Hayley Kiyoko on "The Four Agreements" || Books That Changed My Life

It was not your choice to speak English. You didn't choose your religion or your moral values. They were already there before you were born. We never had the opportunity to choose what to believe or what not to believe. We never chose even the smallest of these agreements. We didn't even choose our own name. I love that.

How did you feel the first time you read that?

Oh my God, my brain was like exploding.

Okay, the big question: how did The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz change your life? I mean, I'm Chris Collins and you're watching Books That Changed My Life. This week we're joined by singer, songwriter, and actress Hayley Kiyoko. She's here to talk about the book that changed her life, The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. So we're here to talk about The Four Agreements.

Yes.

By Don Miguel Ruiz, the book that changed your life. I'm curious what other books were in your mind when we asked you to pick one?

I did think about Rick Rubin's book, A Creative Act.

Oh, The Creative Act.

Yeah, Creative Act. I whizzed through it. I was devastated when I finished the book because I just wanted to keep reading. It made me feel so centered, but The Four Agreements was the OG for that, that feeling of just, you know, when you read and you just feel so centered and you feel comforted. Those are the feelings that this book has given me. And then also the Rick Rubin book. So I was toying between the two.

Yeah, nobody's done the Rick book.

They haven't?

Did you see my collage in the hall?

I mean, I saw a lot of collages.

I took that book and made a collage.

Oh, no, I haven't seen that. Because it's literally by my bedside.

It's named after a Marcel Duchamp lecture that he gave in Texas. And we have one of the largest collections of books on Duchamp.

Oh my gosh, really?

So there's kind of a tie there.

I'll have to check that out. Yeah, I loved the, just like when he called artists or being like a sensitive antenna. I really resonated with that because I feel like my sensitivity is my biggest strength and my biggest weakness. And, uh, gosh, so I'll have to come back and talk about that book next time. So this was the original of Rick Rubin for me.

So are you, are you kind of insinuating that you're an empath, like you feel things very deep?

Yeah.

And so then you have to have boundaries?

Yes.

How old were you when you figured out you had to have boundaries? Are you still figuring that?

I'm still figuring. I think the people-pleasing part of it is the thing I'm trying to, um, deconstruct right now. But I think in my 20s, when I found this book, it was the first time I realized that I was in control of my, my thoughts, my anxiety, the, the messages I was sending myself and to others. And this book helped me take accountability for what I can control. And I think in my 30s now, it's just been about boundaries of like who gets access to your energy and where you put your energy.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to figure out. Yeah. So you grew up here in LA?

Yeah.

What did your parents do?

My mom's an ice skating choreographer and my dad was a stand-up comedian.

What?

Yeah.

What was that house like?

Very chaotic.

How many siblings?

I have an older sister and a younger brother.

And so you're in the middle?

I'm the middle child. So a comedian, a stand-up comedian.

So is Dad kind of like wanting attention all the time?

Yeah, he loves— that's probably where I get my, like, enjoying attention is from my dad's side. He is so funny, loves to make people laugh and feel good. So like, that's what he leads with. And my dad was doing comedy, and then him and my mom would switch off. I'd have them like every 2 because they both were working so much. And then my mom is honestly a badass in the ice skating industry. She's like in the World Hall of Fame. She's in the Canadian Hall of Fame. She choreographed for Michelle Kwan, Scott Hamilton. She left high school at 17 and joined the Ice Capades and then became the director of the Ice Capades. So I grew up in a very artistic household. Like my childhood, instead of being at playgrounds, I was in an ice rink. And I was going through the costume designer's space and picking up scraps because they said we could pick up any scraps on the floor, and we'd have a collection of who could get the best fabrics and designs. And it was a lot of playtime and keeping ourselves busy because my mom was always working.

So did your parents stay together or—

They're still together.

Oh, that's so sweet.

I know, they're really cute.

Is she still doing it?

She's still doing it. She's in her 70s and she has over 20 shows on Royal Caribbean. So if you go on a cruise ship, 'cause ice skating's kind of like a dying art. It's starting to have a resurgence with like the previous Olympics. But ice, you know, people used to, ice skating, people used to pay a lot of money to just go see people skate. And it's just not around like that anymore.

Well, it would tour, right? The Ice Capades and all of that.

Yes, yeah. So it's been interesting to also be a daughter to watch my mom do a medium that's kind of not died, but definitely it's declined in the ability to express yourself in that medium.

Is there a lesson in watching skating kind of decline?

I think I grew up craving stability because my parents were both artists and freelance, and work would come and then work would go, and there were ups and downs. And I think watching my mom in a medium that is not as alive as it was when she started, it definitely is just a reminder that things are fleeting and to be present and to enjoy the, the moments of creativity as much as you can. It's funny, like when you tell your parents or people that you want to be an artist, so many times people go, you know, The greatest success is to continue to be an artist for as long as you can in the industry. And I never really understood that until I— 20 years in, it is so hard to continue to pay your bills and be able to support yourself as an artist and be in this industry and be able to have longevity. With the industry constantly evolving, you also have to evolve as well.

So do you ever like find yourself in a place where you're like, why did I do this? Like, I knew, I knew it was like this growing up and now I'm doing it.

I definitely have taken the harder path and my body and my mind are pretty tired. I just don't know any other version of myself that isn't trying to express herself and like communicate to her younger self. Like, I started writing music when I was like 8 or 9, young, because I didn't have anyone to speak to about how I felt. I didn't know how to process these emotions that I was feeling. I knew I was queer, I knew I was other, I was biracial growing up in a predominantly white community. And so creating art was my survival. I don't know any other worlds where I'm not trying to communicate with my younger self.

So it's like survival.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It would be like cutting off your oxygen.

I think so. I don't know any other version of me.

You want to be a lawyer?

I didn't want to be a lawyer, but I never like did anything about it. I also like dreamt of being like a surfer and like not just being able to like vibe out and chill and be centered and like be on the beach all the time, but I can't even pick up a surfboard, so Are you, do you think you're a workaholic? I think I am driven by proving to myself that I'm worthy. So therefore I work immensely hard. And when I do something, I wanna do it at the highest possible level because I think growing up, not knowing my future, not feeling hopeful for my future, not having access to representation, and the ability to really dream big for myself, I'm always raising the bar with everything that I do. So yes, I'm probably a workaholic.

And so that's a great thing. And then probably also a scary thing.

Yeah, burnout is real. I mean, I've been sprinting for 10 years to get this movie made. It hasn't been like, it's so interesting. I don't think people realize how hard it is to get a movie made. You're not just like sitting at home waiting for someone to read the script, waiting for someone to set up the meeting. You are out there trying to connect the dots, trying to find somebody to do a pitch. You're creating a pitch, you're rewriting the script, you're reimagining the script with the money that you're able to find. Like, you're just constantly on the run and on the go. And that's been— Girls Like Girls has been my life for like the past 10 years. So it was a song book and then song, music video, book and a movie, and now it's an album.

Yeah. So that's, that's a long time. Yeah, that's a lot of work.

Yeah, it's definitely not been the easiest road.

I mean, each one of them are completely different in so many ways, and then, yeah, similar too.

Yes, exactly. They're all very similar. They're like siblings, and they're all extremely different mediums.

They're not similar enough that it feels like it would be easy.

No, it's also never easy to do something you've never done before. I think you're— I think that, like, as opposed to being a workaholic, I think I crave trying new things. I like trying something I haven't done before and, and seeing or proving if, if I can do it and if that's within my wheelhouse.

Yeah, it's good. So take me to when this book came into your Life and something to do with a concussion.

Yeah, so my manager of a long time, Fab, gifted me this book in my 20s, like my early 20s. I was like, that's cute, I don't read. Just put it on my shelf. And then I got—

by the way, it's an easy read, totally.

But like, I just think, I don't know what I have, but I get overwhelmed by things. And so when I was younger, I would get overwhelmed with books. Like I would just be overwhelmed immediately before I even opened it. And I would read the last line of the book before even starting a book. So she gave me this book, and also too, it was like self-help, and I was in my 20s and I was like, do I need to read a self-help book? You know, in your 20s you think you're like already matured. And then I had a really bad concussion in 2016. So I released Girls Like Girls in 2015, okay? Then I had a really bad concussion and stroke in 2016, and I was going through immense health issues. I lost the ability to speak and process, and there were so many mental health and anxiety and all these things that came with it, with a TBI. And then I would say like a year— this probably sat on my shelf for like 2 years. And then finally I opened the book because I was in a dark place and was like, I need more support than just my therapist. And so I started reading this book and it just unlocked so many things. It is a simple book, but it's similar to music, right? You listen to a song and an artist is able to describe a feeling or experience that you've never been able to figure out the words for. That's what this book is. It's like, oh, thank you for putting how I feel into words that are digestible and understandable to me. And when I read this book, I was like, Oh my gosh, I have got to live my life with The Four Agreements. Like this, it changed everything for me.

So what did your manager see that he or she thought you needed this? What were they witnessing?

Probably just like needing to be able to navigate my anxiety better. I've, you know, I've been trying to climb this enormous mountain and to claim space for myself in this industry for so long. And when you're in this journey for so long, you're dealing with so many different personalities, so many egos, so many challenges, so many pivots. Um, I'm sure she was just seeing a lot of that and wanted to help me try to figure out a way to go through life a little easier.

Were you blaming The industry, or what were you expressing outwardly that they thought you needed this?

I don't know. You would have to ask her. I mean, I think I take things personally. Like, one of the agreements is to not take things personally. And I'm an empath. I'm highly emotional. I could cry on a drop of a dime. And I'm sure she was probably seeing me take this in. I, I take things personally. I, I put a lot of pressure on myself. I want to do things at the highest level. I have been trying to get into this industry for so long. I've always been kind of like this underdog, paving the way for others but not being able to pave it for myself. And there's a lot of intensity that comes with that.

Yeah. Have you given the book away?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they haven't read it, but I've given it away. Who have you given it to? I've given it to my best friend, I've given it to my brother, 'cause it just changed neuropaths in my brain of like, oh, you know, like one of the agreements is being impeccable with your word. And that's such a simple thing. It's like, oh yeah, duh. But it's like, no, words are a binding contract. And like to put weight behind, Everything that you say with intention. And that's like a rule that I follow and has helped me so much even as a director. You know, say what you mean and mean what you say. And think about the words that you're saying to somebody and mean them. You know, we can't control other people's emotions, and hurt people hurt people. And there's so many bullets that we're dodging and darts that are coming our way from other people's experiences.. But what I control is how I treat people, how I speak to people, how I speak to myself. If I make a mistake, taking accountability for that and just really using words as truth because that gets really messy. You know, people say things that they don't mean and then you go, well, why didn't you understand what I said? I actually meant this. And it's like, but you didn't say that, you said this. And so it causes a lot of confusion. And when you're in that industry, there's so much communication. There's so much team building, there's so much collaboration. And, you know, again, as a director, having a crew of 100 people, you have to be intentional with your words.

What is the energy you want to achieve on set when you're directing?

Look, you try as best as you can to create a safe space and to create a community of people that are working together for a bigger cause. You know, I think everyone who worked on Girls Like Girls, knowing it took 10 years for me to get this movie made, knew that this story was not about us. We were going— our talents are in service of this story, but this story is going to help so many other people see themselves in this film. And we had to work our butts off to make sure that this story existed at the highest level possible. And so my job as a director is to check in with the heads of departments, making sure they have what they need. Making sure they're collaborating with me and vice versa. We're communicating. Then they have 6 people under them. It's a lot of communication and it's chaos. Like my film, we had 23 days, and sometimes you have 10 minutes to get a very emotional scene from a young actor like Maya DaCosta, who was 18, and then you've got 30 people staring at her, and then you gotta move to the next location. And so there's, there's a lot of teamwork involved with that.

Okay, so The Four Agreements are the one you just mentioned, be impeccable with your word. The second one is don't take anything personally. The third one is don't make assumptions. And the fourth one is always do your best. Is, is one of those your favorite more than, than another?

I mean, I think being impeccable with your My word is number one. I think they go in order. Like, I also think not taking things personally. It's so easy to take things personally. And the reality is everyone is the main character of their own story. And it's hard to not take things personally, but really how people, like, when you're in a calm, loving state, you're gonna be calm and loving to someone else. And if you're in a frantic state, if you're stressed out of something, as you've gone in a car accident, you walk in, that's going to affect someone else's energy, but it has nothing to do with you. And so that was a really important lesson to learn, even though it's super simple, it's really hard to follow that rule. And then I love don't make assumptions. It really helps me with my communication skills. Don't assume someone means something else when they say this. Whatever they're saying, that's what they're saying. And if you're confused, ask. Like, hey, I don't want to assume. When you said this, is that what you meant? It helps every relationship dynamic— friends, chosen family, coworkers— and it helps take a huge burden off your back. Like going, oh my gosh, they said this, but do they really say this? And like, you know, you're carrying so much energy. So, and then always do your best. I think that one I think about the least because I think we all innately are trying to do our best even if we don't know the Four Agreements.

Really?

I feel—

I run into situations all the time.

You think people are just actively trying to like not do their best?

No, I think they're on automatic pilot and they're just passive. Like, I think in order to do your best, you have to have like a, a vision or some sort of goal or intention. And if it's just your job and you're just trying to get through the day, that might not be the best meal you've ever had or the best customer service. That's the thing.

I guess I feel like some people, their best is on a very different level. Like, I feel like some people, their best is not putting in effort. And that was the best that they could do. And like—

That's probably a better way to look at it.

Yeah, I think everyone is functioning on a different level, right? Like your best is probably different from someone else's best. And I've met people who think they're doing their best, but it's just, they're not even putting effort into it. And that is their best. And maybe that's, maybe they need to read this book.

Yeah. Or the analogy of the 4-minute mile. Nobody, thought you could run a 4-minute mile until somebody did it. And then a bunch of people did it because there was an example of it.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's my life. I feel like that's Girls Like Girls. It's like, if you don't, if seeing is believing, if you see someone do it, you go, oh wait, I can do that too. And especially in media, like when I think about being able to buy a ticket and see myself reflected on a big screen and seeing my love story reflected on a big screen, I never got to see that. So therefore, or I didn't have access to see that. And therefore I believed that I was never going to find love, that I didn't know how long I was gonna live on this earth. I didn't think that I could be a successful person in any medium because I would see so much backlash for so many people who were trying to live their authentic truth.

Yeah. What is that like to be kind of the one breaking through the glass a little bit in the sense that you are an example for other people to, you know, be inspired and think bigger and think more of themselves. What, what is that like for you? How does that feel?

It's lonely, it's hard, it's, it's, it's exhausting. But you also like have no choice. It's just kind of— for me, I've felt like I've always felt this something inside of me propelling me forward of trying to make change to hopefully make someone else's life easier than my life was in self-acceptance and love. But "Girls Like Girls" is a great example. Like, when I was getting this done, they were like, "No one's ever created a movie based off of the IP of a song." legally no one knew how to do that. So then you're figuring it out, you're knocking on doors, you're, you know, like my whole life has been unfortunately cracking that window and not knowing how to do it, but trying different tools, just continually trying.

How did you develop that skill set? Because that's a skill set a lot of people give up pretty easy.

Thanks.

Was it something when you were a kid or your mom maybe?

Good question. My mom's a problem solver. You know, I think as an ice skating choreographer, I guess as a young kid, I watched her choreograph 30 people and there's a lot of math and geometry to it. And, or you, an ice skater gets injured and you have to be quick on your feet. So I do think that I was surrounded by an example of having to think quick on your feet, having to pivot, um, and having to be creatively open. You can have a vision so strong, and yet you can't control everything. And the challenge is, how do you create the best version of the vision with the resources you're given and the time that you have?

Yeah, I think that's a rare thing. Like, a lot of people struggle with that because They want it to line up and it never lines up.

Thank you.

Yeah, you can't—

it's never— you're never ready too. Like, I remember when I finally got the green light and again, didn't know if I was gonna get a theatrical release. Didn't know. There were so many unknowns. And I remember it was like, well, I either say no or I go make this movie and I figure it out. And so I took the yes. And we figured it out, you know? And I think I'm proud of, it is scary. I'm not gonna act like the things that I've done have been remotely easy. And it's very uncomfortable. Like, I like get choked up thinking about it 'cause it's so scary to do something you've never done before. It's scary to put yourself out there in a vulnerable way. Like, I'm out here going, hey, my story matters. Therefore, millions of people will see themselves through my story. My story because we haven't had this story. Please believe in me. I promise they'll show up. That's terrifying because you don't know, you know, who will show up. But you do know that there are other people in this world that you haven't connected with yet that have had a similar experience as you. And you have to have this like blind faith in yourself that the thing that is the most important to you is also really important to other people.

Yeah, I think too, like, just going into the vulnerable part a little bit is like, people are so judgmental and people want to put things in a category. They want it to be simple, that sort of thing. For your story to resonate with others, you have to be vulnerable because those are the stories that resonate.

Yeah.

And so it's almost like a catch-22 is like You're putting yourself out there and then you're allowing other people to interpret or, you know, just dismiss it.

Your experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, um, yeah, that's torture.

Thank you. Welcome to my life.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, the—

probably the worst part is when it's done before it's come out.

Oh yeah, like month and a half, like is been, I've had anxiety attacks, I've been crying, I'm happy, I'm ups and downs. You know, it's when you're working, I, people go, what's it been like? And it's like, well, I don't recommend working on something for 10 years 'cause the amount of pressure that you put on yourself of like, was this worth it? Should I have spent 10 years on this? Is it gonna be good? Are people gonna, like, there's so many questions that come into your mind. Self-doubt, um, so many variables that you can't control. And, uh, it's, it's not easy, but I don't know any other way to move through life. The only version of life that I know is literally being pushed out of an airplane or jumping, because I think when you grow up knowing you're queer or knowing that you're other for so long of your life in your adolescence, survival is key. You're just, you know, you're human. You're picking up, okay, how do I survive? Do I fit in this box? Do I fit in this box? Could I fit in this box? And you're constantly having to edit yourself. And it takes a lot of courage to un-edit yourself and get back back to who you really were. And a lot of my life has been trying to shapeshift.

Yeah, constantly, right?

Constantly.

Yeah. What do you want people to take away from the movie? Like, what is the vision? Who are you targeting and what is it you want to do for them? How do you want them to change?

I hope that when people watch this movie, it touches points of their heart that they've maybe left behind or abandoned, that they feel these little parts to go, ooh, I remember that time that I confronted that person and they rejected me, or I confronted that person and they welcomed me with open arms. And being able to embrace and love and hold those parts of ourselves, like, we all have dealt with feelings of love and feelings of rejection and the fear of confronting somebody and actually communicating how you truly feel. It is terrifying to do that. And that's what this movie follows is these two young girls. And even though this movie is called Girls Like Girls, every single person has had to have that hard conversation with somebody. And I really hope that it helps heal parts of ourselves. I hope it helps people see see themselves in a new light, with more compassion, with more love. Even just in this political climate, having a theater filled with people supporting a film called Girls Like Girls, it sends a signal to the world, "Hey, you're gonna be okay. We love you for who you are. Your existence matters to us." It's a huge message, and I think that is the message that I was lacking for so long in my life and has been like the, um, the beating pulse of becoming a musician, the movie not working out, writing the book, then the book leading to the movie. And the movie has songs from when I was 16, and then the movie leading me back to music where it all began in my bedroom playing the guitar and trying to, to comfort myself.

So a big part of it is love and community.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we need, we need that.

It's—

there's so much hate and isolation in this world, and it's really sad that it takes 10 years to have an underrepresented story being told. And I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that We're having a theatrical release, that we're being supported in a big way. This is a big moment for my community and for everyone to just show kindness to one another and to inspire adults to parent their kids with unconditional love and being like, "Hey, we love you for who you are. Let's have an open dialogue. We're here for you." It's— it could affect everything.

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage to create the thing you wish existed. And yeah, because nobody else has done it, right? So you—

Yeah, I have no idea. There's no blueprint. You have no idea how to do it.

But you want it to exist. Yeah.

And for me, I've just been in my apartment like, I want it to exist. I know it should exist. How do you make it exist? How do you convince people that you are the one to do it, that you can do it, you can execute it well? And that's been my journey for 10 years, is creating that road, building that road and figuring it out.

Well, when it goes really, really well—

Thanks.

How are you going to feel 6 months from now? Are you going to celebrate it? Will you allow yourself to celebrate it?

It's been so funny because like, I was always like, once this movie is made, I'm going to be content and happy. And I think— You're shaking your head.

Never works.

It never works. I'm so proud of this film and I'm so proud of myself for never giving up. And also, it feels like just the beginning. Like, I want to direct more. I want to create more hopeful queer stories. In TV and write more books. Like, there's so many things that I've wanted to do, but the first is always the hardest. The first— you can't have a second without a first. And I've been fixated on making this happen for the community. I found a video of my 15-year-old self singing this melody that I actually wrote and complete for the film. And it's— It's like, it's like Inception. It's so weird to watch this video of like my 15-year-old self, my voice shaking, being in the closet, singing at this talent show, to now having that song in my directorial debut, starring another half-Asian 18-year-old discovering who she is, navigating that and sharing that with the world. It is, um, It's a very out-of-body experience, but I hope I'm allowed— I allow myself to celebrate because I should. You could, uh, you could make an appointment, get some rainbow flags and just like, you know—

No, I don't even think it's rainbow flags, it's just you.

Thank you. I'm making an appointment for myself. Is that what you said?

It helps sometimes because what happens is like, yeah, you set these goals, I know, and it always moves. It comes out, you get you get all this positive feedback, but the positive feedback doesn't really resonate in the way because it's other people's, right? Take, and you got to allow them to have it, right?

So everyone has an opinion.

When you write a song or put out a movie or a book, other people impose their context on it.

Totally.

And it's great, you're touching them and you've, you've helped them in it, but it doesn't really— you're still you're still, you know, who you are in a sense.

So thanks.

Yeah, make an appointment to kind of be like, hey, I'm gonna take a trip or do something for a couple weeks and just bless out. Yeah, enjoy it.

Thank you. I, I—

otherwise you'll just be on to the next thing.

Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, and life moves fast.

Surround yourself for like a couple weeks with something that like inspires you, or yeah, you know, you treat yourself or something. Okay, you want to— you want to get into the book?

Yeah, let's do it.

So you kind of, uh, previewed our highlights a little bit.

Uh, was I not— I thought that's what you gave it to me.

No, but I liked the—

oh, okay, sorry.

But you, you, uh, I am typing the highlights.

Yeah, I did.

We did it. We did okay.

I, I think like I highlighted almost Every single one.

So just to kind of recap, so the first agreement is, uh, be impeccable with your word.

Yeah.

And then if you'll read this part on page 4.

Yes. It was not your choice to speak English. You didn't choose your religion or your moral values. They were already there before you were born. We never had the opportunity to choose what to believe or what not to believe. We never chose even the smallest of these agreements. We didn't even choose our own name. I love that.

How did you feel the first time you read that?

Oh my God, my brain was like exploding. We are born in a society where we are fed a narrative. So many choices are made for us, and so many of us go on a journey of unlearning and choosing our own path. And by doing that, especially people in my community, choosing their own path means getting isolated or abandoned by their family who wanted to make those decisions for them. We deserve to have autonomy as a human. We deserve to have our own thoughts, our own feelings, We deserve to be able to choose how we want to live life. And I remember reading that paragraph and I was like, oh my gosh, everybody needs to read this book.

Yeah, we're very mimetic. Like, we're just copying and we're trying to fit in. We're trying to get approval. But that in the end can make it that you're living somebody else's life.

Literally. I think probably 70, 65% of the world is probably living somebody else's life. And it's the people who choose to have their own life who are met with challenges and, um, broken relationships and having to navigate the reality of someone saying I love you but not really loving them in the way that they deserve.

Yeah, the first time I kind of like had a situation when I was a kid, I was pretty young, is I had, uh, these two brothers that I would play with and they were a different religion. And my parents told me that they were going to go to hell because they weren't Christians. And I just remember crying and being so upset that my friends were going to go to hell.

And your heart was like, I just want to be friends with these people.

Yeah.

And someone's telling you that you can't.

And then I was like, well, wait, how do we know that they— what if we're going to hell in their life?

Yeah, yeah. How do we know that we're on the right side?

Like, you know, God doesn't— you don't meet got. Like, yeah, it's all based on assumptions.

Don't make assumptions. Yeah, it was back to one of the agreements. Oh my gosh, that makes me sad.

Oh, I was so— yeah, I was so upset. But it was good because it made me— it made me question authority at a pretty young age.

Yes, it— yeah.

And I was kind of like, I don't know about all this, right? Okay, I think this one's really good. So on page 14, if you consider hell as a state of mind then hell is all around us. Others may warn us that if we don't do what they say we should do, we will go to hell. Bad news, we're already in hell, including the people who tell us that.

Yeah, I mean, just look at the world right now, right? It's just divide. And, um, I love the line, others may warn us that if we don't do what they say we should do, it's like so fear-based. It's like, hey, if you're not who I say you are, then you're in trouble. And so many people live with that rhetoric and have to, if they're brave enough and courageous enough, challenge that.

I think, too, for artists— and tell me if this resonates with you— the worst version of living in hell is living somebody else's life and not being able to create.

Exactly. I agree.

Like, one of the things you've kind of expressed so far is you like new experiences. You like to challenge yourself. You're jump— you even said, like, jumping out of the plane. Like, if, if you were living what other people expected you to do, I would be so miserable. That's how—

and I probably wouldn't be here, honestly.

Yeah, I feel the same way about that. Then on page 17, This is why humans resist life. To be alive is the biggest fear humans have. Death is not the biggest fear we have. Our biggest fear is taking the risk to be alive, the risk to be alive and express what we really are. So breaking away from the herd. Yeah, in that way.

I love that. I love that as well. Like, our biggest fear is taking the risk to be alive. So scary for so many people to live their life. It's simple as that. Go live your life. Live the life that you want. It's terrifying for people. And when you don't have an example of that, right? You see people miserable living someone else's life or not breaking that cycle. Um, it's really hard to imagine that you can, that it's possible, which goes back to representation all over again.

Yeah. One of my, one of my favorite, like, thoughts is that the fear of success is worse than the fear of failure. I think fear of success hurts more people than the fear of failure because people one, they don't understand what success is or what it looks like. They don't have an example. Like, for just, you know, off the cuff, people that grew up in homes where the parents always argued, they don't really have an example of a healthy relationship where two people are rooting for each other and accept each other the way they are. And so they don't know what success is, right?

Oh, I was just going to add to that. Like, in, like, in queer media, I was only shown the trauma. I was only shown the challenges and the obstacles. So I didn't know what success looked like. I didn't know what a happy ending looked like. I'm engaged. I never even imagined what a wedding would be like because it wasn't even legalized at that time.

So, yeah, that's a great example.

Yeah. The first agreement is be impeccable with your word and then go to 38. Gossiping has become the main form of communication in human society. It has become the way we feel close to each other because because it makes us feel better to see someone else feel as badly as we do.

That's rough.

Imagine reading this in your 20s and you're like, oh my gosh. And it's really sad to believe that that's true, but it is true. And it's really beautiful when you get to meet people who are genuinely happy for someone else's success and to know that someone else's success and happiness doesn't threaten yours, doesn't take anything away from who you are. And I think a lot of people— I think about the hate in this world, you know. The trans community are a beautiful community. They are— they just want to live and be happy and be who they are and be safe to do so. Their happiness doesn't take away from any heteronormative happiness.

Have you had to, uh, move away from friends that weren't really celebrating your success as you kind of grew up?

I don't think it was like celebrating success, but I think as I've gotten older, I crave people who make me feel seen. And the people who make me feel the most seen understand how hard I work, how hard it is to do what I do, how I put everything I have into what I do. And for them to see that and acknowledge that makes me feel loved.

You know what's funny is I thought you said sane, not seen. And I was like, you're not sane.

I didn't say I was sane. I didn't say I was okay, Chris.

That makes more sense.

I'm not okay.

Then page 48. The question is, how did this idea change you? Nothing other people do is because of you. It is because of themselves. All people live in their own dream, in their own mind. They are in a completely different world from the one we live in. When we take something personally, we make the assumption that they know what is in our world, and we try to impose our world on their world.

Yeah, I love that. I think, again, it's like, oh, my world is different from your world and how you're carrying yourself. Is through the lens of you. And also, I can't make an assumption that you also understand my world unless we're having a conversation about that.

It also kind of forces you to try to see it from other people's point of view, not just your own.

Yeah, like, hey, maybe this person is hurting people because they're hurt. They're feeling scared. They're feeling maybe worried about stability or whatever they're dealing with. And maybe their actions have nothing to do with that. But it's hard. It's hard in the moment. It really is.

Yeah. I think you intuitively get this though, because when you were describing, like, you have 10 minutes to get this shot and an actress that's got 20 people watching, like, just like, and you're like, go.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's why I think kindness is so important to to, um, lead with because all of our energies intertwine with one another. And I mean, even sitting down here with you, like, your energy is like, oh, I feel safe. I feel safe to be myself. I'm gonna have a good day, you know? Like, everyone's— the way everyone carries themselves in the world affects other people.

Well, especially when you're an empath, you can read that.

Yeah, I feel it all.

Yeah, yeah. So if it's not Yeah, good. Yeah, it's gonna make— yeah, it's gonna make you feel very unsafe very quick.

Yeah, well, it goes back to like the Rick Rubin book of just having a sensitive antenna. Like, I can feel it all, and it— and I have to remember that I don't have to take everything on.

Yeah, that's good. That's hard to do.

It's so hard. And, and when you're a director, you know, people are having mental breakdowns, they're quitting, they're rejoining, they're feeling stressed, the AC is broken. Like, there's so many elements and you can't take things personally. You have to go, hey, we're here to, to do something for the community. It's bigger than us. We need to collect our thoughts and get it together and make this happen because we have a young star needing our support.

Yeah, that's great. Okay, 68.

Uh, we make all sorts of assumptions because we don't have the courage to ask questions. These assumptions are made so fast and unconsciously most of the time because we have agreements to communicate this way. We have agreed that it is not safe to ask questions. We have agreed that if people love us, they should know what we want or how we feel. When we believe something, we assume we are right about it to the point that we will destroy relationships in order to defend our position. The most attractive trait in the world to me is accountability. It is so hard for people to take accountability. It's scary, but it's so important. So many people will destroy relationships to prove that they are not wrong. And I think that that can harm a lot of people. You know, I think about even just my community and people who aren't accepting of their own children. It's like they're so afraid to be wrong. Just be like, hey, I didn't react the way I was supposed to. I want to learn more about you and your community, and I want to, I want to show up for you, and I'm sorry that I didn't. That so hard for people to say.

Yeah. And that, to you, that's accountability?

I mean, I think accountability can come in many ways, but I do think taking accountability of like, hey, this is how I acted and I hurt you.

Yeah, it's important. Like, there's kind of two themes you keep coming back to is communication and accountability.

Yeah.

And that they, they're kind of one and the same in some senses.

How— what, what does accountability look like to you? How does that feel for you?

There's this doctor in the, in the '50s and '60s that researched personalities, and he was just trying to figure out different traits that made people successful and happy versus unsuccessful and not happy. And was there a correlation, right? Like, could you be happy and successful? Like, do they go hand in hand? And he, he found one thing in our personalities which he titled locus of control. Where do you locate control? And people that were unhappy and were prone to depression and underperforming in life, low status, would externalize control to outside forces. So they would blame God, they would blame the government, they would blame their childhood. They would blame the circumstance. And people that had an internal locus of control would blame themselves, and they would focus on what they could control. And they, they did all these studies on high school kids, and the kids that were like, hey, I want to go to college, or I want to go to this specific college, or I want to play football, whatever goal they had that came with a very strong intention, forced them to develop an internal locus of control where they were going to figure it out no matter what. There was a drive, an intention. People that externalized control and didn't take responsibility for their actions or accountability most of the time had some sort of learned helplessness where they just didn't believe it mattered if they tried or anything would change.

They stay the same. They stay— it's like stagnant energy. And that's why I love people who do take accountability. We are human beings, we are not perfect, but accountability is the ability to move forward and not to not stay stagnant. And so many people are just stuck because they're just so afraid of being wrong or misguided or whatever it is, and they blame everyone before they look at themselves.

Yeah, and it's interesting when you start to focus on the things you can control, that ends up just being your perception of everything. Like, of course there's things you can't control, right? But for the most part, you control— if you want, you control a lot of what happens in your life.

You control how you carry yourself and how you pivot. Like, it goes back to this fricking movie decade-long journey. It's like there's only, only so many things I can do to convince people and to pitch this story and the importance of it. I don't have control. But what I did have control of is let me go write a book instead and release that because that's something I can control. That's something that I can control.

Yes. That's a great example of that.

You know, and maybe it'll lead to the movie. But what I can control is I can get it done. I can create it and—

Make it good.

Make it good. And maybe people will find it.

Mm-hmm.

And that's always been my brain. It's like I try to focus on the things that I can control, which has led to my millions of degrees of pivots in my life because I can't control releasing a song, not knowing if it's gonna connect to people. I can't control being able to find a studio to finance a film. I like all these things. I can put in the effort and the work, but at a certain point, sometimes you just have to make it.

Yeah.

And however you— in whichever way you can.

And if you just think of that in, on like a global scale, if you wanted to control a society, you would want learned helplessness and low self-esteem. So you'd want people confused. You'd want them to feel like if they did something, your vote doesn't matter. Fearful, can't change it.

Yeah, they're living in this, this state of, of fear and victim mentality.

And then learned helplessness takes over and you do what you're told, blame it on everyone else but yourself. Yep, it's the other, it's the other party's fault.

Yeah.

Oh yeah. So, okay, so this one is great too, and kind of back to what I was saying about intention. Like, you had an intention, and that intention inadvertently makes you take responsibility because otherwise you won't get anywhere if you don't. Right?

Because you have to do something about it.

So action is about living fully. Inaction is the way that we deny life. Inaction is sitting in front of the television every day for years because you're afraid to be alive and to take risk of expressing what you are. And I would contend that inaction is a decision as much as action. Being passive and standing around and watching things happen is a decision as much as getting involved or taking action or standing up for what you believe in.

Yeah, it's your choice. Uh, at the end of the movie, they— the, the line is just like it— the conversation and beat is just kind of like, you have a choice. To either live your authentic truth or not. And you choose whether that's tomorrow or 50 years or never. But it's up to you. No one is forcing you. You are in control of your destiny. It's such a basic thought, but it's, it's so hard for people to recognize the power that we have within ourselves.

You know what I love about that though, is that that's kind of like how you live your life.

Thanks.

You are the story you're telling.

I try.

It's not the tree, or what is it, the fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree.

The angel of death can teach us to live every day as if it is the last day of our lives, as if there may be no tomorrow. We can begin each day by saying, I am awake. I see the sun. I'm going to give my gratitude to the sun and to everything and to everyone because I am still alive. One more day to be myself. I love this book so much. So good. It's so good.

I know. It's funny when you're like, oh, it's self-help. And then it's just so good.

It's just so good.

Good.

And it's digestible, especially like if you haven't gone to therapy or you're like trying to find a way to, I don't know, work on your emotional intelligence and connection to yourself. Like, this is such a good place to start. I feel like this book really, really helps break things down in a very simple way. We have one life to live. We aren't guaranteed tomorrow. What are you going to do about it?

Yeah. And it's a 2-cup-of-coffee book. It's super easy. Okay, the big question: how did The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz change your life?

I mean, everything that we talked about, it changed. I think it changed the relationship I have with myself, and that's what changed my life. It allowed myself to have control of my body and my mind and my heart, to make choices for myself, to take accountability for my choices. And anytime I feel lost or depressed or confused, especially during this 10-year journey of like, what am I doing? Like, am I crazy? Like, what What's the point of all of this? I'd go back to this book and it just would recenter me and remind me that I am in control of my destiny.

That's great. How many times have you read it?

Probably like 6 times. But I have it also on my book. So I just like, anytime I'm like, I can't breathe, I like read the book and it immediately calms me down because it reminds me to kind of think outside of my body and that I'm in control of my thoughts.

Is there one section you go to more than others?

I have like, I, my, my, I should have brought it, but my book at home, I have like a bunch of stuff highlighted that I go back to and I just kind of read and remind myself, you know, or if you have an interaction, it's like, hey, like they are in their own reality and you are in yours and all you can do is do your best and and speak impeccably and to not take things personally and to not make assumptions and, you know, lead with kindness. And hopefully we can make the world a better place, have a little more queer joy in our lives. Love, love.

I would say like, we need a John Lennon right now. Yeah, we don't have a John Lennon.

No, we do need that.

We gotta let love rule.

We do need to let love rule. And I think even writing this movie and making a hopeful queer film, I realized how hard it is to make a story hopeful because it's so easy to focus on the trauma and the hurt, and it's harder to figure out a way to, to see the hope in things that you've never seen before. Yeah.

Okay, so now talking about Girls Like Girls— song, music video, book, now movie— what is your process for writing? Do you have like a specific place, a ritual? How do you, how do you do it?

I mean, there were so many different iterations of writing, like, you know, writing the song in 2015 and then writing the book. My ritual, I don't really have like an OCD ritual or anything. I write in my office. I like silence. I need silence.

'Cause I need to be able to— So no music, no TV, nothing.

I get very distracted. I cannot have like a conversation close to me. So I can't go to a cafe. Like I have to be in, absolute silence so I can hear my thoughts and speak to myself fully. And then I normally do like long periods of writing. I can't, like, I'm very, like, when I'm doing something, I have to do that. I can't do anything else. I can't multitask in my different mediums. Like, I can't be on tour writing, or I can't be writing and then doing a music meeting. Like, it has to be writing, and that's it.

So you lock the door?

I lock the door and write.

And then how long will you go? Like, if you really hit a vein, what's the longest you've written for?

I mean, I would say like 6 hours is normally— I like— I love a 12 to 6 situation.

So what happens in the morning before the 12?

I mean, if I'm being a good person to myself, I'm like having breakfast and I'm going for a walk. But normally I'll probably be having meetings and like, um, does that kind of take you out of it? It does. I like have to like block off my calendar. I'm like, I'm like, Hailee is writing, and I have to block off like weeks because I can't— like, even when I was finishing the movie, I couldn't like go into the studio and write a song. Like, it was really hard for me to take the different caps off. I'm very all or nothing, which is again a blessing and hard at the same time. I have a really hard time turning on and off for that.

So you have to manage it.

Yeah, I also get away, go to Airbnb, get like physically, physically being away from LA helps because I feel like when I'm in LA, I'm accessible. Like meaning like work, like people can find me to ask me questions. 'Cause I'm, I'm running, you know, it's a business, you're running it, you're having to micromanage communication, even the marketing with the film and all these things. Like, um, there's a lot going on, so I— it is hard for me to carve out time to actually be creative.

So when you're locked in the room quiet, you're just writing? Coffee, tea, matcha, green tea?

Yeah.

And then when you— when you kind of push up against something, do you go for a walk, or do you just sit there and Like, is—

I stop.

You stop and then you're done for the day?

Sometimes.

Really?

Yeah.

You just know?

Sometimes, yeah. I think it's hard. I used to push through writer's block. I used to force myself, and sometimes you can, but I feel like a break, even if it's like 15 minutes, is better, and that you can come back to it Um, yeah, I normally—

are there any, uh, like books that you read or any art that you have around that feeds your inspiration?

I love Claude Monet. Yeah, I love his paintings.

What does that do?

I don't know him personally. No, I don't think anybody does.

He's been dead a while.

Yeah. Um, I, I'm inspired by colors.

Mm.

Yeah.

Do you feel colors?

Yeah. So like when I write music, like Girls Like Girls, the whole universe is orange. So when you listen to the album, every single song is orange and they're all different genres. Like we have pop, we have Americana. But the reason why they all work together is because they sound like orange. Wow. So I'm very inspired by color. So when I feel, I'm very visual, so I need visual inspiration. I love nature. Um, I love different color palettes, seeing like a really beautiful purple with like a blood orange. Like, yeah.

What does purple mean?

I feel very calm.

Purple is calming?

Yeah. Yes.

What colors, uh, aren't calming or uncomfortable?

Um, like a sharp magenta I don't like. At all.

So like almost a hot pink?

No, uh, kind of like in between. Yeah, like a really sharp— I like really soft tones. Like anything I do, it's like soft, it's not sharp. Like it's got to be soft tones.

Did you pick this color?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I— everything you see that I release, I've, I've— you're designing it? Yeah, or we're redesigning it. Um, I work closely with Sammy who works with me on this. I want the hardcover of this. I'll get you a hardcover. The hardcover epic. This is awesome too, but hardcovers are just like the best. But yeah, color's always been my inspiration. And like, even my first album, I'd look at different like Claude Monet paintings and be like, okay, I want this song to feel like this, or I want the song to feel like this color.

Um, and it's driven by color.

Yeah, I mean, if you watch the movie, you'll feel that. I want people to feel feel safe when they're watching my films. And color dictates how people feel and how they react. And it was really important for me to create a warmth of warm tones. Even like a cool exterior, it's still warm. It's still like a warm blue. It's not a harsh blue. Um, and I think, I think you'll realize why I love color so much when you watch the home too.

Does that carry through the clothes and everything in the design? Yeah, it's all intentional.

Yeah, everything was micromanaged to a T. Yeah, I don't— I didn't have— I didn't have, um, too much control on like, like buildings and specific locations because we were on location that we didn't have any set building. My dream is to be able to actually build things from scratch, so you are having to kind of pivot and find ways to bring the film back into the world, you know, having blue, you know, yellows and warm oranges. And I rarely have red in the film. Red is like a very specific moment in the film, and it's danger. It's always during the heightened times of the scene because red to me is an alarming color. And so my whole career has always been dictated by color.

Have you read any of the Albert's Interaction of Color stuff?

No, I need to.

Oh, I'll get that for you.

Thank you. I would love to. I've always just been kind of in my own world, and I am excited to not have to be anymore because this movie exists now. So now maybe I can go live. Maybe I can go read some more books and live a little.

You'll land on something else here pretty soon. You'll be writing something else.

I do need to find some new inspiration. So I'd love to read that.

How does music play into that in the movie? How intentional were you with that?

Again, it's similar to the many pivots we've spoken about. When I finished the film, I didn't have resources to financially get a lot of like the needle drops that I wanted from— this film is set in 2006, so like a lot of these songs that I was hoping to receive. And I remember like crying in my hotel room, being frustrated. And I just out of curiosity went, I was like, I have to do everything myself. So I go through, I look at these old songs that I had started. One song I wrote when I was like 12 or started writing when I was 12, and another song when I was 16 that I had never released, didn't complete. And I was like, maybe I just put those in the movie. And so now those songs are in the film, "Notice," "Lungs," and then the third song that's in the film called "Falling Through," I ended up writing that song off of— there's a sample that goes, "You, you," and it's actually my voice when I was 16 from a demo. And we wrote a new song off of my voice.

Using that as a sample?

Yes. Yeah. So it was like, again, I wasn't able to get these things and I had no control and I couldn't control the situation because of the limited resources. So then I just luckily am a musician, so I did the music myself.

I would bet $100 that, like, I don't know, let's say that AC/DC Back in Black was the song you wanted in the movie, just for an abstract example. If you put that in now, you would probably be like, oh, like, it's like off limits. Like, almost like it's not a— it's not a part of the overall energy.

Yeah, and I think that's what's been really unique about my journey is all of these forced decisions that I've had to make.

Actually make it better in the end.

Yeah, like, it's so cool that now my voice gets to narrate and support these two young women's performances. And it's almost like haunting when you think about it. It's like the ghosts of Hailee's past narrating this journey. And resilience and determination to freaking make this the best. I wasn't gonna put library music in this film. Like, are you kidding? So—

Have you watched the documentary Sofia Coppola did with Marc Jacobs?

No, but I heard it was amazing.

You remind me so much of her.

Oh, thank you. She's very talented.

But same sort of thing, like has a vision and then the clothes, like, You've got to go for it. It's a great documentary.

Yeah, I'll have to watch that.

They're both, I mean, you know. Yeah, crazy. I mean, talks about Duchamp in there too.

Really?

Well, when he took over Louis Vuitton. Yeah, he, he was like my inspiration. Because what do you do with this?

Yeah, yeah, logo.

And they were asking him to make clothes. And so he was like, I was going to do— I was going to, you know, Duchamp it basically. And then he tells a funny story in there. I won't ruin it, but it's pretty cool.

That's amazing. I'd love to see that. Yeah, I think we're all—

She an inspiration?

Yeah. I mean, I remember watching The Virgin Suicides and finding out after the fact that it was directed by a woman, and I'll never forget that. And I was just like, oh my gosh, that's rare.

My favorite movie of all time is Lost in Translation.

Oh yeah, it's fantastic.

I just put that movie on in the background.

Yeah, it's so good.

The tempo, the look. Oh, it's so good.

It's just world building. I let, you know, I love like Guillermo del Toro. I love directors that create worlds and spaces and have different perspectives. And, you know, you think about like stats, there's only 5% of women of color directing films. It's 2026. So of course not many perspectives are being shared because they're being shared by very similar people and very similar perspectives. So even before I even started this journey, there was a massive mountain before I even started climbing. So I feel very honored to be a part of that club and people like Sophia and Chloé Zhao paving the way and proving, you know, I remember seeing Chloé, I was like, seeing someone who looks like me win an Oscar as a director, how cool is that? Oh my gosh, maybe one day I'll be up there. It's a ripple effect.

Yeah, it really is. Well, now you're going to have that effect on others and inspire them. I can't wait to see the movie.

Thank you. I can't wait for you to see it too. I'm so excited.

I'll be paying attention to colors.

Pay attention to colors.

I love that. Thank you for coming.

Thank you.

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