1 TikTok Shop Millionaire vs 10 Haters

I think selling courses are for people with soft hands.

I've never worked a real job.

Think about a pyramid scheme. Someone's at the top.

Most of it is luck.

Come on.

I had a video though during this TikTok organic dropshipping that got like 5 million views. I was like, holy shit, I made it. I go and I check the Shopify store. I made 5 sales. 5 sales. TikTok Shop's bigger than eBay. Every quarter does more revenue than eBay. 6 hours a day. What happens if your information source is controlled?

Then your thoughts are being controlled.

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna take you on your word. I'm gonna post 10 times a day.

Hey, my name is Chase Fisher. Since TikTok Shop has came out, I've generated over $3 million in GMV. And today we are gonna talk All right, most people who got rich young either scammed somebody, got lucky, or had help.

Yeah, I believe like luck is a big thing in everything. And you at 19, that their luck had to have been in there somewhere, man.

Look, like, you know what they say, obviously, like the corny saying is like luck happens when timing meets preparation or whatever. I've ran agencies, I've done dropshipping, I've done a lot of different business models. I think when you're implementing, like you're in the game, you're willing to look dumb, You've come into luck a lot sooner, but like nobody's gotten really successful without things going right for them. But you put yourself in a situation where things can go right for you. So was there luck? Probably some of it. And like very grateful to anybody who's helped me or given me some of that luck along the way. But if you're in the game, that's the only way you can get lucky.

So probably some of it, you mean like 80% of it? Because think about it, you're in your head, right? You're in your head. Okay, I did all this. I did all this myself, dude. That's, that's luck, bro. Yeah, that's most of it is luck. Come on.

I don't know. I mean, look, like, luck's definitely a thing. Again, like I said, 80% of it, maybe at the end of the day, when you go and you make a lot of money, you can take care of your family, all that shit. No one's gonna care if you got lucky or didn't get lucky the same way like a lottery winner. No one's like, oh, go fuck yourself, right? Like, you're living a great life and somebody else who didn't get lucky didn't. But if you want to increase the luck that you can get, it's you have to look dumb. You've got to be in the game.

Okay, so Let me get this straight. So you do TikTok shop. So you did. You said, do you make videos about the products or do you get other people to make them?

We have other people make them.

Yeah, you have other people make them. So, so you're not going to be the one, hey guys, I'm holding up a little bottle right here.

Buy my product.

Buy my product, please. And then it pushes out. You get lucky. One stupid video blows up there. There you go. That's luck right there.

Yeah.

So you didn't make the product. You're not the one shipping out the product. You're just Holding it up on the phone.

Yeah, I mean, currently I don't make videos, right? Not every day. Every once in a while too, like I have no shame, I'll make a video. I enjoy creating content. But the way that I got started in TikTok Shop, I was the guy, like I was trying to talk to brands like, please hire me, please buy my product. The way I made my first 6 figures in profit on TikTok Shop was I was selling these spin scrubbers that I would sell to like moms. And I was living with my parents and in my parents' like basement bathroom, I got started selling these on livestream. So not even videos, I'm on live sitting there, hey, please buy my product. But doing those live streams, that made me my first 6 figures in profit. And I was sitting there 5 to 8 hours every day saying the same script over and over and over and over again. I was like, bathrooms, bathtubs, shower walls, stoves, kitchen dishes, sinks. Like, the script is ingrained in my brain all day long, just scrubbing. It was actually the first time that I came out here when I came out to Miami for the first time after making some good money. I was talking to like a commercial real estate agent. I was like, dude, I I hate this, right? So like, even though I did hate it, even though I was embarrassing myself, I was fine doing it. At the end of the day, like, if you're not willing to look stupid at some point, I think it's super difficult to become successful. But I did those livestreams. It was 3 months straight, every single day, like Monday through Sunday, 5 to 8 hours. And then yeah, I came out to Miami, talked to some guys like, I want to outsource this. You know, it'd be great if somebody else could be the person on camera filming the videos. And I was like, but it just sounds crazy to have someone do that. Yeah, look, I was the guy at one point.

So you're saying look stupid on camera for 10 hours a day, then you'll get what you want.

It's one of the ways, that's for sure. Like, if you're willing to do it, it'll move faster. I could have been successful way slower, way slower. Like, 6 months after starting TikTok Shop Affiliate, I was number 2 ranked in the entire world because I was willing to look dumb. Like, I was posting videos, I was doing lives. Like, I didn't care. I was going to figure it out. And so right then, actually, I was 17. My first real big day was like 2 days before I graduated high school, which is crazy. And then throughout the entire summer, that's kind of when I did the lives. But yeah, if I was— since I was willing to look stupid 10 hours a day, I got there faster. If you don't want to look stupid, you can do it a little bit slower. But either way, if you stay in the game, you'll get there.

So you look stupid for 10 hours a day, do this, you know, okay, I want my shit to be out there. So then what, bro? Then what? Then your luck— what if your luck is ran out? So now you just look stupid for 10 hours a day for no reason. You're out of the game. Now you have to switch onto another product that's just not going to work.

Yeah.

I mean, if you have the skills, beliefs, and traits to do it with one product, you can do it with another. Like, I think it's an old-fashioned mentality to think like it's only going to work once. If you figured it out, you'll figure it out again. Selling your course to broke people is predatory. John Chase, nice to meet you.

I, I think selling courses are for people with soft hands.

Right.

People that don't really have real-world education.

Would you rather have soft hands or live a great life? I guess there's a lot of things, like maybe I have soft hands, sure.

But don't you want to actually do something that everyone relies on other than selling dish detergent or Scrub Daddies online? Like a real job.

No, I think it's— I think what we do is good. If you're thinking of like the ethics of it, like if it's a— if it's an ethics thing, everybody sells something. If the products that you're selling are quality on TikTok Shop, I think what you're doing is ethical. If— I mean, again, it all goes up to you. Like, ethics is very subjective. Do I want to get a real job? No, I think it's like a very old-fashioned way of thinking. TikTok Shop works well. It's a lot better than a real job.

Do you think gum is like a Good product.

Yeah. I mean, like if you're talking about NeuroGum, like, yeah, it's a great product. It does super well. Like I personally use it for NeuroGum specifically. I made like $30K in commission off NeuroGum. I got very close to the team too. They sent me like a $5,000 bonus and now we actually work with them on like a much higher like monthly retainer level. But yeah, it's a great product. It sells well, but importantly, like I use it, but even I would sell something like that I wouldn't use, you know, even if I might sell like a bra or something, like I don't care if it sells, it's a decent product, decent brand, whatever, you know?

Have you ever worked like a real job? Like the rest of us?

No, I've never worked a real job.

Like you clock in 9 to 5?

Yeah, never. And I got started dropshipping back when I was like 15, 16 years old.

FBA?

Always not FBA. No FBA. I had an agency, like a PR agency that was super shit. Honestly, I got lucky to like be able to see other people making money online. Not really like there was people where I was from making money online, but like on the internet. Thank people were posting, oh, I'm making money in Miami and Lambos and shit like that. And then I just became obsessed with it. So no, I never worked a job. No, I never clocked in. But the skills that you get from being an entrepreneur, like, you're going to have a lot of time when you're not making money, but after you have the skills to make money, yeah, it's good.

So my name is Henry. Uh, I work at a consulting agency called— Henry, it's me as well. Yeah, so as far as time. I think when it comes to starting like something like that, there's a lot of risk involved, right? And when you don't have a support system to do that, like for a lot of people that they rely on having consistent income in order to actually like, you know, pay the bills, get food, right? And then it's like you have a 9 to 5, you come home and you're like, I don't have the energy to do it, right?

Yeah.

Like starting a business like that, I think it's just like, The guarantee isn't there. So it's like—

Yeah, understood. So where's the risk? What are you risking?

I mean, the time commitment. I mean, there's no guarantee, right? Because obviously you could be doing something else that could be actually generating consistent income that is like reliable.

Like a job?

Yeah, like a job.

Like if you're working a job, your time outside of work, I wouldn't consider it that big of a risk. Like, And however, if you're like a very successful business owner, you can go get paid $300 an hour, $500 an hour to consult or whatever. Your time then has risk. If you work a regular job, I wouldn't really consider that like a big amount of risk. And for most people, I think that's a risk that they're willing to take. But like the guarantee, yeah, of course there's no guarantee. Absolutely. It could not work. And there's no guarantees at all that it works. There's no guarantees. Like truly there is no guarantees.

Yeah. And so, so I guess when it comes to starting, like for the people that don't have the luxury of say like, You know, you were 17 when you started, right? And you're in your parents' house, right? So you had the support of your parents, right? They were, you know, your mom making you dinner and like, so, you know, people say, you know, that don't have that support. Like how do you expect them to start something like that? Like, you know, when it comes to—

They're not risking any money, right? Like, yeah, at the worst, like maybe they were scrolling for 3 hours a day. The majority of people, if you go pull up their phone, it's like they're already on TikTok for 3 hours a day. Cool. Like, None of that information is good for you. Go put it into something that can potentially make you money. At the worst, maybe you learn a new skill, maybe you have some fun. It's a lot better than scrolling. So most people with their time after work are already not doing anything. And if they put it in a TikTok shop, like, while it's not guaranteed for them to work, A, number one, hopefully they enjoy it. B, number two, they're learning a new skill and it absolutely can work, right? Like, is it impossible that it works?

I would say it's impossible. But for the people that are investing all of this time, right, you know, say they're not able to spend time with their family, they're unable to like You know, there's the ROI, there's nothing there, right? I mean, like for people wanting to start that, like they have to have, you know, some kind of support system. You know, no one's spending, you know, spending 2, 3 hours a day on scrolling on TikTok, right? Like—

Let's see your screen time. It's interesting. So you spent 7 hours on Instagram this week, nothing on TikTok, which is interesting. But like those 7 hours that you spent on Instagram, like if you put that into TikTok Shop, who knows how much that can make you? Like I've had times where I'm making $1,000 an hour on a livestream. So if you put those 7 hours, what's the risk that you, you know, you get to watch like less Instagram Reels is the only thing. And for most people, I would consider that like very low risk, probably worth it. And like the chance of it working out is also fantastic if you're willing to put the time and effort into it. What was the last Reel that you watched?

I don't know.

Exactly. You don't even know.

Okay.

But like, okay, what's that? Do you know the last Reel you watched?

Because I don't really watch Reels.

Okay.

So yeah. So it's like a, it's a something that you don't even know what you're getting out of it. You can't even remember the last reel that you watched versus—

Okay, well some people that have like, they want to have, you say after like work, they what, they need to wind down. They want to, you know, have something that's like, you know, they have a chaotic day. Like, you know, they need to—

Which would you rather have? Like time to scroll on reels or like the chance of making $10,000 a month? What you're saying right now is that scrolling on reels is worth more than potentially making $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a month.

It's not that it's worth more.

That's what you're saying. No, no, no, that's what you're saying. You're saying this is a bigger priority.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm not. The priority is not—

The priority is reels.

So the priority isn't, It's not reels.

It's the fact that after a hard day of work, right, you know, I come home from my job, you know, and, you know, I've worked 8, you know, sometimes 10 hours a day, right? I come home and it's like, okay, I need to make myself food.

Okay.

I need to exercise, go to the gym, right? Do all the things I have to do, right. To stay healthy. Right. And obviously make money. But then I, you know, you need something that's going to, you know, lower your damn cortisol. Right.

After a hard day. I don't think that lowers your cortisol. Yeah. I think it would increase it if anything.

How would it increase it?

Stressful videos on there. No.

Well, okay.

What if you're, what if you're scrolling like, it's only cat videos?

Well, okay.

On top of that, what if you're scrolling educational content and, you know, learning about things, you know, finding—

The biggest problem with scrolling is that you don't know what you're gonna consume.

But if you, I mean, fair point. But if you wanna like actually, you know, curate your, your Instagram to like, okay, like I wanna learn about, you know, what if you're passionate about astronomy, you're passionate about—

But like, is your feed, even if you love astronomy, your feed's not gonna be only astronomy. And the information that you consume controls your thoughts. Thoughts control your emotions. Emotions control your actions. Actions control results. So if you don't know what information that you're consuming, you don't know what results you're going to get. And would you agree or disagree that information or Instagram is a controlled information source? I would, to an extent, right?

To an extent. I mean, you're curating your own feed, right? It's dependent on, you know, what you engage with.

It's a controlled information source. And so if it's a controlled information source, Information controls your thoughts. What happens if your information source is controlled? Well, I mean, what happens if your information source is controlled? If information controls your thoughts, then your thoughts are being controlled, right? But like, look, you're either— you're spending time getting your thoughts controlled for free, like, okay, well, or you can spend it making money.

I completely disagree with that. I mean, if you have a— if you're curating your own feed, I mean, say you're being shoved a bunch of bullshit, right? You can ignore it. Yeah, you don't have to watch it, right? That's what You scroll past.

Understood. I mean, do you know what the next video you open your Instagram Reel is gonna be? Like, do you know what that is? The hook could be something terrible and now it's in your thoughts and now you're thinking about it and now in the future it affects you. Like, it's like saying TikTok Shop is a scam and that's the first thing that you see. Next time you have a thought about starting TikTok Shop, it's like, eh, I don't want to do that. And you didn't get to choose that that thought even got in your head. And so for me it's just, look, the risk here is less Instagram Reels, possibility of making money, learning a new skill, et cetera. TikTok Shop is a scam. How's it going?

Hi, I'm Emily.

Emily, Chase. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you. So I've actually done TikTok Shop before and I've made sales. Like if I had to guess or give an estimate, I would say I've probably made like over $300 in sales, but like I've been doing it for a year.

Yeah.

Like it, nothing is consistent.

For sure. Number one, congrats. Like most people don't even make money online.

Thank you.

So most people never make their first sale or never even get started. Um, secondly, you've been doing it for a year, but how many videos have you posted, do you think? Like actual TikTok Shop videos with product links attached?

God. Um, I really, I don't know. I would say around 100, maybe a little less.

100 total videos. So how long do you think a video takes for you to make?

It depends. Like if I'm just filming something short and simple and then just linking the product, maybe like a minute or 2.

Yeah.

But if I'm going in depth and giving a review and trying the product out, Maybe like 30 minutes, an hour.

Okay. So is it fair to say like 15 minutes on average, maybe?

Sure. Yeah.

You spent 15 minutes creating a video 100 times. You have a business that's making you money. Most people would kill for that. Like really, I know it sounds simple, but most people for 1,500 minutes, how many hours is that?

I don't know.

Not that many hours though. Like less than a week. Um, you have a business that's making you money.

You can't count on it.

If you're doing more input, right? Like, how much did you want to make? What were you expecting to make?

Um, just like a consistent amount each month. Like, okay, well, $300 for an entire year, that's nothing. You can't do anything with that.

I mean, no business is going to make you the same amount month over month, unfortunately.

But like around the same.

Even then, it's going to go up, it's going to go down. Like, that's the, that's the, that's the game.

How much do you make on TikTok Shop a month?

We make anywhere from $20,000 to $80,000. It's like, wow, that's a big range, like, of commission. But yeah, every month it's not gonna be the same. And we know that's the game that we're playing. Uh, if you don't like that game, it's really unfortunate. But like, if you wanna make a lot of money, and it sounds like you do wanna make a lot of money, like you'll have to deal with inconsistencies, right? Um, so was there a dollar amount though? Like you wanted to make it consistent. Would you be happy making $300 a month consistently or?

Yeah, I mean, that would be a nice start.

Okay.

If you look at the people that are making $300 a month consistently, how many videos a month do you think that they're posting?

I don't know. Tell me.

I mean, guess, like if you, if you think like how many do you think?

For $300 a month, how many videos? I'm gonna go with like 30.

So if you know that the input to get, again, it varies. Like, you know how it is. If you know that the input to make $300 a month consistently is 30 videos and you don't do the input, you can't expect the output. It doesn't exist. You can't expect it. So if you made 100 videos a year, you're making a video every 3 days. Like, yeah, you made some sales, it's great. But if you did way more volume, like you already have proof of concept, like you're probably very close to hitting it big. And I know actually the producers off camera, like they showed me your account. There was like really simple stuff. Like you're on the verge of it. If you just do more inputs, like you're gonna have fun, like you're gonna start making some more money. It's just you need to do more. That's it. So again, like if you can't put in the inputs, you can't expect the outputs, but I know you have your phone here. I'll take a look at your account actually, if you want.

I mean, yeah, go for it. But like, I literally have just been copying viral videos, so I'm not sure why it's not taking off.

Okay. So most of these are not TikTok Shop videos, so you have like one every 3 days. You really are on par, like with what we were talking about. You got 972 views. Do you know if you made a sale actually?

No, I know.

Is that fine?

Yeah, you did make a sale. I can check. No, I didn't.

Okay.

The past, I think like 3 or 4, I've not made any sales. Okay. Which is like, you know, it's discouraging. Like for anyone who wants to try it, you make some money and then you continue to post and you don't make anything. It's like, well, why am I doing it?

For sure. For sure. It's discouraging. Do you think that you should make a sale every 3 to 4 videos?

Yes.

Okay.

Um, again, there's nothing wrong with that. So this one, you have 972 views. Yeah, you're posting, right, like once a week. This is the biggest thing. Like, even though not every video is going to make a sale, and honestly, 80%, 90% of your videos are going to make nothing, and the ones that do will make up for everything. And that's every TikTok Shop affiliate ever.

That's so true. All right, so go to the pinned video in that workout set. I mean, you can check, but I sold so many of those, and I think the commission on that was like $11 per item, and there's 2 items. It's a set. So I've sold a lot of those, but then on my past videos, I've sold nothing.

Yeah.

It's just so inconsistent.

So it looks like you're, again, you're in the same niche, which is good. Like you're still posting more sets. So it's like close to what sold for you. But most of the time, just like tactically, when you sell something on TikTok Shop, almost always you've never really exhausted what's actually there. Like your inputs are fine. There's a lot more that you can do. It really is smart like that. You're, you're trying to replicate things that you've seen because that's the biggest thing. Like you don't have to be creative. Because for a lot of these, I'm sure when you pick it up, it's just like, fuck it, put it down. Like, here it is.

1,000%.

Exactly. And for TikTok Shop, the only 2 ways you should be making videos as a beginner is either like direct copy of what's worked in the past or like a proven format that you're recreating for that product, but you've seen it work for another different brand workout set. It's like, apply it to this product. And those are the only 2 ways that it'll work. All you need is more inputs. Like, you're really not that far off. Like, and I really do mean it when I say it, if you start posting like a couple times a day, You have like 3, 4 proven formats. If you can even get up to 10 times a day and you do this for the next 30 days, you'll make more than you made in your entirety of TikTok Shop. That's it. Proven formats and exactly creations.

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna take you on your word.

That'd be great.

Seriously. I'm gonna post 10 times a day.

Please do.

On TikTok Shop.

Proven formats though, and exactly creations.

Okay.

Don't be creative. If you start being creative, the challenge doesn't work, but you, you got it. You'll probably hit something big too.

Okay. Okay. So if I actually do this and I stay consistent, how much money am I gonna make?

If you post 10 times a day, for 30 days with proven formats and exact recreations, you could make $10K in a month. Obviously there's a range, but if you actually have those inputs, like that's a $10K a month TikTok Shop affiliate input if the videos are good. So give it a shot. There's no guarantees obviously, but yeah, it'll be fun.

Hi, I'm Jessie. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you. I'm Chase.

I actually was struggling to sit here 'cause I agree with most of what you're saying and I agree that you need consistent output to expect Consistent income. Um, what I do worry about TikTok Shop, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is it a current trend and is it actually going to last like long-term? Like in 10 years, will TikTok Shop still be a thing?

Great question. So if you look at like the entire market and things that work really well, like Facebook, et cetera, like things that have just blown up, they're very easy and super logical to use. The way that I see TikTok Shop, it's, it's like, The lazy fucking people in WALL-E, you know, they're like sitting back, they're kind of like, you know, looking at the screen and everything's really easy in their life. Like we kind of go that direction as a society. What's easy will work on TikTok Shop. 2 clicks from scrolling already, you buy social commerce as a market because it's so easy and so logical. People are getting very comfortable buying from videos. We are just at the start. Like people are just starting to get used to See video, click, buy from creator. But it's so easy and it's like the best way to see products compared to Amazon or anywhere else. And so while some people might've seen it as a trend, I guess I'll ask you, like, do, do you think eBay is a trend?

eBay is not a trend. No, eBay has been around for a while.

eBay's been around for a while. Everybody knows what eBay is, right? Like mom, grandma, cousin, whatever. TikTok Shop's bigger than eBay. Every quarter does more revenue than eBay. And so at this point, like, I don't think it's a trend. And over the next 10 years, I see no logical way that social commerce is not the way that people are most comfortable buying. It just is. It's very easy.

Right. Another thing is I'm, I'm an online fitness coach, so I do online sales too. The difference in my perspective between me selling online courses is that I can actually get really good at the sales aspect of things. Like I can have a conversation with somebody and sell versus TikTok Shop is Making a video, not talking face to face with somebody and getting those sales skills.

Mm-hmm.

So my question is like, how can you put yourself into TikTok Shop and say something does happen, it doesn't end up working out. What kind of skills do you learn in TikTok Shop that you can actually apply to real life and how does it benefit you in other kind of ways?

For sure. So do you make content to promote your fitness coaching?

I do.

Do you think that if you make better videos, you get more leads?

Yes.

So TikTok Shop's the same way. If you make better videos, you make more money. Lighting, audio. TikTok Shop videos come down to 4 main things. I think I've literally looked at more TikTok Shop videos than any other person in the world. No joke. It comes down to 4 things: pacing, proven format, lighting, audio. Like, as simple as those sound. And like, there's little things like only videos with the classic font work on TikTok Shop. Little things like that. But it's really pacing, format, lighting, audio. You do that, you'll do really well. And so in TikTok Shop, right, you do sales. So are you selling over the phone? Just for context.

Yeah, like Zoom videos.

Zoom videos.

Okay.

Um, and I did that too, like when I had my first offers, like I've been selling over the phone, but either way, great skill, right? You can apply that to anywhere, any business you have, you're gonna be selling, always be selling. Um, on TikTok Shop, it's copywriting. And so copywriting is selling through writing. And on TikTok Shop, you have to be able to identify a good script so that no matter what, if I wanna sell this mic, I know how to write a script that's not just like, hey, I love this mic. I know how to pull on people's emotions. I know how to actually sell anything. And so the same way you could probably sell your offer, you could sell a trading offer, an Amazon FBA offer, 'cause you know how to sell. If you know how to write copy, you know how to make a good video, you can promote anything. And actually it's not only just one-to-one selling, one video can do millions and millions of views.

Right.

And so like it applies to everything.

The audience is a lot bigger, but what's missing when you're selling in TikTok Shop in one video where you don't have a person sitting in front of you is Learning how to objection handle.

Mm-hmm. You objection handle in TikTok Shop videos too. Like you bring up what people are thinking. It's like, oh, you might be thinking blank, but actually blank. Like, of course you could say that in a TikTok Shop video. The way that you write really good copy, or the way that you actually go through the process of writing good copy is like reading a ton of it. But yeah, you are still objection handling just in a video format.

Right. So would you say that learning how to sell face-to-face with a person and learning how to sell on TikTok Shop is increasing the same like sales experience equally?

No, TikTok Shop is way higher leverage objectively. And like, I'm not saying that's a rip on you.

Like, higher leverage?

Not even close. Yeah.

Okay.

Because no, no disrespect, like I could hire a closer. Can I hire somebody to go get me millions of views consistently? It's very difficult. It's a, it's a very, very high-level skill and has just more leverage than selling one-to-one. Um, and so while I think sales is like a very good skill and like it will translate over to TikTok Shop, you can talk on Zoom, you can talk on camera.

Okay. But so just to pick your brain a little bit, somebody who has worked in the sales world outside of TikTok Shop, like selling face-to-face, if they were to go and really pursue TikTok Shop, put all the hours into a day, post 10 videos like you were saying, um, do you think that they would have the same success as someone who only knows TikTok Shop sales and tried to switch? roles and do sales in the real world?

That's a good question. I think that sales translates more to TikTok Shop than TikTok Shop would directly to like high-ticket sales or something like that. High-ticket sales is like a niche skill still. Like there are certain things that you need to know. You need to know like actual people skills, whereas a TikTok Shop affiliate could be great on camera, but you know, with selling, like there's an energy, you know, if someone can't hold an energy, like they're super weird on cam, like on a Zoom call to get awkward. It's a different skillset. Um, but people in sales, like, I know it, I've worked with a lot of people in sales who do TikTok Shop. They do very well 'cause like they can already talk on camera generally. They can learn skills. They've already heard no a million times, so they can post videos and keep going. So I think sales to TikTok Shop translates even more.

I understand that like it is working really well and like the direction of it looks really good, but what if something happens? TikTok disappears and you can't apply the skills that you learn in TikTok Shop really in the same context in the sales world outside of TikTok.

If there's social media, TikTok Shop skills transfer over. Uh, if you know TikTok Shop, you can literally, like, you, if you can sell via a video, you can sell any service in the entire world. Like, really?

You think that somebody that can sell to a camera with no person behind it can sell to a person face to face?

Even if they can't, right? They can, maybe they can't. Like, who knows? It depends on the person. 'Cause again, it's a different skillset, but I just think objectively, if you can make a great video, you can get leads. Your business, unfortunately right now, like if you don't have leads, it's nothing. If you can't make good videos, how are you gonna get people that you can even sell on the phone? You're gonna go in person, right? It's very difficult.

I think that there's a difference between being able to make good content to generate leads and actually being able to close people face to face.

Yeah, of course. There is.

Yeah. I've hired people who are awesome on camera and then the second that they get onto like a sales call, they like shrivel up.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

So no, I agree, sales is a different skillset, but I just think objectively without marketing, 'cause that's what TikTok Shop is. TikTok Shop actually is like the most difficult platform to market on. It's the most competitive. Like you have to be very good compared to Meta, et cetera, because you're dealing with like a, technically a broader audience. You don't get to choose targeting as much. Anyways, you can do marketing on TikTok Shop. You can market anything in the world. I guess the question is not like, you know, which is higher leverage, sales or marketing, but like, If you can't generate traffic, there's nothing to sell.

Great.

Okay. So it, the question is like, what if TikTok disappears?

Yeah. Look, if TikTok disappears, it's not like objectively it got bought by a US company, so it's not gonna go away. But even then, the skillset that you learn in TikTok Shop can be applied anywhere. You can make ads for other platforms. You can do anything with TikTok Shop skills. So it's about building the skills, less about like, even if the platform went away tonight, like It's not like I'm cooked, you know, like we do a lot of marketing on Meta too. It's very similar skillset. Like I make ads for Meta that we spend 6 figures a month on and it works because I know TikTok Shop and I learned how to create a good ad on TikTok Shop. Like even for context, our top spending ad on Meta right now is like a TikTok Shop format. Like I literally ripped it from TikTok Shop, put it on Meta, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people have seen it and it works very well. So yeah, it's not going to go away, number one. And then number two, even if it does, the skills that you learn getting good at TikTok Shop translate everywhere. Yeah, I mean, we're just so early to TikTok Shop, like brands are just catching on. For example, like we did a deal with NeuroGum and they're a multi-hundred million dollar company. I don't know if I can say the name of the brand, but we worked with a company that did a billion a year. We're actually currently working with them. And these are the biggest companies in the world. They're on TikTok Shop. Shark, Ninja, Dyson, Under Armour, Ulta Beauty, billion dollar companies are on TikTok Shop. And so If they thought it was going to go away, if they thought it wasn't going to be a good long-term opportunity, I don't think they would do it. So I'll trust where they're going.

At what point do you think that us living in this day and age to be able to have the opportunity to be on camera and post about it, is that a lucky thing for us here today?

Yeah, dude, I'm very grateful that we have like all you guys out here. Like, thank you guys for coming out. Yeah, I'm super lucky.

Okay, so if we're going to go back to talk about how TikTok is going to be banned or whatever, right? It's not banned now, but God forbid it does because people like yourself might lose money, stuff like that, right? Do you have your own personal brand?

Yeah.

Like, are you doing fitness content as well or anything in the background?

It's just TikTok. Yeah.

Okay, so imagine TikTok got banned.

Right.

Would you then be at a loss because you don't have a personal brand?

I do have a personal brand, number one, but if I didn't, I would be fine because for example, like right now for some of the biggest brands, like either on TikTok Shop or even in the entire world, like we run either a good portion or the entirety of their TikTok Shop. The process of actually doing that is you still have to get ads, right? That's Every business has to do that. You have to get ads, you have to have an offer. So it's like, you know, buy one, get one, buy one, get one 50% off, this type of discount, et cetera. You have to manage creators, make sure that ads are being produced, make sure they're being sent to a good offer, make sure that orders are being fulfilled. Like that process in e-com, like just selling shit online will exist forever. And if I wasn't doing TikTok Shop, I guess I would do e-com. But the thing is like, this is the same skill that we're building. We are selling products online at a very high volume. Very fast.

So, okay.

You said that you were doing also Meta ads, right?

Yeah.

Do you do the Meta ads to boost your TikTok shop or do you do it for a different reason?

No, Meta we do for our program. And so we run Meta for our software and for our program, and that's why I know Meta. But also for that too, like we will, for some of these brands, a lot of the videos that we make on TikTok Shop get repurposed for them to run as ads on Meta too.

Okay.

So you're, Selling a course to do stuff on TikTok Shop for people to actually do it. Correct. So if I go back to the luck thing, if you— if there was a world where TikTok ever did get banned, right, we don't have it anymore. And you have a personal brand that's selling a course to sell stuff on TikTok Shop. Do you have a backup plan? Because if you don't have a backup plan, then you could be screwed.

Yeah.

Right.

So My business philosophy is that if you have the skills, beliefs, and traits, like that's how much money you're going to make. So like right now, like no matter what income and your skills, beliefs, and traits is a 1-to-1 correlation. Like I can look back at any time in my life, whether I was doing TikTok Shop or not, and see, hey, the exact amount of money that I was making was because of how good I was in terms of skills, beliefs, and traits. And so right now, like if TikTok gets banned, I'm a very good marketer. Like that's just what I do. Like I know how to market very well. I don't have to do TikTok Shop. I don't have to do what I do. I do it because I really enjoy it. And so I could probably make more money doing other things. Like as a good marketer, you have a lot of different options of where you can go, what you can sell. There's a lot of money selling a lot of different shit. And I have gotten a lot of offers from companies that are like, could pay you just unbelievable amounts of money, but I choose not to do it because I like TikTok Shop. And I know for the average person that it's like a very Do this, do this, do this type of thing, and they can make money. Like even my dad does it. So I choose to do TikTok Shop, but even if it doesn't exist, I'd be fine.

Okay, so give me a little bit more of a rundown of like what your like actual personal brand is outside of TikTok Shop.

It's really just TikTok Shop. So I'll talk about certain things. Like sometimes I'll do storytelling videos. Like I enjoy making videos and I like to see stuff go viral because for me, like if I can crack something on organic, I know like organic TikTok, like I know people will like it. For paid or for TikTok Shop. So when I see something work on organic TikTok, I think organic TikTok is super fair and then I can translate that stuff over. But my personal brand is mainly just talking about TikTok Shop. It just is, you know, so there's not much outside of it. Like I used to post fitness content before I even got into TikTok Shop, but now it's just TikTok Shop.

Okay.

So I do app development and I'm also in social media and do fitness content, sell courses, so on and so forth. Because you have your personal brand on these apps and you are selling through TikTok Shop, why wouldn't you want to actually elevate yourself a little bit more and create like your own TikTok Shop so you're not in jail with TikTok? You're stuck with TikTok.

Are you saying why don't I create TikTok Shop? Like, why don't I make a new marketplace for someone to earn commission?

Because when you're there and you're on TikTok Shop, right, you're run by TikTok. at this point. You have to go by the products that they have.

I completely agree.

Correct.

Look, TikTok Shop right now though is fantastic. Like anybody can pop on there and make money. We have involvement with a platform called Hourly UGC where you can earn commission from brands running your ads on Meta. So we are in a sense like decentralized, but of course, yeah, you're always gonna rely on any platform. Like every business in the world right now that is their main traffic source is Meta ads, which is like, Any sort of direct response company, any sort of online business, it's all Meta. Like, fuck it. What if Meta says, hey, we don't want you to run ads anymore. We ban your account. We do this. Like, there's always gonna be uncertainty. You never know what's gonna happen. But like, at the end of the day, the only way that you make a lot of money in anything is to go fucking deep. And so am I super personalized on TikTok Shop? Yes, because I love it. I don't want to talk about fucking lifestyle. I don't want to talk about anything else. Like, this is the most broad video, like type of, this is the most broad thing I'll do. Because I'm very deep in TikTok Shop. Like, I, in my opinion, humbly, like, I think I understand TikTok Shop to like the first principles of it, exactly how it works, all the brands, how they spend their ad. Like, literally, I've been in it since day one, um, and I love it. So it's very niched on TikTok Shop.

Okay.

Is that—

yes, I'm deep.

I'm deep.

Do you believe in when someone jumps on something first because they've seen it first, they become more successful at it?

First mover's advantage, baby. Absolutely.

When did you start TikTok Shop?

2023.

2023. So that's like exactly when it came out. I'm going to go back to— so Jesse over here said that we're both Canadian, right?

We—

I don't think we have TikTok Shop in Canada, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I'm not extremely educated on TikTok Shop. I'm trying to pick your brain on the perspective of your own personal brand with TikTok Shop. Do you ever feel as though that you're like, this is where I'm thinking that it might be a little bit of a scam, right? Think about a pyramid scheme. I'm not saying it is a pyramid scheme, But someone's at the top, they own TikTok, they get feeders like yourself to do TikTok Shop and then get other people to buy their course to learn how to do it. Correct. But if your personal brand is TikTok Shop and then marketing ads through Meta and doing so on and so forth, at what point is that actually a personal brand or you're just actually employed by TikTok?

TikTok didn't pay me to do this at all. TikTok doesn't pay me very much.

It was a choice, but it's also a choice to become a bartender. It's also a choice to go out and work at a grocery store, right? So you're not like it again, like it is your choice, but at what point are you employed by TikTok?

Right?

And then you don't actually have that personable brand because it's not you that is being personable with it because you don't have lifestyle stuff or if you don't have anything, it's just directly TikTok shop and only that. That's all people would know you for, right? And you sell your courses, but because you sell your courses, you are feeding into that funnel, right? So at what point would it be a scam? Because now they're actually— they've got a hold of you on only strictly TikTok shop and not your own personal brand for you to be able to develop your own TikTok shop or your own app to be able to sell your own course on how to use these things like Meta ads, Instagram ads.

Or yeah, why couldn't I go out and say, hey, this TikTok shop sucks, let's go do this thing? Why can't I do that?

No.

Yeah, you can do that.

I'm just saying, why am I employed by TikTok? Or like, how does that make TikTok a scam? Like, in my head right now, not even in my head, like objectively, TikTok shop for the average person, there's literally no better business model. It's very low operational complexity. They can come in, post videos, select products, make money. Okay, so best opportunity in my head. And so Yes. Am I reliant on TikTok Shop? Of course. But like every business is reliant on different people. And then the argument where it's like, okay, TikTok's at the top. They have people like me getting more people into TikTok Shop affiliate. Every business has a structure where it's CEO, other people, affiliates, right? Like technically I get more affiliates onto TikTok Shop, which they like, but I wish they paid me for it, right? Like they don't pay me for that. So.

So I'm also just going to make this clear. Like I'm Canadian. I don't know a lot about TikTok Shop. I'm not fully educated. I'm just trying to, like, pick your brain on it. But it's— I don't feel as though it's a scam. It's just more of like, at what point do you lose your personal brand to it not being actually personable because you're trying to sell someone something that is through someone else's upper hand? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, what's your thoughts on that?

I'm very fortunate to, like, not need a massive personal brand. Like the way that TikTok Shop as a business model works, I don't need shit. I can post videos. I know how to write good copy. I know how to create a great video. I know how to select a great product.

Cool.

I can make money whenever. If I lost everything today, I don't need a personal brand. I will go deep in TikTok Shop. Like I can beat pretty much anybody.

Does it not scare you that it might get banned? Like, I know, I know it's not going to now, but like there was also, there was that peak where everybody was like, holy shit, like this is gonna—

Like when, even when we got to that point, I remember I actually sat down with my girlfriend. It was a real conversation because it was like there was a day, you know, TikTok was down for a day. We're like, dang, is it really going to go? But even then, it's the same perspective, like in business. And I've noticed it forever. Skills, beliefs, and traits is the only thing you can do to increase your income. However, like right now, let's say I have $100,000 a month skills, beliefs, and traits. Like I could go make $100K a month in whatever I do, right? That means TikTok Shop doesn't need to exist. Would it be annoying if it got banned? Yeah, bro, it'd be annoying. Number one, it's not. Number two, if it did, I would still be fine, and so would anybody else who built their skills, beliefs, and traits doing TikTok shop affiliate. Thank you, Rob. 9-to-5 workers rule the world.

Blue-collar work really contributes to society more than people that sell online. You know, like for example, like truckers, you know, semi-truckers, they're delivering stuff like all across the country. And if we don't have those people that actually want to do that work, I don't think you'd get the stuff that you need in your stores. Like you say, for example, this microphone, it had to be shipped and picked up from a trucker and dropped off.

Yeah, that's blue-collar work. That's blue-collar work. Yeah, I'm not disputing that. I think that is blue-collar work. Do they help? Absolutely. Like, no one is forcing those people to do that job. Of course, like, if someone has to do it, someone's got to do it, right? Someone's got to do it. Like, by the function of capitalism as a whole, people have to work jobs. Like the belief of the masses has to be that money is scarce. If money's not scarce, people won't do difficult things. They have to believe that money is hard to make or else they won't drive. So yeah, we absolutely need them. But like by the function of capitalism, we need employees, we need people to do all types of jobs. And yeah, for sure. Like, yeah, I mean, blue-collar workers, again, there's nothing wrong with them at all. And I think they do help the country a lot.

I think, I think they make more than you.

They make more?

Yeah.

How much does the average blue-collar person make?

Um, it depends on the trade. Like, say electrician master, I think they make more than the average. Like, in 3 weeks they can make maybe like $13,000, $14,000.

Yeah, no, um, in my opinion it's not a lot of money. Like, in some people's it might be, and it's good money for a lot of people, but like, if you have the skills to be able to do something at scale, you should do it. And even like zooming out a sec, like Business as a function. They provide that service for you, right? You have truckers, they get paid for it the same way that TikTok Shop affiliates provide a service to both sides, and they just do it at a bigger scale. And so that's why they get paid. Provide service to brand, provide service to person who wants to buy it. That's how they make a lot of money. It's too late to start TikTok Shop.

So in my opinion, as a fellow business owner, I feel like when it comes to TikTok Shop, I kind of feel like it's too late. So for background, before I got into growth operating, I actually tried TikTok Shop as like a side hustle. And obviously I admire somebody that is able to put in hard work and like really stick with something. Um, but I feel like now it's really saturated. I actually went on TikTok Shop last night and as a consumer, the catalog was super overwhelming. So yeah, I guess what would be your rebuttal to that?

Yeah, I mean, just like any market, as it goes on, it becomes more sophisticated, meaning more people join, but the market hopefully gets bigger. Right now with TikTok Shop as an affiliate, there are more brands joining than there are creators. So that makes sense why like the catalog where you can shop for things might start to get crowded. Like there's going to be hundreds of thousands of more products that come onto TikTok Shop. But as an affiliate, as the market gets more mature, there's really just more money to be made. And so is it later than when I got started? Absolutely. But is it too late? In no way, shape, or form. And honestly, that's the thing that people get wrong in a lot of markets like Growth Operating. How long has Growth Operating been out?

I mean, it's, it's been out for a bit, but not a lot of people have known about it, I think up until this point.

Maybe, right? Subjectively, not a lot of people have known about it. But Growth Operating, scaling businesses as someone who comes in, handles marketing, et cetera. I mean, it's something that's been around for decades and decades. Is that saturated, right? It's like, if you're good, no, right? But if you are bad, there's a lot of growth operators out there. So the same thing goes for any affiliate. If you're good, you'll make money. If you won't, it's very skill-based, very fair platform, so you won't make money if you're not good.

So I have a question for you. The students that come into your program at the end, 'cause I'm assuming your program has a duration, right? Like it's probably like 6 months of support. A year?

Yeah.

Okay. So what would you say is the average success rate of each student in terms of like earning their first $1,000 with you?

Oh, first $1,000. Well, it depends if they implement. Like if someone implements consistently on TikTok Shop, they are going to hit it. Like obviously there's no income claims in this video at all, but like, yeah, if they do that, they should get it. Um, in terms of like info, entire program success rate, you know how it is with anything. Like if people implement, they're successful. If they don't implement, most of the time they're not successful. But our program is structured in a way that like, if you're gonna do it, like if you're gonna come into a program, we have engineered down to like every single little failure point where people fall off. Like we have different team members for each person at different stages of revenue. So it's like, okay, now you start to get a little more technical. You wanna scale up accounts, like you wanna hire a creator here. You now go to this person because they know the exact mechanism of hiring the right creator, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so good is the answer. Yeah.

Okay. So you've never like ever had a student feel like, wow, like, you know, Chase, I paid you this money and now like I'm starting to make videos and I kind of feel like I'm running into all these creators like making the same videos as me. Do you ever have anybody that has like those sort of beliefs?

Most of the time you'd be surprised, but it's the opposite where it's like, I'm making videos, but I'm not making sales. Not because there's too many people making the same video, but because there's not enough. When people try to go and be creative, that is the number one thing. The number one reason that they fail is because they try to go and innovate.

Mm-hmm.

The biggest thing with TikTok Shop is like, is the format that you're even doing, like, does it work? Like, have people made money on it before? And I'm not gonna force like anybody to go become like a direct response copywriter, learn how to create a great script from scratch. 'Cause we work with companies that do $100 million a year. They copy their competitors. They all do. Everybody does. Because when humans respond to a certain type of messaging, it just works. And so, It's not about people creating the same video too many times or using the same script too many times. Most of the time it's not enough. People need to just recreate. They need to put their ego away, just do what works. So the competitive thing, like in terms of videos, no, you need to go where it's competitive because that's where the money is. AI will replace your business.

You can literally generate any amount of videos you want a second. So why would we need real people to show us products that we're probably never going to use? So if you can just generate it, then—

So you're saying TikTok Shop affiliates as a whole will be eliminated because TikTok will just like make infinite AI videos?

You could.

Yeah, you could. There's no, there's not gonna be any need because I mean, you're not, not promoting the product. We can just get AI to do it.

Yeah. So On TikTok Shop right now, like let's address where AI's at. On TikTok Shop currently, AI is not as good as human for 3 main reasons. Number one, it's more expensive than paying your creator hourly. Like it's not free to generate AI videos with the higher models too. Like it actually can be pretty expensive. That's number one, it's more expensive. Number 2, it doesn't perform as well. So people would generally rather buy from a human than they would from an AI. Would you agree? Generally?

Well, the issue with that is it's hard to tell, like, You just, or AI is getting so good that, yeah. You just see content, it's, you know, at some point it's gonna get to like, how can you differentiate between what is AI and what isn't, right? So why would that matter?

That's a great point. Yeah. Most of the models right now, fortunately, like who knows if it'll stay the same, they have like an invisible watermark. So when you post it on TikTok, it says video was generated by AI. Even if you don't disclaim it, it knows. And so I think that's a pretty inevitable thing that people will want to see human versus AI content. And we'll get a tool that's good enough to differentiate it, which we have right now.

People find ways around it, but at this point, AI is pretty much improving exponentially, right? You know, previously it was like first, you know, every 6 months it was like double the efficiency or double the, uh, whatever you're trying to accomplish. Um, now it's down to 3 months, so it's becoming more exponentially, you know, improving. So it's like, how can you compete with AI? Um, if that's just the improvement, basically everything is going to be. So what would you say in your business model? Why do you feel that you're able to avoid that? Say AI basically replacing what you do, replacing TikTok Shop, like UGC creators basically.

So I agree in the sense that like AI will rapidly get better over and over and over. Like the people don't even understand the fact that like AI, when it gets better, it improves itself more like exponentially gets way better. Anyways, like, yes, it's getting better, but the innate desire of a human is to buy from another human. Now, again, your point is that they won't be able to tell if it's a human. Look, right now the watermarks say yes, but like, let's say people even get around that. Why can't I use AI if I know direct response copywriting? If I know what a good video looks like, why couldn't I use AI if that were better? Currently it's not, right? But if that were better. For the 3 main reasons I went over earlier, which is number one, it's more expensive than hiring a creator hourly right now. Cost will go down, so who knows if it'll change. So that's number one. Number 2, it performs worse. And number 3, on TikTok Shop right now, you get bans. People like to buy from humans more than they do AI. Currently at the moment, the average person can tell the difference for most videos, not everything, right? So, and the 3rd reason though is that on TikTok Shop right now, bottom line, AI videos get bans and violations.

They get banned.

Yeah.

Are you sure?

No, it does, it is allowed, but so many AI videos, they misrepresent the product very poorly 'cause AI makes mistakes. And like, obviously if I have like something that we'll probably pull up on the screen is like a bath bomb video with like these babies. Like someone puts an AI like bath bomb video and it's like explodes all the way outta the bathtub when obviously the product in reality, it's like, you know, fizzles up a little bit, maybe adds some color, but it doesn't do what is shown in the product. False advertising, right?

When it comes to, That, right? I mean, why is that necessarily a bad thing, right? I mean, if it's like—

Why is false advertising a bad thing?

No, not that it's like— say that, I mean, think people say, okay, for example, right? Food. It's, you say it's organic, right? It's not actually organic, right? Same thing. You could say, oh, this is AI generated or it's not AI generated.

I think I get what you're saying, right? Like, you know, people make things look good always. Like a Burger King burger in the commercial looks different than when you get it. The thing about AI is it's not even a real product. No one has the product. And so you can't tell if it's false advertising or not. Aside from that, from like a compliance standpoint, like currently New York City has a law where for every AI-generated model image that you use that is not disclosed as AI, for every single violation, it's $50,000. And so that's just the start, right? On top of that, Snapchat right now has completely banned AI content from like For You page or Explore distribution. They're not going to be the first platform to do that. Yeah.

Okay. So my point is not everything has to be visual. So you're saying we can't, you know, advertise a product that's not even there. We can still write. AI can still write. AI can still publish things in another way instead of visualizing it. Wouldn't you say that would be more quicker than having someone else just, you know, make the same thing? But it's for crying. It's requiring their time, their effort, when there's other ways of publicizing and advertising a product.

Agreed. Like, direct mail has been around since like the '60s, '50s, '40s, '30s, et cetera. And there were some great marketers that made, in today's money, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars by sending mail. And of course, there are ways that you can market things through text. However, TikTok Shop, just by nature, is a video platform. And so videos do not get marketed by text. They only get marketed from videos with an orange shopping cart link on them.

So when it comes to like the process of, I know you mentioned kind of circling back when it comes to the fact that there's all these regulations, right? What do you think that they say, for example, those change, right? The regulations like, okay, yeah, right. There's going to be a lot of lobbying, right, to advocate the use of AI because it's just You know, why not? And do you think that, uh, like that safeguard of those, that regulation that's going to prevent people or prevent AI from basically replacing everything is going to be like something that's going to stay?

Do you think it's a possibility that it goes the other direction? Like, is that something that is physically possible that it goes only human and AI is completely banned? Do you think that's a possibility?

A possibility. But, but if, if people, if, if the government and all of these people are investing all of this money and time and building all these data centers, why would someone, why would that be even Topic of discussion.

Like, look, from what we talked about earlier, you have possible fraud happening, people not knowing that it's AI, fake testimonials, et cetera. Like, that ruins buyer trust. There's an entire government organization, the FTC, that is for buyer trust. And like, if you scam the American people, that's when the FTC comes for you. And so the 3-letter organization, right? But like, they don't like when American consumers get scammed point blank.

Why are you scammed?

Yeah, so it's just the false advertising like we talked about. Like that inevitably just happens. People overexaggerate things.

Why does it now have to be a problem if it gives us the same result?

You know, maybe it's the same thing.

Yeah, I mean, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with like making AI copy of yourself. I guess it kind of just becomes a problem when, A, number one, if the FTC is coming after you, that's a problem. Number two, if you're cloning other people, fake testimonials. Like you're showing like a product that you have like a 300-pound person, they take a supplement, 30 minutes later they're fucking skinny. And you can do that with AI. You can't do that with a human being. And so that's just what it is. And there are laws around this right now. I don't think this is the biggest reason why AI doesn't work on TikTok Shop, but like let's say it even has an AI-generated compliance thing on it. This is AI-generated. Trust goes down automatically. And that means the human video will convert better. A video that looks the exact same as another video, but one has an AI-generated label on it will convert worse.

So I wanna make an analogy here when it comes to things like food, right? For example, previously, say like, you know, 50 years ago, right? The term natural, right? Or organic, right? That actually meant natural or organic, right? It is actually, you know, grown in a certain way or whatever. Now, because of lobbying and advocating for redefining that actual word, why don't you like, because now things, it's like in different types of, or different types of food, like you don't actually know if it's actually organic because how, because of people advocating to redefine the word literally. So when it comes to this same kind of applying this to your business model or what you're doing, why don't you think that is? you know, could become an issue where it'd be like redefining what is artificial intelligence or what does that role, what does the role play?

I know, it's a little philosophical for me. Like, I don't think they'll redefine what AI is.

They redefine what—

because it hasn't happened yet. It hasn't happened. It's like the same thing as saying, you know, it may happen that AI content has no regulations on it and anybody can just go do whatever they want with it. Like, that's possible. The other direction is also possible. The argument needs to be grounded in like reality, what is happening right now, and like what are the possible things that could happen? Like either direction could possibly happen, but right now AI is generated, like AI is defined as artificial intelligence generating a video. I just don't think that that's gonna change. So I guess to play like devil's advocate here, Like let's say they change it so it's like partly generated with AI, AKA the video is real, there's a person moving, but you change their race. And so now it resonates with this race better, this ICP better. That could happen. Again, a lot of the thing is like once you understand copywriting, once you understand marketing in general, these tools kind of just become beneficial to you if they're beneficial to the mass market. At the end of the day, I know I'm not going to be behind whatever the best thing working with AI is, but right now I think it's better used scripting, possibly editing videos. There are some softwares for editing. But not full video generation right now on TikTok Shop as an affiliate. If TikTok Shop is so easy, then why don't all of your students succeed? Chase, nice to meet you.

Yeah, so I was just thinking that like while I was sitting over there, because a lot of people buy mentorships, a lot of people buy courses, but a lot of people don't succeed, right? I was wondering, I'm from Canada as well, so like I was just thinking like If it's so easy, you're making it seem so easy, like, why isn't everyone succeeding in it?

Yeah. What do you do?

I do high-ticket sales.

Okay.

Do you have— have you ever tried to teach someone high-ticket sales?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Were every single one of them successful?

Not all of them, no.

Okay. Why not?

A lot of people, like, don't put in the work, don't put in the effort, don't put in the time, use excuses. A lot of people get held back by the excuses subconsciously. Understood.

So if people exhibited those same traits, do you think they would be successful in TikTok Shop? No.

Okay, I agree, I agree.

But like, at the same time, what comes down to it, what are the people that do succeed then? Like, not time, effort, I'm talking about, let's just say someone does have that grunt work. Some people, like the blue collar, like they were talking about earlier, right? The people that do join, like they do like lock in, they do put the time effort. Do they always succeed?

Yeah, almost always. I mean, like, look, it's just like any business model. We end up do— we have a guarantee where it's like, you do TikTok Shop. If you do it for the full length of the program, you actually put in effort, you don't quit, don't make your money back, like, we will give you a full refund. And so we have it set up like that because like, we know that it works as long as you actually just do it. Like, you have to implement the stuff that we give you. If you don't do it, like, I could put some spells on you, no matter what, you wouldn't be successful. Yeah. And so what are the ones that are successful, do well? Look, we have a very good system for like making people successful. Like for the last almost 2 years, starting October of 2024, I've ran a call every single day, like literally every single day at 12:00 PM Eastern that it's a mindset call. Because originally when I was getting into TikTok Shop and I was like making money, like trying to help friends and family, I had the same questions. Like, I can give you everything you need to do. Why aren't you successful? Like, why won't you implement? I believe in you. Other people around you believe in you. You know what to do. Why can't you figure it out? I couldn't. I literally didn't understand it. Why weren't you successful? Why couldn't you do it? And I realized it's no matter what the tactical, the videos, the products, whatever, it's only gonna be maybe 10%. The programming is 90% of it. The reason that people quit is they've got terrible middle-class programming. Their parents raised them in a way, and it's not their fault, but their parents raised them in a way where it's like, you know, If it's not working for you, you can just quit. Like, oh, making money online is bad. You should work a real job. All these thoughts and limiting beliefs start to creep into their head and then they stop implementing. They're like, ah, fuck it, I'll go get a real job. Mom was right. I should quit. It's hard. I shouldn't be an influencer. They're programmed to be middle class and someone that's programmed to be middle class until you reprogram them, they cannot not get middle class results unless they get lucky.

So how would you reprogram them?

I do every day, right? So I've been doing it for almost 2 years. Every day I run this 12:00 PM Eastern call. every single day, studying how the world-class operates at their level. And you will literally just start to— what happens is like in the first couple days, sometimes people will see like huge growth. They start to realize some limiting beliefs. But over time, programming is a super repetitive process. Like if I locked you in this room and I got everybody outta here and every day I put something that was just an audio playing that was like, you can't fail, you can only learn and grow. Like a simple belief like that. I can't fail, I can only learn and grow. After days and days and days of having that be your only source of information, You would start to believe it. And the next time you had an opportunity where it's like, dang, I just failed. Well, it's like, well, I can't fail. I can only learn and grow. I've just now instilled a belief in you that will now change your actions and your behavior. That's how you reprogram. Now, it's very repetitive. It takes a long time. That's why I do it every day. I don't do it, you know, Mondays and Fridays, guys. Like, I, I do it because A, number one, for me, it reprograms me. And B, number two, our success rates go through the roof compared to everybody else who only says, hey, Do videos, do products, do this, bro. If someone has terrible programming, they couldn't implement that shit at all. And so you have to change the programming first before someone can even implement the tactical stuff. And so that's how we reprogram. We do it at scale and it works very well.

So you run it every single day at 12, right?

Yeah.

After that, what do they do then? Right? Because at 12 they have you, right? But then now like the rest of the day, the rest of the night, they don't have you, right? So what would you say you do for those students Because it's so easy to have that. Like, you can join a call, right? You feel very motivated, but it's very easy to lose the motivation. So how do you keep them motivated? How do you keep them grinding? How do you make sure that they don't have any limiting beliefs and that they know if they do the grunt work, they know the work, it's going to succeed?

Like I said, programming is a repetitive process. If you were to show up to this call every day for the next 30 days, you— I guarantee it without a shadow of a doubt— even if you were in the gym, in the car, whatever, you were listening to this, you would think different thoughts. You don't have an option. Humans are very moldable. You're not a brick. Like, I can change your thoughts very easily. The same way someone like with sales, you are kind of shifting beliefs actively.

Yeah.

Now, while I'm not talking to you, you literally don't have a choice if you consistently listen to this information over and over. So while I can't babysit them 24 hours a day, if I can get them to show up, and not everybody will, like, you'd be surprised, not everybody will. If I can just get them to show up every day for a month, 2 months, 3 months, like, I know that when we do our Monday, Wednesday, Friday calls, They can actually implement the shit that we go over.

So yeah. I agree. I agree.

But then also I want to bring it back to when you first started, it was 2023.

Yeah.

I guess for you, how did you take action on that? Because a lot of people would see it. A lot of people like, like, I mean, I didn't see it, but I know everyone in the US, like they all saw it all around the world. What made you kind of take action on that then?

Yeah.

Because a lot of people wouldn't do that, you know?

For sure. For sure. Well, fortunately for me, like I was already taking action. Um, I was doing like TikTok organic dropshipping, which is a god-awful business model. Really bad. Like, I had a video though during this TikTok organic dropshipping that got like 5 million views. I was like, holy shit, I made it. I go and I check the Shopify store. I made 5 sales. 5 sales out of 5 million views. That sucks. That's terrible.

Well, how much, how much money is that?

5 sales? $150. Nothing. Literally nothing.

On 5 million?

Damn.

Yeah, nothing. And I'm like, dang, this business model sucks. Now, this was also the time that TikTok Shop and TikTok Shop Affiliate was coming out and it was like a very simple process. Make video about product, generate sale, except on TikTok Shop, instead of sending someone to your probably shitty Shopify website, you send somebody to a TikTok Shop product page that has been conversion rate optimized over billions of views and is perfectly converting. And a product that has existing demand and existing reviews that people already like, like it just works. It just works better than anything. And so I was fortunate to be already implementing something similar.

Yeah.

And I just channeled it on a TikTok Shop. Started to see some proof of concept because I was doing it consistently. When you find something that works, I've always had the mantra, it's like people who focus get crazy results. And so, I just went deep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What really motivated you then? Because a lot of people do the 9-to-5 route. I was working it before I got into this space. You said you've never done it before, right? So, like, how did you get straight into online business, right? Because I know you're doing it right. I mean, a lot of people will go get that 5 million views, see like only 5 sales, $150, like damn, and they give up. Like, what was your big motivator as well?

Yeah, the truth is I didn't want to go to college. Like, as a very simple motivator, I did not want to go to college.

And the reason why?

I just didn't think it was for me. I was like, dang, this is what everybody's doing. I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want a job. I don't want to do this shit. And so it's not a great motivator because it's based out of fear. And like, that's not the most comfortable thing because you're grinding to like put food on the table. You're grinding to get away from something that's much worse than doing something where it's like, hey, I can retire my parents. I can Ex-love-based motivator. But I guess, look, my parents were telling me, go get a job, do this. Like, I had no money and I'd ask my parents for money. It's terrible, right? But I just thought I could do it. And like, for whatever reason, I probably got programmed by like people on TikTok saying like David Goggins, like, you can do it, you can do it. Like, I remember I was making no money, but I would listen to these audios during the gym and like so much roots back to this and like why I love programming now. But I would listen to these like Like probably now corny, but like David Goggins, like over some music.

I fuck with that.

And I was just like, I would work out every day at 4 AM. And again, I was making no money. I'm going to gym 4 AM, go to school after, try to work on business after. And I was listening to this shit. It's just like over and over, like again, this programming process. You could do it. You could do it. Okay. Okay. All right. I can do it. So now when things don't work, it's not like, is this going to work or not? Like, I don't know. No, it's like, I can do it. Like, I can figure it out. If other people can figure it out, why can't I? Why am I different? Than you? Like, what makes me different? And I never understood that. And the answer is nothing makes you different. And so you realize that as you start to get some proof of concept. But honestly, it probably roots back to like that good programming that I was listening to and indoctrinating me with this idea that I could do it.

So what do you recommend for the people that haven't started TikTok or any type of business model? Obviously, what do you recommend they should do to get kind of over that limiting belief, like just of just starting? If, if he can do it, I can do it too. What do you think they should do?

That's a very good point. If someone was brand new, like the easiest thing you can do is to start taking action, of course. Like, but let's say like, that's really it. You gotta start taking action.

Yeah.

There's a couple ways to normalize like making money, right? Like the main reason people don't implement is they don't think that they can do it. They're like, ah, I can't make, I could never do that. So I'm not gonna go and tell someone to like go listen to fucking David Goggins for 10 hours a day. But like those, those ideas will get into your head. But another way that you'll get that idea in your head is if you make your first sale.

Yeah.

You see the number, you're like, huh, well, if I could post 10 videos and make 1 sale, if I posted 100 videos, maybe I can make 10 sales. Maybe I get better over time. Maybe it gets more efficient. And then they can start to see the whole entire picture. And so normalizing those numbers is super important. Like literally sitting there doing the math, but taking action. If you want to listen to David Goggins' videos, if you want to listen to that, sure. Like you'll get better programming, but taking action, seeing proof of concepts, a beautiful feeling.

Sounds good. Sounds good.

Yeah, thank you, dude.

I think one of the biggest points that he was trying to make was that working to contribute to society and actually provide something valuable is so important to feel fulfilled overall, right? And blue-collar work does do that to a certain capacity. I think that the way that I sell fitness coaching does do that. I feel really great when my clients feel really great.

Okay.

Um, I worry that TikTok shop doesn't do that. Because you even said like you could sell a bra. You don't believe in selling bras.

You don't wear bras. You know what I mean? Why does someone buy your fitness coaching?

Because they are looking for help in feeling better in areas of their lives, whether it's physically changing, mentally changing, emotionally changing.

Okay.

Do you think that people buy it because they think that it's valuable?

Yeah.

Okay. So on TikTok Shop, someone buys something because they believe it's valuable. How is that different?

Correct. But because I believe so fully in what I'm selling, it gives me so much fulfillment. Right? Versus a lot of TikTok shop people, like you just said that you would sell bras. That was like a perfect example. I was like, wait, like you're not gonna feel good gratification if you see a bunch of sales from people buying bras on a deeper level rather than a superficial level.

Yeah, why not? I mean, look, it's not about the bra, it's not about the product that you're selling. It's about the process that you take somebody through to buy that bra. It's a beautiful thing. Every time you make a sale, how does it feel?

Feels good.

It's great. Like you made the video, someone showed up, they trusted you and they bought it. The same thing happens on TikTok Shop. They watch the video, they like the product, they trust you, they buy it. And putting people through that process is a great feeling, especially when they choose to buy the product. I don't force anybody to buy a bra. I make a video that's compelling about a bra, or actually orchestrate the video about the bra that might be compelling. At the end of the day, it's up to them if they want to buy it because they believe that it's valuable. So in my opinion, I'm getting people products that they believe are valuable at a massive scale. And there's nothing wrong with that.

You're a business owner, right? You are classed as an entrepreneur, right? Do you have people under you that sell for you? A lot.

Okay.

When you're on Instagram, right, and you have a business account, you have to put in your business number, right? You get a form at the end of the year of how much you've made, right? Some people make zero, some people make $50K, so on and so forth. Does it work the same on TikTok for TikTok Shop?

That's actually a good point. So you can verify a TikTok Shop affiliate account with your EIN. This is like very niche, but like I've had problems every time that I've done that. So the way that you do it is like you set it up under you personally, and then you have a form at the end of the year that elects that it was made under this business and not actually you as a human being, which you can do. Not tax advice or anything, but like, that's how you can do it. So yes, you do have to pay taxes though.

So you get a tax form at the end? Yes.

At the end of the year?

Yes.

Right.

So at what point— I just want to know what you classify yourself as. Do you classify yourself as just entrepreneur or do you feel like you aren't employed or both?

I'm an employee. I get a payroll. Like I'm literally on a payroll. I get paid every month.

I literally like—

it takes my taxes out of it. I pay myself.

Yeah.

So you'd say that you are employed?

Yeah, I'm employed for sure. I'm employed.

Okay. And then you just branch off with that, right? There is many different niches that you can also do the branch off with because you could be employed under something and then create a business under that specific niche. Why TikTok shop?

Because it works well and makes a lot of money. Like every business ever will have a CEO that gets paid a salary. Like I'm the CEO of my company. I get paid a salary. Like I legally have to be paid a salary. Because we're an S corp. And yes, I can start other businesses under this business, use it as a holding company, open up other LLCs. This business can have different ventures. But yes, I'm a business owner. Like I own the business. I'm 100% owner. I'm also the CEO, so I'm an employee. There's not another CEO, which there could be, but I get paid as the CEO of the company, but I also own it.

So back to like what I was saying before, the first time that I came here. I was saying that you would be basically employed by TikTok, right? When you're getting a tax form from TikTok because you're making money, you're selling a product. Imagine you go into a dealership, right? And you're there, you're selling the dealership's car and you make commission. What do you make commission off these products that you sell on TikTok Shop?

Or is it like commission?

So at what point is that you're also still employed by TikTok Shop? But you are, you are an entrepreneur. You are an entrepreneur. You're selling something outside of TikTok Shop to try and help other people learn how to use it and make money.

So let's— So let's even forget about that for a second. Like, let's say that didn't exist. I had nothing else outside of TikTok Shop affiliate accounts. I absolutely am an employee of TikTok. Absolutely. Now I can put my EIN in there and I can get paid in different ways, but like, yes, you are an employee of TikTok. The only way that that hurts you is if it's like an ego thing where it's like, fuck, If it's an ego thing rather than like an objective reality thing.

So when you're selling the course to try and teach people TikTok shop, you're selling them on a basis that they're going to be self-employed and making money like an entrepreneur. But in reality, they're buying your course, but then becoming employed through TikTok, if I'm getting that correct.

Yeah. I mean, look, you can put it like that if you want to put it like that. At the end of the day, they are business owners. They do have employees underneath them. Eventually they scale up, they hire creators that now make the videos for them. They hire virtual assistants that now make the business for them. So are you an employee? It's really just like a wording thing rather than like an actuality thing. You don't have to answer to TikTok saying, hey, make this video. Like, you don't have to do whatever, like do whatever you want, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

You make as much money as you want to make. But I think it's more of just like a wording thing. Like, yeah, you technically are an employee of TikTok. You will get a form at the end of the year that like you are an employee if you use your SSN to verify, but Does it really matter, I guess, is the question. Yeah, like, it's up to you, you know, but like, you can make money from TikTok Shopping. Yes, it's fun.

Great.

Seriously, thank you guys, everybody, for coming up. I know it's