Set the Tone for a Healthy Holiday with Dr. Kahn

If you could have a candid conversation with financial advisors who have decades of experience helping professionals, business owners, and families just like yours plan for their financial future, what questions would you ask? I'm Chip Munn, financial advisor, author, host, and CEO of Signature Wealth Group. For decades, my partners and advisory teams have had the opportunity to answer the tough questions for hundreds of our clients. Now we want to do the same for you. On the Signature Life Show, you'll hear answers to your burning and most perplexing finance, investing, and retirement questions from our Chief Investment Officer, senior wealth advisors, certified financial planners, and more. We aren't just financial advisors. We're parents, children, community leaders, and entrepreneurs with a passion for helping empower our clients to live life intentionally, what we call a Signature Life.

So David, as we kind of jump in, give me a little bit about your background. Okay. Dr. David Kahn.

Yes, I have a PhD in counselor education and supervision. I've been in the counseling field for over 30 years, and I own my own private practice, and we have multiple counselors, and we work with kids from 8 years old all the way up and do a variety of issues, everything from depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, ADHD, behavior problems, couples counseling, marriage counseling. We're just kind of a full spectrum counseling service.

Well, the way I tend to frame it is you help people sort stuff out.

Most people I work with are normal people with normal problems, or people who have tried to fix something on their own and they just haven't been as successful as they would like to be. And so we help give perspective and insights to help them to hopefully be more successful.

Sure. Yeah. Well, you can't read the label from inside the jar, they say. So I think that makes, uh, again, I can only speak for myself, for mental health folks in general, it's nice to have somebody. Uh, one time somebody asked me, why do you go to counseling? And I said, it's kind of like having a best friend that you can pay to keep your secrets. Like, you could talk about anything and they are contractually and ethically bound not to say anything. You know, somebody you can just get everything off your chest.

But also hopefully someone who's going to tell you the truth and not just what you want to hear.

Yes. No, there's a lot to be said for that too. And again, not to at all discount the fact that not only are they a friend or somebody that you can talk to and tell things who can't tell, but they also have training to be able to help you sort through kind of whatever it is. And so as I, I think I told you, our goal for the fall is to kind of begin prepping for the holidays. I don't know about in your business, but now's the time that a lot of our folks, at least for example, prospective clients, it becomes a, well, I can't cause the holidays are coming. So that's how we know in the fall that the holidays are coming. And I want to spend some time talking about how we can have a good holiday season. Holidays can be really stressful. Is that just my observation?

No, no. Holidays get very stressful. And one of the main reasons are a heightened sense of expectations. People work so hard and expect the holidays to have to be happy. And so they put a lot of pressure on themselves. In order to create an atmosphere following their family traditions, making sure everything is just the same way it was or follows tradition that they had, whether it's decorating, whether it's buying the right presents, whether it's creating the wonderful family meal and trying to get everybody together. And then these heightened expectations are often the greatest source of our stress and unhappiness because things happen. In everybody's life who are coming together. Things get in the way. Work gets in the way. Illness gets in the way. Little tiffs about what this is supposed to look like or not supposed to look like can begin to affect relationship issues. And so because of those heightened expectations, when they're not met, there's disappointment, hurt, sadness. And so one of the things we have to do, or one of the things that's better to do, is to manage those expectations. Have a goal, hope for the best, and being willing to just accept what happens. That oftentimes our ability just to accept how things work out will help us to have a less stressful, more peaceful experience, not only in the holidays but in the rest of our lives. So, you know, you expect, you have this expectation you're going to have 28 people show up for your holiday meal and 15 of them cancel, and you've got all this food, and you get all upset instead of just going, well, okay, we've got the other 14 people coming, and we can take this food and donate it someplace, or we can take an opportunity to look around, and we know people who don't have families. We can invite them to come. Just accept what happens and turn it to a positive. Focus on a way to make it a good instead of focusing on the disappointment or the unmet expectation that you have. And that takes practice to be able to do that.

Yeah. The best to start now.

Yes.

It seems to me like it is an everyday thing. I was listening to something on the way from my appointment to here. I've started coaching football. So one of the things that I found it very applicable to my work and to my life is the way that coaches and players relate. So I've been watching a lot more YouTube instead of business people lately. I've been watching a lot more coaches, you know, so Saban, Pete Carroll. And a big part of one of the things that I was listening to today had to do with expectations and daily practice. And I think that it's interesting because I had never— and we probably have even talked about holidays, I'm sure, over the years, but For me, I don't know that I had drawn that parallel, that a big part of the issue is the blown-up expectations, whether it's somebody's going to love the gift I got them, or everybody's going to show up and it's going to be the Hallmark movie, you know, Christmas movie.

Yeah.

My own expectations. But I think too, what resonated with me as I was listening was the fact that Number one, everybody's stressed out. You know, everybody has that same thing going on, right? And everybody has expectations for how things are going to go, which may not line up. And so my ideal, how this is going to go, and yours, if we don't have a common set of expectations, which is incredibly difficult with the idea of what a holiday event, for example, is going to be. There are a lot of people and their emotions to be dealing with kind of all at one time and that are already kind of jacked up.

Yeah. And then we add to it that Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Day, New Year's Eve are such special days that if things don't happen on that day, then everything's ruined. When every day could be Christmas, if we think about it. We put too much pressure on making it happen in that one day instead of, well, some of us need to celebrate. Maybe we can just celebrate with parts of our family 3 days after Christmas and still share gifts. It's the Christmas season. We put all the emphasis on the day. It's Thanksgiving Day. Well, Thanksgiving happens on a Thursday. You can have a whole Thanksgiving weekend. You can have multiple meals with multiple people. Sure. But putting that pressure on it has to happen And we tend to get that focus. And so when we change our expectations by practicing ahead of time, going, "It's okay. Whatever happens is going to be all right. We'll make the best of it." And having a positive attitude is really one of the primary foundational things that helps our mental health is by looking for the positives in spite of true negatives that affect us. Still looking for a way to turn it to a good.

Sure.

How do we do that? It sounds good and it sounds simple enough, have a positive attitude, and I consider myself to be a glasses half full person for the most part. How do you do that particularly in terms of managing, again, an already stressful situation, but how do you focus on that?

Well, it takes practice to be able to look at the way that we tend to have a certain kind of thinking that becomes, in essence, more negative. And so there are 10 different ways that people do that. Some of them are like all-or-nothing thinking. It has to happen this way or else it's bad. Okay, when you could do all-or-nothing thinking, you're not thinking in a positive way. Instead of being able to go, wait a minute, how can I make it good? What can I do to make it better or good? One of the big things that go along with all-or-nothing thinking is having a should perspective. This should happen this way, or this shouldn't happen that way, or you should do this, or they shouldn't do that. That increases the intensity of our stress when in reality is, going back to acceptance, is we have to just be able to go, well, this didn't happen the way I wanted. Should or shouldn't has no bearing on it. What am I going to do now about it? All right. And then using a problem-solving method, looking at instead of having a problem, focusing on solutions. What are the solutions to the problem? We get so caught up in focusing on the problem, how it happened, whose fault it was, when none of that matters. If it's a problem, you can stay in the problem or you can focus on the solution. Right. And then that turns things into a more positive way because now the solution relieves or reduces the impact of whatever negative was there. So also looking at not making big things into mountains out of molehills. We tend to do that. We tend to see something that really annoys us and make it a lot bigger than it is. And then it affects us in a more negative way instead of being able to— that old saying of not sweat the small stuff and everything's small stuff. It takes practice. For us to choose to think in those ways and to change our belief into that things can be more positive, that things can be better or for the better if we focus on pursuing that direction.

So am I right in thinking, because you talked about the should mentality and going back to the Christmas Day, Thanksgiving Day, One of the things that we deal with a lot is just as humans, but I think you and I both as professionals, is change. And change is constant. So the idea, I think sometimes it can be really difficult when you're dealing with a change. An example would be a divorce or somebody you love who is too far away to do X, Y, or Z that you might normally do, or somebody who's passed away. Dealing with change is a big part of it. So for example, not waking up with your kids on Christmas morning, right? Or your kids going off to college. Is replacement a viable strategy? And either way, what are some other ones?

It can be, yeah, looking for how do you soften or lessen the pain of the loss when there's a major change. We all go through the 5 parts of grief or the 5 parts of loss, and we just have to allow ourselves to feel them. So, you know, if I'm feeling sad that one set of my children are going to spend the Christmas with the in-laws in Florida, well, I'm allowed to be sad. And I can also, though, accept that they're happy, the in-laws are happy that they have them and that we'll get them again next year. You know, looking for how I can affect that loss and not just stay stuck in it. And so, as we go through those 5 parts of grief, as we go through change, you're going to have anger, you're going to have the what-ifs, what if this happened, what if that didn't happen, what if I could do this? You're going to have sadness, you're going to have some denial that it's going to affect you, and then it does, it surprises you. And then you're going to have the acceptance, and the acceptance is where we want to really begin to aim to help us mitigate that. And so, replacement can be one of those ways that we help acceptance. Well, if I can't have that set of children and grandchildren here, I can focus on having fun with the ones I do have, or I can invite some other people over that can help who have children. I can watch them have a good Christmas. It's not going to be the same. I'm still going to miss my family, and it can lessen the impact.

Sure.

Because there's joy to be found.

And again, I don't remember if this was at your suggestion or not, but when I was going through the first Christmas and my kids were waking up at their mom's and all of that stuff, I ended up volunteering at the Hospice House. I dressed up. Dressed up as Santa Claus and took candy canes to the hospice patients. And the truth is, and I feel like I was pretty earnest about it in the beginning, I was doing it for them, but I was mostly doing it for me. What was to take the focus— I think sometimes it's easy to get caught up in being focused on ourself. And again, whether it's stress feelings or sadness feelings, by putting the focus on somebody else or something else, again, not in an unhealthy, right, weird way, right, or switching addictions kind of thing, but in a, all right, look, I'm too self-absorbed and caught up in my own needs or wants at the moment.

A lot of times when we have loss, we're missing the love that we can receive. And so when we focus on giving the love we have to other people, well then that takes away the loss because if we're loving outwardly, then our self-pain, our own pain, our self-focus is lessened so much. And then we receive so much more when we give to others because they give back.

So we've talked a good bit about when people aren't here, dealing with loss and missing. Everybody's got that family member that they're going to see or that they may see over the holiday season that they wish were the one who moved too far away. What are some thoughts or strategies on dealing with folks where you either you're estranged or you have conflict with when you're going to have to be together in a common space?

Well, that is going to cause stress. And so the key there is about sticking to setting and sticking to some healthy boundaries. It can be that family member who has a opposite political opinion around you, and no matter how much you've agreed not to talk about politics, they bring up politics. Well, the boundary that you set isn't on them. You can say, "You can't bring up politics around me," because certainly they can. What you can say is, "I won't talk about politics," because I can control me. And if they bring up politics, I can let them go on. No matter what they say, I do not have to bite, and I can just change the subject. Not talk about politics, talk about something else with them in response. And if I can control me, I control everyone else around me much better. If I try to control somebody else around me, they'll get to proving to me that I can't. So the key is setting the healthy boundaries around the issues that may cause the friction and even to say, you know what, I'm going to minimize my contact with them. There are going to be plenty of other people in the room. When they come to my section of the room, I'll make an excuse to go to the other section of the room, or I'm just not going to talk about the issue because it's an inappropriate time and place. Sure. At the function. And if they bring it up, I can just say, I'd be glad to talk to you about that later, and just be a broken record. And that's the only response I give. It will help me to know that I'm in control of me and my response. I'm not going to give them control because a lot of the anxiety is, What if? What if they do this? What if they do that? What if they say this? What if they embarrass me? And then that creates anxiety and feeling kind of a sense of I'm on their territory, their ground, they have control. And if I just focus on what I'm going to do, and again, play it over in your head over and over again, practice it in your head before the situation happens so it becomes muscle memory and that's just what you do.

With a lot of these things, right? It really highlights our lack of control, which for some people is harder than others. But the notion of, again, it's, I'm on my mother-in-law's turf. I'm not the one who gets to bring the XYZ. And that's my favorite thing to make. Or, or again, they're going to bring up politics and I don't want a lot of that. It just highlights, right? What is already true, which is that we don't have control over anything other than ourselves. And we all want control. It's just a natural protective thing is to come back to the list of things that we can. And I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, David, one of the things that you have to pare that back to the should. I should be able to be around someone, or I shouldn't have to deal with this on this holiday, or I've told them that you can't have it both ways. Like either you can control yourself or you can worry about what they should or shouldn't be doing. Am I right? I mean, it's really pairing some of those things together. It kind of amplifies the situation.

Yeah. And so when you come back to, wait a minute, just control me, just control me, and I can stay peaceful because I'm going to control me no matter what anybody else does. And I know that I'm going to act with integrity and I can be truthful and honest. At the same time, I'm going to pick the appropriate and right time to deal with those kind of things. And sometimes the boundary may be is I cannot be around them. These are people who have been abusive emotionally or physically, or in the past there's been so much pain. I just have to take the should off of me that I should be able to go to that family gathering with that person around and not be upset when the reality is it's too upsetting. I may need to choose just to stay home and go visit the family the next day when that person isn't there or those people aren't there.

What's the process? And again, all these things we're talking about them right now in the context of holidays, but in reality, these are daily things. But what's the proper, if there is one, or the best way? What does a good boundary look like?

A good boundary is number one, something that you feel like will give you a sense of control and power. And number 2, it is something that you will actually follow through with, right? Because if I set a boundary and I say, Chip, listen, I'm not going to talk politics. We have differing opinions. I'm not going to talk politics with you. And then you start talking politics and I start arguing with you, then you've just learned you don't have to trust any boundary I set.

Right.

So if I know that I can't not talk politics, then I need to set a different boundary and say, listen, if politics comes up, I'm probably going to say some things that you disagree with and you're probably going to say some things I disagree with. So we're going to go ahead and agree to disagree and know that we're not going to change each other's mind. But what I'm going to do is not yell. I won't raise my voice. I can do that. Right. So set a boundary that you can keep and then that generates respect, trust, and even just that small boundary will make a change in the relationship.

And I would have to think that some of the anxiety that we feel is years potentially. First off, it's easy enough to get in our own head and we can have a kind of a committee meeting of some sort as to how catastrophic anything could be. But I think to some extent, there may be years of boundary trampling. Every time I'm around this person, no matter what I've said, I haven't held to my boundary, right? I mean, I have to think some of the anxiety comes from, number one, either you're in a new situation, which is anxiety— can be anxiety-producing, or you're in a repeated situation that historically has not gone well, right? Both of those are challenging. How do you deal with enforcing boundaries, especially with people maybe that you haven't before.

Well, but again, the reason why is because you've set a boundary that you are really not going to stick to. There's some discomfort in sticking to it. So you find a boundary you know you can stick to, whatever it is. It doesn't matter how small or how large.

It's just— Or how many times you've blown it in the past.

Exactly. You can reset it and say, this time I'm not going to do that. If you find that difficult, then step it back a notch and say, okay, what is a boundary I can stick to? I can stick to boundary that when they start talking those politics— In my head I could just go la-la-la-la-la-la-la. La-la-la-la-la-la! I do for myself then we have no one doing it. And anyway whatever say may not affect me strongly because putting interference again comes back problem solving coming up solutions or mean? Not if you accept 'cause maybe now—and make continue try step over by boundaries so what's at your boundary... That helps me not to be affected by what they do, that's a very effective, positive, healthy boundary is that I'm gonna manage my emotion. I'm gonna manage my response. I've gotta stop expecting them to do anything different. And again, sometimes the boundary may be more drastic than I know I can stick to is as soon as they start talking politics, I turn around and walk outta the room. I don't have to listen.

It seems to me with all the things you've said though, it's important for me, I think, to highlight the fact that we got to be clear on what our outcomes are, not necessarily in terms of expectations. I think that we have to understand probably what our desired outcome is in an effort to enhance our own opportunities to be successful. Right. We got to get real clear.

We got to manage that. If we manage the shoulds, they shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do that. Manage those and say, I know the history of this relationship, I know what to expect, what am I gonna do differently? And then just practice in my head what I'm gonna do differently until the situation comes up and then follow through and do it differently. Because that's my goal then is to be not affected as negatively. It's not that it's not gonna be positive, I'm gonna walk around being, oh, I did that great. It's gonna be, that still makes me anxious, that was still unfortunate. However, I manage myself that I can feel good about and well enough that I was able to be more peaceful in the situation, that I was in more control in the situation because I control myself. We often experience people as they made me mad. No, they didn't. They did something and you chose to get mad about it. They did something that hurt your feelings, made you feel powerless, scared you. And then you wanted to use anger to feel powerful and to control the situation instead of going, ooh, that hurt. I don't need to be around this hurt. Let me do something about that differently than fighting or arguing back. They didn't make me mad. I allowed them to get me to that point. How am I gonna take care of my hurt, my feeling of powerless, or any fear that I have? What's my boundary to protect that, to protect myself?

The other thing with setting expectations or getting realistic is, what did I really want out of this holiday to begin with? Yeah, I'm sad that my kids are with their in-laws in Florida. What did I really want to get? And to your point, with a solutions mindset of how can I get as much of that as possible under the circumstances? It could be meeting a different day. It could, in these days, it could be Zoom or FaceTime. Again, I think that part of what we're talking about and part of the reason for the article is to give people advanced warning techniques, you know, in preparation, is to maybe spend as much time as you would brooding over figuring out ways to solve the problem. Again, I'm thinking of in-laws and my grandkids are in Florida. Can I send my present? What did I really want? I really wanted to be there when they opened their presents. Can I be there via another method? Is it perfect? No. Um, can I send my presence with them so I can see them open my presents? Well, sure, if I plan ahead. But what was that? And a lot of times, at least for me particularly, when I'm tied up in holiday stuff, right, it's that expectation. But it's the expectation of a feeling—

togetherness, love, appreciation, right? Christmas Day. Why not the day after Christmas. Right. Or 5 days after Christmas or 3 days before Christmas, before they go to Florida, have them come over and open their gifts in front of you so you get to spend that time with them. It doesn't have to be on Christmas Day. Right. Just that putting it into that small little box creates the anxiety and the stress, especially when it's not gonna happen. So accepting what is, coming up with a solution, it's not the best solution that you can, and enacting that solution will help mitigate the level of stress or the level of disappointment, or even, you know, can increase your level of joy because you get what you want. It comes back to that effective and creative problem solving. Solve the problem. Where we get stuck in stress is being stuck in the problem, being upset that there is a problem, feeling like it's not our fault or somebody else's fault or it's out of our control. We get stuck in all that instead of looking for the solution.

Focusing on the cloud instead of the silver lining. Right. And it's easier said than done.

Yeah, I'm worried it's going to rain, it's going to rain, it's going to rain. That cloud looks like it's going to rain, it's going to rain. And then when it rains, I go, it's raining, instead of going, oh, it's going to rain, where's my umbrella?

Yeah, I just left a client meeting where A lot of it, it was husband and wife, they own a business and he runs the business. And he said, "The things that she worries about, they just don't worry me." And I said, "'Cause the reason that she worries about them is 'cause you're the one who does them. You don't worry about them because you do them all the time. It's a big worry for her." And all she needs, and again, I think this is applicable to what we're talking about, is a what am I going to do? Plan. If this, then that. What is my kind of protocol so that I know? And again, I think a lot of the stress for me in situations, and I've come to practice over the years a lot more visualization than I used to, but I learned that athletes do it all the time. And so I think one of the biggest causes of anxiety for me is that what if this, what if that? And if I'm looking at it from a, oh my God, they could do all these things, right? That could be stressful. If on the other hand, I take the same amount of time and I say, all right, if they do this, then this is what I would do. I'm not reacting to it. I'm responding to it. I've already thought through a solution again that I can live with later. 'Cause a big part, at least for me, in times where I've gotten stressed is that then I mismanage it. I handle myself poorly. Then I have to deal with the regret of what I did or what I said or how I handled it. And I think that if you're gonna spend time thinking about it, think about how you're gonna resolve it. Right. Just wallowing in the—

In the what if. Instead of staying in the what if, you focus on possible solution or you come back to what is. What is, is I am an expert problem solver and so are you. And I know that because you've solved every problem you've ever had in your life up to this point. Some you've solved a little better than others. They've all been solved well enough 'cause you're still here and you're still functioning. And all of us are expert problem solvers when we focus on solving the problem instead of having the problem. And so when I get caught in the what-ifs, I often go, wait a minute, those are all possibilities. It doesn't matter which one happens. I will figure it out. And if I can't figure it out in the moment, rarely is anything an emergency that I can't say, I need to think about that before I get back to you. And then I can go figure out a solution for whatever it is and then get back.— and giving ourselves permission to do that. Yes. That it doesn't have to be immediately. Yeah.

I think that's a big thing for me, right? Is the easy does it. It doesn't have to be done right now. It doesn't have to be solved right now. I think you mentioned all or nothing, right? It's easy to ramp up the stakes. Right. And I think that we do that in part those of us who do, I'm sure not everybody does, you ramp it up in anticipation of loving that big win. Right. But yeah. Oh, this is going to be amazing. I've finally got them. I'll never forget Carson when Hampton was born. He wanted some sort of like, it was the first experience, kind of like that big brother present. Like you want, you know, he hated the idea of Hampton coming. He had been on his own for 5 and a half years. And so he really loved the Power Rangers and he wanted the Red Power Ranger video. Well, come to find out at this point, which would've been 2004, Red Power Ranger wasn't a thing. There was like one Red Power Ranger from back in the '90s. Like it wasn't a thing. And got, his mom probably still has it, a video of him. We gave him this video and he opens it up and it's not the right Power Ranger. And I've built it up. It's like, this is gonna be the greatest thing ever. And you've got the camera out and then meltdown. Complete throwout. And again, I've got it in my head that this is going to be this great win. And so it only amplifies the fact that I built it up so much instead of it just being all of us getting together. That's what it is. We're just getting together, spending time together. I've made it into the, oh, and we're going to play cornhole and we're going to do X, Y, and Z. The food's going to be amazing.

And it's going to happen at 1:00 exactly. We're going to serve right then, right? Or else the cornhole won't happen. You do all those expectations. The same thing is you build up the expectation and when it doesn't happen, then it's a greater loss. Changing from an expectation to a hope. I hope this happens.

What's the difference?

This better happen. I hope this happens. It's less intense. Sure. Strong convictions, loosely held. Right, right. Yeah, it's less intense. And if it doesn't, there's no expectation that it should have. So I can easily more accept whatever does happen. Gotcha. I wish this would happen. Right. Words are powerful. What we say in our head, what we tell ourselves are very powerful. And all you have to do sometimes is just change the word from they shouldn't have to I wish they hadn't, or I prefer that they wouldn't. Sure. It changes the intensity. Again, goes back to your ability to accept just what is.

And it has nothing to do with them.

No. And that's the other part about expectations is we project onto other people what we think their expectations of us are. And that gets a big trap. Because we can't know their expectations of us. And so we're trying to meet what we think their expectation of us are, and we don't even know if it's an expectation or not. And so that puts a lot more pressure on us.

How do you deal with that? Do you ask? Yeah. Is that weird? No.

If you want to know what someone expects, ask them. That way you can determine whether you can give it to them or not.

And at least you know ahead of time.

And that's a problem to solve if it's something you weren't expecting.

Well, I can speak for myself in ruminating a lot on things that I think other people are going to feel. When I went to coach football, I was worried about what my 10th grader was going to think. And again, I'm sure it was at your suggestion. It was like, well, just call him and ask him, hey, I don't want you to feel like I'm bailing out on you, but I'd really like to do this. Do you think? And he was like, nah, cool. I have friends on that team. That'd be great. And I could just as easily have for weeks stewed in that. In the word. Now every time it comes up, I go, "Nope, asked him." And we kind of have a rule, and I think this is probably good for families in general, 'cause again, I'm sure I adopted it. If we ask, the other person's job is to tell the truth. Yes. Whatever the truth is, that's fine.

In a kind way.

You know, oh, thank you. Yeah. Tell the truth., and then that way we can deal with what is rather than— and again, I think there are plenty of situations I can think of in all the family dynamics that I've heard of that there's no way you can know what that person's wanting or expecting from you, but you can wear yourself out for worrying about it.

Right. There's another truth too, is if I ask you what you think and you don't tell me the truth, then I have the right to operate on what you told me as if it is the truth because I have no other choice. And so if you get upset that I do what you told me was okay, I don't need to be upset that you're upset because you didn't tell me the truth. So I can only operate on what you tell me.

So anything I didn't ask in terms of trying to have as little stress, but to have a happy holidays.

When we hear it all the time, stop focusing on the material aspect of the holidays. Stop focusing on having the right exact meal. Stop focusing on giving the right exact present. Give from your heart. Don't make it a competition because most of us at Christmas time end up overspending and going into debt even in order to meet our expectation. Instead of really just recognizing that it's about the relationships and it's about spending time together. And if the soufflé falls, it probably still tastes pretty good. Hmm. Yeah.

I find this very helpful because I think that at a minimum, we are being successful by not setting ourselves up for failure. Right. Right. Because a lot of these are self-inflicted wounds. That, again, just paying attention and thinking about things ahead of time, we can avoid. Yep. David, thank you. My pleasure. Appreciate it.

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