Leadership Under Fire: Real, Raw, and Relevant

I'm excited to talk about leadership and talk about your role as a leader. What's been the biggest struggle?

You know, knowing when to express frustration in a healthy way. When someone doesn't do something that you expect of them, knowing when to praise someone and really, like, just finding that balance.

I guess we all have a figurative core, and that's. That's our six pack. In order to get one, you gotta work really, really, really hard, which is gonna be, you know, your. Your purpose, your principles, things that most people will never think about. And typically, what happens is a storm hits, it hits hard. A purpose is going to be a defining statement of your work. That's going to be what gets you out of bed every morning. It's very different than a big vision. If you look at any system where there is issues, usually the biggest problem is at the top. It's important to get clarity. And one of the ways to get clarity is to stop our brain from moving and thinking and jumping from one topic to the next. And so we take time to slow down and we ask a fundamental question. My question is, why are you here? So if I ask you that question, what do you say? So we're going to talk today about leadership. And I've always said, and my coach has always told me, you know, my. My coach is Chet Scott. He's the founder of Built to Lead. I met him in 2010, and he came into my office as I was deciding whether or not to go be a Dale Carnegie trainer in the public courses or. Or get coached by an executive builder who coaches CEOs. And a friend introduced me to Chet. And the story goes that I had met with them for lunch one day to just vet him. And he asked me why I wanted to be coach. And I told him I wanted to slow down. I said, you know, I'm just fast with everything I do. My brain is always moving at a mile a minute. I'm talking fast, I'm moving fast. I'm jumping from one idea to the next. And ironically, God had different plans. I tore my Achilles tendon about a week later. And I remember getting home on crutches and thinking, oh, my gosh. I asked to slow down, and here I go. I'm slowing down. And that week was the first week that I had my first practice with Chet. And Chet taught me about what we're going to talk about today, which is your six pack and your core and how a leader needs to have a strong core. And. And he put me on the floor in a plank position. So for anyone who doesn't know what a plank is, it's just a hard exercise where you have to kind of just stand on your. Sit on your elbows and your toes, and you balance your body, and it works your core. And he was proving a point. I didn't know at the time that we all have a literal core, and that's our six pack. Everybody's got one, and most people have it surrounded by a bunch of mushrooms because we've neglected our core. It could be with beer, it could be with food. It could be a lack of exercise. It could be whatever it is. But most people have a six pack.

It's just.

You can't see it. And in order to get one, you got to work really, really, really hard. And that's why most people don't have one.

Yeah, I was playing hockey. I was playing hockey last night, and for the last couple weeks, I've played. I have come home, and my back has just been killing me, like, firing up out of nowhere. And, you know, like yesterday I thought about it, and I sit at the computer a lot and don't move around a lot during the day, and I'm not getting any younger. And, you know, it's. It just doesn't work anymore to pick up after sitting all day and then go skate as hard as you can. So, I don't know. I got to figure something out.

And the parallel between that. The parallel between that and leadership, you just walk right into it. Because the only way for you to get out of that pain is. Is to put acute pain on your back, which is why when you have back pain and you go to get rehab, you know what they do? They put you through brutal exercises, and they make it hurt. And usually that acute pain hurts really, really bad. But it's the only way to get out of the chronic pain. And just like most leaders have tons and tons of chronic pain, we all have a figurative core. So Chet was teaching me about this literal core, about our six pack, and we. What you're going through at hockey, and just like, you'd have to go through rehab and strengthen up your back and go through some acute pain to get rid of that chronic pain. Every leader who has neglected their figurative core, which is going to be what we call our six pack, which is going to be, you know, your. Your purpose, your principles, your core values, the things that most people will go their whole life and never think about. You know, you neglect those. And typically, what happens is a storm hits. It hits hard. And that's typically when leaders Will say, I need help. And unfortunately, it's a little too late because you can't go get help once the storm hits. And so, you know, we always say with built to lead, man, you got to get going now because the storm's coming and every leader is going to get hit hard. And I got to tell you, it's hard being a leader. You're lonely, and you change the dynamics of the room. When you walk in, you got more people lying to you than anyone else. And if you're paying people on top of being a leader and not just being their direct report, you have even. Even more. So, you know, you really don't know the. The truth. You don't really know who's really going to be there for you. So I have. I have a lot that I can share today that I think is part of my builder's journey and just the learning that I had to endure and embrace. And it's been hard, and it's. It's evolved, and it never stops, never gets easier, and it seems to just get bigger and bigger and bigger problems. But I think. I think the compounding of that experience and that learning helps you be able to endure the next one that's coming. And so it's a. It's a lifelong process. You know, we. We say. We call it a whip. The whip is a work in progress, but it really is the three initials for part of the six pack, which I'll go into today. But I think that's a real good first lesson. It's. You have to deal with acute pain. You got to deal with the acute pain in order to get rid of the chronic pain. And if you think about back pain, it's a great analogy for the figurative versus the literal core. And, you know, it's the things that most people want to completely turn their head to. They want to ignore it. Because at the end of the day, it's not easy looking in the mirror and looking at yourself. And even harder having a mentor or a coach or a best friend or a family member hit you between the eyes with some truth and illuminate some blind spots that you're just not aware of. And a lot of times, they can see a lot more clearly than you can. Because unfortunately, most leaders are busy looking at everybody else's flaws and their issues and their character traits. They're not looking at their own.

So.

So it's a good introduction for. For Build to Lead and our six pack and kind of where we're going to go today. All right. Yeah. So Before I start, you got any questions about it or you want me just to roll into it?

Let's get into it.

Okay, so the first part is. And I'll ask you. I'll ask you, because this is the way we start Built to leave practice, and anyone listening can do the same thing. We ask everyone a question because we believe that in life, it's important to get clarity. And one of the ways to get clarity is to stop our brain from moving and thinking and jumping from one topic to the next one, beeping and buzzing from our phone to our tablets to our computers to our TVs. And so we take time to slow down and we ask a fundamental question. The question is, why are you here? So if I ask you that question, what do you say?

It's certainly a tough question. I guess you can get answered in many different ways. But one thing that I'm thinking about a lot, and one thought that came. That came to mind when you said that. And I would have answered this differently, maybe however many years ago, but I'm really looking forward to, knock on wood, being a father. And I think that that's something that I'm here to do in whatever way that means.

That's a good answer, Jacob. Because most people, you know, the number one answer to that question is when people first get asked that, why am I where? Why am I here? Why am I at this practice? You know, they. They really.

Maybe I'm biased because I know you, so. But, yeah, I figured you were talking more about here on Earth.

Wow. So the question's loaded because you can answer it however you want. So that's the best part, is that it really is where you are. And when you have a room full of people and we're doing, like a team practice, everybody answers the question differently. And Built to Lead is literally about your journey. It's about you figuring out who you are, how you want to live, what the most important things in the world are to you, and then making sure that your actions are. Are aligned with your beliefs. And so we start having people write about where they are. And most people never really put thought into that because they're just so distracted with so many different things that they have going on in their life. Maybe it's trying to have a family. It's their job. It's their performance. Who knows? It could be a whole slew of things, but we start with writing down what we believe, and we spend a lot of time on what we call our worldview. It's the first part of the Six pack. And it is one of the most powerful exercises that I've ever done in any of the professional development programs that I've ever taken. And it's hard, and people are confused. And yet it's the easiest, hardest thing you'll ever do because you have to get clear on putting pen to paper and writing down what you believe. Because. And I'll unpack this for you. We tell everyone to pull out their cell phone and we ask them, what are the main apps on the front of your phone? Because if you ask people who their biggest influence in their life is, a lot of people will tell you. Their parents, their coach, their teacher, a religious leader, whatever it is, right? And I would argue that most people's biggest influence is the apps on the first page of their phone. Because if you think about it, when you grow up, your parents are usually your biggest influence. They're teaching you everything they know. They're giving you all their information and experience. Or your best friend is. Or your teacher becomes that, or your coach. And that time is so limited. And if you think about how much time is spent on our phones today with everybody beeping and buzzing in your phone, whether you're sleeping next to it at night or whether you have it in your pocket during the day, you're getting all your infra information from specific channels that you chose. So everybody's living their own kind of private life in a way, because if you have Tik Tok and you have, you know, usa, you know, today, and you've got New York Times, everybody's getting influenced by whoever they let influence them and built to lead. Our goal and our purpose is to wake you up so that you can become your own biggest influence. And there's only one way to do that, and it's to block out all of the other influences, and it's to get really clear on what you believe. And all you have to do to really, kind of really grasp the essence of this is if you think of any leader, anyone that you look up to that you see on tv, that you know that runs a company, anyone that you know that you would consider to be a leader, hopefully you can think of a list of them. It's hard. It's really hard. I don't have a lot of people that I can look up to and say that they're a really strong leader that I would aspire to. But I would tell you that they all have one thing in common. And it is glaringly obvious once you see it, they all know what they believe doesn't mean they're right, doesn't mean that everybody believes in them. It doesn't mean usually most people, half the room hates them, half the room loves them. That's just what the role and the gig is with a leader. But they know what they believe and they know why, period. You could say what you want about a guy like Donald Trump, but he knows what he believes, period. You know, so a lot of people disagree with them, and that would be normal. And if you look at most leaders and companies, this is the case. And this is why it's so hard to build an incredible company. Because to get everybody going in the same direction, to get everybody on the same page, you have to win everybody over. And we define leadership by influence. Because leaders and strong leaders can influence other people. That's what they do. They actually can change your worldview. They can get you to see things and have a perspective that maybe you didn't have before, you buy into it. And then if they have a really strong vision and it's very clear, you can join forces, you can align yourself with their vision. And there's an amazing thing that happens when a strong leader can articulate their vision and influence and inspire other people around them to join the efforts and then all head in the right direction. And, you know, it's. That was, that was what my goal was for, you know, 13 years when, when I met my coach and we started down that, that path. And it's always easier to get a big vision and a big dream for your work. It's really hard to do it in your life. So we always tell people, start doing it with your work. But you can't really have a big dream and go after a big vision and get people inspired and influence everyone around you unless you know who you are. And so we, we start off with our first, our first muscle, which is our, our worldview. And we define it by saying it's like the matrix that you use to, to how you see the world around you, so that when things happen to you, every sing, run it through your filter and you could see what you believe about that, and then you can act accordingly. And if you just take any topic that we all deal with on a daily basis, take trust or performance when things happen throughout the day, trust is a good one. You know, you have, you have a worldview about that. You maybe not have thought about it, but you have one. And so I've heard people say, I don't trust until people earn my trust. Or they'll say, you know, like, I tend to trust people first, right? So I. I give people the benefit of the doubt until they burn me, and I get second chances. I don't change who I am. And I have some people who. I can't get through to them. I can't. They will not let the door down. And usually it's because of something that's happened in the past or a bad leader who took advantage of them. A personal relationship, an emotional scar. Everybody's kind of wired and has that baggage that has built their worldview over time. And so in Built to Lead, what we try to do in that first step of becoming a really strong core is daying out and getting you to put on paper what you believe about a whole slew of things. And we just get you writing about it. And it's a very powerful exercise. I'll tell you, Jacob, When I started hiring people, I was hiring kids out of college. I was a kid out of college, and I watched people go through this process, and it was unbelievable, like, transformational, to the point where I had individuals around me that were very insecure and very easily influenced. And by the time. By the time they were through their builder's journey and going through this program, they were, like, a little intimidating to me. Like, the challenges they threw back at me, the lack of fear because most people were scared of their boss. I mean, it was transformational. It was truly remarkable watching people go through that transition. And I went through it, too, so I got to get a front row seat to watching other people go through it. And obviously, there's a lot more pieces to the six pack, but this one was the. It's the bolt. And I think it's an attractive quality when you meet people who know what they believe and they know why. It really is. It's incredible. So I'm gonna go and just go through a couple other ones because I know our time is going to be limited. So I want to talk about the next one, which is going to be your purpose. And it's funny because purpose and vision kind of get blurred, and we make it really. At least I make it really clear and build to leave when I'm coaching people that your vision and having a big vision and a big dream, you think about it like Martin Luther King has his I have a dream speech, right? It's a big vision. He paints that big vision for you, right? It's a little cloudy. It's not something that, like, you have as a number where you kind of reach it as a goal. And in built. We call this our magnum opus. We call it our opus. It's like our labor of love. It's a, it's a Latin word, labor of love. And we always say, you don't want to loathe your job, you want to love your job. So unfortunately, a lot of people right now hate their job and it's sad that they have that. So we try to get people to kind of wake up and we've gotten a lot of people to kind of go jump out that, that door and they go out pursuing something that they love. And a purpose is going to be a defining statement of your work. That's going to be what gets you out of bed every morning. It's going to be that bolted down statement that says, this is why I love, this is what I get to go do. And it's very clear, it's very direct, and it's very different than a big vision. So I'll just use mine as an example. So I was challenged in my company. The story goes that I had a mission statement. I think I've told you the story. I had a mission statement that I made for six months and then nobody knew what it was. And then I got challenged and I didn't know what it was and I wrote it. So I got busy writing down what my big vision was. And it was to change the perception of collections. You know, people hated collection agencies. I had a bad rap. Wherever I went, I was embarrassed to tell people where I worked, and I wanted to change that. So I had this big vision to change the perception of collections. And every single thing I did, no matter who you were, no matter how you touched my business, my goal was to make sure that you walked away saying, oh my gosh, I cannot believe that's a collection agency. I mean, that was my big vision. It seeped out of me. Like people came in, they knew, and when I hired people, they knew what they were walking into, that I needed their help to be able to do that. And my defining statement, though my purpose and you know, was, was more clear about what I was doing. To come in to my office every day and build leaders and build an amazing company with a world class culture where people can love to come to work every single day. So that, that's what got me up every day out of bed and just on fire, just to go into work every day. So, you know, we, we teach people to get clear on what their purpose is. And you may have more than one purpose. You could have a purpose in your personal life, in your family life. At your work, you know, in your community. And so, you know, your purpose is kind of intertwined and it's a statement. It is that defining statement of your work. And your vision is going to be that kind of big cloudy, big dream that you kind of want to pursue over time. What I didn't know at the time and what I didn't realize, that was a little confusing when it started to happen to me as I started breaking through ceilings and growing as a leader, was that your opus and your visions, they change. You start to get a lot more clear in life on where you are and how you see things. And that helps you shift when you have to shift and it helps you adapt. I never saw myself selling my company, you know, this dream that I've been doing for 25 years, and I sold my company. And it's important piece to the, to the six pack is your identity. It's the eye and the whip. Because you have to know who you are. And if you identify yourself, like for myself, if I identify myself as an owner of a collection agency and I sell that company, what happens to my identity? It's gone. This happens to athletes all the time. They identify themselves as a professional athlete. Their career is over. And then who are they? And so you have to get really clear on what you believe. You want to have a very clear purpose statement about why I get out of bed every morning and what I'm going in to go do. You hope that you're pointing it toward this big dream and this big vision, this big magnum opus in your life, and you hope that you're doing all this knowing who you are and that your identity is clear to you. It's, you know, the names that you call yourself, it's the person that you want to become, and then it's being really honest with yourself about who you are and where you are right now in your life. Because again, as a work in progress, it's going to evolve and change if you evolve and change by working on yourself. And you know, it's crazy. I had close to 100 employees and there were probably only about 15, 20 people that showed up to build, to lead, practice. It just, it was mind blowing to me. You know, I just, I couldn't understand why people were not wanting. I was paying them to come into a leadership program.

Right.

And I think self help gets, gets a bad rap these days. And that's a hard thing for me to understand because I absolutely obsess about it. I love it. I want to get better in everything I Do if it's my relationship with you, if it's with my wife, it's with my kids, if it's with my dad, if my mom, my brothers. Like, I'm always just trying to get better and whatever I want to do, I'm not perfect. But I think, you know, that desire, that passion to always try to grow and build is there. And so they say, if you're not building and growing, you're dying. I'm not sure. What do you think about that?

If you're not growing, you're dying.

Yeah.

It'S an interesting thing. The first thought that came to mind, my brother and I were having a talk. And I mean, I think also there's. This is like, maybe a total tangent, but I think that society in general, like, this idea of growth for society leads to a lot of problems too. I, I agree with you on a personal level, I think, like, I don't know about dying necessarily, but I. I also value growth and constantly looking for ways to improve and get better, and I think that's important. But I also think, like, it can become toxic.

How so?

When you're too addicted to growth, like, I think that it's rare. Well, yeah, I don't know. I guess that was the first thought that comes to mind because it's been.

Yeah, if you think about it, we're designed to grow. Companies are designed to grow. Everything in nature is designed to grow. Your, Your kid is designed, everyone's designed. Everything is designed in this life to grow. So it wouldn't make sense that we're not designed to grow and evolve. And, you know, I always say, you ever have people tell you something and they kind of. They kind of hit you with, with some, Some. Some truth, and it opens up your perspective to a way of thinking that is almost the opposite of what you thought. And, like, you just get it and you're like, oh, my gosh, that's so true. Like, and I. And you know, that happens to me all the time. I have a lot of close people in my life, and I have a lot of people who are very smart, and I have a lot of people from. On the spiritual side and the professional side, my network. And I try to surround myself with people who, who challenge me and who, who make me better. And they know a lot more than I know. And they help me see things that I just can't see. And it is unbelievable that no matter how much I learn about things, they say the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know how much you don't know. And it's so true. And so I always laugh when everyone thinks they know they know something. Because if you think about the truth behind that, that means that if you've been a victim of having someone tell you something that you didn't know and you switched your mindset because all of a sudden you're like, oh, that makes sense. That means that pretty much that could happen at any time with anything that you know right now. Which means how can you be sure that you actually know what you think you know?

Right.

And it's true. And I think, I think there's, you know, because we're a work in progress and because they say there's, you know, wisdom with age, I think the amount of experience and the amount of lessons learned, it. There is a result of wisdom that comes with that and it's a never ending kind of a chase. So I hear what you're saying about a toxic, I don't know many people who are addicted to it and where it's.

Well, let me, let me give you an example because another thought came to mind. Like we were talking the other day about growing a company, growing this company that we're working on, and you made a comment too. And you're like, you know, once you take on more clients and you get to a certain level, then there's like, you, you want to grow and grow and grow. And I, I don't know how much you're like looking for that personally right now, for example. And so I think, like, I guess that's, that's what more what I meant in terms of like this addiction to constant growth. I think.

Well, I think right now one of the problems in business is that most businesses are about profit, profit, profit. I mean, the one thing you can say about our journey, Jacob, and just being full transparency here, I've been very clear about where I stand for quite some time. Doesn't mean I'm always aligned with what I'm doing. But like when I talk to you, I tell you, like, I have no desire to want to go grow another company and build another team and manage all these people. And do I, like, I've been there, done that, and I, I have no desire to do that again. I just, I'm doing different things now.

You're looking for growth in like another area of life?

I think, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I'm just, I love to pursue it and I love to chase down excellence in anything I'm doing. Yes. But I've gotten clarity on what I want and I think, yeah, one of the bigger problems today is that people, they haven't gotten that clarity. So when they go to get a job, they accept a job without knowing what they want, and then they take the wrong job. You know, then they're in a situation where they hate their job. And I think that's a problem for so many people because it's so hard to find a job you love, and then you have to find a company that you love. And. And here's the craziest part about it. I don't know that many great leaders at companies. I just don't. Right. And the ones that I know that, like, for example, my network people are built to lead. Going through that program, I mean, they're. They're the closest that I can think of because they're working on themselves. They're so. They're humble and they really. They open themselves up and they just. They're just good people, right? They're just good people. And I just. I like being connected to good people. But you have to be able to, like, realize that a great company, it starts with their leadership team. And so when people are going, and they're interviewing at companies and they want to know if this is a good company, all you have to do is look at the top, because where the leadership team goes, the company goes, Period. Period. And typically, the biggest problem in every system is going to be the CEO, especially if they're there. If they're not there, that's another problem. And that's one of the problems is that he's not there or she's not there. But if you look at any system where there is issues, usually not all the time, most of the time, the biggest problem is at the top. And most of the time, they want leadership coaches to come in and fix their team when it's them that needs to be fixed. And so, like, you know, with Built To Lee, we only work with the. The CEO first because we know, and I know firsthand because I was the biggest problem in my office. And when, When I started getting coached and he started illuminating those blind spots in my leadership abilities and capabilities, it's. We call them integrity gaps. An integrity gap is when you have a belief about how you believe certain things are going to be, and then you look at your actions and they're not aligned. So, you know, like, I've. I had so many gaps, and it was. It was scary once they started kind of bubbling up, but I started closing them one by one, moving towards, you know, getting better. And eventually they Again, your growth compounds, and the next thing you know, you look back and you're like, wow, look where I came from. Look how much hard work I've worked on this. And I've been able to do so much better either with your communication, dealing with conflict, holding high performers accountable, setting clear expectations. I mean, there's a whole slew of these things. In fact, when my coach first came in, I was complaining about the performers in my office because the numbers were down and they sucked, and I did the job, so I knew what they were doing. And so, like, it was hard for me to watch because I knew they could be doing better, and I'm complaining about it. And he looked at me and he goes, it's your fault. I'm like, how in the world is it my fault? Like, I'm a high performer. How is it my fault? He goes, they don't even know what their expectations are. And I said, oh, yes, they do. I said, 100%. They know what they are. He's like, yeah, call him in. I called in all the leaders, the high performers, and we. He asked them, what is the clear expectations that Chad has set for you for your numbers and for your what. What do you. How would you define your clear expectations? And nobody knew. Nobody knew, and nobody even had an answer. And meanwhile, as a leader, and leaders can probably relate to this, I probably had said it 10,000 times. Like, you know, I was very clear on what the numbers were and what I expected. But as a leader, like, guess what? Tough. You know, like, unless you have those things written down, unless you have beat it into them and said it 10,000 times and shoved it in their face and make sure that they repeat it back to you. You haven't told them anything. And it's a hard thing as a leader to realize that, like, you know, sometimes your words go in one ear, out the other, and I thought I was really clear. And the next thing I know, I realized, oh, my gosh. Like, my. My highest performers have no clue what's expected of them. And that day, we made a promise, and I took a productive action to go away and write down exactly what all my expectations were. And every team leader in my company wrote down all of their expectations for people on their team. And then when new people came into the company, they were given the expectations. And can you imagine the difference that that made in a culture like, we went from, like, zero expectations? Actually, the opposite. We went from people thinking there were expectations and getting upset because people didn't even know what they were to having clear, written down, documented expectations that everybody knew and were able to follow. And it built a culture of accountability, which is the biggest problem in most dysfunctional cultures is there's no accountability whatsoever. And it starts with having clear expectations so that I can say, hey, Jacob, like, the numbers are 10,000. Like, you didn't hit that. I got to put you on a performance improvement plan. I'll give you 90 days. Can you hit it? 90 days. Like, put it. Put together a plan. And then there's this, like, kind of like, journey that we can put people through to have a bar that we don't let people go down below that bar and have this chronic problem down the road where it's like, how long are they going to let Jacob stay around here? Like, are they ever going to make a change? It's one of the biggest problems that you'll hear in most dysfunctional teams is like, they don't fire quickly because they are scared and they don't want to confront that teammate. To say, you're underperforming because it's an uncomfortable conversation. And leaders have to get really comfortable having really, really uncomfortable. You know, the tagline is get comfortable being uncomfortable. You have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And that is so hard. It is so hard to do that. But, you know, we teach in strategic. Coach Dan Sullivan teaches the four Cs. He says you make a commitment and you have to have the courage to go. And in this case, you have to have the courage to have that hard conversation. And when you do that, you build the capabilities and it results in having confidence so that you can keep having those hard conversations with people. And now it's like getting out of bed. You know, it's just a matter of fact. I just need to talk to you about your performance. There's no. I'm not hiding it.

Yeah.

Problem is, most people sleep it under the rug. No one says a word about it, and next thing you know, a year's gone by, your numbers suck, you hate your job, you. You're not getting a raise, and I'm already looking for your replacement.

Yeah. But also systems for measuring numbers, too. You were saying that's interesting that, like, even though you're saying it, the. Just because you're saying it, people don't know. And having it. Having it written down so that everyone can look at it and agree on what's expected. That's super interesting.

You know, think about what it does. I mean, it puts us on the same page on day one. And, you know, the biggest problem Today, and I see all these articles about salary negotiation and people with money. And, you know, it was really a hard thing as a leader, right? So think about, like, people. People can just shoot the leader in the back. It's incredible, right? I mean, if you think about it, if I have people in my office making 20 bucks an hour plus commission, and there's a problem in the economy right now, and I have to start paying people more money in order to recruit, because things have changed. And the days of hiring people, $20 an hour is long gone. And I start hiring people at $23 an hour, and the person making 20 bucks an hour finds out about it, Am I obligated to pay that person 23? So that's a hard thing for a leader to have to grapple with. Like, what if I have a thousand employees? You know, you can't just, like, burn your company down because you want to be fair. And employees will say it's not fair. But I got news for you. And one thing I've learned with leadership, life isn't fair. And I'm sensitive to my employees. I always fought for my employees. I mean, as a collection agency, my goal was to get people to make a hundred thousand dollars. And we were able to get to a point where collectors were making 100 grand, and that was unheard of in a collection agency setting. So, you know, I wanted to pay, but it was a performance culture, right? You had. You had to earn it. You didn't just get it because you were there for 10 years. You had to. You had to hustle. And I think you have to learn as a leader to cheat towards your high performers. People don't like hearing that. But what happens is, if you don't cheat towards your high performers, because most people won't, they'll lean towards the low performers. Because I want to get you up to speed. I want to pick you up. I need you to do it because you're only as strong as your weakest link on the team. The problem is, if you're the weakest link and I'm focused on you and coaching you, I drain myself kind of talking to a brick wall. And meanwhile, my heart. Performers who are unbelievable kind of left to do their thing. If I focused on them, press them, challenge them, they could raise the bar even more. And when they raise the bar more, they are contagiously picking everyone else up behind them because they're setting the tone. And it's so fire.

If it's not working out, do you fire fast?

So my. My journey with, with hiring slow, firing fast. And that was like, that's the best advice I can have for an entrepreneur. You have clear expectations up front. An employee understands what they are, they agree to them. If someone's not hitting their bar, you have a conversation with them. It's not a hard conversation. It's, hey, how's it going? You know what's going on? I see your numbers are not up to par. I mean, you know that, I know that. Like, here's the expectations. What can you do? What, what, what can you change? Right? And then you had that conversation and then you check back in. Leaders have to inspect what they expect. You can't just like walk away and like expect everything to be okay. Like, you have to inspect it. And so if it's on a quarterly basis, a monthly basis, whatever it is that you decide as a leader, if I'm checking in with you, Jacob, and your numbers are not up to par, and we have that conversation and I ask you, what are you going to do different? Send it to me in writing. I want to help you. I'm going to support you. That's what good leaders will do. Even a good manager will do that. And if your numbers don't pick up eventually, then we have another conversation. Hey, that didn't work. Here's the deal. That's two or three months in a row now. Your numbers aren't up to par. I got to put you on a 90 day performance plan because I can't. You know, we have to protect our culture. And if you don't do that, which is hard to do, hard conversation gets easier as you do it. But when you fail to do that, then you have all these people who are below the bar. And it's your fault because you're letting that just now create a different bar that's like below par. And that's right, that's no good. So I give you that 90 day window. I. We help you put together a plan and you know, look, with a lot of help and support a lot of people, you're high five them after 90 days because they got off their performance improvement plan. It was like a positive thing. It's a good thing. But if not, then we do that check in, you know, with 30, 60 days left, and by the time they don't make it, we've had a couple conversations. There are no surprises. Worst thing a leader can do is give a bad surprise. I did this for so many years, and I think about it, I'm so ashamed of it. I can't Even tell you. I would show up someone's office on a Friday with a box, and I would say, I'm making a change. I had to let him go. I had to make that call. I had to do it. I wasn't having other people do it for me for, For a long time until I had to have help because we had so many employees. And people would ask, like, why? What happened? And I would literally, I'd surprise him out of left field.

But it was. You're probably surprising yourself in a way, too, because you didn't, like, it seems like. Oh, no, I, I, I meant, I meant. Yeah, but, yeah, but not maybe. I'm sure you knew, but knowing when to pull the trigger. Like, I think part of what comes with here's, here's.

I knew. And I knew for a long time I was too chicken to go say something. I was.

But you also, you also didn't have this, like, measured thing that once they cross a threshold. No.

When you have, when you have a team and you have people on a team and they suck.

Yeah.

And they're, They're a virus in your company. It could be because their attitude. It could be because their numbers are pathetic. It could because they don't come to work. You. You have a choice as a leader. You either put up with that or.

What if, what if you really like them and they're good for the team?

I. Well, how could they be good for the team? I don't know.

Maybe, like, they're, they're a nice person at the office that brings people together and is friendly.

So I had that. But the, the pros and the cons. The cons, you don't keep people because they're nice. Like, that's not how you grow a company. Right. And I did that, and I ended up having an office full of low performers who then were contagious to other employees. And it was, like, literally killing my culture. And when I started making these changes, we became a tougher culture, but the performance skyrocketed. I mean, it was incredible. And then you attract mass. Attracts mass. We started attracting other high performers. And because we had this bar, and I was just steadfast on making sure that people were going to go below the. I give people second chances. And, yeah, I had a lot. I hired nice people. It was brutal. But when I learned the proper way to terminate employees and there were no bad surprises, I was hugging people on the way out, and I was getting calls six months later saying, thank you for being tough on me. You know, we Say, with leadership, everyone who's listening to this can. Can take a lesson. We say tough and tender. You fall into one or two camps. You're either a tough leader or you're a tender leader. And it's a lot easier to be tender and become tough than to be tough and have to learn how to be tender.

Right?

I was a tender guy. I mean, I was. I had the box of tissues on my desk playing therapist every day with everyone coming to me crying. And I was solving all their problems because I wanted that help them so much. Bailing people out with financial. I used to joke my company was called First Federal Credit. I used to say, I'm First Federal Savings and Bank because I used to give everyone loans, and I'd have people steal money from me and then quit, and I'd still do it. And people say, you're dumb. And I'm like, okay, I want to help them. And so, like, you know, as a leader, you have to make hard choices, and it can. It can be really, really hard. You know, you can become real cynical. And I think that's why it's so important to, like, have clear, clear beliefs about why you do what you do and why you believe what you believe. Because as a leader, you'll get taken advantage of. There's no question. I mean, one of my hardest lessons as a leader was the fact that I built into this team for 25 years, and when I sold the company, I didn't have the exit that I had dreamed of or wanted. And it was a real bittersweet ending for me. And I really saw who were my. Who were my true friends. And I got to tell you, there weren't many. Unfortunately, there were a few. And I think that's normal. There's always a few. You're blessed if you have a few. But, you know, I watch people for 25 years, quit my company, and go on to bigger and better things. And so much so that we called it Built to Leave. We build them up, and they leave. And they use this as a stepping stone. But I used to joke and say, look, that's cool. You know, I get it. And if. If I can help you and support you on your journey, and while you're helping me on mine, you know, that's great. You know, we say with leadership, my way is the highway. It's not my way or the highway. You know, bad leaders will say, my way or get out of here. And a great leader will say, this is where we're going. Here's the direction. Come with me, challenge me, help me see things differently, align it with it. You know, we want. We want this alignment. We don't want vision, collision. Yeah, we have this. And I think that's an important quality for leaders to be able to, like, not shove down their. Their team's throats. That's like, you know, you either either do what I say or get the hell out of here. You know, it's not a good way to leave.

How do you deal with. Okay, so one thing that I know about you is that your mind's always firing and you have a million different ideas. And if we're working on a project or going in a certain direction, that can change. And the path often looks like this. And I think I'm the same way in many ways. We're both quick starters, and it's easy for me to understand, you know, when. When you're changing or when I am. We seem to understand each other and not get flustered just by the. Just by how much and how rapidly things change. But I feel, you know, myself among the dev team, for example, that there will be times where we're going to. We're talking about setting things up a certain way, and then my mind will change about, maybe we find a better way to do it, or I'll have a different idea of how to approach it. And I'm often. I find myself kind of, I don't know, just feeling bad, I guess that I'm almost like, burdening them with all of these changes. How do you deal with that?

So crazy. So in 2017, I became a Colby Corp trainer, and a Colby Corp is an assessment. And what they do is they test you and they figure out your style and they give you basically a kind of a score that allows you to know that when you're motivated towards a goal, what is your process? What's your way of going about it? And so, like, we're quick starts. We like to brainstorm and shift and go in different directions. My office was full of what we call fact finders. And fact finders, they need to have the bullets, they need to have things written down. And so the example you're giving, I had such a problem with that. My office and I used to drive people crazy because I like to brainstorm. I like to. And they were taking me literal. And meanwhile, I'd walk out of a meeting and my mind already changed and they heard something and they were holding me to it months down the road. And so I had a rule in my office that, like, if it's not on. If it's not on paper, I didn't say it because you can't hold me to everything I'm saying because I'm always doing that. And so I say it's a two way street. You have to know yourself to know that. That's your tendency. You have to be able to communicate to your team that hey, it's up to you to get clarifying answers to all your questions so that you do not assume that I was literal, that we're going to go do that idea. Like you need to ask. And so when people would get upset with me, I'd say, well, hey, hold on a second, you know, like you never even tried to clarify that. And what you heard wasn't even what I was talking about. Right. And I think there is a two way street. So I, as a leader and the leader has to kind of go first. They've got to be clear with, hey, you know, I'm going to share this with you guys and over communicate, over communicate, you know, we're not going to do this. This change is not coming. I'm just brainstorming with you guys out loud. You know, if it's not writing, it's, it's not going to be done. And if it is going to be done, it'll be in writing. And I'll make sure I communicate with that with you. And then if you're on the other end of that and you hear things that make you shake in your pants when you're sitting there and you're too scared to raise your hand and talk about it in front of the entire company, then it's up to you to send that email. Can I get two minutes of your time? You do a pop in. Hey, I heard you say this. I just want to clarify. Is, is this what you meant? And I've found that when people do that 90% of the time. No, that's actually not what I meant. What I meant was, and then they clarify it and I'm thinking, wow, they wouldn't have asked that question, right? They would have thought that. And it is why sabotage is so rampant in so many companies. Because something is said in a meeting, something happens, the person's too chicken to deal with the conflict, which is just a conversation to be had. And three months later they're working on a project and they're sabotaged because they don't even remember something you did to me three months ago. You said this. And meanwhile, if they just would have got it clarified, you would have found out that's not even what I meant.

Right, right.

And, and I think, you know, that's why we say leaders have to become master repair men, master repair women. Because you have to constantly fall back, circle back, and you have to be so attuned into your team that when you say something and you see people tweak, you see people like kind of go like this, you could people's micro, micro messages they're sending you. And I typically see it and I stop the meetings. I'm like, what did I just say that made you. What are you thinking right now?

That's.

I see it every day and I, and I call it out because I've just had so many bad examples where, you know, I just was taken the wrong way. Yeah, scary sucks. It's hard to be a leader. It's hard to be a leader but say, don't want to be a leader, Run, you know, I mean, you're, you're on an island, you're running solo. You have to make the hardest decisions of anyone in the system. And many times when that decision is a lose, lose, or worse, worse lose, lose, I gotta tell you, it sucks. Like you have to make a decision as a leader and it runs ripples through your, your system and it's not good. And that's just a hard thing. And I think it can take a toll on you. It really can. That's why, and that's why you have to have a strong core. And that's why you have to have a real strong belief system, a purpose that's driving you into work every day. The one thing we didn't get to because our time's running out is to have principles that you're living by. These are your bolted down principles. And these answer how you want to live your life. So when you can get clear on what you believe and why, and you know who you are and you're driven by this purpose, pointing at this big vision, and you have bolted down principles and core values that you stand by, you become a really strong, influential, one of a kind type of a leader. And that's why I say it's rare. Because if you think about all the people in your life, how many people do you know that are like that? And I, I can only tell you there's a few that I can think of off the top of my head. And that source we say, and built, it's like the melody line, what the melody line of built lead is. There's always a few, which ironically you only need a few. You don't need everybody to do it. You need a few. And it's hard. It's hard and it's painful. It's just painful making those decisions and, you know, having the hard conversations and dealing with the conflict and it's, it's a tough thing. It's not, it's not easy being a leader.

For sure.

Yeah. Who's the strongest leader you've ever worked with?

Probably you.

Well, I mean, just. Thank you. But I mean, just like when you.

Think about, like, I thought Obama was a terrific leader. Maybe just Obama.

Right.

In the way that, in the way that he carried himself and, and spoke politics. Like, like that's not a comment on politics or anything. I just meant like, if you look at the person, there was something about the way that he carried himself and communicated with people that I think was really, was really strong. Yeah. Another.

So he knows what he believes and he knows why he does.

And so here's. This is another one that came to mind when you were talking about knowing what you believe earlier and thinking of. And when you were talking about leaders, this was a random one that came to mind. But I watched a Chappelle comedy on the weekend and he's, he's one of my heroes. But that's, that's a guy who knows what he believes. Yeah, I probably disagree with him about a lot of stuff, but like, man, he's, he knows what he believes and he says it and he's, he's just so brilliant at, at communicating that in obviously a hilarious way.

Let me tell you something. I hate even bringing up his name because what happened to him recently in the news was just so pathetic. But when you YouTube Will Smith, there is a 9 minute, 43 second YouTube video that I've probably watched about a hundred times. I think it's under Best motivational speech.

Yeah, you sent it to me. I remember.

It is the best example of everything that we're talking about. I mean, you talk about someone who, who knows what they believe. Now what happened with him and Chris Rock is a perfect example of how a leader can do one thing and then just crash. Like, people aren't very forgiving to leaders. Right. Like anyone else does that. You never hear a word about it. Right.

But I would, I would guess that the, maybe one of the problems here, just thinking about our talk is, you know, he got offended because someone made a joke about his wife, but it was Chris Rock making a joke. He's a comedian and I don't think he would have gotten so upset if, like, there's A whole story about all of the sexual encounters that happened in the relationship. But there's probably an integrity gap there in terms of what he actually feels and what's going on at home that triggered something deep there.

And how about this? He's human.

Yeah.

He lost control of himself. And guarantee he. You know what? And to every leader, it happens. Here's the difference. People aren't very forgiving to leaders.

No, but they should. They also, like in his case, that was like, you shouldn't be forgiving to that.

Yeah, okay, fine. But guess what? People have made worse mistakes.

That's true.

I've made crazy mistakes. You have. Everyone does. The difference is, is that if you're a leader and people look to him as a. Yeah. People aren't very forgiving. They're quick to just tear you down. And that's why, again, when we say it's hard to be a leader because, you know, you've got focus on you now, granted, his situation a little magnified on tv and, you know the way. But still, I think it's a good, you know, It's a good 10 times kind of an example because it was put on a grand stage for everyone to see people. We're still talking about it. And that just shows you that you know, when you're a leader, you're on and it doesn't matter where you are. You got to be really careful because people are watching.

Right.

You know, you're. You're always on. And that's a hard thing. It's a hard. People aren't so forgiving. They're forgiving to themselves. They expect everyone to give them a second chance, but they're the first to kill someone and shoot them in the back when. When they do something.

Right. Kobe Bryant comes to mind, too. He's one that every time I just watch anything about him or listen to his interviews, he gets me fired up.

Yeah, he was.

He was. What did you say? You're either a tender or a tough one. He was tough to the core. Like, you watch some of the practice videos of him and he is like. Like, probably to a toxic level, but that was just him and he.

Right. Yeah.

I don't.

I don't prefer the tough.

Yeah.

And I don't like working with people who are tough because it is really hard for them to learn how to be tender.

Yeah.

And it doesn't mean that you got to be someone that everyone's going to walk all over, but you got to have empathy. You got to be able to put yourself in People's shoes. You got to realize that if you have entry level folks that you don't have a clue what it's like to make that kind of an income. And for me, at least, I started off making eight bucks an hour. And I never lost any essence of like, what. So I was always very sensitive and I just always kind of had a hyper, I don't know, hyper focused attention to, like, fighting for the underdog. And because I, I just like to help people. I just never kind of got away from like, trying to help anyone in my company. I didn't care if they were entry level or not. And I think, I think that's why I had a good relationship with people in my company. I think that's why people liked it. But it's funny, as I exited, I lost that and there were too many people. And it was, that was a hard thing for me. I lost some of the passion of, like, leading because I couldn't. I couldn't do what I had done for so long to build the company. And, and now when you think about what you and I are doing now and being remote, it is a completely different world now. It's like, completely different. It's a whole new animal. And we're working with people overseas.

Yep.

Which kind of changes. It's the cultural difference.

And there's a huge cultural difference. I noticed, like, just.

Yeah, I like it. I actually like it.

I like it too. There's. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just saying it's very different. You know, when I, when I, when I think about today, There's a sense of entitlement that people have here that is unrealistic. And when I think about what I had to do to get to where I have, have gone, it was years of pounding. It was, it was doing sales for 15 years. It was being a collector for the first five years. You know, I put my time in and I think people today, like six months in, they're not happy. And I'm like, you've been here six months. And to them that's like forever. And I don't know, there's a sense of, of entitlement that I think is just deadly to companies right now. That if you have. It's just, it's just hard. It's a lot harder today than it used to be.

Yeah, Yeah, I, I agree with you 100 about that. And I, I do think so. For. If, for anyone watching, we work with a lot of people from India and I think there's a level of just humility. That I've witnessed in that culture. That's very refreshing. The one thing that is challenging, I will say, is that there's also. This was kind of true to some extent, too, when I. When I worked in Korea, is that people are. They don't want to disappoint you. So oftentimes, if you, you know, you're trying to explain what a task is or whatever, they're almost. If they don't understand. I've noticed that, like, they're a little bit hesitant to ask questions because they don't want to come across as, you know, that they don't get it. And that can lead to some challenges at times.

For sure it is. And that's why knowing that, I walk into that and I coach people and tell them, like, they can't screw up more than I screw up because I make more mistakes than anybody, and then I keep it light. This is where building relationships with people and, like, having, you know, the ability of, like, being able to, like, get the best from somebody. And at the heart of performance is trust. And so when you have trust and you open up the door, if you remember what we did with our dev team is I open up the door to say, like, what's your biggest pet peeve that I do? And how can I be a hero to you? And we've done exercises that have kind of, like, broken down the barriers of fear. We forget that we've done those things, but there's a reason why we have such a good relationship with these guys. And I think, you know, that comes with trust. And it all starts with what you believe about trust. And I believe that trust is built over time through consistent actions, words, and behaviors. And I also believe it's very fragile that you can break trust very easily. And I believe that you should give people second chances. But there are exceptions where maybe people don't deserve a second chance. And that is the complexity of being a leader. And I always joke with my. My. With Chet because, you know, everything's a paradox, and, like, there's contradictions that just run through leadership.

Yeah, of course.

Because contextually, like, yes and yes and sometimes no. So, like, it all depends. And you just have to kind of deal with things as they come. People are very complex, and people change. We change. And you kind of just have to take things day by day, right? And you have to kind of take lesson by lesson and learn from your mistakes and get better. And so I'd rather err on the side of being obsessed, even at the risk of it being Toxic. Because I'll tell you why. People have always called me intense. You're so intense. And I, in my mind, I'm not. I just, I love what I do and I'm very passionate about what I do. Sometimes I can come off the wrong way to people. I can be intimidating. It can come off arrogant. If they don't know me, like, you know, I mean, and I get that about myself. I totally understand that. I know who I am, though, and I know, like, I know how much I don't know. So for me, I can laugh at myself and I can joke about it, but I think, you know, there's a sense of that self awareness piece of it that really strong leadership are tuned into and they, they talk about and they work on things that they're good at and they're humble and open about the things that they're not. And then they connect with other teammates who can fill those gaps and be and do what they can't. And I think when you can do that and you can rally your team, you've got flow. You've got this thing that they call chemistry on a team, right? Few teams ever, Few teams ever taste it. And you can have it with me. And you have had it. And I think it's a special thing when you can have it. It really is. And you really can't take it for granted. You really have to harness it because it doesn't last forever. People change. And if you have it, you should really kind of hone in on it and try to, you know, multiply it because you can always do more with others than you can by yourself. So it's a cool thing to be able to like, just come to the realization that that's, that's the case, you know.

So, yeah, I see that debate happening a lot on, on Twitter. There's like a lot of, you know, there's a whole like indie hacker culture, let's say, which is like kind of, you know, solo entrepreneurs who are just building software and that's a whole community online. There's one guy I follow who has built many successful businesses by himself that are still making a lot of money. And then he started this other AI company and this, he just made a post the other day where it's like, this is his first time hiring people and he's dealing with all of the challenges that come with hiring people. But what was interesting about his post is he's just grappling with that realization that he, he needs people to do what he wants to do with this One business in this case. And it's the first time, I think, where he's like, he can't do it alone. So.

Well, you know, it's interesting. And there's a big push right now for these solo entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

Who are create, who are creators who are able to use and enhance AI technology to be able to do things they've never been able to do before. I'm actually trying to do a lot of that myself and my personal brand. And it's an incredible thing that like, you can do things today that you've never been able to be able to do in the past by yourself. And that's a, that's a, that's a tough thing that people are gonna have to grapple with. Moving forward now is like, do I want to go build a company? It's harder and harder to be in business. It's harder and harder to get people to recruit. You hear everyone complaining about hiring people. You know, my dad works with me and I've never seen anyone work harder than my dad. My dad is by far the hardest work I've ever seen in my life. The guy won't take a day off and I'm like, I'm begging him to take a day off. And you just, you don't see that people are doing everything they can to not work. They want to get out of it. They want to like, you know, and I, and I think there is something to be said about, I can't believe I'm even saying it, about working on a smaller team or if you're able to figure out and crack the code yourself using tools and using all the different, you know, technology. And I think you're going to see a lot more of that, I think, I think so. Days of entry level folks and companies haven't. I think the power has shifted to consumers. And I think you're going to see a lot more of that creator world kind of bubbling up and when Web3 is a bigger deal. And you know, we're early on right now, but people are going to be their owners of their own decentralized platforms and websites and channels and whatever it is. And I think we're seeing it right now with YouTube and online creators. They're blowing up right now, you know.

Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think it's heading that way. I mean, even if you just think about video editing, like, yeah, like just all of these tools, I know you're, you're buying tools every day and using them and like each one of those tools, they're not. A lot of them aren't there yet, but they're getting there really fast. And some of them are there. And those are. Those are jobs that just don't need to exist.

Some of them now brand new, are better. Right. Than the people that I can hire.

Right, right.

And they're not even close to where they're gonna be. So, like, it's a game changer. And I think people gotta wake up.

Yeah, I think so.

It is gonna just shake things up. You know, I keep hearing everyone say this one line, we can end on this. They keep saying, I keep hearing this. There's this debate right now in every article, will AI replace jobs? It's all you hear about, right? And you hear one camp saying, no, it won't replace any jobs. It'll enhance. It'll. It'll be side by side with human beings. And then you hear the other side saying, well, heck, yeah, it's going to disrupt so many industries. And it already is. Like, wake up. I heard. I've been hearing people, though, say, if you sit in front of a computer, you're disrupted, period. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Because everyone I know is in front of a computer and it.

And.

And I can see it. Like, I can see it. I see it on a daily basis. I'm so consumed with, like, learning. And like you said, I'm trying different tools and I'm seeing what's out there and trying to maximize my time and energy and. Jacob, it's incredible. I mean, I know. You know, but like, I just wish I could wake people up and say, like, wait, I think.

I think people are scared. I was at my mom's. I know we're. We're over time here, but I was at my mom's place on the weekend and with my mom and my sister. And my sister is in school for massage therapy right now, and they still have, you know, tests. And she was telling me that, hey, people are like, using Chat GPT to do these tests. I was like, yeah, obviously. Of course they are. Like, why wouldn't you? And I'm. She was telling me that day about work, that she had to do some homework. That sounded just like the perfect task for Chat GPT to do. And I don't even mean to, like, cheat and get Chat GPT to do it. Like, the way I look at it is the same way that you would do math with a calculator kind of thing. It's just like, it's a tool that will make you better as a writer, even if you're just using it to brainstorm or whatever you're using it for. But I noticed with my mom and my sister, there's this, like. There's this hesitancy to do it. I don't know what it is.

It's.

I think it's just, like, fear of unknown, maybe. But I think you have to use it or else you're going to be screwed.

Here's what's so crazy, Jacob, is that we're using it and we're using it on a high level, but yet there are so many things that we already. We don't even know are out yet and already out. I mean, it's like it's so far past us already, like, you can't keep up with it.

I know. I know. It's wild.

It's a game changer. We're in a different era. There's no question. It's a whole new era. Yeah. And you know what? It opens up the door for a whole new era of leadership, too. They already have.

You think it's going to make it more difficult for leaders or easier?

Yes.

For both.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, good talking to you. Good conversation.

That was fun.

Don't be. Don't be a leader.

That's the moral of the story. Yeah.

Don't be a leader. Run. Get out of here.

All right, thanks for watching, everyone. See you next time.