute format and then kind of have a lesson at the end where you're going to learn something from it. So it's not going to be just a straight video or film, it's a film with kind of a lesson or a moral attached at the end where you learn how you can maybe apply this in your life. We just started working on, so it's a work in progress. But I'm very excited to be, to be associated with Drake because he's someone I respect a lot.

Where did the idea for the 48 come from? And when did you start working, working on the book and how did it develop into the masterpiece in which it is today?

Well, you know, I. I met a man in Italy in 1995. I was on there on a job through a friend, common friend between us, and he's a packager of books, he's like a producer of books. And I had been a struggling writer up until that moment. I was 38 years old, maybe 37, and I worked in Hollywood, I'd worked in journalism, I had many, many different kinds of jobs. I worked in a detective agency, I worked in construction, etc. And I was at a very frustrated point in my life where I was thinking like, maybe I'm never going to make it, maybe I'm never gonna be able to do what I want in life. And we were walking in Venice, Italy, and he asked me if I had any ideas for books. And I don't know, it must have been a good day and I was in a good mood and I kind of improvised this idea about power because this job that we were in in Italy, it was kind of a frustrating place. And it was all politicking, all kind of power games being played and nothing was getting done, which is a lot about how things go on in Italy anyway. And I sort of told him, you know, the things I've witnessed in Hollywood, the things I witnessed here, nothing has really changed. You read about Cesare borgia in the 1600s and the kind of power, really nasty, cruel power, I'm sorry, in the 1500s, power games that he played. It's the same thing going on here in Italy now or in Hollywood. It maybe is a little bit less bloody, but same kind of psychological games are going on. And I gave him an example of a story that I knew about, about Louis XIV and his finance minister and how his finance minister wanted to impress Louis with a great party, with the most amazing party in his honor. And he did this party, and everyone thought it was incredible. But afterwards, the next day, he was arrested and thrown in prison for the rest of his life because he made Louis, the King, feel insecure that maybe he was more popular than the king. He had outshone the master. I said, this is an example of what I mean. And he got very, very excited. He said, this is a book. You have to work on it. So that was just a small little germ. And then I went home to Los Angeles and I worked on. I was desperate, Casey. This was like get rich or die trying. It was either write this book or die trying for me, because I, you know, I wasn't getting any younger. So I was so desperate that I did tons and tons of research and I created this book. You know, it's a very weird book with stories, with images, with things on the margins, etc. And it just sort of all kind of came out of me as if. As if it had been in there for many years and it just wanted to come out. I look back on it, I don't even know exactly how it happened. It just all kind of came together, but it completely changed my life. Wow.

Do you have, like, for example, I have the book here next to me. It's the first six laws on the first page. Are they in a certain order, or how are they laid out?

Well, there was kind of a weak order in that. Law number one was never outshine the master, because that was my first idea. And it's the law that I think most people have always have violated in life. So I sort of started off with the most kind of really basic, elemental things like never outshine the master by Never trust your friends too much and work with your enemies, which is also a very elemental, visceral, kind of powerful law. Excuse me, my phone is kind of falling. And then, you know, conceal your. So the kind of very primal laws in the beginning, but then the order was very loose. I know that Law 24, right in the middle is Play the perfect courtier. I'd always intended that to be, like, in the very middle of the book because it was kind of a turning point between the nasty side that I'm talking about and also the seductive side. And then law 44, the mirror law is 44 because the numbers 44 are like a mirror. And then law 48 about assumed formulas. I wanted that to be the end because I'm just basically saying, don't listen to what I wrote in this book. Just do your own thing. Just be formless. Be like water. Don't actually follow any of these laws. I meant that to be the last law. But everything in between is relatively loose. There's. There's a kind of slight method to it, but mostly it's. It's kind of a loose order.

Can you dive in depth on law number one, which is never outshine the master and what that law means to you?

Well, it's a law I have personally violated myself several times before I wrote the book. Basically, you walk around in life and you don't understand people. You don't understand the people you're dealing with, which is the subject of my last book, the Laws of Human Nature. And because of that, because you don't really know what's going on in the heads of other people, you make terrible mistakes. And one of the mistakes you make in life is, is that you assume that your boss, the person above you, doesn't have any insecurities. You're not aware of their ego and how they are actually worried about themselves, how they are actually insecure. So if you try really, really hard to impress that person, and you try so hard that you do actually really good work, and you actually impress other people around this boss, you're actually making him or her feel very insecure. They're insecure about the fact that you're younger and you might be smarter and have more energy. They're insecure that you might be after your job. They're insecure that you may be more liked than they are in the office or the environment. And you'll never know why, but you'll end up being fired or being placed somewhere else or being ignored or put in a bad position because of their insecurity. But they won't ever admit that. They'll say something else was going on, and you'll cause a lot of pain. Like, you know, I remember I was fired on some jobs where I had done exactly that. I didn't understand why it had happened, and it made me very upset and angry and then very confused. Only later did I realize what I had done. But the idea is you need to be constantly aware of the psychology. Damn this phone. Of the people around you and what is motivating them. And never assume that just because someone is powerful, they don't have an ego. And in my last book, I talked about a classic battle between Jeffrey Katzenberg, who actually is the man. I'm going to take the plug out here, because this Keeps falling down. Wait, I lost. There you go. Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was the founder of Quibi and worked at Disney under Eisner, and Michael Eisner, who was the CEO of Disney back in the 80s and 90s. And Eisner ended up firing Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was by far the most successful producer almost in the history of Hollywood, with a string of great hits in the 80s, because he was more liked and more popular and more successful than Eisner himself. And it's a very strange thing, because Michael Eisner at the time was the most powerful person in Hollywood. Why would he feel insecure? But everybody, everybody in the world has insecurities. Everybody in the world has doubts about themselves. You don't think that your boss has them, but they do. And you have to be doubly careful to not outshine them and trigger those insecurities.

One of my favorite laws I'd love for you. It says, so much depends on education. Guard it with your life. Can you talk to us about the importance of guarding your reputation and how.

People can do that? Well, the thing about human beings is that we are an animal that is gifted with rationality, but we still remain an animal. And the animal part of us is the thing that impresses us the most. Our appearances. How people look, what we see about them. We're not very good at looking beyond the appearances and looking at what's going on underneath. And so your reputation is the first thing that people see, the first thing that they know about you. It precedes you. And if they have an idea that there's something negative about you or something that's not quite right, or that you have these flaws, they're immediately put on the defensive. They're immediately resistant to your influence. Whereas if you walk into a meeting and you have a reputation for being someone who's productive, who gets things done, who's empathetic, even before you say a word, people have dropped their resistance. They're opening up to you. They're listening to you better. So your reputation is something that you can either construct and work on, or you can just leave it alone and let whatever happens happens. That's a very dangerous thing to do. You need to be aware of it, and you need to take control of it. And a lot of things I've noticed that I'm not critical of young people, as you know, I'm very critical of myself as someone who can't figure out how to make Zoom work. But a lot of young people don't realize that what they do on social media leaves a record, leaves a trace that people in the work world are looking at and it reveals something about who they are and it goes and feeds their reputation. So you need to be aware of the fact that everything you do, everything you say, everything you present to the world is creating this image that people have of you. And it's either a negative image or a positive image or neutral. But you need to work on it. You need to be very careful with it. And some of my clients, because I do consulting work, some of the worst things that happen to them is that they have rivals or enemies in the business world or in politics who realize that the best way to attack someone, to bring them down is, is to attack their reputation and make it reveal the fact that they're a hypocrite. They're not who they present, say themselves to be, that there's something wrong about their reputation. And so my advice is never let that happen. Work on it. I say in the book, that's like a treasure that you must guard with your life. And so never assume that people are thinking good things about you. You have to create this reputation, you have to work on it, and you have to be active instead of passive with it. I love that.

How did the 48 laws of power change your life? And how did that success inspire the Art of Seduction and the books to follow?

Well, it completely changed my life because first of all, I was this guy who was living in a one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, you know, and I was kind of struggling. I had to borrow money from my parents to write the treatment for the 48 laws. And then suddenly, you know, I had success. The book, the book didn't completely take off at first it was successful, but it wasn't the huge hit that it turned into. So it was kind of a slow process. But what was good about it for me was that I was older. I was. By the time the book came out, I think I was 39. So I wasn't. If I were in my 20s, it probably would have gone to my head and, you know, I wouldn't have been able to build on it. But I was older and I realized that I had something here that I had to work on and keep working on throughout my life, that it wasn't going to end, that my second book wasn't instantly going to be a success. So it changed me in the fact that first of all, as the book slowly became successful, successful and more popular, people in the hip hop business became interested in it and started quoting it like I remember reading a Jay Z interview in, like, 2001 where he was quoting the 48 laws. And slowly business people, very powerful people, started coming to me for advice. And I've been doing consulting work now for several years, which is a very strange thing because prior to the book, nobody would ever pay me any money to listen to what I had to say. I was just this kid out in Santa Monica. But suddenly the book gave me this credibility. And so that completely changed my life. And then I realized that I had a kind of a format. I've created a style. And my style is my books are brutally realistic. I'm not trying to flatter you, the reader. I'm not trying to tell you everyone's great. I'm not trying to say that you are great. I'm actually saying you're not as great as you think. And people are more manipulative than you think. So I'm like a really tough realist. So I realized that I needed to build on that. So I wanted to write a book on seduction because it's something that's always interested me from when I was in my 20s and I was able to kind of create, use the same style that I built in the 48 laws of power, but different enough so it wasn't just a copy of that. And, you know, I've developed since then a whole system for writing books. But each time I start a new project, I'm always aware that it could be a failure. So I'm always, like, working really, really, really hard to nail it. I do a lot of research. But I'm very, very fortunate person because in this book, the 48 Laws of Power, if it came out today, it wouldn't have had nearly as much success as it did back then because people don't read books as much. It's a very strange book. In the first place. It came out at the right moment. So I'm very lucky to be here talking to Casey Adams at this point.

Thank you, man. I'm curious because I know the 48 laws of power, like you mentioned. It's been quoted by many successful artists and rappers and in the rap community. Are you a hip hop fan or did that come off and you were like, this is interesting, or how did.

You respond to that?

Because I know it's people like, like Jay Z and Kanye west and anyone from Busta Rhymes to Drake to whoever. How did you first respond to this conversation in the hip hop community?

Well, it's a combination of two things. It was a very. It was a Surprise. I never written the book or expected this to happen. I like hip hop. I loved it. I liked it from when I lived in New York in the early 80s. So I was sort of there when hip hop really first took off, and I got very excited about it. I was really back then into Run DMC. I'm talking about the early, early 80s, before most people were even listening to hip hop. I got really into it back then, and then I got really into some of the LA groups in the late 80s, et cetera, and Tupac, et cetera. But I wasn't like a hardcore fan. I was more into like jazz, some of the hard jazz from the 60s and 70s kind of thing. But I liked it. But I've always been extremely interested in African American culture and the literature and the music. So I was much happier that people in hip hop were reading the book than the Wall street executives, to be honest with you. And one of the first person that I met in the hip hop world, I think maybe the first one was Busta Rhymes himself back in like 2003 or 4. He was the first person who wanted to turn the 48 laws of power into a movie or a television show. And I met this guy here in la and, man, was he impressive. I really liked him. What charisma, what power. So I really enjoyed these kind of encounters. And then I met 50 Cent a couple years ago and we really got along well and we ended up doing a book together. But some of my most memorable meetings and encounters and interviews and conversations then with the hip hop people that I've met over the years, including just a couple months ago, I had a really nice conversation with Rick Ross, who I met for the first time. So I'm extremely. I love it. I'm very happy that this happened, but it was never my intention. Okay, very cool.

What's your recent book, the Law of Human Nature. What inspired your most recent book?

What inspired it? Well, you know, I do. As I said, I did a lot of consulting with people who were very powerful in the tech world, in entertainment, in politics, in sports, a lot of people in sports. And I noticed a kind of theme, which was, these are people who were very smart at whatever they did. They were very smart about acting or directing or about being an NBA player, or about politics. But they were really, really weak when it came to understanding other people. They hired the worst kind of manager, the worst kind of business partner, and it was making their life miserable. And they were coming to me for advice about these kind of thorny political issues. I was also receiving a lot of emails from fans who were sort of saying the same thing. And what I was beginning to think of is that we're at a moment in time in history where people are losing this kind of basic social skills. They're losing a sense of how to figure out other people's psychology, but how to listen and observe and pick up the signals that people are constantly sending. And so I was very worried, and I was thinking, this is a skill that people are losing. And it's something I've always had since I was a kid, because I've always. As a writer, I've always been extremely observant of people and always trying to figure them out. That I wanted to write a book that I think would really, really help people understand human behavior on a much higher level. I said earlier, because you don't understand people because you don't know what's going on in their head. They're smiling, they're laughing, they're saying they love your ideas. I love your screenplay, Casey, I love your podcast. But actually, you don't know what's going on behind the mask. They might be thinking, God, I don't really like him so much. He's kind of pretentious, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's got such an ego. You have no idea. And because you're reacting on just what you see and hear, you're making all kinds of mistakes. So I want to tell you, here are the signals that people give off about what's really going on in their head. Here's what their nonverbal behavior, here's the signs of envy, here's the signs of passive aggression, etc. So that you can operate with much greater intelligence and knowledge instead of being in the dark. So that's what kind of motivated the laws of human nature.

Very fascinating. Where does this deep understanding of psychology come from and where did you learn this from? Because I'm, you know, I'm 19 right now, and if I could take.

You're 19?

Yes.

No way.

How did you think I was?

Oh, man, I thought you were in your 20s, like 27 or something. Wow. That's insane. Well, you're probably the youngest person who's ever interviewed me. That's really amazing. Thank you so much. I'm really impressed. Thank you. That's awesome.

Thank you so much, Robert. Just me being 19 and understanding my lack of understanding of human nature and having this conversation. What advice would you give young people who are looking to go about their life to have a more Deep understanding of humans so that they're set up in a way for the rest of their lives.

To understand this well, you first have to be motivated. So, you know, we humans don't do things unless we want to. So if I yell and preach to you to read my book, etc. It won't really have much effect. You have to want to understand people. But part of that is it's the absolute most important skill you can develop in your life. You're in your 19, you're 20, you're about to enter the work world or whatever, and your ability to understand your colleagues, your boss, your audience, the people you're trying to reach, your spouse, your intimate partners, your friends, is so critical. Because think, just think of personally think of all the emotional dramas you've had in your life and how they've weighed you down, the friendships that have split apart, the bad people you hired and the kind of misery that created. You too young for that. But let's say later on, you know, the bad partnerships you failed. You carry these around with you your whole life, like they're on your shoulders and they weigh you down and you're thinking about them constantly. And imagine what your life would be like if you didn't have all these dramas and trauma and friction with people. If you understood them better, you got along better, you're able to appeal to them better. You have an idea you want to sell, like a podcast or a film or a business. And you're able to understand, you know, other people's self interest and what will motivate them. And you're able to get them to finance your projects on a much higher level. Imagine what life would be like. You'd be like floating on air. It'd be so much easier for you, as opposed to all the resistance that people create for you. So the second thing you have to know is this is the most critical life skill that you can develop in your life, for your life, moving forward. It's more important than all the technical knowledge you will ever amass because we are a social animal. And your ability to get along with people will determine how far you can go. The third thing you have to know is you're not observing people on a high enough level. You're not paying attention. You're too self absorbed, you're too immersed in your phone, in your Instagram account, and in your social media. And you're not really looking at people, you're not really listening to them, you're not really understanding their story. It's not a Criticism because it's happening to all of us as we get more and more involved with social media. I mean, it's not a criticism of Generation z or millennials, etc. Because it's happening to all of us. But you want to become, you want to. So being socially aware and having a good sense of psychology and observing people, simply a matter of practice. The more you're around people, the more you observe them, the more you're socializing, the more sensitive you will become to these signs. So my book is going to help you in that sense. It's going to show you what are the signs you need to be paying attention. Most importantly is non verbal behavior. So I give you little exercises in the book. But for example, the next time you're in a social situation with a friend or, or whomever, instead of being hearing that, your own thoughts going round and round and round about what you're gonna do later on that day, about your own insecurities, try and cut that off and for once really, really listen and observe and look at their, not with their just what they're saying, but their tone of voice, their smile, the tension in their face, their body language, you know, all these other indications and try and see if you can learn something and observe something that you never noticed before. And if you can keep doing that on a day by day basis, it becomes like a muscle that you develop a habit and it gets more and more powerful. So I've gotten to the point now I'm not bragging, but because I've been doing this for many years, that I can get an instant read on people just by looking at them. I can get a sense usually in person. I'm not saying I can do this on the phone right now. I can usually get an instant read on their level of confidence, on their level of self belief, on their level, on their character. Almost instantly kind of an intuitive feel because I've been doing it for so long. And that's the power I want you guys out that you guys and women to have out there by practicing, by opening yourself up to this new form of knowledge. Very cool.

If looking back on your life into.

The book, like moving forward with all.

Of the success and not only relationships but impact you had. Where do you channel your creativity on a daily basis, moving into new projects and how do you go about doing that?

Well, the most important thing for creativity is to be excited about what you're doing. So I started a new book which I've started now about almost a year ago. And you know I'm extremely interested in the subject. I'm reading incredibly interesting books, and I don't start the project with an idea of it's got to be this. A, B, C, D. I have an open mind, so every day I'm learning something new and I'm getting excited about it. So if you'd say you want to start a business, this is an example. You have to choose something that interests you, that really hits you in the gut, that hits you in the heart, that appeals to you on a deep level. Of course you want to make money and you want to be successful and you want attention. I don't deny any of those human needs that we all have. But you will not make your business or your podcast or whatever successful unless it's something you genuinely love and enjoy. And that level of enjoyment and interest will show itself in the product. It will show in the attention to detail, in the disciplined approach you have, the fact that you're able to spend 2, 3, 4, 5 years working on one thing to make it great, whereas if you're only doing it for the money, it shows in the fact that it's kind of a soulless project and people will understand that and it won't work as well. So the most important thing to be creative is to choose something that really excites you, that's always excited you, an idea that you've been having for several years. And with that emotional connection, you'll be able to go on for months or years working on it without getting burned out. The second thing is you have to have a sense of discovery. In other words, you have to have an open mind about what you're working on, which is a lot easier when you're 19 or 20. And it's not so easy when you become 30 or 40 or 50, because you get set in your ways. So you want to keep your mind open and fresh and young and always assume that you know the answers. So as you're progressing with your project, you're listening to other people. You're. You're. You're getting ideas from them, and you don't. You let yourself discover new things you hadn't realized before. So when I'm writing my new book, for instance, I have an idea what I want. I have chapters and subjects. But if I read a book that I never thought of as a chapter, an idea, I get so excited, I'm like, wow. It gives me new energy, new spirit for working, for going on further. So keeping your mind open and being excited and emotionally connected to your project will naturally make you more creative.

Very cool. I. I know that you study Zen Buddhism, and I was in one of the biggest Buddhists on the island. It fascinates me. And I'd love for you to dive into not only why you studied that, but what intrigued you to start studying Buddhism.

Well, I remember when I was in college, way back thousand years ago, I was given a book on Zen Buddhism by a philosophy teacher. I got very excited by the ideas. There was something about it, in other words, that appealed to me on a very deep level as someone who was, like, about your age, actually. And what excited me was, first of all, this idea that you could reach a state of enlightenment. I got really excited about that. When you become enlightened, the whole world appears different to you. Suddenly you feel things that nobody else has access to. You're operating on this other level where nothing affects you. You feel calm, everything is exciting. The world appears beautiful and new and fresh. And I got really intensely excited about it. But I also loved the kind of realism that Zen Buddhism has. It's not about a God in the sky that you're trying to worship. Buddha himself is not a God. He's actually a human being that lived and died. But what he created and his idea is eternal. If you absorb his ideas, you become like him. He becomes alive inside of you. As opposed to all of the religion that I'd been brought up. I thought this was really powerful. Basically, I'm someone that's really interested in things that are alive. I hate ideas that feel dead to me. They feel like people are just recycling something that they heard or regurgitated from a professor or a parent. I like things that come from within that give you a sense of wow. You know, it's like an organic process. I'm alive and the thought is alive. And I thought Zen was beautiful for that. And then as I wrote my books, particularly the war book, I got very into samurai mentality and their connection to Zen Buddhism and how Zen can help you conquer your fear of death. So on and on, I'm getting more and more interested in rekindling my youthful interest in. And then about 10, exactly 10 years ago, in August, it'll be about, exactly 10 years, I decided I'm so burdened with so many books I've written, with so many thoughts, I've got to start meditating or I'm going to kill myself. So I started meditating, and as a daily practice, it's now reached. Like I do basically 40 minutes every morning. I made it very rigorous, and it's just the greatest thing that I've ever decided because it's made me calm down. You know, you notice after a while that after meditating for a while that you don't react to things where people get angry and upset and worried. You're just like, oh, man, let it go. It's fine. Don't worry about it. It's a really powerful thing to not have to care so deeply about things in the moment. Doesn't mean you don't care about people, but you don't get so upset and reactive about everything going on in the world. So I love the power it gives me. I love the calmness, and I love the fact that it makes you appreciate life on a much higher level. So I don't care what it is that you. That whatever form it takes for you. But meditation is an incredibly important skill that I would recommend for everyone, Particularly now with all that we're at home, the coronavirus and all the fears that we're dealing with.

I love how you touched on the fear of death and how people bring this up a lot. I'd love to hear your thoughts, not only on death, but on why people fear it.

Well, why people fear it is. I mean, it's kind of obvious why we fear. It's the great unknown. It's like the end of all that we cherish and love about life. We love living. We love seeing the light above us. None of us want to die. But the problem is that it's inevitable it's going to happen. And the fact that you're denying it, that you're turning your back on it, means you're denying life itself. Because life doesn't happen without death. They go together. They are actually the same thing. You're actually, even though you're so young, you're actually carrying death inside of you every day. You are dying. Cells are dying. You're aging. You're going closer and closer and closer. And by denying that and repressing it, not thinking about it, you're not a complete human being. And the other thing is, your fear of death is the source of all of your other little tiny anxieties in life. You don't realize it, but your fear of uncertainty, of what might not, of what might happen tomorrow, is actually a small form of your fear of something much larger, which is death. So, excuse me, I want you to turn that around. And there's actually a really important moment to do that. Now that we're all stuck inside and now that we all have the idea, even if you're young. It can happen. Young people are dying as well. I might be next. It might happen to me tomorrow. Nobody is immune from catching this virus or from having an accident or whatever. And you might think, well, confronting your mortality is very morbid and gloomy. I don't want that. I just want to have sunny, happy, positive thoughts in my life. That's a lot of bullshit, really. Confronting your death is actually a very positive, energizing thing. First of all, it makes you urgent. You realize, I might be 19, but I could die in five years. I better write that book. I better create that business. I better start that podcast now. I don't have endless time. It gives you a sense of urgency and energy. And second of all, it makes you appreciate the things that you see around you. If you thought if you knew that tomorrow you would be dead, believe me, you would look at the world with a much different eyes. You would notice the sky and how beautiful it is. You would notice people and appreciate them more. You'd appreciate your friends more. You'd appreciate just the sound of birds more. Everything would become more vivid. And the point, the thing is, for Casey, for me, it's very personal because you met me and you saw I almost died two years ago. It'll be two years and about five months. I came like an inch from dying because I had a stroke while I was driving my car. If my girlfriend hadn't forced me to pull over and called the ambulance right away, I wouldn't be here talking to you. I'd either be a vegetable or I would be dead. So I came that close. And I was in a coma for a while, and I sensed death inside of me, very present, very real. And one thing that happened to me coming out of it, I'm still, you know, a fairly anxious, neurotic person as I was before, but I've lost my fear of death. I no longer have a fear anymore because I came that close to it. And I realized it's really actually not that bad. It was kind of a pleasant, peaceful thing that was sort of enveloping me. And so now I'm not afraid of it anymore. You know, it's. It's going to come, and that's fine. But confronting your mortality is an incredibly powerful tool for you. And it's the last chapter of my last book. It's called Confront yout Mortality. And it's part of the subject of my next book, actually. So very cool.

I have two more quick questions before we wrap up, and one being you touched on it just the Coronavirus and how you said there's a lifetime, there's dead time, and how there's. Everything's locked down right now. How have you adapted your life to what's happening and where do you see this going?

Well, I mean, one thing I've learned is people are always asking me, what do you think is going to happen this year, this next year, next year? And I'm generally wrong. I'm not Nostradamus. I'm not a good prophet. And I'm very skeptical of people who think that they know what's going to happen tomorrow because things are changing so rapidly. I had no idea. I didn't foresee this. I didn't foresee Joe Biden getting the Democratic nomination. I didn't foresee Trump winning the election four years ago. I've been wrong over and over again. So it's built. Made me very humble and realized that I don't have a crystal ball. But for me personally, I have a rather privileged existence and I realize it. So as a writer, I'm mostly home. I'm mostly quarantining myself in my office, reading books, doing research. The only thing that's changed for me is I used to go out to the gym two or three times a week and go swimming and do weights and things like that. And occasionally I'd go see my mother, and I do socialize. So that stopped. But pretty much my life is 85% the same, you know, and my girlfriend, whom I live with, she works at home, so our lives are basically the same. You know, not much has changed. So it's not a huge adjustment for me. And in fact, I hate to admit it, but in Los Angeles, I have a special bicycle that I can ride. It's a recumbent bike, and I ride way up into the hills in this beautiful park I live next to, and there are no people, and it's so peaceful and beautiful and there are no cars and the air is clear because there's no pollution now. Nobody's driving. It's like, wow, it's so beautiful and peaceful. But then I have to stop myself and go, well, really, Robert, people are really suffering now, so don't tell yourself that you're actually enjoying the peacefulness. But I do like the kind of quiet that's going on. I haven't had to have a major adjustment as far as what's going to happen. You know, the only thing that I'm afraid of is basically the future of our country. And, you know, I always tell people stress and crises in Your personal life reveal who you are, they reveal your real character. Because normally you go around, everything seems good because you're not forced. The fire isn't happening yet, so you can fake it, but when stress happens and failure or death in the family or something happens, then who you really are comes out, right? And we see that in our leaders, etc. I think it's showing the same thing for our country. It's revealing some of our weaknesses, some of the weaknesses in our economy and the incredible inequalities of wealth that we have and the fact that we don't pay any money for our infrastructure, that we're a country that's built right now on borrowing, on credit, huge debt levels among business. I'm very worried about our future. And our economy I feel in our education system kind of sucks compared to other countries. So I'm really worried about our future. And I mean, I could be wrong. As I said, I don't have, I'm not a prophet. But I think this has exposed the fact that we have more fatalities in any country around the world and that we're facing. It's. We're not like South Korea, we're not like Singapore or whatever. It's revealing the fact that something is wrong here with our medical system, our government, our political polarization. So looking a year or two ahead, I'm worried. But on the other hand, these moments are moments of great opportunity. So for people who are young, this could be an incredible turning point. Just as the crash in 1929 for the United States was, this could be a wake up call for your generation where you finally say, we're sick of what America is like right now. We want something new, we want something different, we want a different form of government. You know, this can't go on. And maybe if there's a credible wake up call for people young and old, it could lead to some incredible changes. We get our shit together and in two years things turn around wonderfully. But I'm a little bit worried about the next six months to a year, about some of the weaknesses that this has revealed in our country. That's all.

Last question before we wrap up. Robert. Just if you know you're talking to someone that's 19 right now, starting his.

Journey, still can't believe it.

What advice would you give to yourself at 19 based on what you've learned throughout your life?

Well, people ask me that question. I'm not somebody who like regrets my decisions earlier on. It's easy for me to say because things have ended up Working out pretty well. But basically you have an instinct, you have an intuition about yourself and about your life, about where you were meant to go. Some people listen to that intuition and some people don't. And if you don't listen to it, you're not going to be successful, you're not going to find your path. We all have. I know it sounds kind of New Agey and I'm sorry about that, but we all have a kind of a path in life that is designed for us. It is where our power lies. This was the subject of my fifth book, Mastery. How do you discover that? And that's a book that's the most important that I've written for people who were 19 or 20. And so, you know, I had my own path, which was to become a writer. And that meant wandering around Europe for five years, working in different, all kinds of stupid jobs, working in a hotel, teaching English, working on construction, etc. Trying to write a novel. And it meant, you know, just being a bit of a, kind of a wanderer in life. But I was accumulating skills, I was accumulating writing skills. I was writing every day and I was learning and I was reading a lot of books. So it was a path that at the moment, when I was 19, it might have. Or 20. You don't know what the hell you're doing. You're wrong, you're a loser. Where are you going in life? But from a distance, from 40, 30, 40 years later, I was doing the right thing. Everything was for a purpose. I was following my gut, my intuition about what I was meant to do. I was experimenting, I was having fun, I was learning and I was developing skills. So you have a path in life. And the worst thing you can do is to listen to your parents, is to listen to your friends, is to listen to other people, is to listen to social media about what you should do and about who you should be, instead of listening to yourselves and who you are and what you know about yourself. And I say in Mastery, this is the most important thing for you to realize is your DNA, who is never will be repeated in the history of the universe. There will only be one Casey Adams with your particular DNA, there will only be one Casey Adams that had your parents, that had experiences when you were 4 and 5 years old. Unless you believe in a parallel universe. And so, so you're unique. There's never going to be another you. Why waste that trying to be someone else? Why waste that trying to follow another person's path and listening to what Your parents telling you, casey, you need to become a lawyer. Casey, need to become a doctor. Casey this, that, and the other. No, Mom, Dad, I'm not talking about you personally. There's something else I want in life. I know who I am. I know what I love, what I'm attracted to. So this is the moment when you're 19 or 20. You're. You're either entering university or entering the work world where you have to say that my 20s is like my apprenticeship phase. It's the most important part of your life. It's where everything else will be developed. Your skills, your social intelligence, your sense of who you are. Don't waste them. But also don't just follow. Just try to make money, have some fun and develop some skills and follow interests that excite you, but be very disciplined and have a degree of seriousness. And if you do that, if you follow what I talk about in mastery, in discovering what you were meant to do and going through that apprenticeship phase, I guarantee you by the time you reach the age of 30, something amazing will happen. You will reach a moment where it will all come together. I tell people that the age of 30 is when you're actually at your most creative. Your mind is open, your energy, you've got lots of energy, and you've learned, you've developed some experience and stuff. That's your most right moment. Don't waste that. Make that happen by how you approach your 20s and have some seriousness and develop some skills and discipline, but also have fun. And then when you're 30, an amazing idea will come to you and you'll be as powerful as you are right now.

Wow, that's great, Robert. I just want to say thank you so much for coming on. Where can people stay informed with what you're working on and stay up to date with everything in your life?

Well, I have a website that I've had that Ryan Holiday and I established 15 years ago. We've just kept it. Ryan used to be my apprentice. For those of you who know Ryan Holiday, he was my researcher. He worked for me. Now he's an incredibly famous and powerful writer himself. My website is called powerseductionandwar.com the and is spelled out powerseductionandwar.com and there you'll find links to my Twitter, to my Instagram account where you found me, to Facebook and to all of my books. We might be developing a new website, especially now with the television series, but that's for now where you can. And you can also email me. So that's the best place to go.

Everyone listening? Make sure you go follow Robert and haven't already check out all of his amazing books. And that being said, thanks so much for coming on the show, Robert.

Thank you so much for having me, Casey. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Monarch Legacy of Monsters An Apple original series the world is on fire. I decided to do something about it. On November 17th. This place, it's not ours. Believe me, the most massive event of the year arrives. If you come with me, you'll know everything. I promise.

My God. Go, go.

Go.

Monarch Legacy of monsters streaming November 17th only on Apple TV. Plus.