Abbot Elementary Creator Justin Halpern on "Lord of the Flies" || Books That Changed My Life

they don't have a pot to piss in in this book. They don't have anything on the island. There is nothing of value on this island. There's nothing. There's Piggy's glasses. So all they're doing is trying to get power for power's sake. And that to me is such an interesting thing to think about and so relevant to any time in Amer— in, in world history because I think when people want power for power's sake is when so many other people are harmed because of it.

So big question: How did Lord of the Flies by William Golding change your life?

It made me—

I'm Chris Collins, and you're watching Books That Changed My Life. This week, we're joined by author and executive producer Justin Halpern. And he's here to talk about the book that changed his life, Lord of the Flies by William Golding.

I have one of your, uh, the Eggleston books. I have one of those at my house, um, because I, I became— I got really into him, and then I got really into Gregory Crewdson, um, his photography, uh, and just sort of— and obviously they're very, very different styles of photography, but just to, if you stare at 'em long enough, you start to see like, oh, there are some commonalities in these things, even though they're so different. Yeah, I really love Eggleston's stuff.

What about him?

Eggleston or Knudsen?

Eggleston.

I like people, and I like this in writing too, who can take a look at something I see every single day and don't really pay attention to, and frame it for me in a way that tells a story that I've been ignoring. And I think Eggleston does that so well.

Josh, can you do me a favor and get the Elvis Eggleston? Yeah, sorry. So I have this, uh, kind of unique one that Priscilla Presley hired him to photograph Graceland for a brochure.

Really?

She hated it and threw them all away. So it's like one of the most collectible things he ever did because there aren't that many in existence.

He didn't do shit like that either.

No. And then she hired— like, it's like she never looked at his work. Like she thought it was too big photographer, too human, or too documentary. I don't really say he's— it's documentary, but it is. But ish. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's stuff really pops because of the colors. Yeah, like there's something like really inviting about the colors, and then you start to pay attention to everything else.

Yeah, he— that, that's definitely true. It's also like, but in a way, like, it, you know, he—

this—

it's so often like a pastel or something like that and something that he's doing. So it's not like a—

but it's like a beautiful butterfly. Yeah, that you would look at the yellows or the blues and the reds And, and then you kind of— yeah, so this is it. So all of the pictures aren't him, but you'll be able to tell his. And it's so funny that this was the brochure. Yeah, for Graceland of all things.

That's so fun.

And you hire him. And so for the audience that doesn't know, he was— he's like maybe one of the most prized American photographers.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Especially too when color started. Like, he was one of the first ones to really embrace color, because believe it or not, color photography was a controversy for the diehard black and white. It's still to this day, there's photographers that think black and white is the purest form of photography.

Yeah, and a little bit, he was like kind of on the outside of, of what was considered like professional photography, you know, because—

which is so odd now because this stuff is almost perfect in a lot of ways.

Like, that looks like an Eggleston. And that— that's so funny. He is the last guy I would hire to do a brochure though. Yeah.

Oh, like, I don't even know what— what would you hire him for?

Gosh, I don't eat— that's the thing.

It's like, I wouldn't even hire him like if I was trying to sell a house.

Definitely not then.

No, because he's— yeah, I don't know. There's a certain humanity in what he does, but you, you don't really, uh, sell things by showing the humanity.

No, he— there's nothing aspirational about his That's a good way to put it. Photography. And I mean that in like the best way. It's like, it is, it's the humanity. You're seeing like raw humanity. He's capturing it. And obviously there is his eye that is a bit of a bias, right? That we all have whenever we're looking at anything. But it's as close to just raw humanity as possible. And, and that's the last thing you want when you're selling something. Yeah, I need, I need something aspirational if I'm gonna buy it.

So I'm sure like somebody at a party told Priscilla Presley like, Hey, you know, let me introduce you to this famous photographer. And she was like, oh, we're looking for somebody to do the brochure. Probably saw what his price was and was like, oh, okay, it must be really good.

That's so funny. So this is not in circulation. This is not like—

no, if you— if you collect photography books, you don't see that for sale that often.

Oh, I got to get this. That's awesome. This is so cool. We have, well, we have several of his, his photography books. Um, that's so cool. I wonder what— I wonder how that conversation went, or if she just never—

it's so fun to think about.

Yeah, because it's funny too, because I've, I've been to Graceland once, and not— I'm not an Elvis person. I was just in the— I was near there, and I was like, well, I should go to Graceland.

I should see in Memphis.

Yeah. And walking through it, I'm like, this is the tackiest place I've ever— like, the house.

Well, and it's small. I've been there too. It's smaller than you think.

Way smaller.

It looks huge when you see like video of him driving up to it in a Cadillac.

Yeah.

But inside, the inside isn't that big, and they don't let you go upstairs. Wall-to-wall carpet is an understatement. Carpet is thick too. Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's a place in the basement that's got the 3 TVs that are like lined up. And it is sort of like that idea of like when you're a kid, you're like, oh, it'd be so cool if we had 3 TVs in a room. And like, he's Elvis. So then he did it.

Yeah.

But then when you're an adult standing in it, you're like, ridiculous. This is a ridiculous room.

This is on one side of the street. They have his jet and then there's a restaurant. And when I was there, there was a Sirius Satellite Radio Elvis station broadcasting.

Oh, really? I think I went right before that.

So you can order the peanut butter, banana, and bacon sandwich on Wonder Bread, which I did, and it was terrible.

You got to do it though.

I had a heart attack right there. And then across the street is Graceland, and you have the house. And then in the back, which is fascinating, is there's this racquetball court because Elvis and his manager tried to start a professional racquetball league.

Oh, that's right.

That they had, that they were franchising. And so inside of the racquetball thing is all his martial arts stuff and racquetball. It's just the racquetball court is bigger than the house.

Yeah, the house is shockingly small. And then the weird part too is like when you check out the backyard, it's not like these rolling grounds that are gorgeous and manicured. It's sort of just like a, a big backyard, big lot, you know, and it doesn't really have any sort of thematic whatsoever. It's really bizarre. It actually kind of says a lot about him in a way. Yeah, but, but, uh, yeah, it was fascinating to— I, I found it like one of the most fascinating, uh, things I saw when I was in Tennessee. It was really, really cool just to like—

I've had friends like that that like end up hitting it big in like stocks or something where they make a ton of money, But they still come from a little town and they have no idea how to design a big house or how to live like people that grew up that way. And it feels like that with Elvis. He's still just a poor kid that had money, but he really had no idea what to do with it or how. He didn't have taste.

Yeah.

Like, his idea of taste was that necklace with the— what was this? The lightning bolt? What was the saying? Yeah, TCB. What does that stand for? Taking care of business. Taking care of business. Like, that was the, that was the most stylistic thing.

Also, he also, like, he didn't go through any other of the stages of, like, socioeconomics. Like, he kind of was just— he was broke, and then pretty quick he's rich. And so there's no sort of spot in Elvis's life where he's like, hmm, he's being exposed to things he normally wouldn't be exposed to, but that aren't, you know, sort of things that come with being a millionaire, you know, that are immediately thrust in front of you, you know. And so I think he just like, I think there was an arrested development as to what he thought of like wealth was. And obviously coming from, you know, my father was a sharecropper. So I mean, he grew up a sharecropper. And, and I think for him too, he always is like, there's a house on a hill. That's what you do when you're rich. You live on a big hill and then you have like a fancy TV and like That's, you know, and so I think that that was Elvis.

That's Elvis. Yeah, so funny. Yeah, it's great. It, um, see, I could, I could show you stuff all day and, uh, and, uh, you know, the stories behind things are interesting. Also, like, the interesting thing about Memphis is the Lorraine Hotel.

I did not get to visit that.

So the same day I went to Graceland, I stood where MLK got shot at the Lorraine Hotel, and that is, uh That's sobering.

Yeah, we— yeah, it's like on that second story, right?

Yeah. And then you can— the, the kind of window or whatever that is that they shot— whoever shot him shot through is still there, which is so like— I don't know, I don't know. I guess you preserve the Lorraine Hotel, but why do we preserve the place where the gun—

I know, yeah, like preserving the vibe, tear that thing down.

Because it's really eerie just to be like, oh yeah.

But in some ways, maybe that's sort of the point, you know, of like confronting that uncomfortable reality that, you know, it— yeah, I always have that similar feeling when you— honestly, when I visit any sort of like place where like just a real act of violence has taken place, of just being like, should we be sealing this in for, for others to see. But then in other ways, it's like, well, then how else are we like that? We're allowed to have such distance from it, you know, as people who weren't there or weren't alive at the time. And should we have that distance, or should we be forced to confront that act of violence? Because obviously history repeats itself and these things happen over and over again. Yeah, yeah, it's really, uh, uh, yeah, I need, I need to go there.

Memphis is an interesting place. I had those two experiences in the same day. So really, hotel and then Graceland?

Yeah, who set up your, uh, itinerary?

You know what, I was there for a meeting and, uh, I was like, oh, I gotta, you know, Lorraine Hotel was first and it's kind of closer to where I was staying, and then Graceland, you gotta drive out.

Yeah, it's ways out there.

Yeah, I don't know, I just wanted to see it while I was there.

Yeah, no, that's, uh, yeah, we were kind of coming from the other direction and we were, we had been going on a, like, a river trip. We'd been like rafting, canoeing on a river, and I was like, well, we're not that close, we're not that far from Graceland, let's do it. So we decided to do it, but yeah, it There is like a real, um, because I'm from Southern California, like that's where I've never lived outside of Southern California. Um, so for me, even just going to older parts of our country feel new and, and, and sort of shocking to me. Like, this has been around since when? Because the closest thing, it's like there's a taco shop near my house that's been in there since the '50s, and that's kind of iconic. But other than that, in San Diego, you know, other than the Mission, There's not— it doesn't— doesn't know that history.

You know how some countries have mandatory military service?

Yeah.

That we should have for California and New York. We should have mandatory live in the Midwest for a year.

Absolutely.

Because so many times I'm in a conversation and I just realize people have no idea what they're talking about. They don't understand the majority of this country at all. They think L.A. and Manhattan is America and it's not.

Absolutely. I, I think that, and I think that, uh, let's tack on mandatory, uh, you have to work in the service industry for about at least 6 months to a year.

Like in hospitality?

In hospitality.

Clean hotel rooms and serve, be a busboy, like that sort of thing?

Because you're also getting that same cross-section of people that are from everywhere. Uh, and you're just sort of like learning about how the rest of the country lives because it's also you know, you like frequently hear living like in Los Angeles or in New York, like, this is the greatest city in the world and why would I want to live anywhere else? And everybody comes here. And so there is this sort of like, well, why am I going anywhere else? You know, and a lot of people just sort of stay here. And I feel like there is a sort of fundamental, we talk about this a ton in the TV business, which is where I work. Because you're trying to make shows for everyone, uh, or at least you're trying to make shows that can connect on some level to many, many people.

And oddly, a lot of the people watching TV are the ones in the mid— like, people in the Midwest consume a lot of entertainment.

Absolutely. And they— it's fun bringing it back to Eggleston. There is like a I think there is a real misunderstanding of what that person in the Midwest wants from television. Like, I think that there's this, like, thought process in, in Hollywood that it's like, oh, they want sort of like a, a more sanitized base version of storytelling that doesn't challenge any notions they might have, or sort of is simply comfort. And I think they're wanting challenging material that also just feels like it has a point of view outside of just, you know, someone studying them. You know, like, you see a show about the Midwest sometimes, and it feels like it's like the way I would talk about dinosaurs. Like, I've never met them, but I've read a lot of books about them.

You know, it also feels like a lot of times, like, we're trying— here in LA, we're trying to write stuff that lectures them or educates them on a way of life that is never going to exist for them. Yeah, that doesn't meet them where they're at, and it's lazy. I feel it's very lazy. I feel like the, the late night shows are that way. It's not funny. You just— I just feel lectured all the time, and it's like, when can we make fun of stuff? When can it be funny again?

You know, it's funny, there's this writer, this famous writer from SNL named Jim Downey who— Oh yeah, like a legendary writer. And he— I think he's the one who coined this phrase, clap-ter.

Yeah, there's a great interview of him and Conan on Conan's, like, podcast. I've seen it talking about him and Norm and how their thing was just anarchy. Everybody should watch that. Interview. I've watched it like 10 times. It's the greatest. But yeah, he says that the thing that they didn't want was Claptrap, which is the easy laugh, right?

Yeah, that's why, like, I love working in comedy, because it's hard in working in the arts to ever get a feeling, as someone who, who makes art, to, to get a sort of objective response, like objective metric of, of success, right? Like, if you make it— if I make a drama And I show you that episode of TV, you know, you could tell me at the end of it, I loved it. And I wouldn't really know. I might, but I probably wouldn't. But if I make a comedy and you don't laugh, then I know you didn't like it. And if you fake laugh, I know, right? And so one of the things I love about it, making comedy, is there's an, it's not a subjective metric. It's like, it's making you laugh or it's not. And that's why I love that term of clapter, because that's not your body's response to humor. That is your body's response to, I agree with what you're saying, right? Um, and so that's what I love so much about making comedy.

Do you, uh, have anything that comes to mind of something that you've written that you really think is the opposite of clapter that really Let me think.

Yeah. Yeah. So before I worked on, before I started doing Abbott Elementary, I made this show, uh, this sort of R-rated animated show for HBO Max called Harley Quinn that was based off of the character, but it was sort of just like this, this R-rated cartoon that was just a comedy and Often in that show, we would be like heading towards— when we were writing it, we would be like heading towards, um, a joke where I was like, this is going to piss off a portion of our, our audience, but the portion that it doesn't piss off, they're going to love it so much and it's worth it. It's worth it. It's worth it. And it was actually on that show that I started realizing, like, I want to stop saying I want to make good shows. And instead, what I'm going to start saying is I want to make someone's favorite show. Like, I don't— I no longer want to just make a show that we can all watch and be like, that was good. I want to make someone's show where they're like, you got to watch this show. This is my favorite show because that means I've like hit them on some real emotional level. That they have to talk about it. Like they have to tell somebody about it. And obviously that happens so many different times in so many different mediums of art. But to me, that's my goal is can I make something that someone, it's their favorite thing. And that's what I, and in order to do that, you have to take big risks. You can't go for Claptrap because nobody's, Nobody calls up their friend and is like, oh my God, this one joke I just agreed with, you got to hear this one. You know, it's, oh my God, this joke was so funny. I can't stop laughing at it. You know? And so that show really taught me, like, there's a line and it's okay to draw a line in the sand because what's on the other side of that line, even though not everyone's going to come with you, is everyone's favorite. It might be someone's favorite show.

By the way, when we were talking about you coming in a couple days, the boys were talking about that show just like that.

They were like, really?

Because I was like, what, the movie? And they're like, no, it was this cartoon, and it's so good. And they were just like, it's the best, you know. They were, they were really enthusiastic about it, and it had that effect. So in the world that we live in today, where the climate is to not offend anybody, and be politically correct? Do you have to have enough creative control to be able to offend people? Do you have to argue and defend it? Like, what happens when you're trying to make something that is taking that risk of, hey, I'm okay if I offend half the people, I'm looking for these people.

I always— and this is what I say to the writers too— I say like, let's check which way, why we're laughing, right? Let's, let's, let's make sure that, 'cause to me, a big reason for comedy is it allows you to punch up, right? Like it allows you to tackle, and, and I don't mean that in the sense of like, oh, you can make fun of whoever's president or whatever. I mean that, that might be it, but I mean in the sense of like, are you going after something? Is the, the laugh that you're going after something that is hard to get, right? It's, it's easy to punch down and make a certain— and that's also like, it's easy to punch down and make a joke that's going to make a certain amount of people chuckle.

But that's closer to Claptrap.

That's closer to Claptrap. To me, it's the same thing. And so I think for me and the writers, it hasn't actually felt harder to me to be funny right now. What— what— it's always been hard to be funny. And I think the thing I actually kind of like about right now is that it's challenging me, at least the way that I feel. It challenges me to be sharper, to be— so that when I go after sort of sacred cows or if I go after something that is going to piss off a certain section of people, that it's not because I'm punching down, it's because I'm punching up at a target that really, really, uh, is hard to hit.

Yeah, I love that. So also in that interview with Conan, Jim Downey's talking about how important the timing and the wording is, and he, he explains how Norm just had this ability to wait.

Yes.

And most, most comedians want— when there's silence, they want to fill that silence. They want to please the audience. And Norm could just sit there and let them hate it. He could just sit in that emotion and not give in. And even like a lot of times with Norm, you would, you, you would hear people in the audience get it later. Like, yeah, they don't get it right away. You had this, you had to give them, because it was so clever and so well written and delivered in a, in a way that, you know, was just at a higher level. You, you don't always get it in this. You got to think about it. It forces you to think in a way. But it was all the timing and the work. Like, the— which, what surprised me is the amount of work that Jim would put in just moving one word around in the joke and what a difference that would make in, in the delivery.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things too about Norm and why I think he's, he's maybe the, the best Weekend Update guy that's ever been is because he, he enjoyed an uncomfortable silence. He enjoyed how it was making people feel, and he would use that feeling to build towards the next joke. One of my favorite Norm jokes in, uh, in Weekend Update is, uh, and it's so stupid, it's such a stupid joke, but it makes me laugh and I think about it probably a few times a year, is he's, he says, uh, uh, number one on the Billboard charts this week is Better Than Ezra, uh, and number two on the charts is Ezra. Which is such a stupid fucking joke. It's so bad, but it's so good. It's so funny. And at the time when he says it, it does not get a big laugh. And you can tell he's like, no, no, no, fuck off. This is a really good joke. And I'm just going to sit and make you either recognize that I think it's really good or I'm going to let you laugh because you figured it out, you know? And that's what I appreciate so much about, about him and just that style of comedy where it's like You're— and I believe this to be true with like, and it's hard to remember in my business, but it's true with just art in general is like you can only make the thing that you think is really great, right? Anytime, especially in TV, anytime you're like, oh, well, this kind of show is selling right now, or, oh, this is— this genre is doing really well right now. Let's, let's concoct something that, that hits these quadrants. Like anytime you do that, you fail because it's not coming from anything in you that you're desperate to get out or that you believe in so much, right? Like, that's that, that extra thing that makes it special.

Yeah, high art always comes from a place of authenticity. And, um, yeah, it can't be mimetic in that way. Yeah, be chasing it.

Totally.

So are you comfortable with, uh, with those courageous moments of making the audience sit?

I'm getting better at it. It's hard because I, I please also— it's hard. Yeah, you want to please. Like, it's— I get what— I, I get why people— I get why laughter exists, right? It's that moment. Because essentially, like, I talked to one of, one of my good friends who's a comedy writer about this all the time. It's like— and you may feel this way too— but when you make something or when you write something especially when you write something and you put it out into the world, there's a certain part of me at least that what I'm actually putting out in the world is I'm asking the world to tell me whether or not I am a worthwhile human being, right?

Yeah.

Listen, that's my own shit that I talked to a therapist about, but I don't, I think if for a lot of artists, that's, that's part of it, right? And so as it sits out there and you're saying, am I worthwhile, human? Everyone tell me, am I worth it? And there's a silence. In that silence, I begin to fill it.

Yeah.

And that those thoughts that fill it are like, fuck, I'm not, I'm actually not. I screwed this up. This sucks. And then there's this opportunity to take an off-ramp and that off-ramp is essentially clapped or punching down, like going after something that will, you know, in your head is not truthful, but you can trick yourself into feeling like, oh yeah, no, they do like me. They just clapped.

Can we call your therapist really quick? I want to know who's more broken, the one that can sit in it or the one that has to please, because it all comes from a place of brokenness.

Absolutely.

In a way. But which one is— which one needs more therapy? Which one's going to be better for the therapist bank account.

I think they're both gonna pay a long time.

Yeah, we were doing the math earlier on therapy because we were talking about, uh, somebody who went to therapy twice a week for 15 years, and, uh, it adds up to a lot.

Yeah, I mean, listen, that's a big business. That's why it's a big business.

It's funny. That's so great. So let's, let's get to the part of you that is the broken part. So you grew up in San Diego?

I grew up in San Diego.

What did Dad do?

Uh, my dad was in the Navy, and then he— as the Navy took him to San Diego, so my dad was in the Vietnam War. He was actually in the Tonkin Gulf incident, the, the incident started the war. He was on the boat that started the war. Um, and then after he got out, and I lived in this sort of naval community, a bunch of Navy officers lived in it, and, um, he was a cancer researcher. So that's what he did. He was a doctor on the ship in Vietnam. And then he did cancer research for many years. And I would actually, I would have to, he's an amazing guy, very tough, tough guy. And he would very often, my mom decided to go to law school when I was 10. And so my dad had to like sort of pick up a lot of the slack. And so I would spend many, many hours after school. He'd pick me up from school and he'd go back to work and I'd be in the cancer ward of these, of the VA, and I'd be there for hours.

That's bleak.

Yeah. The VA on the best day, very bleak. Even if everyone's feeling great, not a great color scheme in there.

It's not, it's not designed.

No, no.

For cheer and joy. No. And, uh, designed for kids.

No, no. The funniest thing I remember is I remember one of the first weeks I was there, I'm like, he puts me in his office, which was literally like 8 feet by 8 feet, was tiny. And he's like, I gotta do some rounds. Uh, and I was like, I— he's like, do your homework. And I didn't have any homework. I was like, I don't have any homework, I'm done, I don't have any. And he looks around and he sees a New England Journal of Medicine. He goes, there, read this. Read this. I'm 9.

10.

I'm 10. Yeah, I'm 10. And I'm sitting there with a New England Journal of Medicine that has like radiology scans.

No pictures.

No pictures. Yeah. And I was just like, uh.

No internet. No PlayStation back then.

No, nothing. Nothing. We also like.

Throw a ball at the wall.

Exactly. Um, so that was a lot of my childhood was spent in these, in the, in the VA cancer ward.

So then mom's going to law school. How does, how does that affect your, your junior high and high school years?

Pretty much latchkey, like latchkey kid. My brother, my brother. So actually, so my, I'm from my dad's second marriage. My dad's first marriage, remember, he's a cancer researcher. And when my brothers are, my half brothers are 1 and 3, his wife dies of cancer.

Oh yeah.

So he was— and they're older, they're, um, 9 and 11 years older than me. So when they were 1 year old and 3 years old— 1 years old, 3 years old. So he was going through it, had a 1 and 3-year-old.

He's raising them on his own.

Raising them on his own. And then he meets my mom at like—

and she kind of accepts this band of Muslims.

Yes, she does, she does. She calls it Boy Island because she was like, no one there knew how to do—

do you even have a girl dog?

No, no, that's what she said. She's like, no one knew how to do anything for themselves, but they would just, so it was, um, and so, you know, like when they were, she was in law school, he was at work. My brothers had, had at that point left for college. Um, and it was just me by myself and I would walk home from school and I'd, you know, open up the house and, and then I'd just be by myself until—

so were you kind of an only child for your age group?

Yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, I'd be there till, you know, 7:30, 8:00 when my mom would come home. My dad would come home around 10:00, and that was kind of it, you know.

So what kind of kid were you?

Well, I loved sports. I was a good baseball player. I ended up playing in college.

What position?

I was a pitcher.

Oh wow. Yeah, you, you got a strong mind. You like psychological warfare.

Yeah.

Step into my box.

I know, I know. Yeah. I wish I had a stronger one. I would've gone a little farther. But I was always, I always feel like this. I played with several guys who ended up playing Major League Baseball and I feel okay in saying that I think it's a huge benefit to you in pro sports to be a little dense, to not understand the context of what's happening. Because that was always my problem is I'd be like, oh shit, This is, this is the last inning. Like, I'm pitching the last thing, we're up 1. Like, it's a lot of pressure. Like, you know, and if you, you're just like sort of a guy who's just solely focused on like, like baseball, I gotta throw it hard, you know.

Well, they don't— they say the best quarterback's the one with the short memory because you throw an interception, you gotta go right back out.

Yeah. And this like incredible belief in yourself that, that, uh, all this like cognitive dissonance where bad things are happening because of you, you've screwed things up and you're like, that wasn't because of me. I'm the best.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to do.

Yeah. You got to— you have to have that belief in yourself. And I just never did. But yeah, so I was, I was a kid who, you know, I, I liked to play sports. I would watch a lot of sitcoms. I loved watching sitcoms when I was the babysitter. TV was my babysitter. And the funny thing was, is I was not allowed to watch TV during the middle of the week, but they didn't know because they weren't home until really late. So I would like turn it off, the thing where I would know that when, right when they were about to be there around the time, I'd turn it off about like 10 minutes before that so it wasn't warm because he'd feel it to see if the TV was warm. And if it was warm, he knew, you know, I was watching. And I would kind of be left to my own devices a bit. And that was actually the first I got into writing before I even really got into reading. I would just kind of like write little stories and things like that.

How old when you wrote your first story?

Probably like 12.

Do you remember what it was?

Yeah, it was about a ba— it was about a baseball player.

It was terrible. Um, well, I mean, just that in and of itself is great.

The funny thing is it was about a baseball player who loses the big game, and I have no idea. I can't remember back to why I chose to do that. But I had, uh, I always had a huge fear of letting people down. Like, I don't know exactly why.

What does your therapist say?

My therapist says I was afraid of letting my dad down, you know?

Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah, well, there, that's a straight line.

Yeah, I mean, my dad is a guy who is, um, he is honest to a point where it is, it drove, he would tell you this himself, drove a lot of people in his life away. Like, he just is, he'll, he's just always brutally honest. Like, always. He will never lie. Um, and that is like a hard way to live. And when I was, when I was 10 or 11, I thought that was how you were supposed to live. I thought, this is this guy. I revere him so much. I love him so much. This is how he lives. And so anything less than that is a, would be a disappointment, would be a failure. Um, and I specifically remember this one time when, um, I was a kid. So my dad's, you know, essentially a scientist, right? And I had a science fair project and the project was, um, I chose the project I chose was can dogs recognize shapes? And my dad's like, okay, great. Let's, you know, do the project. Here's how you're gonna do the project. You're gonna have a few shapes each day. You're gonna show the dog the shapes, and if it's a triangle, they get a treat and whatever. It was like, you know, oh, if it's a triangle, they sit, and then you give them a treat. You teach them how to sit, and over the course of however many days, we'll see if they can learn it. So he checks out, he's busy, right? So I forget to do it. I do it the first couple days and then I forget. And then I realize, oh shit, my, Project's due the next day. And I, and my, the reason I know that is my dad says, how's the project going? And I said, oh, it's going great. I haven't done anything. And he goes, well, what was your conclusion? What conclusion did you come to? And stupidly I said, well, dogs can recognize shapes.

Should have gone the other way.

Yep. Should have gone the other way. And he goes, oh, okay. Well, let's go out. Let's show me.

What kind of dogs did you have?

I had just a mutt. This— so we go out there, my dad goes, "Show me the dog can recognize shapes." And I was like, "Well, not all the time." I'm starting to backpedal. He's like, "That's not what you said your data shows. Your data said— you said your data shows the dog can recognize shapes. That's the conclusion you came to." You're in deep trouble. So I— I try to do it. The dog can't recognize anything. The dog is not even paying attention to me. And my dad— takes my— he opens up my folder that's supposed to be full of my data, and it's empty. It's completely empty except for the first 2 days. And he goes, he goes, "You have shamed the entire fucking scientific community." I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think we were— I wasn't like third author on a study.

And you're in junior high.

Yes. And he takes it. The best part was he took it and he threw it in the backyard and my dog ran and got it and brought it back.

So it could recognize you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely knew how to fetch. And I felt this, like, immense— like I had let down this man who, like, this was his ethos of life, was you don't lie, you tell the truth, you— even if it hurts, even if it alienates people, even if— and as I got older, I would obviously now looking back, it's like I realize there are other— there's lots of ways within that to live your life that aren't so hard-lined, you know.

You know, you know, uh, what the connection is here though with comedy writing?

What?

You can hide the truth in comedy.

That is absolutely true.

So you developed—

totally right.

You developed the love of comedy because the, the truth that your dad was delivering was too harsh. You had to disguise it. Yeah, because you can disguise truth in comedy, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the power of it.

All comedians are broken. It's like, because, because you have a unique perspective. Like, I was, I was also thinking when, when you were, when you were kind of telling your story, is you also are kind of hyper-aware, which great comedians or comedy writers, they see the world different. They see details everybody else doesn't see. They notice things that we just kind of blow by, and they're like, no, like, this is funny. Like, you should— you know, it's the things that we, the rest of us mortals, don't notice that you notice that actually is where the funny starts sometimes.

That's, that's really, that's really interesting. I hadn't really ever thought of it that much.

You paying your therapist?

Yeah, too much. Too much, maybe.

Not enough, maybe.

Yeah, no, that's—

but that is it, right? Like, you can hide Yeah. And you, you also can help other people with the truth with, you know, hey, we could make fun of it, but it is— there's just always a little truth in, in the comedy, you know?

Yeah. It's so funny because, you know, I make this show now called Abbott Elementary that's about sort of the public school system, and it's a comedy. And we've watched—

I watched it.

Oh yeah. And, and we always talk about how Our nightmare is we never want to do a very special episode of Abbott Elementary. Like, we'll never do it. We, we, we, anytime we get near something that feels like a very special episode, and yet in our show, so often we are doing exactly what you said, which is sliding the truth about public education and what it's like and how it feels to be someone on the ground of it and how unsupported you can feel and all the problems with it. We are sliding that into the discussion through a funny show, right?

Yeah, like if your dad said it, everybody would be like, yeah, okay, but we don't want to face that. It's true, but it's too hard to accept. Yeah, we'd rather ignore it because we don't even know where to start. Yeah, but when you do it the way you're doing it, it's like, oh yeah, you know, it's an easier way to enter.

Yeah, and I think the key for us, at least at Abbott, is we always ask ourselves, the first question is, is it funny? That's the first question. And if we, if our, is the story we're trying to tell funny? And then after that, we can go to, if we can answer yes to that, then I'm okay moving on to, okay, and what are we talking about? Like, what are we actually gonna say? Because if you start with, what do I actually, what's the point I wanna make? And the second part is, and how do I make it funny? For me at least, I think you end up with something preachy, you end up with something on the nose, and you end up with something that people watch and they clap at. Wow.

That's a great, that's a great, uh, lesson. Yeah. You gotta, how you start is how you finish, right? It's gotta start funny and then you can put the peas in, you can put the peas in the mac and cheese.

Right, exactly. The medicine goes down. We're covering something sweet.

Wow. I mean, that's so fascinating. Just all of those nuances that you understand.

Well, I feel like, you know, we've, we partially, I think, you know, the, the, my partner in doing the show, Patrick Schumacher and Quinta Brunson, who is the star and the creator of the show. I think we were all aligned in this idea of like, there's a version of this show that people feel like it's preaching to them, and none of us were interested in making that version of the show. So I think, again, it's— I think it's what you were just saying. It's like, I want to tell the truth, but I don't want people to tune me out, you know? I want to feel like people are listening.

Because with your dad, it's too much.

Yeah, which I, I would tune him out. Yeah, you know, and he's—

it's true.

Yeah. All the time.

Too much.

Yeah, it's just, it's a, it's a fire hose.

Yeah. Well, and then just kind of bring— bringing that full circle is in the Midwest. They don't want that. Like, no, they don't want that. They make me laugh.

Yeah. And don't condescend to me.

Yeah.

You know, people hate that in any walk of life, anywhere you're at. People hate being condescended to. It's like, we all do, and it happens quite often, right, to all of us. And it's just like, it's always a bad feeling. You walk away, it's, it's, it's worse than just, um, making a joke that doesn't land. It's like you elicit an opposite response of like, well, I actually hate this.

Yeah, no, I, I think you— I experienced that a lot with stuff that's just like, ah, okay, I get it, I know exactly what you're trying to say, I don't need to watch the rest of this.

Yeah, get it. Exactly. I never want to get to the point where someone's like, I get it. I don't need to watch the rest of this because the goal is I want to watch all of it.

I experienced that with the— what's the last— the latest DiCaprio movie that everybody loved? It's 3 hours long.

Killers of the Flower Moon.

I watched the first part of that when, like, his whole power thing and getting a boner and all.

And I was like, okay, Wolf of Wall Street.

No, the— you're talking about One Battle Out for Another. Yeah, one battle after another. Like, I get it. I was 30 minutes in. I'm like, I get it. Like, I'm not going to— I don't need 3 hours of this. I don't understand why everybody thinks it's so great. I feel like you're just preaching.

You know, it's funny, that's my takeaway because I enjoyed that movie a lot. And I think the difference— I understand what you're saying. I think the funny thing for me was, to me, that movie's about the decisions you make as a 23-year-old are dictating your life as a 40-something-year-old. And that idea was interesting to me. The— like, I didn't even see it as a political movie at all. I saw it as a movie about how me as a middle-aged man, I'm living the life that was decided for me by a 23-year-old or 25-year-old, 27-year-old. And I don't even know if I would be friends with myself at that age. Yeah, I think I probably wouldn't. And now. And so that was the idea that I sort of loved about that movie, was, man, I don't even like that person, and that person got to decide my whole life.

Yeah, I didn't get that far. My— so my fiancée is like, always like, you got to finish that movie, it's so great.

And I'm like, I don't know, I think I, I'm just sensitive too.

Like, I'm just tired of being preached. I I think I'm hypersensitive with that, which probably isn't good either.

But, um, well, I think that's sort of the media environment we're in right now, right? I mean, if— I would say the only way people aren't hypersensitive to that is that they just haven't been digesting much media.

I'd rather go back and watch old Sam Kinison, like, you know, Jesus wasn't married.

It's funny, my dad loves Sam Kinison. Love. So we had two— we only had two, um, that's funny, VHSs at my house. One was, um, Eddie Murphy Delirious, and the other one was the Sam Kenneson special, and that was it. And I used to watch them over and over and over and over again.

Was the Jesus joke on this? Yes, you know, Jesus wasn't made. It's so funny. So, um, how does Lord of the Flies come into the picture?

So it actually kind of fits in with exactly what we were talking about in terms of what my life was like, is I was watching all these sitcoms, watching, watching. My dad is like a voracious reader. Like, he watched the evening news and then he would get 3 fingers of whiskey and he would read, and that would be the rest of his night. Like, he would just sit and read.

Was he reading books, medical journals, everything?

Yeah, he'd read medical journals too, but, but he mostly read books. He loves fiction, nonfiction, all of it. He's so well read and, uh, and loves it. And so And my mom would either be working on a case or she would be in law school and studying. And so I was by myself and again, I would be, until they got home, I was watching sitcoms. And I just had this like, for up until probably 12 years old, I was just like, had this, I think I kind of like resented books. Because my dad would sit and read all the time. And I remember one time he said to me, he was like, it was a Saturday morning and he goes, hey, do you wanna go to breakfast with me? I was maybe like 13 or 14. And I said, yeah, yeah, let's go to breakfast. And we go to Denny's down at the bottom of the street that we lived on. And we sit down and he takes out a newspaper and I'm there, And he's here, he takes out a newspaper and he starts reading it and it covers the entire visual of me and he reads it for an hour and then our breakfast is over and I didn't even see his face. And I was like, you asked me to go in my head. I'm like, you asked me to go to breakfast with you. Like, in your head, is this what breakfast with another human being is? And I remember it pissing me off so much. Just to like, why'd you even ask me to do this? Like, in my head, I was so angry about it. And I think that I thought— and, and it's funny, and, and I've brought that up to him since, you know, and he doesn't really— doesn't remember it, but he, he talks about it and he's like— and he'll say, he's like, I didn't think of it like that at all. He's like, to me, this, like, love is to be able to, like, sit with someone and you don't have to speak. You're just, you know, you, you're both enjoying something near each other and And it's just very different for me. And so I think I had this resentment of books because they were taking my father's and mother's time away from me. And again, my brothers were already out of the house, so it was just me. And I also had kind of a funky attention span, probably because I was watching too much TV. And I just didn't really read at all. Um, and I remember my dad being like, all right, you, you need to start reading because this is now concerning to me that I'm never seeing you crack open a book. When he was a kid, he was just reading nonstop.

Did you feel like you weren't good at reading because you couldn't pay attention?

Yeah. Yeah. I felt like it was like I wasn't rising to the challenge of what was being put in front of me.

What kind of grades did you get?

Mediocre.

Okay, so that probably was an issue too, right?

Yeah, um, I was— yeah, mediocre grades. Um, and I remember my dad being like, you gotta pick something, like, you're gonna read a book this month. And, uh, I went through and I was just looking for whatever was shortest through his books. Yeah, yeah. And it was like, you know, he had like we lived in a small house, but the house had stacks of books. Like, and we had—

Dad and I would have gone along really good.

He's— he loves stacks of books.

And so this one was the smallest?

That was the smallest. That was the smallest I could find.

You weren't— were you looking at page numbers? Because this thing's 300 pages.

Yeah, but you should— Dad was reading some big stuff, like Gone with the Wind. Yeah, yeah, he had, you know He had some real, real big ones in there. And so I picked Lord of the Flies and it was the first time, you know that, I mean, you obviously know that, that moment where you're reading a book and then all of a sudden it feels like you just click in and now you're on a ride, you're on a roller coaster. You're not in control of it, you're just going and you just want to keep going and you can take your hands off the wheel. You know, you know you're in good hands. You know the story is moving. You just are lost in it. And that was the first book that I ever read where that happened, where I just remember I was like, I just kept reading it. I just kept reading it.

And had you written your first story about—

I had. That's what's crazy is I had written my first story before.

This probably was just pouring gasoline on fire.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Because that was the other part of it was And I don't even think again, like, I didn't pick it because I read the back and I was like, oh, this sounds interesting to me. I read it because it was the shortest one that I could find.

Well, it's so funny, you know, having these conversations with people about books that had an effect on them. And so many times the books randomly appear and it isn't a person. Like, sometimes it's like my dad gave me that book because he knew I needed it. That happens, but it's very rare. But a lot of times it's like No, I just ordered off Amazon because I like the COVID or, you know, something very random that happens. And then all of a sudden it becomes this, you know, this pivotal thing in somebody's life, which is— there's like a magic to books that way where they meet the moment and you can't explain why.

Yeah, that I've found has not— I don't think I've ever had that sort of experience with anything else that I've consumed in media. Books hit in a way that nothing else for me kind of hit. And I say that as somebody who makes TV.

Well, what's perfect about this book too is that your age is the age— this is a book for a 13-year-old boy.

Really?

More than anything. So for the audience, if they haven't read Lord of the Flies, just kind of explain What the book is about.

So it's about this group of boys who are from a boarding school, but you never— you don't start at the school. You don't start— they're on a trip. You don't even start on the trip. The book starts with there's been a wreck and they are on an island and it's just them.

And it's— isn't it during World War II?

And there's no adults that have made it. And it's just them. And they're— and you start actually even before you meet all the boys, you start with Ralph and Piggy. And Ralph is the main character, and he's this sort of sweet kid who clearly has— is one of those kids who follows the rules at boarding school. And, and Piggy is sort of this precocious kind of kid who can't stop asking questions and And the thing that's so interesting about the book, so, so anyway, the, the, the, the thrust of the book is all the boys who have been sort of shipwrecked on this little island find each other very quickly. And then what ensues is this like tribalism that happens. Um, and it, it goes into really like, I think it's a book about the nature of man. Um, that's what I think.

Unpack that a little bit.

Well, I read this interview after, as I've read this book several times and I, and I obviously wanted to know more about what Golding was thinking, the author. Um, and I read this interview with him and he said, uh, I purposely chose this book to not have a female presence and to not have an adult presence. Um, but, but even more purposely the female presence. And he said in the interview that um, he wanted to show what happens to men when the only thing at stake is just power. There's nothing else for them there. Um, and I think it's crazy to think about him wanting to show that 75 years ago when he's writing it, because to me that's a really progressive idea, right? This like examination of like masculinity and like the nature of men and like primalism. Because I think it's, it's so often— and he sort of talks about this, but what I was extrapolating from it was like so much damage is done simply by wanting power for power's sake. And so the question the book asks is, to me, is, is that innate? Is that, is that, are we, do we have that inside of us? Is that already there? Or is it something that we learn and something that we choose? And to answer that question is to solve many, many problems in the world.

It's complicated.

It's a heavy question and it's really complicated. And he does it. He examines that question through these kids who are essentially kind of, um, blank slates when you meet them, right? Like Jack has— Jack's the antagonist— Jack, Jack has obviously a different personality than Ralph does, right? He's a little, he's a little bit more ambitious, you know, like there are things that you can tell Golding's putting in there about him that are innate, right? But there's also decision-making. That's happening and rejection that's happening. And is the rejection causing him to do that? Right? Because really, when Jack turns is when they're voting who's going to lead this group of kids because they need a leader. Right? And he loses the vote. Right? And rejection as a man is such a powerful motivator. And it's what he's showing. Right? It's taking a kid who like, And one of— that's one of the things I love about the book is if you probably flashback 2 months in this book and you're seeing Jack at boarding school, he might be one of the kids you like. You might want— you might be at school and you might see that school and think, this is a funny, charismatic kid who's just like ambitious. And like, this is the kid that's going to be valedictorian. This is the kid that's going to go make a fortune out there and maybe be this like really loved person, right? But on this island, that ambition mixed with rejection, mixed with isolation, then creates a murder, right? And to me, that is what— that's why I feel like the book is a book about masculinity and more than it's even a book about like innate survivalism and things like that, because I think that's really what it seems like. He was interested, and that's what I got out of it.

So how do you think that is relevant today?

Because I think that there are— I mean, you look at sort of, especially in America but all over the world, like, you look at these sort of like people who are titans of whatever industry they're in, right? And they've made more money than they could ever spend in a bazillion lifetimes, right? And you— the— and they're now so entrenched in the policymaking and the, um, decision-making of our country and other countries. Um, and so the question I always have when I see these guys is I go, well, what's the endgame for you? Like, what's enough, right? Like, what makes you feel full that you don't need to make any more decisions? You don't need to do— like, what's making you want to do that, right?

I think in the kind of closest answer is power.

Power.

Control and power.

Control and power for its own sake, I think. And that's what I think is so interesting about that. They don't have a pot to piss in in this book. They don't have anything on the island. There is nothing of value on this island. There's nothing. There's Piggy's glasses. You know, there's nothing of value on this island. So all they're doing is trying to get power for power's sake. And that to me is such an interesting thing to think about and so relevant to any time in America and in world history, because I think when people want power for power's sake, it's when so many other people are harmed because of it, you know?

Yeah.

Like, I can understand— that's the thing again why I love this book so much, is like, there are ways to understand decision-making that I like deeply disagree with, right? If I can understand what their goal is.

And give me an example.

Say, okay, I'll give you just the most base example, right? Like there are the like public transportation in Los Angeles, right? There are people who feel like they wouldn't want a metro system because they feel like it's a waste of taxpayer money and other people who feel like We need to have good public transportation because that's going to help people who couldn't afford a car get to where they're going. Right. And like, I feel—

Yeah. People in Beverly Hills, they don't want people from downtown to be able to get there for a couple bucks.

Right. And at the— even just take that example, right? Even that, even though I deeply disagree with that philosophy of someone from Beverly Hills being like, I don't— I know what's behind that is I'm afraid, right? I'm afraid of what happens if people are coming into my neighborhood. Right. I deeply disagree with that. But I understand, I can understand what their end goal is, right? When someone is strictly grasping for power and I can't get to where their end goal is, like what is the goal other than power itself? Then that is a scary person to me. That is someone who there are no lines because there's not any— there's no there there. There's nothing that they're actually wanting that's tangible, that's understandable.

Well, isn't that the other part of this in the book, is that everything starts to die? Like, the— that pursuit of control and power ends up killing everything.

Yes. And I think one of the things I love about this book as well is that you start to see kids, you know, who wouldn't normally become radicalized, who are sort of just there, right, with no strong POV, right? Jack turns them into raving lunatics who are going to kill the herd.

Yeah, like, it is crazy how people function as a herd, and it takes on a soul of its own. That leaves kind of leaves common sense.

Yeah.

Then it becomes this kind of, I don't know, like just chaos.

And also I think the thing is it's like it's all these kids, their parents aren't there, right? They're—

well, that's what's genius about this. This was, this was my dream at 13, right? You and I and a bunch of our buddies were on an island with no parents, no rules. Like, that's kind of the, like, sugar Yes, that's what gets you going, is it's like, yeah, we're like, we're a team. Yeah, but it isn't— it's not a baseball team.

No, it is very much not.

It goes the other way.

It goes the other way. And I think that that's, that's what I think is so, you know, it's like these kids are obviously, after a certain amount of time, you— they feel it, right? Like at the start, it's, this is the dream. 13-year-olds Nobody tells us what to do. We're doing whatever we want. Our parents, who obviously sent us off to boarding school, they could piss off. We're having fun. And as reality gets tougher and tougher, like, instead of dealing with those feelings of like, I miss my family, I want to get out of here, I'm scared, that can— all those things can be channeled into anger, which is what Jack does, is he takes all of those fears that these kids have, and he turns it into anger, and then he points that anger right at Ralph, right? And that's what I love about that book, is, is that's— it's just the, the blueprint has always been there.

Hurt people hurt people.

Hurt people hurt people. You can channel someone's anger if you're shrewd enough. You can channel it for your own gain and towards anyone you want. If you can, if you're a good enough storyteller.

Yeah. And that's politics.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, and the thing that's cool about this story is that this story could happen now. It could happen the dawn of man. It's like, it's sort of a timeless story.

Yeah. And it has. Yeah, it's been going on forever. Forever.

And it'll keep going on.

It's, it's— yeah, it's genius. It is interesting too that he's leaving out female. A female would change the whole thing, feeling of it. It would feel completely different.

Yeah.

Men are different around females. It's just totally different.

Yep.

Yeah, that's interesting.

And it's— and I love that the only time you see an adult in this book is the very last page of the book. It's when he's, you know, he's being chased and he's going to be killed and he falls and he sees, falls in front of a soldier, right? Which is also kind of a statement of its own, right? It's like, and that's, I wish someone had asked him that and maybe they did and I just didn't see it, but he could have had anyone be the last person, the adult that they see, and he chooses a soldier, um, as the one to like— and you don't ever know how that soldier reacts. You don't know what happens, what the consequences are for these kids, if there is any. You don't know any of that. You just have this— suddenly there's— reality has checked back in and there's a soldier there.

Yeah. There's an interesting irony in here on page 115. And so we kind of have to acknowledge that we're in the middle of a war that ends with nuclear bombs.

Yes.

Right.

Yep.

It says, the grownups know things, said Piggy. They ain't afraid of the dark. They'd meet and have tea and discuss. Then things would be all right.

Not at all. That's what's—

that's not how it ends.

It is not how it ends. It's not how it ends. And that's— I mean, that's funny that you highlighted that, because maybe that's why he has a soldier come in at the end, you know? It's like, oh right, this is how human— this is how grown-ups solve things. They solve things with just guns and nuclear bombs. Nuclear bombs, you know? But there is that belief when you're a kid, and that goes back to like me and my dad. It's like this, you know, you sort of believe your parents to be these superheroes, you know, and they're just humans like everybody else.

Well, yeah, now that you're a dad—

yeah, I'm screwed up all the time.

Yeah, you're like, wow, this isn't as easy as I thought, right? Let's go to, uh, page 182. So, um, in here there's kind of this, uh I don't know, would you call it a hallucination?

I think so.

And so Simon's visionary conversation with the Lord of the Flies is, is pretty intense. You know, can you read that part on 182?

Fancy thinking the beast was something you could hunt and kill, said the head. For a moment or two, the forest and all the other dimly appreciated places echoed with the parody of laughter. You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you.

Close, close, close.

I'm the reason why it's no go, why things are what they are.

To me, this is kind of like you are good and evil. You have to embrace the shadow, and in order to really be good, you have to have the bad side. I mean, even in parenting, right? Like, you have to, you have to be hard sometimes, even though you want to be soft or you want to let things go. But you know, later on that's going to cause a problem, right? So you have to embrace the, you know, the darkness is a part of the light. And I think often where people get mixed up, and we could talk about this for days, is they don't acknowledge that. Yeah, they don't acknowledge that they're capable of evil, and they don't self-check that. Am I doing this because I'm trying to make a difference, or am I doing this because I want control and power?

Right. And also the other thing about this that, and what you said that's interesting to me is that like, I think there is a quickness to, like you said, I think we have all evil, good inside all of us, right? Like, and we can make decisions that are bad decisions that hurt people. And I think it's this unwillingness to take the time to investigate the decision we made and instead just make a broad— paint with a broad brush and be like, well, that's an evil guy. It's like, okay, well, what are the acts that that person did? And can we talk to that? Can someone reason with someone and say, You've done something that's evil. You've done something. I think sort of what he's talking about, you've done something, you have evil inside you, right? But you can also choose to do something good. And I think like when you sort of paint with that broad brush and you say, oh, well, that person's a piece of garbage, right? Then that person is going to double down on being a piece of garbage, right? It's like, because they feel like there's no salvation, there's no way out of this, right? I've been— this is what I've been in. I have a good friend of mine said the thing that they value most in their friendships is someone who is able to, like, hear when they did something that might have hurt them and to investigate it and see whether or not they agree with what they did. And if they didn't, to say, I'm sorry that that happened. And actually I'm gonna go this way from now on about it. And I think that that's, that's, you know, that's all in there. And that's kind of what he's saying. It's all there, right? And sometimes— and, and even it's more specific to what you were saying about parenting, right? Like, of channeling that sort of need to be tougher in certain moments because of that payoff later where, you know, you're like actually building strength. You're not just— you're not just sort of laying down so that it— because it's easier in the moment to be in, you know.

I mean, in a way that goes back to the Norm thing, is you got to sit there.

Yeah.

Yes, you got to sit there, right? You can't— you can't try to fill the space with noise because you know later on this thing isn't comfortable now, but it's gonna serve him better when he's out there.

Yeah.

And you're not there to protect them.

Feeling feelings sucks.

Yeah, no, it does.

Feeling feelings is really not great. It sucks to just sit and feel a feeling.

Yeah, no, it does, but it gets easier the more, you know, does. And once you kind of acknowledge that it sucks, then, you know, you can expect it.

Yeah, totally.

When it's a— when it's a surprise, it really sucks.

Yeah. Yep.

When your expectation is that it'll be different Yeah, like that's, that's the key to happiness is managing your expectations.

Totally. 100% agree.

That was a 20-year study at the London University, and the only thing they could tie to happiness was unmet expectations. Whenever you're unhappy, it's because it wasn't as easy as you thought or people didn't do what you thought they were going to do. And that's an expectation.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because like, conversely, I would say That, so like a lot of times I, as a somewhat cynical person, will try to do the opposite in order to make sure I never feel upset, is I'll be like, well, this thing's never gonna happen. This thing I want to have happen, it's never gonna happen. It's never gonna happen. Instead of just setting a realistic expectation for it, because sometimes it's okay, I think, to be like, I didn't meet this expectation. I feel kind of bad about it, you know, but that might— it sucks, but maybe that'll cause me to do something else that I really like that makes me happy.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to figure out. Yeah, it's easier when you get older, but when you're young, that's really hard.

It was hard for me, really hard. Yeah, I still struggle with it. So 196, somewhere over the darkened curve of the world, the sun and moon were pulling And the film of water on the Earth planet was held, bulging slightly on one side while the solid core turned. The great wave of the tide moved farther along the island, and the water lifted softly, surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellations. Simon's dead— Simon's dead body moved out toward the open sea. Oof, it's great writing, man. What a— like, this is funny. If I read— if I wrote a paragraph like that, yeah, I'd be done. I'd be like, great, here, I did this. Yeah, take a look at that. I mean, come on.

That's somewhere over the darkened curve of the world. The sun and moon were pulling, and the film of water on the Earth planet was held bulging slightly on one side while the solid core turned. The great wave of the tide moved farther along the island, and the water lifted softly softly surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellation. Simon's dead body moved out towards the sea. You know what, uh, what makes this so unique to me is the choice of inquisitive bright creatures. Yes, that is— I, I don't know what, what you would call it, but it breaks it. And then you don't expect what's coming next.

Yeah.

It's light in darkness in a way.

Yeah. You know, I remember— this is a passage I remember well. And I think, obviously, I don't think I understood it as anything more than a gut punch when I was 12, right? But to me, it feels like the Earth is existing with or without us on it. You know, like humanity, we center ourselves in so many of these narratives, you know, in the universe we center ourselves, on Earth we center ourselves. And to me, this is like the Earth is existing and there's beauty in it and it's happening, there's life. And we are sometimes just but a body floating in the water. Like this character who we've, you know, and Simon especially is like this, he's sort of this avatar for, like, spirituality, I think, in, in the book, right? Like, that sort of point of view. Um, and he— and you grow to, like, love him in this book, and he's now just sort of like— he's just the same as the shipwrecked pieces of the boat that are floating in the ocean. Um, And, and he's meant so much to us, but here Golding so clearly says, like, he's not really affecting the planet. Planet's still moving on. Off to sea he goes. It's really something.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, an incredible piece of writing.

Let's go to 260.

His voice rose under the black smoke before the burning wreckage of the island, and infected by that emotion The other little boys begin to shake and sob too. And in the middle of them, with filthy body, matted hair, and unwiped nose, Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy. Oh man, this one still hits.

Ah, man.

It's funny, like, I've seen a lot of the— not a lot, but the critiques I've seen of the book, the more like sort of critical things written about the book, is that Ralph is sort of milquetoast. He's a bit like— he's a bit too much of an avatar for sort of a non-specific body of us, right? But to me, this sort of— this passage right here is that he was holding on all the way to this moment that there was good worth fighting for, you know? That he, that everything he had been through, everything he had seen on this island up till this point, all these boys who had turned into murderers trying to kill him, that they killed his friend, that they, there was still like humanity worth fighting for. And in this moment, I think we all, this moment he's feeling like, It's not there. And I think that's such an interesting thing, 'cause I think like we all, at least I like that moment you were talking about here, just like seeing, going outside and seeing that we can just be this sort of like, in essence, a failed state where we can watch people suffer through drug addiction and suffer through all this, all these things. Like we confront these moments where we just feel like this is like, this is so dark, right? Um, and is, is this like, we're allowing this to happen, right? Um, and are it like these moments of crisis? Is good— is it worth still fighting for something good, right? Is it worth, or should we just retreat to tribalism? And say, screw it, I got me in mind that I'm gonna protect, and every— that's, that's the only good I know, right? And to me, that's what this is, is like, it's the first time he is like really wrestling. He's seen it already in the book, but it's the first time he's really wrestling with that idea of, is, is it worth fighting for good?

And the answer is complicated.

Super complicated. They don't answer it. Yeah, Ralph does not get an answer.

What's the answer here? It's super complicated.

Super complicated.

Because if you care about people and opportunity, you got to put more money into the schools. You guys like— yeah, there's a lot of stuff we have to prioritize because we're— in a sense, the economy is built around treating the symptom, not the cause. Nobody wants to talk about the cause.

100%.

And that's kind of like, in a sense, how power works is they distract you with the symptoms. The real thing, the real accomplishment in life is genuine connection with people and making it a better place. Not this, this power thing. You can't be trusted with that much control. You're not worthy of the— like, I think the people that should be in power are the ones that don't want it, that aren't sure they should have it.

Yes, that's always the thing.

It's like, like I remember many times doing like fixing businesses and just going back to my hotel room and being like, I can't believe they're doing what I'm telling them to do. And I hope it works.

It really is true. It's like, because anyone who accepts that amount of power Like, you have to be— who wants that amount of power? You have to have a lot of delusion, right? Like, if you're running for president, if you believe it— yeah, if you believe it, if you believe it— yeah, you can't—

you gotta make fun of yourself.

Yes. And you also have to have this notion— you have to have an ability to understand that you could be wrong and someone might be smarter than you about something. You know, and if you—

and move towards that, not away from it. Yeah, not attack it.

Yeah, seek it out. I mean, that's always what, like, in, in— when I'm hiring writers, I'm putting together a writer's room, like, the thing I covet the most is someone who has a different point of view than me, who is not afraid to tell me I'm wrong, because to me, that's the most valuable thing I could possibly have. A, even if I was just a total, like, egomaniac, like, self-preservationist, that's protecting me, right? That means I don't make a mistake that could ruin my career, make a bad show or a bad choice that ruins the thing that I'm making, right? So, like, but even just on another level, it's like, you want to run to the ideas that challenge you because they're going to help you get to something better. Or even if you decide at the end of it, I'm still right, you've investigated all of the possibilities that you could be wrong.

It's built on something substantial.

Yeah.

It's been challenged.

Yeah, it's been challenged. It's like there's a reason why you have people come and check all the work that's done on your house.

Yeah.

It's, you want to make sure you're not, you know, electrocuting yourself when you use a toaster.

It's crazy how, how timeless this is.

I know, it really is. It's a great book.

So, big question: how did Lord of the Flies by William Golding change your life?

It made me understand that I could tell a story that was highly entertaining and that made people think about something they don't want to think about. And I think that it is fundamental in everything I've done in my writing career in some way goes back to that idea that appeared in the first book that hooked me in because it was really fun to read and then tricked me into having to think about all these complicated ideas that I never would have considered at that point in my life. And that is just the fundamental tenet of, uh, for me, of telling stories.

Amazing. How proud of you was your dad that you read the book?

He was super proud. He was, he was like, and you know what's funny is I, he I said, do you want to like test me on it? And to see if I'd read it. Cause I was like, he probably doesn't believe me that I read it. He probably thinks I just like flipped through the book. I said, you can test me on it. And he goes, no, it seems like you had a good experience with it. Just keep that. And that was what he said. And it's funny because I've, I've since read tons of books that he's read and we've had lots of conversations about it, but with this specific book, He was just like, it feels like you had a good experience. Keep it. Yeah.

I don't know. There's something beautiful about that.

Yeah, totally. That's the kind of guy he is. He's a lot of the, you know, complicated guy.

How do you do that to your son?

Oh man. I don't think I've figured it out yet. I try to like, you know, he's a— my kids, my older kid especially, is a tough nut to crack and he reads so much. You know, sometimes I like to just ask him what he's enjoying about the book, and I don't ever try to weigh in on it. I'll just kind of—

'Cause you're afraid if you do, then he'll go the other way?

I'm afraid if I do, I'm robbing him of the ability to figure out the journey to get there himself. Like, I think that's part of the fun. And I want him to be able to get there. Sometimes he'll read stuff and sometimes he's like, "I'm not really sure why I liked it, but I did." And I'm like, "I bet if you think on it, maybe even a year from now, you'll start to be like, 'Oh, I think I know why I like that.'" Yeah.

Also, it's interesting because probably every time you've read this, it had a different message or a different angle. Right. So it's— books and time are the best, they're best friends.

It's incredible. It's a new experience. Like, after reading this after having kids, completely different experience than when reading it when I'm 12. I read it again when I was in my 20s. I read it a few times in my 20s, and different experience every single time. Yeah.

Were there any other books that were contenders for this when you were asked to come up with the book that changed your life?

Yes, there were. Um, I would say the two other books I was thinking about were Outer Dark by Cormac McCarthy, um, which changed my life in a different way much later in my life. Um, and same with Lonesome Dove when I read that for the first time., that, that altered a path for me at a different, another point in my life. But I kept thinking about like me as a, you know, my job as this writer, storyteller. And this one was just like, oh, this, there are the DNA of this is in so much of what I do, even though I write nothing, nothing I write is anywhere similar to this.

Yeah, but I mean, at 13 you're pretty— you're still developing in a big way.

Yeah.

So it's a part of you.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, tell me a little bit about your book that's coming out, Get Lost.

Um, it's about this woman who's, uh, in her 30s, and she, uh, her— she's estranged from her dad, who's like this very avuncular ex-minor league baseball player, um, who everyone loves But he is— he was a terrible father and is, is a lazy sort of ne'er-do-well person. And at the start of the book, she gets a call and they say her mom's gone missing. And she's like, my mom goes missing a lot. My mom has mental health issues. It's not fine, but it's fine. She'll come back. She always comes back. And they say, well, this time it's a little different. Um, the cops think that your dad killed her. And so she goes back to her tiny town in Central California and with her dad tries to find out what happened to her mom. And really, to me, it's a story about, um, how the anger that you can have towards— you're angriest at the people who are supposed to be the ones that love you the most, who are supposed to be the ones that take care of you. They can hurt you in ways that nobody else can, and how that anger, if you carry it, um, it can stop you from moving forward in your life. So it's, it's not a— it's a father-daughter book, but it's not a book about seeking apologies. It's a book about how do I move forward if that apology may never come.

So what about that is autobiographical?

Well, it's a few different things. Um, part of that is, is about— a certain part of it is like the fact that I think, um, everyone loves my dad. Everyone loves him. And so just to be in this, uh— and again, this is a guy who like bluntly tells the truth and has alienated, you know, people, certain people in his life. But in my life, everyone loved my dad, like loves him. Um, and I love him to death too. But it was, it was hard to be in a situation where, um, I had a larger-than-life dad and I was trying to like pave my own way, you know. And also that experience that I was getting, I remember one, one thing I remember so clearly, my dad was so like, it was tough living with him like he was so strict and it was really tough living with him and it was tense. I would just be tense at my house just, and he was never abusive, not in any single way, shape, or form. In fact, he's a man who tells me I love you at the end of every conversation, right? But he was just like, things had to be on point and you had to not, like, you couldn't, you know, there's a code. And so one time I'm at, I'm at, um, uh, the cancer ward and I'm like, wandering the hall because I was just bored. And he was with a patient and she was pretty close to— like, the patients he was seeing, a lot of them, they were terminal. And she sees me and he sees me kind of being like, what is he doing out here? And she's like, oh, is that your son? Come in, come in, come in. And I come in and she goes, you have the sweetest father in the entire world. She goes, what must it be like to live with a man this sweet and loving every day of your life? And I'm thinking, what the fuck did you meet, lady? Like, who did you—

this guy?

And, but it was true. It's like, and so, so part of this book is just that sort of jux— that, that, um, duality of like they're not seeing the same person that I see, right? In this book, in my book, in Get Lost, he's not a good person, right? He's not a good father, but he's so charismatic and everyone loves him. And she is a very kind of like bitter, sardonic person that people generally don't like. And, but she is a person who is like really, I think, tries to do the right thing and that's never rewarded.

But that moment is— was the birth of—

that moment was the birth of the book.

And then it's like, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story after that.

Yes. And, and then the other part of it is, um, it's a lot about, um, you know, the fact that he was my— my mom, uh, spent a lot of time— she grew up partially in an orphanage, but one of her— her dad was alive. And so reckoning that for, like, reconciling that for her, you know, feeling like I have a parent who's alive and I'm in an orphanage, right? Like, how do I reconcile that? How do I, like, the, the, like, hurt and anger that that fills you with? Um, so those were sort of some of the, the, um, things that, that really— and then that really prompted the book. And then, you know, also the last thing is I love a good mystery and I love a good comedy, right? Because it's a lot of humor in the book. Um, but, uh, I love a good mystery, and I had been— and right as I was like sort of thinking about these characters and stuff, I, I read this article about this small bar in Central California that was probably, you know, no bigger than 1,000 square feet. And a guy walked into it, and then he never walked out of it, and they never found his body. And there was only one exit, one entrance, and I had a camera on him. On both that was unbroken, and they never found out what happened to his body. They never found it. And so I was like, oh, this sort of like lockbox mystery mixed with these characters and, and, and this woman working through this like immense anger at this guy who you can never pin down. You can never pin him down and how frustrating that is. Um, that would be a fun story to tell.

Hmm. That's fascinating.

I hope so.

It is. It really is. That's great. Well, I really appreciate you doing this.

This was so fun. This is the, this is the most fun I've ever had on a podcast.

That's, that's our intention. Um, is there anything else we should talk about that we didn't talk about?

No, I think you hit it all.

Okay, well, thank you.

I mean, thank you guys. I could, I mean, literally I could talk to you for weeks, but this was so fun. I really like, I, I, I'm, I had such a great time. This is such an amazing format and you're so good at this. I'm curious.

It's like, your, your story is fascinating.

Oh, well, I'm, I'm, I'm glad.

Just, yeah, you're so smart. Like, it's, uh, it's really fun. We are so excited to announce the Books That Changed My Life website. We made a way for you to show your book pride and that you love books. Hats, tees, hoodies. Check it out, link in the description. Everybody needs a self-help hat.