Tyler Winklevoss - Bitcoin To $500k & The Future of Cryptocurrency

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What is going on everyone? Kasey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. On today's episode we have Tyler Winklevoss here with us. Tyler Winklevoss is an investor, entrepreneur and Olympian. He co founded Winklevoss Capital to support entrepreneurs who have a powerful why. To date, Winklevoss Capital has supported more than 75 startups led by founders with strong conviction and a differentiated point of view. In addition to investing, Tyler co founded Gemini, a crypto platform where he currently serves as the CEO. In 2010, he was depicted in the Oscar winning film the Social Network about the early days of Facebook. In 2019, Tyler's early journey as an investor and entrepreneur in Bitcoin was captured by author Ben Mezrich in Bitcoin Billionaires. On today's podcast, Tyler and I talk about bitcoin. We where it's at, what he thinks about it regarding the future. And this conversation was not only phenomenal, but I learned so much and I know you will as well. So please, before we get started, share this episode with a friend. Tag Tyler Winklevoss and myself on your Instagram story. This is how the podcast grows again. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy today's podcast with the one only, Tyler Winklevoss. All right, what's going on everyone? Kasey Adams here. Welcome back to the Rise of the Young podcast. Today we have Tyler Winklevoss on the show, the co founder of Gemini. Thanks so much for coming on, Tyler.

Hey, thanks for having me, Casey.

So absolutely. Well, I want to bring up first, I know I've been seeing a lot recently how you and your brother have been saying bitcoin is on the trajectory and you've been making the Claim of it going to $500,000 per coin to take it back. When did you first get involved with bitcoin?

So we were, we were on vacation in Ibiza. We were at a day beach party club called Blue Marlin. Some guy came up to us, he recognized us. We had mutual friends in common in New York. And he's like, have you thought about bitcoin? And we're like, what's bitcoin? And we had been athletes since 15 to 30. So we had just retired. We had just opened up our family office from the bus capital. Just got a lease space in New York. So we're going to do angel investing. But we were on vacation in Ibiza. There's not a lot of startup ideas that happen there, but I guess that's how these things work. It's sort of like you can't force finding love or finding your passion. You just have to be aware. Anyway, chance encounter on a beach in Ibiza. We stayed in touch with this guy. We got in contact when we got back to New York. He really wanted us to look at this investment called bitinstant, which helped people buy bitcoin. But to understand whether this company is worthwhile investing, we had to understand what the heck bitcoin was. So that was in the summer of 2012 and Bitcoin was in the high single digits. So we started buying bitcoin. We initially were like, this is either a really big deal, it's just total bullshit. And then we came around to, we started asking questions a lot of people don't do. They just write bitcoin off. So we started asking bitcoiners the hard questions and the answers were great. We always got good answers back. So we came in the side of this is a huge idea. This is Gold 2.0 built for the Internet. So we started buying at about $8 of Bitcoin. So that was back in 2012. Fast forward eight years now and Bitcoin is trading anywhere at $18,000 a coin.

And I know it's just coming to that all time high number. And I wanted to ask you, how is 2020 different than what Bitcoin was in 2017 with it being crossing the all time high mark?

Yeah. So it's very different. So much has happened in three years. Gemini is an exchange custodian that we built. We launched in 2015. It helps you buy, store, buy, sell and store cryptos like bitcoin. Just from that vantage point. Our company has grown so much. We're almost 330 employees.

Wow.

But there's been so many efforts in the space. But this bull run is being led very differently. There's some really legendary investors, for those of you who don't know Google, guys like Paul Tudor Jones, Stan Druckenmiller, these are hedge fund legends. They're taking positions in bitcoin. They're talking about it. They're going on cnbc. We have publicly traded companies that are putting some of their treasury reserves, their cash on their balance sheet into Bitcoin because they're worried about the oncoming inflation for cash. Public companies like MicroStrategy, Jack Dorsey Square have taken huge positions at Bitcoin. So it's really being led quietly in a way, by the most sophisticated investors in the room and really sophisticated publicly traded companies. So it's not the FOMO crowd, it's not the retail crowd. They're still there. But the hype, the overhype of 2017 doesn't feel like it's there. And what these people are seeing and believing, and I've spoken to many of them, is that Bitcoin is Gold 2.0, right? And so it is your protection from inflation. And inflation's happening much because of all the stimulus spending, all the money printing that the US Government, other governments around the world have resorted to to help get economies out of the pandemic. But really the lockdown and the economic demand shock, that's happened. So nobody's buying stuff, nobody's spending. You can't go to a restaurant. So governments are trying, central banks are trying to pump money into the system to keep it afloat, to plug this hole. But what happens is that the dollar supply keeps increasing. The euros, the pounds, whatever. So your dollar used to be a certain percentage of all the dollars in circulation, and now that percentage is a lot lower. And so prices are going up. That's the result of inflation. When you print more money at a faster rate than the economy grows, which means all of your dollars can purchase less. So when you put your values in a dollar, it is actually degrading over time. It's sort of. I think I said this on another podcast, Bryce's podcast. If you have 10 apples and there's 100 apples in total, you've got 10% of the apple supply. All of a sudden you Double that to 200 apples, you have 5% of the apples. So it's just less rare. And so the dollar is becoming, I sort of joke, but it's sort of turning into toilet paper. It's going to depreciate, right? So what people realize is to protect from that depreciation, they put their value into hard money assets with much tighter money supplies, like gold. But gold is actually scarce. The supply is unknown, and people find ways to mine more over time. Whereas bitcoin supply is fixed at 21 million. And that is a really important characteristic because we know how the supply of bitcoin is fixed. There's no technological breakthrough that can increase that. So when you buy a bitcoin and you can buy $100 of Bitcoin, you could buy any fraction of. It's always the same percentage of the entire pie. And in the backdrop of the pandemic, the lockdown, the money printing, there's a term in economics called helicopter money. Everyone in the US got a $1,200 check that just literally came into thin air the way to. And people are, like, scratching that. People are starting to get it. How is it happening? It's actually like the Fed, the Federal Reserve waves a magic wand and it happens. And Deep Forester is saying that feels a little bit like not real, because it's not. And I think that's why bitcoin, it's been a catalyst driver for bitcoin lately.

Totally. And when you say bitcoin is going to be worth $500,000, what do you think needs to happen to go from 20,000 to eventually getting to 500,000?

So I think it's just more time and education and more data points. But how I get to 500,000, it's very simple math. The market cap of gold is 9 trillion. So the entire supply of gold is priced at 9 trillion. If Bitcoin is Gold 2.0 and it disrupts gold, then its market cap also has to be 9 trillion. But today, Bitcoin's market cap is 330 billion. So it's got to increase somewhere like 25 to 30x from here. So put on a 25 to 30x multiple on the price of a bitcoin today, which is, let's say 18,000, 20,000. That easily gets you to $500,000 of Bitcoin. So if we're right that bitcoin is better than gold, and the way we get to that is we look at the characteristics of why people find gold valuable. It's scarce, it's portable, it's divisible. Bitcoin's better than scarce. It's fixed. You can send it like email. You can divide a Bitcoin into 100 million pieces. So across the board, all the reasons why humanity has found Gold valuable for the last multi millennia. Bitcoin beats it. So it should be worth as much or more. And for that to happen, a bitcoin has to be worth $500,000. A bitcoin.

I totally make sense. When it does reach the point when it gets to $500,000 a coin, what does it look like from the consumer behavior? Are people spending it? And how do you think it will be used when it gets to that point?

So that is a great question. A lot of people wonder, do you have to buy things, spend bitcoin, does it have to be used as a currency for it to get there? My answer is no. Nobody buys coffee or goes to McDonald's and buys a Big Mac with gold. Gold, store value. Yeah, it's a store of value. You got it. But one day, a long time ago, before the invention of fiat currency, gold was brought to the market and it was a commodity money. But we recognize it's a better store of value. So if bitcoin just becomes a mature better store of value, I think we see 500,000 a bitcoin. If it's also used as a currency, there's efforts like the Lightning Network and other side chain projects. If you can also use bitcoin as a currency, the value actually goes up much higher. If it can be both a store of value and and a way for a currency to work on the network. There are other instances too where bitcoin itself, the network could be like the substrate of other networks and just the security of it. It would basically become like the digital global reserve currency of all crypto, then it's even higher. So when I say $500,000 of Bitcoin, that's actually the conservative case. It could easily be a lot, a couple times more, or even, or magnitude more. And by the time it gets there, you're never selling your bitcoin. If you need to use fiat or I sort of say cash is trash, you'll just be able to borrow. And today you can borrow off your bitcoin, get the cash, spend it without selling the bitcoin. So I was listening to this podcast and they were joking about like this bitcoin meme of the Matrix. And when bitcoin gets to a million, you won't have to sell it kind of thing. Morpheus and Neo, what happens when it gets to a million? It's like you won't have to sell it anyway. I think we've been hodlers, that's the term for holding since 2012 and I was on CNBC Squawk yesterday morning and the interviewer asked me, seema Moody, she's like, what have you been doing to repair now that Bitcoin's at 18,000? I was like, I've just been hodling. It's just being patient. And I'm going to hodl all the way to 500,000 and I'm going to still hodl, because if I need US dollar shitcoin, I can always find another way to find it. But bitcoin is like a, a multi generational asset. We are at the dawn of something as significant as the Internet itself. The problem with the Internet is that you couldn't buy a piece of it. You could buy a domain name, you could sort of squat, you could get, I don't know, cool.com or podcast.com, even though podcasts weren't a thing back then. But if you knew that they were.

It's funny you say that. I was literally looking up podcast.com yesterday and it was going for like a million dollars. So funny you bring that up, right?

But that's like owning a piece of the Internet. But it was kind of hard. You had to invest on the application, layer the companies on top of it. But wouldn't have been nice to just buy a coin that represented the Internet totally well. Fast forward to 2010, the invention of Bitcoin. You can literally buy a coin, a bitcoin, or a fraction of one that indexes or canvases the entire bitcoin ecosystem without having to pick what company is going to work, whether it's going to be Gemini or Coinbase or, you know, it's sort of like owning a piece of the racetrack without having to bet on which horse is going to win. As long as the races are running, you make some money. And so ether is the same thing for indexing a piece of the Ethereum network, which is a digital or decentralized global computer. A lot of people equate ether to digital oil. So if you want to get into the crypto game, my suggestion is own some bitcoin digital gold and own some Ether digital oil. And with those, you have most of your bases covered.

Love that. And with Ether, I know it's not as talked about in the media, but when it comes to the predictions of where ether can go and how it's utilized and where it could be from a price perspective, what's your thoughts on that? On where ether could go from a place of value?

So I think it's very high in some ways. I haven't done math on that lately. So for disclosure, and we've talked about this before, that we have material stake in Ether as well. Like you mentioned earlier, the media loves Bitcoin because it's easier for consumers or readers to understand that, and they harp on that, and that makes sense. But what's less talked about and less known is that we are huge fans of Ether or Ethereums, if you will, in the slang. Look, I think Ether has tremendous capabilities because Bitcoin is digital gold. It's sort of moving value from A to B. And there doesn't seem to be a huge appetite in the community to. To experiment or sort of screw it up. Right. It's like we've got a good thing going. Let's not run too fast, let's not be too exotic. Whereas Ethereum is like, it's a decentralized operating system. So the promise is that you can create these applications on top of it, permissionless. The same way you could build an application I don't know about anymore, but back in the day you could build a company on top of Facebook. So companies like zynga, which actually IPO'd and was worth, I think at least a billion dollars, was a company built on top of Facebook. So most companies today are built on top of a cloud computing service like Amazon. So you rent space from Jeff Bezos and Amazon. Ethereum is a decentralized Amazon where you can build your applications there and you run the computing power by owning Ether instead of running your credit card through Amazon Cloud AWS Web services, you just pay the network in Ether. It's not centralized, it's not a company. It's decentralized network. And you could create decentralized Twitter on it. You could create decentralized Facebook, decentralized whatever. No one can stop it. No one really controls it. It's owned by the users. That's the beauty of cryptocurrency, is that the value accrues to the people who use the network, not just a few people in a company in Silicon Valley. Ether's got to upgrade. It's moving to eth2. There's some scalability things that it's got to work through. But I'm an optimist and the smartest folks in the room are working on it. If Ether is your global computer in the future, what's that worth? It's got to be a ton, and it's got to be worth as much as digital gold, I would think, maybe more.

Love that. I know that you tweeted earlier, you said the trade of the century is still available. The next few hedge funds who take 100 mil or greater in Bitcoin will become the best investors of their generation. What's your, I would say, thoughts on that on a deeper level when it comes to the type of hedge funds? And why haven't they done that yet? If it's something that could be so simple, the way you make it sound. But what is the drawback from these big hedge funds, you think, on putting $100 million into Bitcoin at its current state?

I think there's no drawback. I think the drawback is not doing it. Why I think there is friction to do it is crypto bitcoin. It's newfangled, it's exotic, it's risky. A lot of people write it off. They don't look closely enough at the legalities of it. The fact that it's been legal since 2015 in the US is like an unknown fact. So a lot of people sort of worry about it. I think also hedge funds generally run out money from other people, so they need to get some sign off, maybe from their investors.

And.

And you can imagine that, like, people who are investing a fair amount of money in hedge funds might be older. What I've noticed a lot is that, like, there's definitely a generational divide between those people who get crypto immediately and don't. I've never met a Gen Z er who's like a skeptic on crypto. They're like, I agree. You guys grow up on the Internet. You go to like, raves and Fortnite, you hang out in the metaverse, you have Xbox, credits, all this stuff. Like, you're like, cash. Why would I ever want that? It's like a vinyl record to you or a CD. Like, I grew up with CDs and tapes. And you guys probably didn't even have that. So you get it, right? But the boomers, they grew up with gold. They grew up before the Internet. And so they're just. And I think what happens is you work your life, you build a career, you climb this mountain, and then all of a sudden the world's like, wait, this mountain's not that relevant anymore. It's over here. And it's very difficult to give up this mountain, walk down, and then to go climb this other one. Especially when you're 50. Not 50, like 60, 65, 70. You're like, wait, but like, my whole life I'm invested here. So you kind of fight against the change in the new. And so when something big like bitcoin comes out and it's like threatening or crypto to disrupt your relevancy, your skills. It's the innovator's dilemma. It's like you develop this core competency, but why would you give up this franchise business? And generally what happens is you sort of ride it out in this slow decline and hopefully you maybe die before it all goes away or. But like, it's very rare for people later on to be so, to disrupt themselves, which is what you have to do as a person to keep growing and what you have to do as a company to keep growing. And the companies who do this the best are the ones that do the best. So Amazon, they talk about being a day one company. Always. They're always day one. It's always the first day because day two is like the beginning of the end totally. And the companies who don't like, they become, you know, they just don't make it. They don't stay relevant. And in tech and in money, the adoption lifecycle curves are moving so fast that your lunch will get eaten in like not that long of time, like five or 10 years. And it's like you're done.

Yeah, 100%. And I think you're so on point with that. Me being, I'm 20 years old, for reference. And when I first heard about crypto in 2017, it was easy for me to adopt and say, okay, this makes sense because, you know, I've had the digital version of cash just on my phone, right? You go to your bank account, you see it's digital and I never. And so to this day, I don't carry cash. So I think you're speaking right to my generation when it comes to the adoption. Similar to social media, right. It was easy for me to get on social media and to start using it when I was 13, 14, but for my parents or grandparents, it's four. They don't get it, they don't understand it. There's, you know, they're on that other mountain, right. And I'd love to talk on that. You know, I, I'm a huge, I guess you could say when the Social Network came out, I was a big fan of the movie. And I want to speak on the transition from being on top of these different mountains, one of them being Facebook in your perspective. And now bitcoin. Early on, just what, what do you think makes you and your brother able to see these cutting edge technologies and, and bringing it all the way back to the early days of Facebook, how were you able to Find yourself in those positions.

Yeah, I mean, so I think curiosity is super key. We also have this value called beginner's mind. One of our values at Gemini is beginner's mind, just always staying a beginner. Because people who are experts, they have assumptions, they have experience, which means they're sort of biased and they have judgments. So when we were starting Gemini, I met with a bunch of people in capital markets to understand exchanges and markets. Three self made billionaires from outside of crypto capital markets basically told us it wasn't that great of an idea. And to their credit, since then, they've sort of said, oh, we were wrong. But the thing is, they knew too much in a way. So in equities, exchanges. So like in equities, when you buy a stock, you have an E trade account with a broker dealer that you place an order, it goes to Nasdaq, which is the matching engine, and then it's cleared by DTC and then it's custody by State Street. In crypto, all those four different businesses are vertically integrated into one. So at Gemini, you open an account, you place an order, it goes to our matching exchange. We clear, we settle, we also custody. So that whole loop in an equities market, which is four different parts, maybe even more, is all one part of Gemini. So we own the full stack. They took their framework from equities and were like, oh. They heard the word exchange or platform or whatever and they're like, oh, well that's not that great. We didn't know what that was. We're just like, how do we make it easy for people to buy, sell and store cryptocurrencies? So I think beginner's mind is huge. Another way of saying that is first principles. You probably hear that a lot if you hang out in Silicon Valley. So coming out things from first principles, being just open minded, curious, and recognizing that the only thing that you can count on in this world is change and how things cycle over. I think those are big things in sort of like being willing to ask the question. Like, we actually were rowers in high school, but there was no rowing team. Um, we got excited or curious about rowing because our next door neighbor was a championship rower, but he went off to boarding school and I stayed local and there was no rowing team and we just asked like, well, we kind of curious people say we'll be good at this sport because we're sort of tall, but we can't try it. And there was plenty of water around and we're like, well, why can't we do this? So we called up, found a rowing club, and we started the team at our high school. And now rowing is a huge sport in the town. We grew up in, Greenwich, Connecticut. Every school, including our high school, our grade school, has a team. You look out in the water, there's 28 boats every morning or every afternoon. When I was growing up, there's, like, one guy who launched this single off of this club. And literally that all changed because two, you know, myself and my brother were, like, crazy enough or, you know, whatever enough to just be like, I want to try rowing. And my mom got on the phone and called around marinas. We found a rowing club, got into Harvard and did well there, and then made the Olympics. And people sort of saw our example and, you know, now it's a huge sport. So, you know, I interviewed Richard Branson a long time ago, a couple years ago. We did a little bit of a limited sort of what you're doing, but we did it serious for a couple episodes. And it was interesting because I asked him about, like, how do you start his, like, playing, you know, the. The playing company, like, Virgin and. And the record company. And literally, like. And he started so many companies. Every company he started, like, basically out of frustration is like, I want to buy this magazine. I don't read this type of magazine, damn it. Like, and no one's building this content, so I'm gonna do that. I want to shop in a record. I want to buy records in a store. And he just. He literally found the pain points in his life that made sense to him. He solved his own local problem. And then, you know, if it. If it. If you're bringing value to yourself, maybe you're bringing value to your friends and maybe their friends. And all of a sudden, you know, an acorn grows, or, you know, acorn grows into a huge tree. And that is really. That's always been our story. We wanted to try the sport of rowing, and we went out and found a way to did it. We didn't accept the fact that our school said, well, this is the menu of sports you have available.

Yep.

And rowing's not on it. I'm sorry, guys. And we just said, okay, we're going to conform and do that. No, you know, f that. Like, yeah, we're going to go out. And we manufactured that sport, that opportunity, which led us to go to the Olympics. So, like, all of these amazing things can happen if you just, like, realize. I think Steve Jobs said this so well, it's a really famous quote like the world that you inherited was built by people no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can shape it and create the world you want. And so few people have the confidence or the experience. We're lucky because our dad's an entrepreneur. So we kind of grew up in that household of someone going out and. And, you know, taking. Taking the bull by the horns. And then with. With Facebook, we wanted to connect with more kids, you know, more students. We were in, you know, Boston at the time. Harvard's located in Cambridge, which is outside of Boston. It's sort of college central for. For students we were coming into. Halfway through our college careers. Everyone's so busy. We just want to connect with people, friends who was coming out. And we developed Harvard Connection, which became Connectu and then Facebook, to solve our own what we wanted to see.

Absolutely.

I guess with cryptocurrency, it was such an exciting idea because bitcoin is really the greatest. Money is the greatest social network of all time. But we bought a lot of early bitcoin on Mount Gox. And for people who don't know, that was one of the first biggest bitcoin exchanges. But it was hacked. It was super scary experience run in Japan by two Frenchmen in Japan. And so we wanted to make that experience better. We had to jump through hoops of fire, postulate documents, wire money into Japan. It was really murky and sketchy, and we're like, if bitcoin's going to work, if our investment is going to pay off, it cannot look like this. It's got to be as easy as Gmail or something that my mom can use. And so that birthed Gemini.

Yeah, I love that. So when you were buying Bitcoin at $7, there was no easy Gemini platforms out there. Like you said, it was sort of hard to buy bitcoin. And you guys have solved that problem in such an effortless way.

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I mean, believe it or not, there was like, no app. And maybe I'm dating myself because I know a lot of gen zers don't own a laptop, don't even own a computer. Their computer is their phone, which is great. But, like, yeah, you go to this website, Super Sketchy Gemini, we solve that. We have apps for both Apple and Android, and there's other people out there doing it too. But that's really important to mainstreaming crypto, to making it safe, easy, reliable, because people read these headlines and they get totally spooked. You know, it's like, oh, it's for drug people and illicit, and you can get hacked and lose your bitcoin. But Gemini's never had an incident. We've never lost anybody's bitcoin. And there's other exchanges out there, too, that have been incident free, so. But that wasn't the state where we got there. And whenever you're satisfied, you're frustrated with something and you're passionate about it, you can really bring those things together to build the change you want. And I think there's another saying. I'll leave you sort of, kind of close. The topic on this is sort of like when hard work meets opportunity. You don't know when opportunities are going to come around the corner. I know a lot of Olympians that actually didn't make the Olympic team. They were alternates. They're the spares. And if everything goes well, they never take a stroke in the Olympics, they get to be called Olympic athletes, but they're not. They're not racing. Yeah, but what happens, and this is how the world works, right, is sometimes someone gets injured, they get sick, and those alternates have to be called in to race in the eight boat. And there are situations, there are many examples of those boats actually winning medals, even gold medals. So imagine you work all your life years to make the Olympic team. How disappointing it is to fall quite short and go, but not be an athlete. But because an opportunity is serendipitous, and that's the world is capricious. Race day comes, you get tapped, called in, and you leave an Olympic gold medalist. So you never know when it's going to happen. It can be on a beach in Ibiza. Just be aware, work hard, do your work, and be open to the whisper of the opportunity, because it rarely is so obvious. You got to create the space and really tune yourself to the world around you. And then you'll start finding that. And, you know, I think there's people who really perfect that. And it's not a coincidence that they keep doing this just like guys like Elon Musk. It's not luck. It cannot be luck when you do it.

Absolutely not.

There are some people who get lucky, you know, but not him.

Totally. Last thing before we wrap up, Tyler. I know that I read somewhere when the book Bitcoin Billionaires came out, I believe Bitcoin was $3,000 a coin back then. And now, like you said, there. There's opportunity where, if someone's listening to this in 2020, bitcoins, right around 18, 20,000. And then when someone listens to this in the year 2030, they'll look back and have that sense of regret. Right. But if you were to give just one last piece of information about what you're excited about going into 2021 in this new decade, what would that be, what would that be? And what would you want to leave somebody with?

I think this decade will be the decade of crypto. I think bitcoin and ether are two of the most exciting ones. There's this movement called decentralized finance. It's happening on Ethereum. There's other projects. I would say if you're a gen zer, especially like understand crypto, it is here to say it's going to re architect the Internet, financial services, money. It's super exciting. I think the more you understand it, the more you understand how to do things like code and interact with machines, the more opportunity you're going to have in your career down the road. So I think it's really easy to get distracted. But even a small little investment really focuses you to learn about these things. So that's what I'm putting dedicating all of my time and my life to for at least the next decade is just crypto and helping build that future. So I would sort of leave also with the ultimate skill. Like, yes, it's great to learn about bitcoin and ether and stuff, but even going a level up, I would say the ultimate skill, the meta skill, is reading. I read this blog recently that 30 minutes of reading a day, even if you're a slow reader, if you do that every day, you will read 50 books a year, which is a lot.

Wow.

And most people make the mistake of like, oh, I need all this time and I'm going to be on vacation and on a beach before I start reading. And then all of a sudden your boss calls and they don't chunk things enough. You know, they're like, I need hours or two hours or whatever. But you 10 minutes, couple times a day, 30 minutes a day, you'll read 50 books a year. In 10 years it's 500 books. You could be one of the most well read people on the earth. You will learn so much, whether it's crypto, entrepreneurship, about life. And that's the ultimate meta skill. If you can get into reading and learning and diving deep, you will see the world like the people you really aspire to. You'll know as much as I do, you'll see as much as I see. And then you go, going back to like Elon Musk. Then all of a sudden Your success is just not luck. You make it, you control it, you put in the work. And it's really comforting to know that it's sort of in your hands. But. But time is the only thing we have. If I say I have bitcoin, it means I have time. Because when we're all dead, we have nothing, right? So your time is your precious, most precious asset. We're all investors. We don't know. Some of us don't. But how we invest and use our time is our precious asset, determines what comes out the other side. So those are my parting words of wisdom.

Love that. And before we wrap up, where is the best place for people to stay in touch with you and learn more about Gemini? And also I have to say now, do you have an all time favorite book that you'd want to recommend someone before we end this podcast?

So Twitter is great. My DMs are open. I'm yler2l e r on Twitter. If you want to follow Gemini, it's Gemini. G E M I N I Favorites are so hard. It's like the easy question but also the hardest because I just rack my head. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. But what I'll say is this. For intros to entrepreneurship, 0 to 1 by Peter Thiel is a great book. It's very approachable. It's not that long if you understand the art form of entrepreneurship and startups. That's a great one. That's definitely one of my favorites. Digital Gold by Nathaniel Popper is a great primer on cryptocurrency and bitcoin. And then I have to shamelessly plug bitcoin. Billionaires by Ben Mezric, which portrays my story and Cameron's story and our journey in bitcoin.

I love it. Well, Tyler, with that being said, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today, man. It really means a lot.

Yeah, thanks, Casey. Excited to be here. Hopefully you do it again. Foreign Legacy of Monsters An Apple original series the world is on fire. I decided to do something about it on November 17th. This place, it's not ours. Believe me, the most massive event of the year arrives. If you come with me, you'll know everything. I promise. Oh, my God.

Go, go, go.

Monarch Legacy of monsters streaming November 17th only on Apple TV. Plus.