Yahya Mokhtarzada - Co-Founder of Truebill Speaks on Getting Acquired For $1.275 Billion

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Welcome back to the Casey Adams Show. Today we have Yaya Moktarzada here with us, the co founder of truebill. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Yaya.

Happy to be here.

Yeah. So I know, you know, everyone sees this headline that recently came out. You guys just got acquired for $1.275 billion. And I'm excited to get into the story today. But I mean, first off, like, how are you feeling? This news just came out. It's very exciting and I know I'm just having the opportunity to speak with you just days after. So I'm sure you're still feeling it.

Yeah, yeah. The deal closed two days ago, so. So, you know, still sort of taking it in. It's definitely not what I expected. You know, I think overall it's a bit surreal and overwhelming and it's, you know, we're super excited about the acquisition, obviously, and I'm really happy about where we ended up with the acquiring company. I think it's a mission that the team's excited about and it's a team that I'm excited to work with. But, you know, it's a whole wide spectrum of emotions. The way I've sort of described it is it's like your child going off to college. You're sort of happy that they're going off to Harvard or Stanford or something, but you're also a little sad that the house is empty. I don't have kids, but I imagine this is what that would feel like.

Absolutely. And I think one of the most exciting things that I am about to jump into is just everyone sees this number, but I would love for you to dive into where this all started. Everyone sees the end goal. Now they're seeing this huge number. But like, where, when did this begin? Where did this idea for truebill come from? And what was some of the origin conversations that brought this idea into the world?

Yeah, absolutely. So I started truebill with my brothers. We've Sort of always worked together and always been entrepreneurs. And by entrepreneur I mean like a lemonade stand that became a lawn mowing business, that became a snow shoveling business in the winters. But as we got older, we got a little bit more sophisticated and we started creating websites. So we created a company called Webs.com that was build your own website and free website hosting platform. And that was acquired right at the end of 2011. So a few years later, you know, I think we collectively had the itch to start something again and also just to get the band back together. And we sat around in my brother's basement for a few days trying to think up the next big idea. And where we sort of landed with that was I sort of realized, like, you can't just think up a billion dollar company or a billion dollar idea. That's just not how it works. So I was like, you know, after. After about a week of us thinking, with nothing to show for it, I said, look, guys, like, we're not going to think of the next huge company. We just need to start building stuff. So let's just think about things that we want, things we need and start building. So we sort of turned through two ideas pretty quickly. And these were not, you know, again, big ideas. These were like small features that I just sort of were out there. And then with True Bill, it was kind of serendipitous. So my brother was kind of brought up that he'd been surprised that he was paying for a home security system on his old house for a year. And immediately that resonated with me. And I was like, dude, the same thing happened to me. I was paying for inflight wi fi for 14 months before I caught it. And so, you know, we're like, well, is there, is there a solution for this? So I remember I logged into Mint to see if it could show me all my subscriptions. Subscriptions, and it couldn't. And I logged into AMEX to see if there's an easy way to see who was billing me on a recurring basis. And there wasn't. And so we said, well, let's just build something that fixes that. So it didn't take more than a couple days. But a few days later, we had an algorithm that would connect your bank account, pull down your transactions, and show you your recurring charges. And we sent that out to friends and family. And two interesting things happened. One was, it seemed like everyone we sent it to was finding things they either didn't know about or didn't want anymore. But two is After a few days, we were getting about 30 signups a day, which meant that just this primitive thing that we strung together, people were sharing because they found value in it. So we said, all right, there's something here. Let's at least spend a few more weeks on it and see where we can get it. Then from there, I don't want to say it took off, but we started getting more data and I guess started becoming more aware of the potential of where this thing could go and what it could be.

Was this already an app or was this, like you said, just a simple algorithm that you were sharing with friends and family?

In the beginning it was a website we used. What was it? Google had these open source, free sort of front end. I think it was called the bootstrap templates. And so we threw a really just templated front end on there and it was really just list. Again, we'd use Plaid, which is this service that connects to bank accounts. So you put in your credit card username, password, it'll pull down transactions and give you a list of your subscriptions. Then from there we just started adding to it. So we said, okay, seeing them is great, but if there's one you don't want, canceling these things is a pain. So let's add one click cancellation. So we did that. And I was spending a few hours every day, like on the phone or emailing services, trying to cancel things that people didn't want anymore. And then still for us at that point, it was really just a project. And my thinking was, look, you know, there's no, there's not really a business to be had showing people their subscriptions and canceling them for them. But we sort of had an epiphany where the, the scope of the mission expanded. And I said, look, this is not going to be a company about canceling subscriptions. This is going to be a company about eliminating financial inefficiency in general. And so we started adding features like bill negotiation or bank fee refunds. And that's when we started getting revenue and kind of committed to making this thing a real company and a business instead of just a project. And then from there, over the years, that sort of sphere of what we saw as our mission continued to expand. So it was a of piece years later. And I said, look, this is not a platform about eliminating financial inefficiency. This is just the best platform to run your finances in general. And that's what we need to build. So we started adding things like dashboarding and credit score reporting and Transaction monitoring. And then in the last year, I think was our final sort of biggest expansion where I said this is not just a company about seeing and understanding your finances. This is really the complete financial platform for your to just improve your financial life in general. So in the next couple months we're gonna roll out a credit card. And last year we launched things like pay advances to help people avoid overdrafts or automated savings, which is a service that helps people just sort of set aside a few dollars every few days or every week towards a savings goal or that's safer rainy day or safer down payment on a car or something else.

I love that. I mean, it seems like just that mission of pivoting and continuing to expand, it seems like that was always the way you guys operated since day one. And just hearing that is so cool because like I said, you see this number, this acquisition, but hearing how you guys just started with a simple project and you were setting out to build the next unicorn company that has this massive acquisition that you saw a problem that you were having personally and you solved it. And I'd love to expand on that because I know you had a previous business before Truebill. Was that. Has that always been you and your brother's thesis when it comes to building companies or like, what are some of your entrepreneurial just philosophies when it comes to building successful startups and companies overall?

Yeah, I think, I think for me it starts with just what's the problem you're trying to solve? Right. And I think a lot of people put the, put the cart before the horse and they start thinking about the business plan or the revenue streams or the Tim or, or really anything else. And I think, I think that's backwards. Right? The first things first is build something that people are going to want. And I guess I'm a little bit of a contrarian there because we had a heck of a time trying to raise funding, fundraising for the first few rounds. Really no one wanted to touch this thing. And you know, there was a. The objections that, you know, they were. We got all of them. So, So I pitch VCs and they say, yeah, you're growing right now, but this is just a niche product and you're going to run out of like people that are interested in this niche feature and that's your growth is going to taper off. Or we saw, we talked to other investors and they said, yeah, we could see a huge percentage of the US population needing this thing, but you're never going to be able to monetize. And both of those are sort of. I mean, I guess I don't agree with the niche thing, but the monetization, I guess I see the reasoning there. If you look at a product for what it is today or what it was at that time, which is this subscription tracking cancellation platform that is difficult to monetize, but I think you sort of need to abstract one step back and say like, you know, is this, are they delivering value? And from here are there clear next steps and clear expansion opportunities where they can continue delivering value in a way that opens, that like integrates themselves deeper into the consumer's life and kind of puts them in a position to basically capitalize on that value, either directly or indirectly.

And I'm just curious if we can get into it, but what has been the biggest revenue opportunity as you guys opened up in these different markets and different feature sets?

Yeah, so, you know, we kind of stumbled into our revenue model two years in. So for the first two years of the company, we really chugged along and one of the pieces of feedback that we got in the dozens of investor meetings where we got turned down was that no one's ever going to want to pay for this. It turns out that was incorrect. So today the company's revenue is, I guess it's public now. So we're on track to finish the year at 100 million annual run rate. And the vast, vast majority of that is actually premium. So users pay us a few dollars a month or an annual fee to be able to use the platform. Well, rather the platform is free, but for premium features on the platform.

Yeah, that's incredible. And I also, I want to get into the raising capital part. I know you guys like raised multiple rounds, but you said in the early days it was challenging. And I think a lot of founders can relate, especially their first time. I just closed first round of funding ever raised capital just, just above a million and you know, learned a lot this year from doing that. And first time raising capital at 21 and just did now have gone through that and say like, okay, got it, we got it done. I'm curious to know from you guys, like, what was, what were some of the early, early hurdles when it comes to fundraising and how are you able to overcome those, to actually get the deal done and then take those lessons into future rounds?

Yeah, so we've done five rounds of funding up to now prior to the exit, and each one was, was unique. So the, so the seed round of funding, no one would, would commit a big check. So typically you Know, you go out and I know, like, what your largest check was. But we went out and, you know, I was thinking we would need $2 million. And so I went out and tried to raise 2 million and just couldn't get it. Couldn't get any large institutional investors to want to take a serious bet on us. So it ended up being over two years. We sort of cobbled together 2.7 million in seed funding, but that was literally done in 20 to 100k checks, and it was not done up front. There was a solid year where we had three or four or five months of Runway left in the bank, and I was on a weekly basis, like, getting a 25k check. We were burning about $100,000 a month at that point. And so, you know, every week I'd have. Have investor meetings, and I'd raise 25 or 50k, and I'd say, all right, that's like one or two more weeks of keeping the lights on.

Wow. Just hearing that is so incredible. Like, wow. It's. I don't know if you do interviews often, but, like, just hearing this come from, you know, you see this, the news, and knowing how you guys are operating in that timeframe, I mean, that's not only so cool to hear, but to reflect on that. I'm sure that makes you feel like it was all worth it, right? Not everyone has an exit like you guys have had, but I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs have felt that we're running out of money. We're running out of money. And stories like this is what inspires people to keep going. I'd love to hear, in those challenging times, what was it that kept you and your brothers going? And how are you able to navigate the pressure?

Yes. So, I mean, it was definitely a tough time. You know, at the time, I was the one responsible for the fundraising, so I actually sort of tried to hide the financial picture from my brother, who was. Who was CTO and leading engineering. And I was like, okay, you know what? Like, he's got. His burden is engineering, and he's delivering on that. So I'll.

I'll.

I'll take the pressure for the fundraising and the finances, it was tough. And, you know, I'd love to say, like, what kept me going was, like, supreme belief in the mission or the product or something, but honestly, it was fear of failure. You know, I just lay in bed, not able to sleep, thinking about the calls I'd have to make to the investors who put in money, explaining to them that. That they were wrong for believing in me and that I'd lost their investment. And I just really didn't want that to happen. I didn't want to lay off the employees and say, you know, you took a bet on me and you were wrong. And quite frankly, I wanted to prove the people who passed wrong also. So, yeah, no, I'd love to say, you know, there was some big altruistic vision that I refused to give up on. But, no, I think it was just, it was pure survival instinct. Where it gets interesting is, so finally, towards the tail end of that, we figured out our business model and the business actually took off and still no VCs would touch us for the Series A. So we. So the founders actually ended up having to give the company a loan to keep it alive. And like, right as that was running out, that's when we finally got an investor to take a chance on what was a pretty small Series A. And even then, usually what happens is your lead investor wants the most allocation possible. So if you're raising five million dollars, they usually want at least four and a half million or as close to that as they can get. In this case, they did the bare minimum. So they, they did 2.5 million and told us we had to go out and fill up the other 2.5 million on our own. And if we couldn't do that, they were out. So it still wasn't. That wasn't a huge vote of faith. And it wasn't really until the Series B and C that fundraising got a little bit easier. But still, even then, you know, it wasn't like we had. You know, you hear about companies where they're getting offers and counter offers and bidding wars. It was not like that for us. For the B, you know, I must have pitched at least 20. This was a while ago, so it must have been somewhere between 20 and 50 bcs, probably closer to like 30 or 40. And only one said yes. And that was Eldridge, who was a fund I cannot say enough great things about. But, you know, they're the only ones who wanted to do it. And so we did it with them. And then the C, we got another great fund investmentr. But again, that was not because they pounced early and it was not because they put in the highest bid. It was literally out of the 30 funds we pitched, they were the only ones who would say yes.

Wow, that is so cool to hear.

And keep in mind, the business was growing 6x annually at, through, through all of. Each. Through each of those rounds.

See that? That's Just crazy to me. Like, why, why do you think it wasn't like that? Like you said, that story, you hear the bidding warrior growing 6, 6x year over year, and what was it? What were they afraid of? And I'm sure they're reading the articles now, like hitting themselves. But like, why do you think that they were thinking like that just so like other entrepreneurs that are out there, it's like, how do you, you know, what's your advice for them when they're pitching funds? And what, what have you learned through the process of speaking to dozens at scale in multiple different rounds? And how has the narrative changed? And just what advice would you have overall if you were to talk about fundraising at these different stages?

Yeah, there's a few questions in there, so let me try to unpack that. The first one is why did all the VCs pass? And I think they operate on a really specific sort of model of pattern recognition, right? And in this case, you know, we were really focused on execution and operation. And when we went in and we present, when we presented, you know, we showed the metrics as is and we gave goals that or future projections that we were very confident we can hit. And you know, our deck and our slides were about why this is a great business. And you look at the sort of the mega rounds out there with huge valuations or huge revenue multiples, right? Like the Weworks of the world or the Juiceros. And you know, what they're, what they're pitching is not what the business is today, but what the business is going to be in 10 or 20 years and how it's going to be this trillion dollar company. And I think VCs are just sort of wired to respond to that for some reason that I don't completely understand. But beyond that, I think the space that we carved out for ourselves is a space that historically is full of failure. I mean, you think about an app to help you manage your finances makes a lot of sense, right? But as of last week, the biggest acquisition ever in that space was mint for 160 million, right? Not 16 billion or 160 billion IPO or even 1 billion, right? And then the second biggest exit was 100, and then the third biggest exit was 40, right? So you compare that to ride sharing, right? And biggest exit was 100 billion. And you compare that to gaming, where the biggest acquisition, you know, biggest acquisition was I think, 20 billion or 30 billion or something, right? And so it's just, it's a space that had a bad reputation. And I think People didn't really understand it. I also think VCs had a lack of empathy in terms of what we were building in that, you know, we would go in to meetings and I'd say, look, you know, this app saves people $500 a year. And they'd say, okay, like, why does anyone care? Or like, you know, why do I need this? You know, you're not the target demographic here. So I think there was, you know, maybe I can say this now that it's post exit and we've sort of proven something, but I do think there was a lot of blind spots that I'm frankly surprised at how pervasive they were.

100%. That makes sense. And it's cool because I just for context, I've been using truebill for, I think, almost a year now, and I've been loving it. And it's funny, because I'm here visiting my. My parents for Christmas. And even just last night, I'm talking to my mom. She's talking about this bill that she realized was, you know, paying. She was paying $12 a month for the last year and a half. And then I. I put her on the true bill because, you know, I'm talking about how we're about to do this interview, and I'm like, wow, like, there's still so many people, I'm sure, like, just the fact that you guys have this acquisition and you guys are going to be continuing to build, like it's in so many people, like, it's such a clear problem that needed to be solved. As. As I'm reflecting on, as someone that's 21, that's, you know, on these personal finance apps that, I mean, you guys have really carved. Carved your way, and it's incredible to see what you've created. But I'd love to talk about post exit. Right. It's like, as a founder, like, how are you feeling? What are you excited about? And, like, how do you envision the future now that, you know, as you said, like, your baby went off to college and now you have to view your world in a completely different way, I'm sure.

Yeah. Yeah. One more, one more thing. Just real quickly on the. On the fundraising, you know. Yes. What, what advice I would have for people going through the fundraising process.

As.

We went through it over the years, there was a lot of frustration for us. And I remember being especially frustrated that competitors would get way higher valuations even though we had more revenue, or, you know, we'd go into board meetings with our existing investors and they Say, all right, you're crushing it, you know, raising your next round is going to be a breeze. And then it wasn't.

Right.

But in the end, that actually ended up being a really good thing for us. I feel like, you know, I know personally that if early on we had gotten, you know, a $15 million Series A or something, I would have kept chugging along trying to create a product that ultimately wouldn't achieve the union economics to be a viable business. Right. The reason we were so focused on monetization and the reason we were kind of forced to scramble to find a viable business model is because we didn't have funding and we had to make it work.

Right.

And then, and then sort of, you know, in the mid, midlife of the company, again, cash was always scarce for us, so we always had to operate at near break even. We always had to have a focus on retention, monetization rather than building sort of pie in the sky products. And that ended up serving us really well. So it's, you know, it's very tempting to think, oh, I need this huge amount of money to do what I need to do. And the reason I can't do it is because I don't have the funding. And that's almost never the reality. If you're building complex hardware or something, maybe that's the case. But on consumer software, even B2B software, I really don't think that's the case. And this may sound cliche because I've heard this before and I always sort of shrugged it off, but sometimes not having a ton of access to capital is actually a blessing. And I feel like looking back, our capital limitations actually ended up being a competitive advantage between us and our competitors.

Wow, that's super impactful to hear.

Yep, thanks. So, yeah, so in terms of jumping to what excites me, you know, so we spoke to a few different companies when, during the acquisition process, and we got strong interest from a few. But with Rocket Mortgage, it was just really very clear that that's where there was the most synergy. So, for instance, you know, we spoke to banks and they were like, hey, it'd be great to have, you know, this great tool to help people manage their money. Like built it like plugged into our banking app. Right. And yeah, that, that makes sense, but it's not synergistic. It's just a cool feature to add on. Right. With the Rocket Mortgage, where it really started making sense and what sort of clicked for me is they said, look, we get millions and millions of visitors to our website every month. And, you know, only a very small percent of those people actually convert to a mortgage on that, on that visit. And for the rest of them, that's it. They bounce and we have to recapture them. We probably have to pay to recapture them to bring them back. Right. And you look at like, why people, you know, why the vast majority of people don't get a mortgage on that. Well, one, you know, most people probably just doing research, planning for a future purchase.

Right.

But then you also have people who, you know, they're not ready yet because they don't have the down payment, or they're not ready yet because they're, they don't qualify because their credit score is not good enough, or they are. Some other piece of finances needs to get ready. Or, you know, they're. They're getting ready and they haven't found the right house yet. Right. But in all those cases, TrueBuild provides this really great tool to form a relationship and deliver value prior to the purchase. So if the purge, if the person is, you know, planning or trying to, trying to prepare for purchase in six months, you've got truebill, which can say, all right, great, you're gonna make a purchase six months. Let's start saving money. Let's. Let's start putting aside more money towards the down payment. Let's cut out subscriptions you're not using to get rid of unneeded expenses. Right. Let's. Let's look at your credit score and see what we can do to build credit in the next six months. And so these are all things that are really important in the process of buying a home that really aren't connected to any mortgage or home buying platform that I'm aware of and really give Rocket Mortgage a really killer way to establish a relationship and deliver value ahead of the actual purchase and to just set that consumer up for healthy finances post purchase. Right. Because that relationship doesn't have to end when the mortgage is closed. It can persist for years after that.

That makes total sense. It seems like a clear fit. And I know when we were just getting the conversation, you said the acquisition conversation from like, hey, this is an idea, to closing. How long was that time process again? Sure.

So we had our first conversation in June. I hope I'm not saying anything confidential here, but we had our first so. So we'd spoken a few times over starting in March 21, March 2021. But in June, we had a con. Really great conversation, said, let's explore this from there. You know, we met with Their executive team spent some time sort of thinking through synergies and that sort of thing. And it was about the start of October is when we said, all right, let's, let's try to make a deal happen. So from the start of October till mid December, was working through diligence, legal, finance and everything else.

Yeah.

Which for a deal this size is kind of insane if you're not familiar.

With it, you know, slightly familiar, but now that seems very quick and I mean, props to you guys for making it happen. That's so exciting.

Yeah, they were awesome about it. I mean, you know, we were getting, obviously we were super motivated to do a deal, so we were working really hard. But we were getting emails from their team at, you know, 11:00pm on Saturday, like with questions about data that they were digging through, you know, around the clock.

What was like from founders that are at that level, that are maybe having those acquisition type of conversations at any level. What was the most challenging part of diligence and what do you recommend donors do? You know, if they want to put themselves in the best position when those conversations start happening?

Yeah, so, so there's a lot of things I would have done differently over the years. One thing is just keep better records. Okay, so, so from day one, keep all your employment agreements in place. Make sure everyone signs the same set of employment agreements. Make sure they all sign non compete and assignment management forms. Keep all your NDAs in one place, keep all your INOs in one place and all your SaaS, contracts and everything else. Right. Just the effort in sort of, you know, collecting all that when your company is, our company is now about 160 people, is monumental. So that's easy, things you can do. The other thing is, you know, maybe this doesn't matter at the, at the really early stage, but as your company gets a little bit bigger, invest in, in accounting and bookkeeping. You know, they're gonna, if the acquisition is a decent size, they're gonna have a third party firm comb through every single number in your, in your books. And if any of that accounting is done in a, in a non GAAP compliant way, that's going to create a lot of, a lot of questions and a lot of, you know, a lot of extra work that at the, at the 23rd hour that you don't necessarily ideally want to do.

Yeah, that's very quality feedback. I appreciate that.

Yeah. But you know, it's, it's, it's funny because like you hire your first person and you just sort of save the, you throw the offer Letter in a cabinet.

Right.

The signed offer letter. And then, you know, you hire your 10th person, you throw that in cabinet, and then 11th, you switch to digital. So now you have like your first 10 in a cabinet, and then you've got a bunch of digital, and then you switch to new platform. And those are. There's a stored over there. And it sounds trivial, but it adds up.

Yeah, no, I'm sure.

Or you let someone go and they didn't sign the termination agreement three years ago, and now you're chasing them down.

Now, oh, my God. I can hear the stories. So what is it like? Or what has it been like going through this whole process from starting to acquisition with your brothers? And I asked because myself, I have two older brothers. We're all boys and just growing up, we don't do any type of business together. But I always envisioned that, like, in such a unique way. So I'd love to hear from you, like, what has it been like to not only start, grow, scale, and sell a business with your brothers, like, on your team?

Yeah, it's. It's absolutely awesome. They're. They're, you know, my favorite people in the world to work with. I think first, we're super lucky in that each of us has different functional areas. So the way I think of it is my younger brother is cto, so he leads engineering and all things technical. My older brother, he's a great. Just a great motivator, a great figurehead, but also he's really, really fantastic at product. So he's effectively ahead of all things product. And then that leaves me sort of with everything in between. So marketing, operations, lead, legal, and whatever else needs to get cleaned up along the way. But I think that really clear division of functional areas makes it easier. And then beyond that, I think it's just really efficient. The way we communicate is really efficient. We sort of understand each other's thinking. And I can say something in my brother like, no, that's the stupidest thing you've ever said. Let's move on. And my feelings don't get hurt by that. I know that if he's saying that, I probably am wrong and we can move on. Right? That's.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I'm curious, you know, like, having that moment together, what was it like when you got the final news that things were, you know, you're selling the company? Like, what was that moment like for you and your brothers when that, you know, maybe it's. It's. The door is closing. It's official now. Exactly. Is such a special moment, in my opinion. And I'd love to know, like, what was that like?

So I don't want to, I don't want to like pop your bubble here, but please do as a founder, because believe me, I fantasized about that moment, like for six years now. Right. Or for more than that for my whole, my entire career. And as a founder, that moment does not exist. What happens is you have a moment where you say, hey, there's a 5% chance this can happen and then there is a 15% chance this can happen. And so that, that big moment was a moment when we went from 99.8 certainty to a hundred percent certainty. Right. But that sort of, that climb was incremental over 2 and a half months. And so by the time we went from. Because, you know, it's like Tuesday, you know, you're talking to the acquirer and you're like, all right, we're going to aim to sign Friday. And then Wednesday they're like, all right, we're on track to sign Friday. And then Thursday it's like, okay, everything's looking good for tomorrow. Right. So you don't have that moment that the employees have when you pull them into the, like, an all coming meeting. You say, we've been acquired and they're all shocked and excited.

Right.

But also, you know, at the tail end of that acquisition, you were so tired and beat up. I think we were all just drained and looked at each other and, you know, it wasn't jumping around screaming and celebrating. It was like, well, I guess we did it. I guess that's that, you know. And then everyone's like, man, are you going out to celebrate tonight? And, you know, going to party? And I was like, honestly, I'm ordering sushi and watching a movie because I am just beat and dead.

I mean, that's so cool to hear, though, and I appreciate the transparency on that.

Yeah, maybe, maybe other people are just better at it than I. But it, it definitely was not how I would have imagined it. And I think it was disappointing for my friends. Oh, my goodness.

I'd love to, like, as we're wrapping up here, I'd love to just go way back to, like, growing up. What was the relationship like with your brothers and what were some of your early career aspirations when you were growing up?

Yeah, like I mentioned, we always worked together. Or I guess a better way to put it would be I always worked for my older brother. So, you know, I mowed lawns for his lawn mowing business. And I shoveled snow for his snow shoveling business. But, you know, I think we were fortunate. Our parents had a home office, so, you know, we had access to computers and a copy machine and, you know, technology in the house. We were sort of early on to, you know, get the Internet and high speed Internet. And so I think, I think seeing that sort of gave us that, that entrepreneurial bug or the belief that you can start a business and do it yourself. But beyond that, I think, I think we just have a really fantastic bond where, you know, we all think similarly, we communicate really efficiently and we genuinely care about each other. And I think that ended up being real, real gift was that at every point in the company there was, there was no time where my relationship with my brothers was not more important than the business. And just knowing that, knowing that helps you sort of take a step back and say, you know what, even though it's stressful or even though I feel really strongly about this or I disagree about that, it's not that important. My relationship with my brother is more important.

I love that. Just standing on that is the, the driving force and driven has been super important throughout the whole process. Well, cool. Well, last question, Yaya, before we wrap up here is just if you were to go back in time and do it all over again, what would your advice be to your younger self and why?

Man, that's a good question. What, what, what age self am I talking to? Because it would vary over the years.

Let's say like, you know, like first entrepreneurial endeavor. Yeah, that would be just getting in that, you know, that groove of like going to build something.

Yeah, I would say, you know, I, I really wasted a lot of time with True Bill, because you look at like the Instagrams and the YouTubes and even the Facebooks of the world, and they didn't monetize for the first couple years, right? And so I remember I used to say, like, monetization is for like losers and do and those who can't monetize, right? Because like the hero companies out there are the ones who don't monetize, right? Or like, like again, Instagram sold for what, a billion dollars without ever making a dime, right? You sort of hear those stories and those are the, the companies you look up to. Well, you're not Instagram and if you are, you don't need my advice, right? So I would say, you know, I would tell myself, listen, like, monetize early not because the revenue is going to be meaningful, right? But monetize early because that is really your only true North Star. You're going to get people. You'll have no short of a shortage of opinions in terms of, like, features you should develop or directions you should go. And the people giving you those are clueless. Right. Like, what matters is what your users want. And the truest measure of what your users want is what they'll pay for.

Absolutely. That's great. I appreciate that.

Yeah. And so, you know, the way that manifested was we spent years building, you know, we spent two years building out features that, you know, over the years, we've actually stripped out of the app because they just weren't what people wanted and they weren't useful and they were invaluable. And it wasn't until, you know, we were fighting to stay alive that we started looking at, okay, like, what actually generates revenue. Right. And let's. Let's double down on those areas. And that was sort of the. The inflection point in business.

That's. That's very impactful advice. I appreciate you for sharing that and Rainbow Books. Totally. With that being said. Yeah, yeah. Where is the best place for everyone listening today to follow you, to stay in contact with you and to learn more about Truebill and what's happening moving forward?

Yeah. So. Well, Truebill is just Truebill.com and then I'm not huge on posting my thoughts, but I know I need to do a better job of it. I'm on Instagram, it's Yayam Y A H Y A M. And so, yeah, I'm going to try to do a better job of sort of documenting the journey from acquisition onward as well as I think now it's cool in that I get to be a little bit more honest in telling what happened over the years instead of trying to paint a rosy picture.

Absolutely. And with that being said, I appreciate you for all the stories and wisdom and just sharing the whole journey from start to acquisition, and I really appreciate your time. And I know for everyone listening, if you already aren't following Yaya or using Treebill, make sure you go check it out. And again, Yaya, thank you so much.

Thank you. Appreciate the time.

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