Inside the Deal: How I Sold My 25 Year Old Business

Foreign. Hello, everybody. My name is Mike Ginsberg, president and CEO of Caulking Ginsburg. I am more than excited sitting here with Chad Silverstein, former owner choice Recovery, Columbus, Ohio. Chad, good morning. How are you today?

Doing great, thanks, Mike. It's good to be with you.

Good to be with you as well. So it's been about a month. Closed the transaction late September, early October. While we're not going to talk in intimate details about the terms, conditions of the deal today, there's a lot more than makes up a transaction. It's been about a month. How you feeling?

I'm feeling great.

Yeah, you look healthy. You look rested. Yeah.

You know, I told my wife last night, I said, 25 years in the business, I don't know what it's like to not have it on my mind. The risk, the emails, the, you know, just the constant 247 take on the business. And it's the first time I feel like in my life that I'm just kind of like, free from it. And after closing up all the loose ends, it's. It's a good feeling. I'm really happy with. With how things. How things ended up in the result of the transaction.

Well, Chad, you must have started in this business when you were three, maybe four years old, because you're among the youngest owners I have ever worked with in this business. I've worked with some young owners, entrepreneurs I will call them, but for the most part, a business owner usually goes through a transaction once in their life after running a business for multiple generations or what have you. If they're lucky, they're able to exit through a sale or transition, a successful transition to new management or the next generation, the kids. But in your case, man, you have a life ahead of you. But now you have the battle wounds of going through not only ownership for more than two decades, but also transitioning out of that business through a sale. Let's talk about where it started. So what got you into the collection business as a very young guy?

So I was. I was a student at Ohio State University. I'm from Cleveland, and I moved to Columbus. I went to Ohio State, and I was blessed. I had a friend whose father owned a collection agency in Cleveland, Ohio, and I needed a summer job. And this guy was just. He was a blessing. He took me under his wing, and I worked really hard for him. And he said, when you go back your senior year at Ohio State, do you want to maybe start something in Columbus with me? And he taught me everything he knew. He showed me the business And I just worked my tail off. In six months I had about 100 clients and I was still in school and so I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And upon graduation, he offered me the opportunity to start a separate company with him and he became a mentor. And we had a 15 year run together and built Columbus, the office in Columbus. And we were pursuing the healthcare industry. I would just walk into dentist's office and doctor's offices and I ended up having probably about a thousand clients in the first few years. And it just started to grow. And I remember someone said, you need an office here in Columbus. And I was in school at the time, like, no way. And then we said, we have to. So we got an office and it just took off. It was great. So it was just literally just knocking on doors and just knocking them down and just getting clients. And then I was literally doing every position I had to. I went to pick up the accounts, I did data entry, I did the collections, I did the client services. I mean, I really, until I was able to hire people, I was pretty much doing everything. So I really learned the business from the ground up.

Was he involved in the business at that time or was this totally separate? I mean, you, you separated from him, but was this a joint business or something that you were siloing yourself?

He was such a great partner. We used to talk on the phone for hours. I mean, we literally, we had so much fun. He was such an optimist and he really taught me how to run culture. He really taught me about the value of the people of the business. And he was active in the way that like a mentor would be an active. So I was running the business and he helped me a lot with the financials. He really had his pulse on the QuickBooks and really taking care of it. He really had pulse on the goals of the company for the, for the collectors. But it was more of just that, that kind of just partnership that I wasn't a 5050 partner, but he paid me like a 5050 partner. And he was just generous. He got the best out of me, let's put it that way. He, I think he saw that I was, I was serious about, you know, taking this and growing it. And in 2013, after 15 years, he decided he wanted to exit out of it and just remain in his other business in Cleveland. And so we did a nice transaction together and it was just, it was such a great success story between the two of us. And I really, I really just have so much gratitude for them and his whole company and they're doing good. So I'm really happy that it worked out well for everybody.

Well, it sounds like it was a classic win win situation, certainly for him and for you. But one of the things I just heard you say is as a mentor, kind of teaching you how to deal with people. I don't think there's a more people intensive industry than debt collection in any capacity. If you think about it, you have a business here that's run by people that communicates with consumers and people on the other side. Tens of thousands of calls a week, if not more mass communications technology efficiency. You had some edges, though. You had some ways that you went about doing things that distinguished you in the marketplace from others like you. One of the things that I wanted to talk about before we talk about specifically some of those service offerings that you have, the type of client that you serviced. Most health care agencies claim with a great deal of conviction, hey, man, I service some of the largest systems in the world, you know, hospital systems. But at the end of the day, razor thin margins. They don't service them. They adhere to every beck and call from them. And in many instances those are being fraught. Those hospital systems are being run now by these middleware companies, our source and the others. So your clientele has changed to these middleware companies, but not you, not you. Your focus was always in on the smaller practitioner and you had thousands of them. One of the things that I just was flabbergasted about was the diversification that you had within that client base. And when you told me that this wasn't accidental, this was intentional, I was like, good job, man. This is the way you run a business. But can you speak to the type of client that. Not personal stuff, no names, we're not looking for that. But the type of client that you pursued when you not only got started, but when you grew. And I also need to tell the audience this. While Chad doesn't come from the industry per se, he didn't grow up in collections. He grew up in Columbus or wherever. You grew up and went to school at osu. Go Buckeyes. This industry wasn't handed to you. You needed to learn it really from the ground up. Why did you pursue those types of clients?

So it's fine. So two things. One, when I first really took off with the business, I didn't want to do what everyone else was doing. The industry has such a negative stereotype. It's incredible how negative it is. And so my goal was always to do things the Opposite of other compet. And when I, like, started doing that internally with my team and then I started doing it with my clients, I quickly realized it works if you do it different. And I always said the opposite. And I mean the opposite. I mean, like, if employees were all complaining about how they were treated by their collection agencies, you know, they hated the fact that they, you know, had to work late nights and had to work weekends. So I did open schedules. You know, my employees hated the fact that they had to work in group pools. And so I gave everyone more of an entrepreneurial track, and they made a commission of what they got in their portfolio. And that was. It was never tied to other things. You know, my clients, they never heard from any one of the companies. You know, my clients called and they needed someone to come pick up the accounts. I was in their office that day. Like, so I always tried to do things differently, and it worked. And so I just thrived off that. And I'm very competitive, and I wanted to build the kind of company that, like, I wanted to work in. And I knew that if I were to go out and get these big clients, that they were going to run me through the ground. And I was a small company. So my mentor, his name was Norm, and he taught me when our first day training, we walked into three dentist offices, he literally made the gals at the front desk laugh. And we got clients, and he's like, just go back to Columbus and do that. I mean, like, that was my training. So when I went back to Columbus, I literally got in my car after class, I knocked on doors, I got kicked out of offices saying, no solicitation. Can't you see the sign? And I didn't stop until I got someone to start having conversations. And I would tell them, look, at first, we were out of Cleveland. We're different. We're nice to people. I got an incredible office and people with no money up front, no contracts to sign, they were willing to give us a try. And so when I realized that I found success early on, then I started going crazy. And that's when I just started getting client after client. And I was going after those small clients. They were easier to get. They weren't a pain in the butt. And they gave me business right away so I could start making an impact. And believe it or not, even though a lot of companies don't want these small clients, they think they're a pain in the butt because of the servicing of it. You can make money quickly from them because they're easier to Collect, you know, they're easier and they're easier to make happy. And a lot of those office managers and contacts, they go to other offices, they bring you with them, you know, so they, they, you had a good experience and they take you to the bigger oasis. So it just led into like other bigger type clients. And honestly Mike, I didn't care who I was going after. I just went after every. Everyone who had a debt that probably needed to use an agency, I went after. And we just had that niche of those smaller offices. They got the short end of the stick with big companies and we were able to provide a great service and they loved us and they just like using us. So they just kept using us.

I think the world needs to listen to what you just said here because listen, there's just too many people who follow the leader, not just in this industry. Look at traffic anywhere in the country, right? People get on the road at 8 o' clock in the morning because they got on the road at 8 o' clock in the morning. But what are they expecting other than, you know, gridlock? But then you look at the business, people are chasing these 800 pound guerrilla clients out there and they think the smaller practitioner in your case or creditor outside of health care in other cases, credit unions fall into this category. For example, they think there's not enough skin on that bone in order for them to make a profit. But yet you didn't run a mom and pop business. You ran a successful debt collection operation that did other things, but really supported the need for receivables management in a way that distinguishes you. But you were able to build size. A lot of companies die after. They can't grow anymore. So they die on the vine after a million dollars in revenue, using an example a year. Not you. This is not a mom and pop business. Are you the largest business, the parallel of the world? No. But you didn't want to be. You wanted to have a strong operation which made a difference with your clients. You knew you weren't running a charity, so you were making a profit along the way and you figured it out. Kudos to you, man. And you put together a good team here. So let's talk about the sale. Why did you choose to sell this business? You're a young guy. Wait, wait, wait. It just gets good. This is a good story to tell. You're a young guy, you're running a successful operation. You're hands off. You have a very sophisticated qualified senior leadership team in place. That's killing it. Doing a great Job within the business, but you're hands off after a lot of years. I guess you're more of a hands on guy than you thought you were. I don't know. But after all these years, what convinced you that the time was right to sell a medical collection. Wait, to sell a medical collection agency in 2022? With the headwinds that we were experiencing, this wasn't an easy process, as you know. So I'm just going to ask you what compelled you at this time to make a move?

Yeah, that's a great question. So in 2018, 2019, we were crushing it and we broke through ceilings. We are an EOS client, so we were seeing traction and we were doing all this good stuff in the business. And there was a day where I walked out of a meeting and I realized that the company sort of outgrew me a little bit. And I was the visionary and the operator of the business for 20 some years. And I love building culture. I focused on culture, culture, culture, the people. I made the people the number one priority. And we were the best place to work for over a decade. And we actually were ranked number one best place to work twice by Columbus Business first and Columbus CEO magazine. And for a collection agency. I was proud of that.

Right, Because. Yeah.

And look, those are anonymous surveys that your employers are taking so they don't have to say anything if they don't want to. So, you know, it was a nice kind of a success story for my entire team to just be recognized in that fashion. And I realized that you can have the best people, but if they don't have the capabilities, then you're not going to be able to grow. And it all starts with the leader. And I realized that I needed to replace myself. So I found a hired gun. I brought in an executive person who can come in. It was my first really big hire for an executive position. And she was hired to come in and run the operations. And it was definitely one of my weaknesses as a visionary and a brainstormer. And I could see that I was causing problems. So I removed myself from the business from the day to day before someone else could remove me. So it was good timing, it was the right timing and I played it smart and I went and started another company. And so for three years I was inactive in the business. And something weird happened when I did that. I loved my company and I loved everything I was doing, but not being involved in it in the day to day, I lost a little bit of that love because I wasn't there. And that was hard for me. When you start throwing in what our industry's up against, when you look at plaintiff attorneys doing what they're doing, when you look at the CFPB doing what they're doing and everything's changing, it just became a thing where I just determined. I'm kind of burnt out. And I. And I felt it was time for a change for myself. And I don't know if there's going to be great timing. I think. I think, you know, if I look at the run of 25 years, it's not the best timing. But I figured, you know, what if someone sees the value in what I've created and they're going to want to buy my company, then it will sell. And that's what we did. You know, you helped me, and we found a buyer, and they were the right buyer. It was an incredible experience with them. They were first class all the way. And it was exactly how I hoped it would end. And we were able to pull it off. So really happy about that.

Let's talk about that a little bit here and the sale process itself from your perspective, because I know how it went down, but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. What matters is what you're sleeping with at night here. What do you think were the most challenging aspects of selling your business at this time? What kept you up at night, as they say?

So you know that question about the value, And I watched your podcast before. I've heard you guys all talking about it. That is a hard thing for an owner because, you know, you're always going to think your company is worth more than what maybe someone's going to offer, and their job is to get it at the lowest point that they can get it, and your job is to get it at the highest point that you can get it. And I think for me, the hardest part was, no matter what I said to anybody, all anyone cared about was the ebitda. That's all they care about. And I kept thinking, you know, if you were to put two companies next to each other and one company was completely different than the other company, and you just looked at the ebitda, that only tells you one piece of the picture. And I was really focused on all the other differentiators that we had. And that was hard for me because I think when you look at just the numbers, it really kind of strips away everything else about your company that you built. And it's an emotional process. So that was one of the hardest things for me early on. The second piece of the struggle of the selling the business was the unknowns and it was the surprises. The surprises you didn't see coming. Right. You know, expecting something to happen based on conversations that have gone down and then it changes. You know, you think you're going this way and you're not, you're going that way. And I think, you know, I think the unknowns and the surprises, you know, again, it creates a roller coaster ride and I think it was really surprising how long it took. You know, our process was 10 months. And honestly I thought, I thought it was going to be quick, I really did. I thought I had everything ready. As you know, I have, I have my playbook and I had all my files and I had all my assets. I had everything ready to go to show someone. And I was a little surprised how long it took. You know, that process is, it's a brutal process for time and I think I didn't expect that.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. And let's talk about that too. An average process in a sale from soup to knots, from the very, very beginning to money changing hands. It's about six months. In a typical marketplace, 2022 was anything but typical and continues going up to the midterm elections to be anything but typical. So that was one hurdle. The other hurdle was, and if you don't mind talking about this, I just want to kind of put it out there conversationally, part of that process was with a different buyer. And as to no fault of your own, this process became kind of two processes in one. If you think about it. I mean, we went back to the well, because there were sophisticated buyers who thoroughly understood your business, were motivated by it. But there was this particular, we'll call them an outlier. And that outlier was attractive, but that outlier knew boo about your business. The outlier came in as a financial type, not a strategic type. And one of the things that from a self serving standpoint, I explain this all the time, but hearing it from you and hearing what lured you to that and what motivated you to kind of change in the middle and focus in on this different type of, we'll call them, industry buyer is a very compelling part of your motivation. Can you speak to that?

Yeah, that was big learning. That was big learning for me because I had never had any experience with private equities and you know, any types of financial buyers like that. And so I was just hearing things from all the advisors and you know, hearing people's opinions about it. And I learned real quick that when it comes to a just private investor, you know, a vc, whatever, and they don't know anything about the business, you're going to do a lot of educating, you're going to have to do a lot of training and you may have to do that before there's even an LOI in place. And I think, you know, I was excited about that opportunity because the thought of letting someone come in and let my company just kind of keep doing its thing and not make any changes and have someone say, look, we like what you're doing, why don't you just keep doing it and we'll just kind of be in that back end investor to support you. I thought that was great. When that didn't work out for us, I took matters into my own hands, as you know, and I, and I went to go pursue because you know, we wanted to find the right type of a buyer and I was very sensitive to that with my own company and very close with everyone in the company and it was a hard, it's hard to exit. Finding someone in the industry though, was a no brainer. Once I had a conversation with someone who knew what they were talking, in fact, once I talked to someone who knew more than me, I was like, I've been in this business for 25 years. You know, I don't get to talk to that many people who have that type of time in the collection industry. You're one of them, right? That's why I connected with you so well on our first phone call. But when I talked to the buyer and I realized he was finishing my sentences and I realized that he's got the culture and that he cares, I was like, this is the right buyer. And like I knew the education was done, I didn't have to teach anyone. He could teach me. And it was a, it was a nice feeling. And I think ironically, as much as I like, like the thought of someone coming in and letting us keep doing our thing, part of me feels I'm kind of happy like that my company kind of was dissolved in an asset cell and you know what I mean, the fact that it doesn't. The name stopped with me, right? So my company's choice recovery is no longer around anymore and I'm kind of happy about that. I don't know if it would have been real, real good for me to see the name still go on and like then all of a sudden I'm still attached to it even though I'm not. So I think it's nice to be able to like you know, close it and move on with my life and put that chapter to bed and kind of start that new expression. And I'd say my learning from that was that I'm not a good fit for private equity. I'm not a good fit for those financial buyers. They care mostly about one thing. And I just never had my eyes solely focused on money and financials. And I understand why they have to, but I was always about purpose. And I care about profit, but purpose was my primary aim always. And I think that's why that may have hurt me a little bit. You know, in the past, I've made decisions that maybe would have brought my numbers down a little bit, but I think in the long run, that wasn't the case. Our results were always stellar. And I think, you know, we focus on the people and we maybe overpaid the people, but it paid off. And I think, you know, I'm real happy with the way we did it and I have no regrets.

You know, your hat says boss, right? And we know that that's a logo and it's a great hat. But what it should say is no BS because really, I mean, I've dealt with a lot of companies over these years. I've dealt with owners who say when they are thinking about selling their business, which set of books would you like to see? The one that we show the IRS or the real ones? You know, and as I think about your business and I think about our relationship, one of the things I enjoyed the most, took me a little while to get used to it was the transparency that we developed in our relationship. Right. You were the brutal, God's honest truth. You're going to say whatever it is that you want to say, whatever it is that you want to say it. And frankly speaking, that works extremely well for you. That's your DNA. And I think owners need to understand that this is a difficult process. It's emotionally difficult, it's time consuming. It changes business dynamics, hopefully for the good. But there are changes, very dramatic outcomes. And then, of course, you're changing your lifestyle abruptly. Even if you're an absentee owner, you still think about your business all the time. A lot of times it's our biggest investment in our portfolio. And liquidity matters and being able to do that. But I want people to know that being a straightforward owner, that really delivers an important message but feels comfortable delivering it is your edge. Your edge is very, very reliant on individual people, but holding them accountable. Yeah, there's no really important. And you trusted me with your major asset in a conversation, I want to tell you how much I appreciate.

That's nice.

I truly do.

I think, you know, you have the same thing. I mean, you are very transparent. I think when I first called you, I knew in our first conversation I was using your firm. And you said that. And I'll tell you, you know, I think I agree with you. I mean, I think transparency is a big deal in business, and I think it's one of my biggest assets internally with my employees. I was that way, and they loved it. And it opened us up and built trust in a way that most employers do not have with their employees. And I worked really hard on that. It was unbelievable how it worked with the buyer. Being able to be transparent with. With them on day one.

Same thing.

I think they appreciated it. And we were able to cut through so much rhetoric and get to the heart of what we were doing, why we were doing it, and how it would get done so much faster than normally be done in this process. And then again, you know, the selection of a broker, you know, that's a process in itself when you get started. And I went through that process and I talked to different firms, and I got to tell you, there's a big difference between a firm like yours and a firm that has the big name. And there are some big names in Columbus, Ohio. You know, people sometimes will say this and that about Columbus, but Columbus is an incredible place for business, and there are some major companies here doing great work. And I'm in a nice network with a bunch of entrepreneurs. I called them all up, they gave me the names, I made the phone calls. And I got to tell you, there was nothing even to the conversation I had with you one again, because you could finish the sentence. You knew the industry better than anybody. The financial gems in Columbus, they couldn't. And so there would have been a huge education piece on that end that I just did not want to go down. And when you explained to me the team that you had and the pros that you have behind you, that got me really excited because I needed someone with that financial wherewithal that I don't have because I'm not an accountant. I don't have the ability to do the reports. And again, I'm a visionary. So it's a very different type of a role when you can have someone do what your team can do, which is put those numbers on paper and be able to broadcast that to potential buyers who need to see what they need to see, because they're fact Finders. And I'm not so, like to have your team be able to kind of have. Be the full package of knowing the industry, having whatever 30 plus years that you have, and having the team behind you with the, with the, you know, the case studies of doing these kind of deals, you know, everything from the seasonality of the industry, understanding what these people are going to be looking at, what they're going to be asking, and you combine that with your transparency. And for me, our experience was just awesome. And I've talked to plenty of people who have not had a great experience selling their company with their brokers, whether they felt screwed over or whether they felt that they didn't do a good job. And Mike, you are first class and your team is. I mean, it's highly recommended and it's a big decision. So I think you were fair, you were transparent, and I really like you. I think you're a good guy. So I'm glad that we were able to work together in the fashion that we did. But I'm really happy with that decision because it was a big decision.

Well. And a successful outcome for you and for the business here. But in large part, I think the real secret sauces within your business elevated your operation to a point where it's different in the marketplace. You had a couple of different businesses here I'm looking at within your business. Right. Let's talk about those things. You can talk about them by name if you want, because I think both of them. Let me explain to the audience why I even think that this is necessary. Okay. I've been putting together deals now for more than three decades. As you said, it's tedious, it's time consuming. I do have an extraordinarily bright team. I will put Michael Thomas up against anybody, anytime, anywhere. And the team, it was just, it was great. It kind of worked well within your environment. And we, we get shit done, but I thought we knew how to deliver a message. And then I met Playbook and I was like, oh, my God, you gotta be kidding me. This is like amateur league just moving up to the major leagues. Do you want to talk a little bit about restart? Do you want to talk a little bit about Playbook? Do you want to talk a little bit about your. And the reason I'm bringing this up is not just in the confines of your successful business. These are assets that were, I'm going to call them, left behind. These were not part of the integralness of the deal that compelled the buyer to acquire choice, which is great. Right? That's great. It's a great deal. You got what he wanted, hopefully. You got what you wanted, hopefully. And everybody kind of separated from the transaction with a closing. And that's the key, right? The deal closed, funded, everybody was happy, blah, blah, blah. But now we're talking about what's left. And what I think about is this industry could benefit from some of the resources that you've established within your own business, and the limitations are no longer there. So maybe, I don't know if you want to do this, but maybe the availability of restart to some of your brother and from this former industry might be appropriate. So with that in mind, you're speaking to an owner. Why are your attributes of your business different?

So I'll first talk about restart. So my vision with my company and the collection industry was to change the perception of collections. I stamped it on the walls, talked about it in every single interview. And, you know, my, my defining, you know, way of seeing leadership is just by having the ability to influence. And when you have a team of people that are highly engaged and they trust you and you trust them and everyone's working and you have synergy and you've got flow. We had a leadership program in. So we really worked really hard on just that, that employee, employer relationship. And I had a big vision, and it was a big dream, and I shouted it from the mountaintops, and they heard it from me, and they never stopped hearing it from me. And I was in a leadership practice with my team in 2013, and one of my employees said, how are we changing the perception of collections? Being nice is great, but at some point, everybody realized in our industry, you have to be nice or you're going to get sued and clients aren't going to use you. So everyone was being nice. And so I couldn't keep saying that. Anyways, I reached out to Bill Bartman. Bill Bartman is no longer with us, unfortunately, but he used to buy debt and he did something similar, something odd in the industry where he was helping debtors and doing all this cool stuff. So I called these guys up, talk to them, brainstorm with them, and they helped me kind of just think through some of the things I wanted to do. And I ended up pulling one of my collectors off their desk, and I told her to start helping people find jobs. And she wanted to change people's lives. So restart kind of was born inside my collection agency by helping the debtors who say they're not working and can't pay their bills get jobs. And a long story short, we Got good at it. And I ended up having to take it out of my collection agency because it was kind of weird having something in the collection agency and. And, you know, with the laws that we have to abide by. So I took it out, I got an llc and you know, fast forward years later. You know, we're the only collection agency in the country that we're helping people get jobs. The clients went crazy about it. The press and the media ate it up. And the cool thing about what ended up happening was is that when you have other people telling your story for you, that's like marketing gold. And I didn't have to tell the story because we had job seekers, debtors, consumers, paying consumers that were unemployed and not paying. Our clients end up gushing about us. And I didn't realize what was happening in my business as it was happening, but it became my number one recruiting tool. It attracted people like crazy. It was why we were the best place to work because of Restart. I definitely give it all the credit. And the media picked it up and the clients went nuts with it. And when Covid hit and I stepped out of my business, I became friends with someone who was a software developer and we built technology to support this effort. And I basically created it for a collection agency. And since Choice Recovery was the exclusive agency, the only ones who could use it, I customized this thing to collection agencies in a way that allows the agency to press one button and they're done and they get all the credit. And as soon as you find out that someone isn't working or they need to get back on their feet or they're in debt, and you say to them on a collection call, well, we can help you get a job. It creates crazy trust and weird conversations like, you're a collection agency, you're going to help me get a job. And we say yes. And people look it up and they find it online. And so we basically built an online career development platform to support any business. I'm just specifically focused on collection agencies right now because I just sold my business. And it's basically just to give them that winning edge, not only from the marketing, but from a conscious capitalism kind of a take, which is people can't pay their bills if they're not working. And I think everyone sees that inflation is just through the roof, interest rates are going up, the economy is tough. And they say in the next decade, 80 million jobs gone by automation and technology. So what's going to happen to all the people who you're expecting to pay their Bills, they're not going to have jobs. So we have a solution for that. And so it's a really cool platform and it's at join restart.com if anyone wanted to check it out. But I have to tell you, I'm a little picky with who I bring out. I'm only going to be partnering with people and collaborating with other visionary leaders that I want to. I joked the other day and said I'm retiring because I'm retiring from people I don't want to work with and I'm retiring from things I don't want to do. And I've learned, you know, that those, you know, when you made a comment about the 500 pound gorillas I've had, I've had a couple and they, they did a number on me. So I'm not so excited about a big company calling and saying they want to be partners because they, they do things differently. And I like, I like the close relationships. I like the, I'd rather have less, you know, less clients that are more meaningful and more impactful than to have, you know, big client base with, with tons. And, you know, money's not the aim. So I think significance and purpose is and we built something special. It's really.

Chad, I mean, listen, kudos to you once again because you get it right. You realize that the consumer is in distress. The consumer probably wants to pay their bills. They're not fraudulent necessarily. There are bad apples and everything and those exist. But there are people who are motivated and they're looking for an out and possibly a job. And they are, they can go to. Indeed. Right. And they can go online to monster or job board and industry or whatever. But yours is different because you built it specifically with them in mind.

Yeah, well, it's not because I interviewed a thousand thousands of people. So the people coming in, interviewing for a job, it's the same audience. No one knows how to find a job today. It's incredible. People go to those indies, they fish through job descriptions, they spam the resume to employers and they don't hear back from anybody. And really the employers have the upper hand all the time. So who's fighting for the underdog? So we built something for the underdog and it works. And the technology is incredible. And so, you know, I think, you know, like you said, no one wants to be in collections. They find themselves in debt and what happens is they throw their hands up in the air and they give up. And so what's incredible is the biggest wins that we got at my company were not necessarily when we got someone a job and we helped thousands of people, but it was the support. It was, we have a career advisor who's helping, and they couldn't believe that someone actually cared enough to actually, like, be there for them and help them. But the fact that the technology gives them opportunities, lets them do things so they don't have to go fish on job boards, you know, it just makes sense. I mean, it's like, it's just. It's a nice solution. And they don't pay for it. Because what we. How we set it up was my collection agency paid for it. So I integrated and collaborated within my own companies. And, you know, you can imagine when you tell a client about this, you know, in our industry, you know more about this than I do because I never got into it. But early out is a term that gets thrown around in our industry like crazy. And I have to tell you, as a salesperson, I used to hear about it all the time. And what I learned was clients just wanted a cheap way to get low fees or not really send someone to collections, and it was because they didn't want to necessarily send someone to collections. Your brand matters, your reputation matters. And one lawsuit can, like, really put you in the news. So when you have a good feel story, people want to be part of it, people want to connect to it. And I think when you start getting testimonials and you can leverage those clients. I've been in meetings with, presentations with clients, and as soon as they heard about this idea, they're like, we'll use you. It was like, incredible.

We have a long, long, long list of consumers sing your praises as a result of something like that, which, by the way, in the headwinds that we've experienced in the collection industry for decades now. It's kind of nice to have wind at your back sometimes, isn't it, Mike?

I had. My office was wallpapered with what I called love letters. The letters from consumers saying that if they ever in collections, they. They want us to call them. People gushing. And I used to read these to my staff at the end of each month. And it. It did something to us and it brought us together. It gave us a shared common purpose that put our culture. You couldn't match it. I mean, it was like. It was special. It was really. It was. I have to tell you, it was hard to exit because I built something with these guys and it was. It was. I mean, you say magical. It was magical. We had something really cool that most companies can Never taste or feel. And the fact that we did it at a collection agency makes it really a cool story. Right? Because most agencies are running people in and out. And I think we'll go into Playbook. So Playbook was another company that I came across a few years back. It's an online management lms. So basically, I came across this company, and when I saw what it could do, I realized it would solve at least 10 to 15 problems that are chronic problems in my business that I know everybody deals with. Onboarding and training. Repeating myself 10,000 times, having to keep going over that every time you hire people in, being held hostage by employees who are the only ones who know how to do something in your company. Core processes in your business, having everybody follow them. And when Covid hit and everyone went home, remote training. So what Playbook was is this online management system. And I ended up investing in the company. I'm now a partner in the company. And it came in handy when I showed you everything, because I put everything in Playbook. And we trained employees before they started the job. You got a job with my company. I sent you a Playbook, and it went over my core values. It told you my story. You can meet the team. When you came in on day one, you already knew people. You saw them in the videos. And what was really cool is I remember walking by my hr. Her name is Ken. She's great. And she was repeating herself over and over every time new employees started with HR stuff, we ended up taking all her stuff and putting it in the Playbook, and then we'd give it to people before they started. They came in, she sat down. Now she could just talk to them. They already have all the paperwork, all the things necessary, and it literally elevates people's jobs to the point where, I mean, we lost our trainer at the time, and I didn't have to replace her because we had everything in Playbook. It was unbelievable. So I was gone, not as an operator for three years, and I was still training people in the company with certain processes and certain things because they can come in and watch the Playbook. And so it's been. It's been fun.

When I say Chad, people say to you, chad, I have a handbook.

Yeah, Ryan, right.

And you laugh. Why do you laugh? Because this is night and day different. Hey, how's that handbook working out for you when your HR person has to get down and talk with everybody every day about the same topic until she or he is blue in her face and wants to leave? Well, Playbook is an efficient tool. I listen, we've, we wrote the SIM for your business, right. And it's fine. And whatever confidential information memorandum, the SAM people know what that is. But you at the end of the day educated us and said, why don't we, when we're dealing with real buyers, why don't you let me use Playbook with them? And you did. And it was revolutionary. It really was. There's a place that doesn't exist currently that we should talk about offline. But when you talk about what distinguished you in the marketplace, I would say it's leadership skills, risk tolerance, ability to get shit done and take chances in an industry that is fraught with people who do things the same way, the same way over the years. And you know what? That same model doesn't work because we're dealing in a regulated, highly litigious, very consumer centric world right now. And if you're approaching this thing differently, yeah, you're taking a huge risk. But if you also, if you approach it with discipline, which you've done, and you instill trust, but also accountability, the outcome is terrific. And look what you've accomplished for yourself. You still have these business areas outside. So let me ask you, it's all said and done. What's now in your, you know, you're 23 years old, you're running a business here and young guy and no, seriously, I talk about age here. We're around the same age and you just look better than me. But when I think about it, what's, what's next in your, your, your repertoire. And also, and maybe you want to talk more about this. What would you want to, what's a parting shot with an owner that is thinking, hey, you know, maybe I should be selling my business, hey, maybe I should call that local broker. I don't want to make this. Excuse me, I'm all choked up. I don't want to make this extremely self serving because that's not what this whole thing is about. But what's next for you and what would you impart your wisdom on with an owner as kind of a parting shot to what you're talking about?

So I was really glad that I got to kind of walk away. And I still have these two companies, Playbook and Restart, they are definitely special companies. And the fact that I was able to create something and then integrate and collaborate within my own companies, it really did create differentiators for us. And not because I'm not like competing, I'm ready to find partners in the collaborative aspect and Make a difference in other people's businesses and share my experience and be able to give these resources and tools to individuals who can see the value in them. And because I kind of prove they work, the credibility is there. And I love helping people. I'm really excited about finding the right fit of the type of collaborative partner that can take this and run with it. Because the Playbook is no brainer if it's training and onboarding. But for restart, if you think about first party, third party, you think about any big company that has people who pay them, people can't pay their bills if they don't have a job. And I think you never think that a bank, for example, you know, might want to help people get jobs. But why wouldn't you want to help jobs? You don't want to foreclose on somebody. I never met anyone who said, I love turning people over to collections. Never met anyone who did that, said that or whatever. So if I can provide a tool where you don't have to do any work and it's been done for you and technology will allow you to scale it, I'm thinking I got a winner. I really believe I got a winner. I don't know what I want to do with it and I think the opportunity is just going to kind of come in my lap because I'm not going to start pounding the pavement and selling it. I don't think it needs to be sold. I think it just needs to be shared, exposed. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk about it and so be it. If anyone hears it and they think, well, I'll. I'll take a look at it, then look at it.

What is that URL that you said earlier? Let's make sure we get it very clear.

Yeah, it's join restart.com and I'm easy to get.

J O I n join restart.com One word.

Yep.

Okay.

And I do demos for people and I can just send people. I usually send people a playbook and they can see it. And so inside of a Playbook so I don't have to waste my time or their time. They can look at whatever they want to look at. And that's what.

Is there a separate URL for Playbook that people should look at?

Yeah. So Playbook Training IO is the Playbook site. And yeah, I've got everything up there. And, and I'm really, you know, give demos too. And I can just send people copies of the Playbook and they can see it. The cool thing about what I've been able to do. And where I think I can add a lot of value in the collection industry is a couple areas. One is that there is a branding problem in our, in our industry there is a negative stereotype. And so these types of products, whether they're internal that you're using them or externally, they help, they work towards good brand protection, which I think people need to do. And if you're not doing something today, think about customer service and giving people a good experience. Your employees, you're going to lose employees, you're not going to keep people and you're not going to be able to run a good company if you don't have good people. And if you have people who are now online more than ever, bad reviews, one conversation with a collector that's negative, they're posting stuff on there, it could tear you apart, it could be on the news the next night and clients see it when they pull up your stuff. And I think that the brand recognition and the actual significant impact that you can have on people's lives, it's a no brainer. It's just a matter of does the organization have a leader that can cares. So I used to tell people that if you have a big heart and you care about people, you either care about people. And here's one thing I will tell you, I learned selling my business, you either make your people your number one priority or you make them a priority. And there's a big difference. Even though it's a razor's edge, you know, different scenario, I can make you into my employees a priority, but unless the number one priority they're going to feel when you make other things a priority. And if you pick profit before purpose, I'm not saying it's wrong, but people are going to feel it. And you can still put people in front of profit and run an incredible company and end up doing better just because you treated the people better and then they ran through walls for you. And I think that's, that's the key.

It's perspective, right? Some people might look at certain edges like Playbook or certain edges like restart as an expense. And they might look at it and say, all right, that's on the P and L. That's going to cost us X number of dollars. Boy, that's going to decrease our profit margin by 2%. And that's a cost. It's not a cost, it's an opportunity cost. It's an opportunity cost if you miss out on ways that improve the business. So, and I sit here and I've seen a lot of these. I've had clients over the years, Chad, who said to me, I'm getting out of the collection business because I built this power dialer for my collection business and scale and sell it as third party. A power dialer. I said, what the hell do you know about selling power dialers, let alone building power dialers and whatever. It's an entirely different business. I said, well, you know, we'll figure it out. And those typically crash and burn. But when you think about what you've accomplished within this business, you, you don't have to do this. You don't have to talk about why playbook or restart made a difference in your life. But it mattered to you. It was an effective tool. No one's running a charity in this business. We're here to make a profit. Profit has become a dirty word for some reason. Success is defined by sustainability and sustainable businesses require a profit margin in order to stay in business. Why not try and improve upon that? And you mentioned a guy like Bill Bartman. Bill Bartman reinvented himself. He was in the collection business as the largest debt buyer in the world, one of them. And we know how that crashed and burned and what happened there, which was just terrible. But he tried. But whether or not we're a Bill Bartman fan, and I'm not here saying that I am a Bill Bart department fan, what I am saying is I'm a fan of innovation. And if you walked away and saying that is a kindler, gentler approach that could be effective within my business, well then you walked away with a good nugget that you applied to your business effectively. And now at a young age, you continue to grow and operate yourself and your businesses as you see fit and you turn the keys over to somebody else and they'll run the business as they see fitness.

But also, you know, things have changed in 25 years. Like people always ask me about the collection industry and the one thing I learned was 2001, 2008 Covid. It was weird, you know, like if the, if the economy was doing bad, we'd get more business in. When the economy was doing better, we'd collect more money. So we just kind of always kind of were just doing our thing. It never really Obamacare did this. It never really affected us big time. Like we just, we just kept pushing forward and it didn't matter what happened. My biggest blip was when I lost one of the big 500 pound gorillas and they did a number on me and I had to lay People off It was in 2014. It was the first time I ever had that. But that was like, had nothing to do with the economy. And that was the biggest blip I ever had in 25 years. But if you're not doing something today, whether it be in technology, innovation, something different than you are, just like everyone else. And when you go to sell your company, you told me, Chad, the ranges about five to seven times in our industry, you gave me this range for like, value when I was pushing you about how much do you think I can get? And the difference in getting a higher range are these differentiators that people need to see. The people, your technology, your compliance, those big. They're the big buttons that people are pressing. And you know, the consolidation that's happening in our industry is incredible. I saw it happen in medical, with all the hospitals eating up all the small practices. Now watching it happen in our industry where the bigger companies are buying up smaller companies, it's almost becoming impossible for small companies to be in business. So I think acquisition will happen more as we move forward and push in the next couple of years. And I think people need to be prepared. And so you asked me what would I kind of advice would I leave with someone? A couple things I've thought about this, and that is one, it doesn't matter if it's a playbook or not. Start gathering all your docs. Like, I wish I would have gotten the due diligence list at the beginning, I would have been collecting information and it would have made the process so much easier. At the end, when I was. When I got hit with a mountain of you need to get this, this, this, and this. So I would have done a much better job tracking and organizing my contracts, my documents, my files, everything that goes in your disclosures. I would have done a better job with that. I would have prepared myself for those unknowns. Like, things are not going to go the way you thought. And even if you know that until your money's in the bank, you could change. And that happened and to us several times. But I would say, and you could speak to how I did this, but I took matters into my own hands several times. And as much as I depend and trusted on you and your team and the people in my office and my advisors, from my accountants and my attorneys, I went with my gut several times and I picked up the phone and I made phone calls when most people probably wouldn't have. And I think that's where the transparency helped a little bit. But I would say sometimes you Got to take matters in your own hands. If you feel like you know something and you want to go with it, I would rather do that than have regrets later on that I didn't. So I would say, you know, if you.

I'll tell you what, though. A lot of people in my chair might resent that. Right.

I'm sure they do.

In my world, though, what I welcomed was you listened, you formulated a strategy, you made a decision. It wasn't abrupt, it wasn't hasty, it was well thought out, and it was effective. There are times when the boss, as it says on your hat, needs to jump in and be themselves, okay? There. There's an important need. You're like, let me pick up the phone and call. And whoever it is, you fill in the blank there. That could be a heck of a lot more an effective route than me trying to do it or anybody else trying to do it, because it's still. It's going to have to be. Be discussed multiple parties. Excuse me. When I think. When I think about you and what's worked for you and the motivations that you've. You've put towards your business, I think about, you know, the outcome and I think about, you know, you making these phone calls. I've had clients who have said, you know what? I'm doing this myself. And it truly was themselves. And a lot of times those crash and burn for reasons that are completely out of our control. Yeah, but you were not only transparent about it, you were thoughtful about it, you were considerate about it and effective. So, you know, kudos again to you for doing what you need to do in order to get shit done.

I also remember several times I had to listen to you because you, you had to put me in my place with me being a little bit more emotional about it and saying, I want to do this. And you, you. You helped me see it from a different perspective that I. I couldn't see. And I remember changing gears, and I remember the flexibility that I had to have in order to make a conversation successful because I was steadfast on I'm right, and it didn't make a difference if I was right or not. What mattered was you're trying to get something done and that. And. And you helped me see that several times. I remember we did that.

Well, it's Friday. It's almost happy hour as I think about it. I'll say this has been a very rewarding experience for me and I appreciate it. But I think the hour that we just spent recording this discussion will be Rewarding to those who listen to it. I think they'll see a couple of tools that make sense for them. I think they may also say, you know, if I'm thinking about this event, eventuality of selling my business at some point in my life, maybe I should start preparing for it now. And I hope my phone rings off the hook as a result of that. But if it doesn't, if I get one phone call from a person who says, you know, it's different, that's going to be a meaningful relationship. I don't do business by the volume. I really don't. It's quality. At my age and my life where I am right now, having done this, I would have burned out a long time ago if I actually didn't enjoy it and enjoy the people I interact with. And you are an enjoyable person and I look forward to many hopeful, very meaningful business outcomes in the future with you. But I look forward to sharing this with our community. So thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I will tell you, I wish that when I started this process with you, you would have said to me, you know what, Chad, call this guy. Because I would have called someone like myself, right. And I would have crushed them with questions that would have saved me time, energy. And I would make myself available to people in the collection industry if they're trying to sell their business and they need just a sounding board or there's some advice or just, you know, what happened. I heard you say this. I would make myself available to take anyone's call, questions. And I wish I would have had that. So. So I think, you know, I could provide some value to anyone in our industry. I'm. I'm a big believer in our industry. It's a necessary industry. And I know there's a lot of great people in our industry. As much as there's a stereotype, there are great people. And I would always try to help anyone if they tried to call and they needed some advice or just wanted to kick around an idea. So I'm definitely open to that.

You've used the word mentor. You've had mentors in your. In your life that. Including when you were just in college and getting started in this business. Maybe now you are that mentor. Yeah. It's nice. You know, you're at that point right now where you're going to continue to positively impact people's lives. So thank you. Congratulations on all of your successes. I appreciate it.

Thanks, Mike. Thanks for everything you did for me. I appreciate.