Trevor Traina - Founder of Kresus & Former US Ambassador to Austria

Welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today I am joined by Trevor Treina, the CEO and founder of Croesus. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Trevor.

Hey, thanks a lot for having me.

Of course. I definitely appreciate you being here today. I know that we got connected through a mutual friend, Kara Swisher, from hint. And when she put me in touch with you and I was able to dive deep into your background, I was definitely inspired by your work. As someone that's built and sold multiple companies and is now working on something very interesting at Croesus, Definitely excited to have you on today. And for those that may not know what Croesus is, I'd love for you to just dive in and tell the people what it is that you're building before we really dive into the story.

Absolutely. So for anyone who's ever either dabbled in some crypto stuff, maybe bought a little cryptocurrency or an NFT or whatever, or been curious about it, like, what's been kind of lacking or missing is a tool simple enough that anyone can use it with confidence and without fear to hold or do anything on the blockchain. And so I launched Croesus as an app. It's in the App Store and also on the Google Shop, Android or iOS. So it's a mobile first thing that allows you to own multiple cryptocurrencies, enjoy them, but that know, extra, extra safe, but also extra, extra simple so that anyone can enjoy it.

Got it. Very cool. Where did this journey for Croesus begin in terms of getting into crypto yourself and then, of course, wanting to go launch a platform in the space. I'm just curious about, you know, the initial idea. I believe that's such a unique time in the founder's journey and especially for someone like yourself that has, again, like I mentioned, built and sold many companies that we'll get into. Why Croesus and why now?

Yeah, you know, Croesus is the sixth company that I founded, and I always found companies in areas where I see either problems or roadblocks for normal consumers or something I can fix or make better. You know, like, I love that, dude. Dyson, you know, is always figuring out how we blow dry our hair better or like, you know, vacuum our rugs or, you know, I love that spirit and, you know, I bring the same sort of attitude to the things that I do. And I was really interested in crypto. I really wanted to participate. I want to buy a little crypto, see what this whole thing was about, maybe hold an nft. And I checked out all these wallets. Wallets are the things you use to access the blockchain. And man, they were complicated. They're like those professional espresso machines you see in stores that you have to go to school for three weeks to figure out how to operate. And I downloaded one and it was like, here are these phrases. You have to write them down, and if you. You forget them, you're locked out forever and we're not liable. And click this to demonstrate we're not responsible. I was like, ah, scary, you know, and so I started to think about it and I was like, you know, probably more people would enjoy dabbling, you know, on the blockchain, having little crypto, trying some stuff, if there was just something simple enough that normal people could figure it out or weren't worried about it. Like, you know, worried about putting something in the wrong place and losing it or sending it to the wrong person and having no recourse or dying and it being lost forever. So I just started with a clean sheet of paper. I was like, what would everyone want? And I invented Croesus. It won't dry your hair, it won't dry your hands, you know, at a rest stop, but pretty much everything else it does from your phone. And it allows anyone to participate in the world of crypto, like, knowing nothing without worrying about passwords or recovery phrases, or you can never get locked out. Everything's figured out for you, and you can do whatever you want.

That's actually very, very interesting. You know, as someone that's dabbled in crypto myself pretty heavily the last couple of years, you know, I remember the first time I understood what a seed phrase was. And you're like, so lost and so just thrown off by what this is. Especially. I think I was 18 years old when I first got into crypto and understood all the different wallets and everything and a cold storage and like, oh, my gosh, this is so different than anything I've ever seen. And I'm young, getting into the world of business, and I'm curious when you went to go think through, how do we remove this necessary step in the process? Where does one begin, from a internal company perspective, to launch something that does not have these typical structures that other crypto companies do. I'm just curious to even understand how you go about that and also some of the feedback that you guys have received, because I'm very curious in it and definitely excited to get your thoughts.

Well, inventing a new product is such a fascinating process, and for Me, it sort of starts with, okay, why would anyone want this? What would it ultimately be useful for, right? And you know, when I, the, the blockchain, most people don't even understand a crypto or the blockchain or all these things. And it's actually not that complicated. The blockchain, which as we refer to it, is really this thing we call a universal ledger, right? And so I always explain it to my mom like this. Like, what if there was a gigantic chalkboard, let's say like a, the biggest accounting firm in London, and anytime any transaction or important thing happens, someone gets up on a ladder and writes it up there where everyone can see it and it can't be denied, refuted, ignored, lost, forgotten or anything. That's the universal ledger. It's that simple. So I was like, well, why is that useful right now? The first use cases are things like cryptocurrency or NFTs, which are things that live on those blockchains. And if it's yours, it's yours. And no one can deny it, everyone can look it up. But in the future, it's going to be useful for lots of other things. Tickets, tickets to events, airline tickets, loyalty points, all your important documents, your birth certificate, your will, your driver's license, financial transactions, all kinds of things will move to the blockchain. And when it does, we're all going to need a tool, a tool to manage our life on the blockchain. So, you know, I sort of started with that futuristic view and then I worked backwards. Okay, so maybe we won't use that for all of it today, but what would you want today and what, what would a normal person want? Because, you know, the, the world of crypto is kind of these like 300,000 crypto bros, you know, who can kind of figure it all out and you know, think that they have all the tools they need. But what they don't realize is, you know, they're kind of brainwashed, right? You know, they, they were early, they were young, they were lucky enough to figure it all out. But a lot of people have been excluded. And the analogy I like is like the days of Web3, these days are kind of like Web1 or the world Wide Web. Before AOL was introduced, you know, before aol, people were using the Internet, but they had to have a local, a local dial up connection, a local isp, a modem prodigy. You know, it was complicated. Could some people do it? Yeah, but most people couldn't. And that's what crypto is like. Today, some people can do it. Most people can't. So I was like, what would be a tool that would be easy? So first of all, no one carries their computer around. With most of these crypto wallets, you need your computer. But we do our business off our phones and our pockets or our purses or our backpacks or wherever they are. Right? So it had to be mobile. Mobile first, multi chain. And then there's all this talk about custodial and non custodial and hot and cold vaults. And a lot of people don't even understand what that means. But it's as simple as custodial ones, they hold and manage it for you. A famous one was called ftx. And what did we learn? Well, guess what? The stuff you thought was safe, they were actually taking it and lending it out to other people and putting it in other places. And you didn't really control it. Right? Not a very good solution. So can't do that. Have to make it non custodial, which means only you control and can touch or move or do anything to it. Right? Because that's the only way to be. And so that was next. But then what about like making it easy? Because, you know, when I talk to people, they were like, I'm terrified of my wallet. I. I'm terrified. You know, I want to send something to Casey. Casey has this 16 digit hexadecimal address and if I send him Bitcoin, it's a different address than if I send him Ethereum. Right? And like, I'm terrified I'm going to send it to a stranger and it'll be lost forever or I'll put it in the wrong wallet. I need one wallet for Ethereum, another wallet for Solana, another wallet for Ripple, and so I just did away with all that. You have one wallet, you keep everything in it. If I send something to Casey, I add Casey within Croesus the way I'd add a friend in WhatsApp. You know, I know it's them. I see their face. I'm sure we're connected. If I send something to you, I see that it actually got to your wallet. I have a receipt that can prove it. We give everyone a web3 name so that you don't have to send it to Hexadecimals. I could send everything to just to your abbreviated name and I'll never get that wrong. So I just went process by process, trying to make it easy.

That's incredible. So you launched this company almost two years ago, I believe, is that right?

Yeah, we're like almost 130 people now and we launched in the App Store in June and we just launched our Android version. So you know, we're around and we're international as well.

Yeah. So 130 people, that's incredible. What has been the growth stages of the business like for you as someone that has built multiple companies, how have you approached building Croesus? For a lot of entrepreneurs out there, right. Maybe they've started, this is their first venture that they're starting. For someone like yourself that's been through the process, what have you done differently at Croesus? From a business fundamental level from getting it up and running to the now scaling to 130 + employees and team members around the globe. I'm just curious to get your thoughts on that in terms of how you've approached that differently in this venture.

Well, you know, the world is different today than it was when I started my first company and when I started my first company, which I sold to Microsoft, you did everything yourself. You had, you had, you had your own servers. They were in a closet in the back of the office. Configure everything and whatever. And we live in a really different world today where everything is in the cloud or, or distributed. And also, you know, there's the, this new paradigm mostly in Asia, which I really like, which is called a super app. And a super app is something where the company kind of does what it does and hopefully it does that well. But then it takes other incredible or best of breed products from elsewhere and integrates them all into one place so that everything is interconnected and, and convenient. And so that's what Croesus is. We're really a super app. And that means that we've built this best of breed wallet that is better than any other wallet on the marketplace, safer and easier. But then we've also integrated stuff that other people provide seamlessly so that for instance, we give you a free web3 domain name. We do that through a wonderful partner of ours called Unstoppable. Unstoppable domains. We let you mint an NFT for free. There's no other wallet that lets you mint. And we give you five free NFTs. And so like you can take a photo of your pet or your family, you can mint it on the blockchain. Now who has ever minted. Do you remember the first time you ever sent an email? I mean, it's kind of a milestone thing. It's simple. It takes like one minute. And we do that through a partner called Polygon and So we've integrated all this stuff. So it, so it's cool and it's easy and it's robust.

That's great. So talk to me about your previous company. I believe that was if Only, which you sold to MasterCard back in 2019. What was if Only, And I know you mentioned also the other company that you sold to Microsoft, but bring us back to the origin of your entrepreneurial journey and walk us through some of the other companies that you've started and how it's led to what now you're doing at Croesus.

Well, so my background is pretty non traditional. So yes, I grew up in Silicon Valley. I'm born and raised in San Francisco. But my, you know, my family, like I had a pretty strong business background. Like some of my antecedents did some pretty incredible things. You know, my, my stepmother ever since I was a kid is the world's bestselling author, Danielle Steele. So I understood the world of entertainment, I understood the world of business. And you know, I studied abroad, I went to grad school abroad. Like I kind of saw the world and did stuff. And then I was getting my MBA and I wanted to start my own company. And based on all that I've seen and everyone I knew and the background of my family, I was like, I just don't want to work for someone else. I want to work. I just don't want to work for someone else. And so I was like, if that's the case, then I'm going to have to start my own thing. So, you know, I always had that mentality. And because I came from an interesting family, I didn't have a fear of failure. I mean, I knew if I really fell flat on my face, I wouldn't at least have to worry about my next meal or where to sleep at night or whatever. Maybe kind of brave, you know, and either brave or foolish, I don't know, because I talk a lot about what it takes to be an entrepreneur and sometimes it's like dangerous to know too much. You know, I realized like when I started my first company, I didn't know anything. I just knew I wanted to do what I wanted to do. Right? And so there's only actually two skills you need to be a good entrepreneur. The first is you have to know how to learn what you need to know when you need to know it, right? It's kind of like just in time. You don't need to know everything. Like, I don't know if you ever saw that movie the Matrix, but I was like, you know, like, suddenly it's like Keanu Reeves is sitting in a helicopter and he needs to download a program to know how to fly a helicopter. That's what it was like when I started my first company. I was like, ah, I need to do this thing. And I don't know, but I'll figure it out, right? So learning how to learn. And then the other thing is just stubbornness, like, because every venture, every entrepreneur hits a wall, like. Or there's like just some, you know, like an immovable object, like a roadblock you can't get around. And it's like, only the people who are too stubborn to fail, who say, I don't quit until I actually walk through this wall, those are the people who succeed. Every one of my five companies I sold, you know, had a. Had an insurmountable problem, and it was just my obdurance, my unwillingness to fail that. That got me through. But my last company was called if only. It was kind of like, would be one you would love in particular, because it was sort of at the moment of the rise of creators. And I looked around and I was like, people have enough. Like, you know, people who are lucky enough to have some extra income, they don't want another wristwatch or another sweater or another handbag or they're looking for something different. Right. They're looking for experience, for stories to tell. And at the same time, there were all these experts out, these creators who had so much to offer but couldn't tap into a market. So I was like, what if I create a place where people who crave great experiences can go, and they can buy an experience instead of a thing or flipping it around? What about people who have something to teach or share or tell? Have a marketplace where they can offer what they. Whatever their skill is. And so we had experiences big and small, but all unique. So unique might have been meeting Madonna or Lady Gaga or ballooning over Mount Everest or a day of tennis with Andre Agassi. Yeah. But small might have been, go to the zoo when it's closed and feed a panda with your kid. Or an expert on chocolate will teach you an hour of chocolate making. Or, wow. So it was large and small. They. They everything helped benefit charities, and we made people happy.

Wow. That's incredible. You sold that to Mastercard in 2019, and you mentioned it, and I'm familiar. So you've sold five companies now to date, Is that right?

So far.

Wow. What have you learned about acquisitions? That if you could go back in time to speaking to young entrepreneurs that are building their companies. Maybe they have acquisition offers. Maybe they want to build a company and get acquired. I know the past 18 months, when I sold my first company last September, I learned so much through that process. Would love to get your thoughts on all things acquisitions because I think it's very rare you hear an entrepreneur that not only has started five companies, but is still that has sold five. And yeah, what's your thoughts on, you know, where do you even start with an acquisition and what has your experience been?

Well, there's a couple, there's a, you know, a couple steps to it, I guess. The first is, I always call it like the train, a test. So the train, a test is growing a company is sort of like inflating a balloon and you want to make it as big, big as possible and tie it off before it pops. Right. So you have to kind of be honest with yourself about can I get more air in this balloon or am I kind of done here? You know, like if I take another, you know, if I take more investment, if I expand, if I hire more people, whatever it is, like am I going places here or is this about it? Right. So starts with kind of an honest conversation with yourself and then you have to look around and say who would be a likely acquirer. Right. So some people are lucky enough to take their company public, but those are rare. Right. And so you have to know what you've got if you think you're going to sell your company, figure out who would want it and why would they want it, and make that list a short list and then reach out. But never like great companies are always bought, never sold. So your company's never for sale. But let's say you approach them about a great partnership and in so doing you describe the synergy so well, so appealingly that they suddenly have the idea they need to buy you. Right. That's kind of the way those things work best. And if it happens, then what you need is two things. You need a senior sponsor for the deal, someone who can make things happen, who has influence. And then you need kind of like a mid level person who's also super bought in and is willing to do the work. And those two have to work together to kind of carry it across the finish line. But there's definitely a way to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. And even just to go deeper in acquisitions, what has been the biggest lesson from doing that? Whether that's timeframe, working with partners, finding the right buyer, or maybe a story that you can reflect on that has impacted you through the process of getting acquired?

Well, first of all, it's about the most harrowing thing possible. The only thing I can remember is I did skydive once and I remember getting ready to fling myself out the door of the airplane. And that was pretty harrowing too. But it's like, you know, you're in this kind of like limbo where you might be about to make a bunch of money and you might be, but a lot of things have to go exactly right. So it's, it's kind of an intriguing moment and inevitably a hundred things will go wrong. Like, you know, when you think everything is smooth, there's always a roadblock or something you forgot. Like in the case of my first company, it was three weeks of like negotiations. It was like lightning fast. And Microsoft wanted to buy us, but they had, they insisted on closing on a certain date. And it turns out I had one big corporate investor that was very bureaucratic and they, you know, didn't like a couple terms of the deal, which they shouldn't have had any problem with, but because they were bureaucratic they did and they refused to waive certain rights. They had like a 15 business day notification on something, you know, like, and, and you know, it was just like literally pulling my hair out, like, couldn't sleep and you know, I, we couldn't tell the employees because if the deal fell through then, you know, they would be dispirited. But Microsoft insisted on it, on interviewing the key employees, so had to come up with a story why Microsoft was interviewing 15 people on the team and which was, you know, like hard. And, and then it turned out the notification period ended the exact day that Microsoft insisted on announcing because the big investor, which was a very, very, very large chip manufacturer based in Northern California, refused to be flexible. And so literally we had our lawyers in Sacramento at the Secretary of State's office and at nine o' clock on the dot, they like raced in the door and filed all the documents because our board would not allow anything to be announced until the deal was final. And then like 30 minutes later, Bill Gates got on stage in San Francisco with me sitting at the front of the audience and announced the acquisition. And it's like, it was a wonderful thing, but literally like it took years off my life. I mean, I definitely was day drinking and it was tough.

Wow, that is such a story. It makes me, I'm visualizing you sitting down in this auditorium, whatever it may be. Bill Gates is on stage and announces the acquisition. How do you describe what you felt in that moment, considering it was not only your first acquisition, but just a very surreal moment that you had to not only make sure everything goes right, but there was a lot that went into it to make that moment happen.

You know, it's the. It's the weirdest thing, but, like, you know, I went to some really good schools and I'd done some really good things, but I'd never actually really, honestly, looking in the mirror, honestly felt like I was applying myself 100%, you know, even. Even through two grad schools. And it was the first time in my life where, with my first company, which was called CompareNet, like, I was giving every single thing I had to give. You know, working from 8am till midnight, seven days a week, like I had nothing else to give. And it was just the craziest feeling when I thought, like, my God, from literally nothing, with no particular skills, you know, I created all these jobs and all this value and, you know, we had like 2 million visits a month, people who were enjoying what we're offering. And it was just the most surreal experience. And it was like, kind of like an embodiment of the American dream. It was like I had no right and no business to think I could have just pulled that off. But somehow I did, you know, and as a, like, delicious epigraph to the whole thing, like, two days later, apparently the largest chip manufacturing company hadn't read the Wall Street Journal, and I got a call from the controller saying, well, you know, we've maybe worked out a compromise, you know, on this waiver of notification thing. And I actually had him on speakerphone with my co founder. And I was like, I'm terribly sorry, but we no longer own the company. Feel free to talk to Microsoft about it because the deal just went through and. And it was like the best feeling.

Yeah, that is incredible. And for those that may not know what CompareNet did, you give us the quick one sentence, just description of the company so people have context there.

It was a simple concept born out of a visit I made to Best Buy one day where I was, like, looking for an electronics product, and I knew what features it should have. And I talked to the sales guy who's wearing this, like, bright red blazer, and I was like, this is what I want. And he couldn't tell me if they carried it, and he couldn't even tell me if that product existed. And I realized all these big electronics companies, they rebrand with different numbers, the same products depending on where you buy it. And I was like, there's got to be a better way. And I was like, what if? What if I created a website where it had all the information on every product and you could compare them by price and feature so you were really sure you were buying the right thing. That was comparative.

Wow, that's incredible. Very cool. What have you learned? Because I'm a firm believer that over the years, and just for context for you, Trevor, I have this trophy right here in the back and if you're watching this video, you'll see it, but it's a neck brace trophy and it's when I spent six months in a neck brace when I was 16 years old, almost paralyzed from a football injury. And it was during this six month period of my life. That was how I describe a very transitional period in my life going from, you know, everything that I've known as an athlete, someone that grew up in Virginia playing hockey, in lacrosse and then football, to then not being able to do any of that or, you know, kind of have the plug pulled from behind you and you have to recreate your identity or reattach yourself to something new. I've found that feeling to be very similar to whether that's selling my last company or just going into a new role or starting a new venture. That feeling of just erasing all of what you've known about yourself and like really embodying this new identity with the project that you're working on. I'm curious to know how you have embodied change when you're going through these transitional times and through acquisitions from, you know, you worked on this project, this company for so long, to then not be a part of it anymore, to then creating something new and to live in that creative field of okay, like, where do I go spend my time? What do I want to go apply myself to now having after having gone through that experience, how do you find creativity in your life and how have you been able to maximize those moments of new things that you were then creating?

Well, you have to really love the process. And starting any kind of a venture is really tricky. So the first moments are just wonderful and delightful. I always say it's like those movies you watch where it's a bunch of people about to sail off on a ship and, you know, they always leave in perfect weather and everyone's waving at the dock and there's like flowers being thrown and, you know, like plenty of food and it's awesome, right? And then it's like you fast forward a number of months later and it's like the sea is Stormy and everyone is nauseated and like you know, holding on to the rail and the boat is rocking and you know, it's always that way. There's always some issue or something. So you have to be hardy to make it through and you have to be resilient and you have to find your inner core of strength and consistency and yet retain your creativity. It's like while you're hiking through the woods you still have to see the whole forest. And so I find you have to sort of nurture opportunities for creativity. And sometimes it is simple as build a 20 minute walk into your day or you're outside and you're breathing some fresh air and you're just away from your computer or meetings or just maximizing chance encounters. It's like there is this sort of metaphysical thing and it's the weirdest thing but it's sort of like the universe really does provide if you are open to it and you're paying attention. I can't tell you how many times like some thing I didn't want to do but decided I should or place I didn't want to go but decided I should led to the very thing I needed in order to survive multiple times. So you have to be open and paying attention. And I find even though I am lucky to be both creative and a business brain, like ideas are always best when they're honed off of feedback. Right. So I like to introduce it to my team and then get their thoughts and factor that in and argue and debate because it often makes the concept better.

Yeah, that's very appreciative of that insight there. And I want to change the conversation a little bit here. I know that. So you were the United States Ambassador to the Republic of Austria, is that correct?

That is very much correct.

Talk to me about a. What that means for people that may not know and what that involved and what that process was like and how you got the opportunity to be that.

Yeah, well, so I mentioned I came from a little bit of an unusual background. Amongst the other things, my grandfather had three ambassador level posts including ambassador to Austria when I was a young boy. And I actually went to Austria, visited him and stayed in what would one day become my residence. And so as far as I know, I think I'm the the first American ever to take his grandparents diplomatic post. And I've always been interested in international relations. I have actually a graduate degree from Oxford and international relations. And you know, you grew up closer to Washington so you maybe, yeah, closer to diplomacy. But most people don't understand, you know, diplomacy or the State Department or foreign ministries of other countries. But, you know, we. America has. Roughly a third of our ambassadors are chosen by the White House. They're called political appointees. And this is a tradition that goes back to the founding of the country. So if you think about Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, you know, several of our founders were our first emissaries. In fact, the Constitution. Constitution only mentions three positions for the executive branch. President, vice president, and emissary, which is what we call ambassador. And early ambassadors had tremendous powers. You could declare war, you could sign a peace treaty, you could sign any treaty because communication was so slow, would take months to get something to Washington and back. And even now, our ambassadors have extraordinary authority. They're almost like the representative of America to any country or organization. And in my case in Austria, I had hundreds of people who worked for me, 13 branches of government who reported to me. And about half of my job was kind of setting strategy and working with my teams, understanding what they needed. And about the other half of the job was being out there, meeting with the leaders of the country, meeting with religious leaders, business leaders, students, traveling the regions, figuring out where we could help each other do more business, be stronger military partners, be cultural partners. And so it was a fascinating opportunity.

Wow, that's such an incredible experience and opportunity that you've been able to experience. Yeah, when it comes to, you know.

I'd done five companies, and I was ready for a change, to start growing in a different way and to have a different kind of experience.

Yeah, absolutely. So you talk about growing up in this very unique household. I love to understand some of the lessons that you've been able to learn from not only parents, but mentor figures in your life early on that have helped shape the way you see the world.

Well, I was just always taught anyone can make a difference, anyone can change things, and to be brave about it. And my parents are also extremely philanthropic, so they're always giving back or volunteering or on the boards of different organizations. And that's also a part of life. But I think the American model works well. When you tap your talents, you tap your skills, you make a difference. Maybe you are successful, and then you take that success and then you use that to make a difference in other ways. You know, that's efficient, and that's what I've always tried to do as well.

Love that. Absolutely. So you're. You're still in SF now, is that correct?

That's right. I live in San Francisco, and that's where Croesus is based. And it's funny because in the web three space or the blockchain space, you know, a lot of these companies are like crypto dudes hiding on Caribbean Islands, avoiding U.S. taxes. Right. And that's kind of no way to be. And it doesn't really inspire a lot of trust. And with Croesus, you know, we're based in California, we have an actual office and a headquarters and 24 hour customer service and a phone number. And you know, if you want to build trust in a long term business, you sort of have to have to do those things.

Absolutely. It's so interesting too because given what crypto has went through the past year, you see these companies, ftx, Celsius, and it creates a lot of fear in people's eyes. And as you just said, being that front facing company that as you said, is not just doing the gray area, Caribbean off the offshore and all that type of stuff. When it comes to the market today for crypto, it's interesting. I had Tyler Winklevoss on the show back in 2021. That was a great episode. Just to dive into everything that he's been doing and obviously his background in crypto. But he was sharing his thoughts on the market then and this was actually late 2020. Coming into 2020. 20, 2021. So very looking back, it turned out to be one of the biggest interviews I've done on a YouTube channel because it was just the timing was there. Right. But I'm curious to get your thoughts on what has happened the past year, how you and your team have adapted to that and where people and what people should be thinking about now that are not only still believers in this technology, but want to continue utilizing it and diving deeper into how it can impact their life, their business and everything that they want it to.

Well, first of all, Tyler is actually one of the investors in Kreesis. So I think it's pretty cool you had him on. And he and his brother are very much visionaries. You know, there's that old adage, you know, like buy low, sell high, but it's often hard to do. Right. So we were, we've just gone through a total craze, like a mania, you know, where NFTs, crypto, all of it, it was like going to the moon and people were throwing their money in. And you could argue that's exactly the wrong time to be investing. You know, when there's a craze when you want to invest is when you know the chips are down and the valuable or the Worthwhile things can be had at a discount. Right? And so, you know, it's not my job to sell crypto. It's not my job to sell NFTs or to give advice. Right? But I would say it's pretty clear there are some things that are very worthwhile and that have a really good reason for existing and are not going to go away. If anything, over time, they're going to have more adoption and more demand. And so if those are things that are interesting to someone, now would be the time to buy them. Right. And you know, like, again, I don't know anything about NFTs, I don't really collect them, but I know there are some really good ones and that they are, are probably way undervalued. It's like, you know, it's. NFTs are not unlike, you know, subway art or graffiti. And everyone was like, who would buy a doodle or a graffiti or whatever. Well, guess what, there was this guy Keith Haring and this guy Banksy, and, you know, there are people who took that art form and really ran with it. And I'm sure the same is happening with NFTs and that there's probably some that will look back and go, oh my God, why didn't I buy it when? Right? So there's for sure opportunities. And soon, I think there's going to be many others. Like I really point to Starbucks. You know, Starbucks has this incredible rewards program called Odyssey where you can collect digital things. It's wildly popular and really well done. Nike has done a whole bunch of very clever and cool things. But a lot of companies have, and there's going to be more and people are going to want a place to keep the things that they've bought or that they've earned and that are theirs. And that's Croesus. Croesus is the wallet, you know, the repository.

Absolutely. That's incredible. And it's so interesting too, because you see one of my buddies who I had on the show back 2021, he was a NFT photographer. His name is Justin Aversano and ended up having him on the show. And he turned out to be one of the most iconic, specifically NFT photographers. He did this whole auction with Christie's and I don't know if you're familiar. Are you familiar with Justin?

I am.

Oh, love that. Do you own any of his pieces? I'm just curious.

Not yet.

Okay.

But I'm gonna make a note.

So, Justin, it's so crazy. Looking back, this was February 2021. He came over to my apartment and literally showed me what an NFT was. And as you said about minting something and remembering what that was or that first email moment. Right. Like, it's. That is the moment I reflect on when he's opening up his laptop and showing me himself, minting his art right on the spot. And seeing that and then reflecting on the journey that he has been on and what he's created has just been absolutely incredible. But it speaks to not only what you said earlier, but the impact of finding true people, true visionaries in the space that are taking it seriously, that are actually utilizing technology for, you know, the right reasons.

So, yeah, you know, like, that's great. Like, if you download the Croesus app, the first thing we show you is a. Not, like, how you can buy crypto or whatever. Yes, we offer you tools that let you do buying and swapping or whatever, but the first thing we show you is just education, how to do stuff, what to know, what to learn. And we show you just a selection of really cool projects that we have nothing to do with. We don't get a commission. We don't. They aren't ours. Like, we'll show you Nike things and whatever. Just stuff to explore. Right. Because we just want, like you said, we want to open people's eyes and just spark their imaginations.

Absolutely. Bring me back to early childhood, Trevor. You know, growing up, what were some of your early ambitions, or just not even ambitions, ideas of how you viewed the world and what you wanted to pursue? You know, coming from your mother, being an incredible author, did you want to go build companies and create products? Or when was the entrepreneurial spirit really just injected into you? And how did you end up finding yourself at a young age to then go pursue that? And what was that process like for you?

I hate to say it, but, yeah, from a very young age, I wanted to be an entrepreneur. My great, great grandfather founded one of America's largest companies, and I sort of studied him and knew about him and. But I was just, you know, the guy who like, entered every contest, you know, because I hoped I could win or like, you know, I was sort of always thinking about stuff and, you know, I tried to be creative but also practical. And I. I was very observational. So I was just, you know, I would talk to my parents, friends, ask them what they did, you know, try to learn about stuff, read or hear people's stories and what. And what, and learn from their stories and be inspired. And as I said, you know, it was frustrating to me because, you know, when I was young, I guess people would say, oh, you're going to be so successful. And I felt like saying, how do you know like. And how it wasn't obvious what I was going to do or how I was going to do it or why I would be successful, only that I wanted to be successful. But I kind of had to figure it out as I went.

Absolutely. And something that I actually you spoke about earlier that I wanted to bring up just. Well, in terms of photography, you collect photographs and I believe you have a very. Just was an honorary advisor to the Fine Arts Museum of San Francisco. Talk to me of that passion of yours and when that was formulated in your life.

I am a big art collector and I have a pretty, pretty comprehensive photography collection. And I originally started loving American art and I really wanted to collect it. And then I just realized it was too expensive and I would never be able to afford the masterpieces. Right. And so. But I liked photography and I realized that I could afford to buy art photographs and that the masterpieces were still pretty much available. You know, they weren't all in museums or. And so I just started doing it and it was colorful and fun and I started to really dork out on different themes. So I collected a lot of the most important female photographers, from Diane Arbus to Cindy Sherman to very contemporary ones as well as I was really interested in the origins of color photography. Like photography used to be like in a ghetto. It was like separate from art. Right. And it was only small black and white prints. But today even the most famous artists, you know, they. Even if they aren't photographers, they still dabble in photography. And how did that happen? And how do we get these large color photographs? And so I collected a lot of the earliest color photography and up to contemporary, and it just allowed me to exercise my curiosity and have some fun.

That's awesome. And understanding that too. I mean, the photo behind you, does that have any significance? Or what is the story there for those that are watching?

All of mine have significance, right? Of course. But one thing I'll say is, like, I'm not the guy who likes a little still life. It's like a bowl of pears or a pipe on a table doesn't cut it for me. I like photography that's about the world that informs me, that challenges me. I like photos where every time I walk by, I look into a little window or I see a different thing that I didn't notice before or there's a bit of a puzzle, something to wonder about, like, I like. I like photos that sort of, you know, and also that just train your eye. Like, every time I look around, I. I see something different because of the. The lenses of all these great photographers who, Who I collect. And so it's. It's always informing my own eye.

Yeah. So the photo behind you, what does that piece represent? I'm curious.

Oh, it's from a theater, and it's just kind of cool. And I'm actually in my office at the Croesus headquarters, the world headquarters, and just sort of something I thought would be fun for here. But, you know, I have very large photographs. I have tiny ones, and I have color ones, and I have black and white ones, and mostly from kind of the mid 20th century to very, very contemporary.

Love that. No, it's super, super interesting to just dive into that whole world and seeing how you've been able to collect over the years and how passionate you are about it, it speaks volumes to what you love to do. So appreciate you sharing all that, the insight there. Trevor, before. A couple more questions before we wrap up. When it comes to just your younger self, if you were to go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice, when it comes to building, starting, growing, and scaling a company, what would be some of the foundational elements that you would want your younger self to. To know?

You know, to be honest, it would be just a lot of small things, you know, because I always had the hunger and I always had the dream and the. And I was always brave, and those were the foundational elements. You know, there's lots of small things. Like, you know, I've never. I've never fired someone, you know, too quickly. You know, like when you have a team and you have a team member, and that team member is in any way taking away from the experience of the whole team, like, I'm always too slow to fire them. Lots of little tips like that. You know, there's fine tuning. Right. But the. The main things I think I. I think I got right, you know?

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, before we wrap up here, what are you most excited about? Looking into the future of what you're building at Croesus and what excites you for the rest of the year and the years beyond.

You know, I've created a lot of useful and cool and fun tools, and they've ultimately found their way into bigger products at bigger companies, and I'm proud of that, and I'm proud of creating jobs. But, you know, I actually feel like I have this insight that other people don't about the blockchain, that it really is going to be ubiquitous. It's going to be like the World Wide Web, where it's going to change everything in ways people really don't realize, and that the tool that people use to enjoy that will change everything. Right. So if you look at Web one or Web two, first it was the browser, then it was the search window or the, or the social Graph. And with Web3, it is the wallet. That's the tool. And so I don't think I've ever had an opportunity to do something so profound that could touch so many people. And, you know, one of my dear friends and great mentors is this guy called Johnny. I've. Johnny was Steve Jobs's partner and built, you know, built many of the most influential Apple products. And, you know, he talks to me about, like, what it's like to think that in over a billion pockets sits an iPhone that he created. Right. And that to me, forget about money or anything like that, like, you know, if you could really have that level of impact, like, wouldn't it be wonderful? You know, and that's, that's what inspires and motivates me. Like I always say, like, you know, I admire many athletes, but the one I admire the most is Arnold Palmer. Because who wouldn't want to be named after the most delicious beverage in the entire world that everyone drinks at their club or whatever. It's like, talk about changing the world, right? And so hopefully Croesus someday will be something that really offers people incredible utility that would be like the best legacy I could ever hope for.

That's a beautiful statement, Trevor. Well, before we wrap up here, I just want to give you the opportunity. So where is the best place for everyone watching or listening to stay connected with you to learn more about Croesus and to most importantly, download the app and take advantage of what you're building.

Yeah. So if you just go to the App Store and just look at the Croesus super app, you know, crypto app. It's spelled just like it sounds, K R E S U S. So you can download it there or in Android. We also have a website that you can check out, croesus.com that has information and updates. So either way, you know, I hope it. I hope it brings a new dimension to people's experiences.

Incredible. Well, Trevor, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know I learned so much and really appreciate you taking the time to be with here with us today.

Well, you were. You were so nice to put up with me. And thank you for inviting me.

Of course.