JORDY on "I Let You Go" || Books That Changed My Life
In this interview, singer‑songwriter Jordy discusses how Claire McIntosh’s thriller I Let You Go reshaped his relationship with reading and mental health, recounts the spontaneous online connection with the author that led to a personal exchange of early manuscript material, and reflects on the book’s themes of manipulation and trauma. Jordy explains how the novel’s intense plot twists reignited his reading habit—now two books a week—and how that habit fuels his songwriting, citing the book as a muse for his upcoming fourth album In Retrospect. He analyses the novel’s ambiguous ending, sharing both his own interpretation and the author’s clarification that the antagonist Ian is dead, linking the symbolism to lingering trauma. Jordy then details the two‑year creation process of In Retrospect, describing the emotional roller‑coaster of releasing music, the album’s thematic focus on anger, validation, self‑discovery, and acceptance, and the collaborative visual work with friend Dante and creative director Thomas J. Throughout, he emphasizes his mission to use literature and music to combat the literacy crisis, reduce loneliness, and help listeners feel seen and validated.
Chapters
Guys, on this next page, if you've read this book, you, you know, you know how I have chills thinking about it still. When I first read this and I finished part 1 and I was freaking out, like freaking out in my apartment, I went online, immediately posted a video just being like, read this, read this damn book. If you're into thrillers, psychological suspense, this is the best. The author Claire McIntosh saw the video. She sent me the very first work of her new book that came out this year. She wrote me a note: Dear Jordy, as promised, I hope it makes your jaw drop at least once. Love, Claire.
Okay, big question.
Sure.
How did I Let You Go by Claire McIntosh change your life? I Let You Go changed my life because I'm Chris Collins and you're watching Books That Changed My Life. This week we're joined by singer-songwriter and fellow book lover Jordy. We had a great time listening to his new album, In Retrospect, on our hi-fi setup here. I highly recommend the album. He'd done an incredible job here. My favorite song is Stop Texting My Friends, but the entire album is great. I recommend getting it on vinyl too, but download it. And then after that, we talked about the book that changed his life, I Let You Go by Claire McIntosh. It's a great mystery with a killer twist. So strap in and enjoy the conversation. You're just in the business of making the world shake their ass.
I mean, I try my best.
That's— that you should have a business card that just says that.
Professional shaker or— Yeah, creator of shaking movement. You're creating movement. Yeah.
And happiness.
I try. I try.
So when we asked you to pick a book that had changed your life, you picked I Let You Go by Claire Mackintosh. Yes. I am curious what other books were on that list.
Of books that changed my life?
Yeah.
I was choosing between a couple of books. I was choosing between a book called The Correspondent, which came out last year, that is written in epistolary format where it's is that the right word, where it's written in letters, but it centers around a woman in her 70s named Sybil, and you just learn about her life through her correspondences via letters and emails and stuff. And that was a really beautiful book that I loved so much. But I will say, like, when I got the opportunity to come onto this podcast, I was like, okay, what book can I choose that will make me seem super smart and, like, well-read?
Don't do that.
And I hit a point where I was like, I wanna talk about a thriller because thrillers and true crime and mysteries is, like, what got me back into reading, and I just owe a lot to the genre. And I think that there are a lot of aspects to reading that genre that make a lot of sense for me, and it's what I'm, like, primarily reading. And this book in particular floored me in such a way, I love recommending it to people.
So why the love of thrillers? So— Thank you.
So in 2023, at the end of 2023, I was going through just, like, a hard time. It was a rough patch for sure. And I grew up reading books. Like, I loved reading as a kid. But it always was this, like, bring a book on vacation kind of thing, read for school, obviously. And I did always read on, like, a trip, like a family gathering, whatever. Always reading a book. My mom was a huge— is a huge reader. And so I was— I grew up around books, but I lost, like, I lost sight of it when I went to college, and I just got busy with class and with music, and it— I stopped reading. Like, I really did. And at the end of 2023, I was just going through a rough time, and I was like, I'm just gonna go to, like, a bookstore and just, like, pick something out and see you know, if it gets me out of this funk. And I went and I picked up a book, and it was really fun. And I was like, okay, was it a thriller? It was a thriller.
So you went to that section?
I did, I did. I— a lot of people were telling me to read it. It's called Verity. It's, um, it's kind of like a— it's, it's by Colleen Hoover. It's, it's like a classic rite of passage, like beginner thriller, I feel like. But I owe that book a lot because it just got me into, like, the act of reading again. And, um, I just kept buying thrillers. I was like, I'm addicted to this, this is so much fun. I was never even like a huge thriller show or movie watcher. I, for some reason, like, I read a book called The Silent Patient that was like mind-blowing. I read a book called like The Housemaid that was like one of the first books I like also read that got me into the genre. And, um, I just kept digging deeper and deeper and found authors that I liked. And I kept seeing recommendations for this book online kind of getting in the throes of thriller book talk videos and stuff. And everyone was like, "You have to read I Let You Go. It's the best twist. Like, your mind's gonna be completely blown." And so I was like, "All right." Now, it can't really be a thriller without a twist. I think you need a twist.
Yeah.
I think otherwise it's just like— would it maybe be considered, like, a suspense or, like, an action suspense? I don't know. Like—
There still has to be a twist coming out of it.
There needs to be a twist, I think. I was thinking about this this morning because I've written a lot of songs about being emotionally manipulated, unconsensually. These are the only moments where I consent to being emotionally manipulated.
You're paying for it.
I'm paying to be—
You're invested.
Yes, I'm so invested. And so I think that is like, you know, when you read so many thrillers, you know what to look for. And at this point, I had been reading regularly for, like, a year. And I was like, I had so many theories. I was like, "I know what to look for. I know what to expect." And I did not. I did not. I also have been thinking a lot about how I am someone who has always craved clarity in my life. And I think in my job, like, as a musician, It's very up and down, and I don't know what the future holds. And I write music, and I put out records, and I tour, and you never know what's gonna hit and what's gonna work and how much money you're gonna make or, you know, whatever it may be. And I think that there is something to a thriller where it feels like such a mess that I have felt in my life. I have felt like such a mess, and I just crave that satisfying clarification that in life, you don't always get. And I think it's been cool because reading thrillers, it's like you're in the mess and you feel so lost in it. And when done really well, you kind of arrive at the other side and you feel this sense of satisfaction and clarity. And I think that that's really cool.
Although one kind of pain in the ass thing about this book—
Tell me.
—is there's no closure.
There is a little bit of a cliffhanger at the end. Yeah. But I have theories about that. I hate that. You don't like a cliffhanger?
I like it closed up.
I see. I, I think, I think that there is a way to interpret the very, very end in a way that is closed, but I obviously understand where you're coming from.
Let's, uh, can't wait to talk about that. Great. I can't wait to hear what you, what you think, because it's pretty good. Good. It's a good, it's well done.
Oh, it's, it's so good. Very well done. I love it.
So, um, tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
I grew up outside of Chicago. Oh, I'm a Midwest boy. Um, what did your parents do? So my dad was a, uh, he built homes, so he was a builder when I was a kid. Contractor. He owned a company called North Star Homes, and he would build homes basically on the North Shore of Chicago. Um, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. She raised me and my two siblings. I'm a middle child. I have an older brother and a younger sister. Um, but then in 2008 when the stock market crashed, like nobody was really buying homes. And so there was a lot of family dynamic shifting and my dad lost his job and had to figure that out. And my mom started working again. And my mom is a fantastic writer and she is a tutor now. She was an English teacher and a teacher back in the day before she had kids. How old are you when this happens in 2008? I was probably 14. So 8th grade? It was like my freshman year, my freshman sophomore year of high school. Okay. And that was also simultaneously happening, happening as I like was coming out. So that was like a very emotional time for me. So upper middle class? I would say middle middle class.
Middle middle class, which is pretty good in Illinois.
No, I feel very, I feel very fortunate. Um, You know, my parents have always just done a really good job at like raising us with just like a good head on our shoulders. But like, there were moments when, after my dad lost his job, where there was a lot of unknowns, a lot of, you know, uh, twists and turns. And, um, it— that was, that was scary and hard. And I think that there was like this facade prior to all of that happening, that like we were like this picture-perfect family and like nothing can touch us. And, um, there was a lot that went down. Yeah.
And so in school when you were younger, like, were you into sports? Were you into music, drama class? Where— I was a theater kid.
Okay. And I was a choir kid. And I tried every sport imaginable and was not good at most of them.
Did you want to be good at sports?
I wanted to please society as a boy. And I, you know, my dad is, like, so loving and supportive of me. He's incredible. My— both of my parents and my entire family. But I also probably felt a sense of wanting to, um, make him proud because he played sports when he was younger and he's, like, a pretty athletic person.
Well, also in just Illinois, like, yeah, like, he was—
culture. Yeah, totally. He was— he was giving classic, classic dad and wants to play catch with the son. Totally. And I wanted to sing on stage. And when I expressed that, they were like, "Great, you can do that." But there were still moments where I tried— like, I was doing theater, but I was still, like, trying out for the basketball team and the volleyball team and, like, not making any of it. And I was bullied very badly in middle school and just wanted to be a part of the cool crowd, and I was not. And I, you know, felt very invalid in my experience as a boy who just wanted to sing. And before I even came out, I was, you know, relentlessly bullied for being gay or being girly. And, um, so, you know, that's where a lot of— that's where reading also plays a really important role in my life too, because I think it's always been my escape. Yeah. Um, and it's my place to get out of the stress that I find myself in sometimes, and that started when I was really young.
Um, did you have friends in, in theater?
Yes, I had friends. Was that your— was that your people? Those were my people. Those were my people. Um, a lot of the theater I was doing in middle school was like after school, like local community theater. And so it almost felt like there were these two versions of me. It felt like I would go to rehearsal after school and I felt— I did feel cool, and I felt talented, and I felt valuable, and I felt like I I was good at something and I had a purpose. And then I would leave rehearsal, and then I'd go to school the next morning, and I would just be, like, following around people who didn't really give a shit about me and who bullied me and took advantage of me. And so that was really hard. Um, but then as I got older, basically when I was 14 years old, I started. I knew I was gay at that point, like, fully. I think in middle school I was also, like, fighting it. Like, I knew, but I was actively fighting it. How old when you knew? I always say I knew, like, when I was, like, 5. Like, I— you just— but it didn't click, really. I think in 6th and 7th grade, that's when I knew what I was feeling. And I was, you know, doing a little YouTube boys kissing kind of search and like exploring that and being like, huh, like, why do I like this? But no, no, no, like, I, I can't be— I can't be that. And like trying to train my brain to not be gay. Um, and I basically, when I was a freshman in high school, I found myself in a chat room on the internet and I met a guy who, um, I ended up having like just this like small blip of like an internet romance with. It was like nobody knew I was I was hiding everything. And we became friends on Facebook. And basically after we were messaging one day in May of my sof— of my freshman year of high school, so I was 14 years old, I left my Facebook logged on my mom's computer. And our conversation was, like, up on the webpage. And I was in the living room watching a show, and she was in, like, the computer room, and she was like, "Hey!" Like, 'Who is that? Like, who are you talking to?' Because at that, I had messaged him being like, 'I got a haircut today.' And he was like, 'I bet it's super cute.' And she was like, 'Jordy, like, who is this?' And I was like— I came up with some crazy excuse. I was like, 'Oh, it's my friend who was over last night. She was— she couldn't log into her Facebook and was trying to talk to her friends, like, from my—' Like, I was in full panic. And then my driver— my driving teacher pulled up into the driveway. I had a driving lesson. I was, like, trying to get my permit. And I was like, "Gotta go, bye!" Ran out the front door. I'm, like, behind the wheel just, like, sweating profusely, like, knowing that when I get home everything's gonna change. And, like, they know now. You were 14? I was 14.
And so what happens when you get back home?
I get home. I walk through the door. It's really quiet. I had a feeling my dad was, like, in his office, so I just, like, quietly, like, crept through the kitchen. Down the hallway and was going up the stairs. And I was trying to creep into my room really quietly. And I just hear, "Hey!" from my mom's room. And I was like, "Hi." She was like, "Can you come here?" And I was like, "Yeah." And she said, "Me and Dad read everything." and we love you, we love you so much. And, um, I was completely caught off guard because you didn't expect that. I did not expect that, and it felt like an invasion of privacy. Yes, it was, but it was a mixture.
So many kids don't get that.
No, totally, totally. I mean, I look back and sometimes it's like, get out, like 100%. I was so lucky. I think in that moment I was—
Dad there when that happened?
No, Dad was not there in that moment. But basically she was like, my mom, it was just me and her. I was mortified because I just didn't expect it, and I was embarrassed. I think I felt very embarrassed. I mean, they had— there was messages that you— that nobody wants their parents reading. But you are right. I mean, the— I feel grateful every day that my parents are who they are. But my mom was like, so, like, do you like boys? Like, do you even like girls? Like, do you like both? And I always remember this because I am gay, but she was like— I was like, you can't like both, I feel like. And she was like, you can like whoever you want. Like, which I love because I think— I don't know, I think a lot of bisexual people feel like erased and like they feel invalid in their experience. And so I don't know, she immediately from the get-go was like, "You are valid no matter who you like, what you like, whatever." And I was like, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know." And she was like, "I'm gonna bring Dad. Like, Dad's gonna come up now because we're a family and we have to do this together." And I was like, "Please no. Please, please, please, please, please no. I don't want to— I don't want to talk to Dad right now." She was like, "I have to bring him up, George." Like, and so my dad came up and I was like this. I couldn't look at him, and I couldn't look at him. I was so mortified. I was so embarrassed.
And they were like, "We love you." But you felt like you were disappointing him or letting him down? Yes.
Yeah. And— What did he say? He was like— I think it was a mixture of were not really surprised. Like, I think that they were like, you know, like, they're looking back to like, they knew, they knew, like everyone knew.
Do you think it was a relief for them to have it out in the open?
I think so. But I all— I definitely— but I think that they also, even though they were so loving and accepting, I think they did need to like mourn this life that they thought I would have too. Like, I basically went away to this, like, outdoorsy summer camp that I went to, like, over the summers. Like, it was basically like a week after this happened I went to camp. And I think they had their summer to kind of, like, connect with each other and, like, understand that when I came back they were gonna provide me with the resources that I needed. And I mean, they were— they were fantastic. They were absolutely amazing. And I look back and I just wonder how long it would have taken me to come out, because when I got back from camp I started telling my friends. And I wonder how long I would have stayed closeted if that didn't And so fate has also played a really interesting role in my life too.
Isn't it crazy how just that moment and how, uh, how incredible your parents are that it was, you know, they're worried about you.
Yeah.
It's about you, you know. Yeah. And how if you would have had different parents, that could have been completely different.
I think about it all the time, and I think as a queer artist You know, I've been putting out music since 2018, and I've been out for so long that when I started making music, everyone is always like, did you have like a decision that you— did you make a decision to like be out in your music like when you started making music? And like, did you know you were gonna be like completely transparent with your sexuality like when you started releasing music? And I look— I look back and I, I never even thought about it. I knew I was going to write songs about my true experience, which is that of a gay man. And over the years, I feel that it is my responsibility to be a voice for the community. And as a— as an artist, it's my job to make songs that represent me and, like, the people in my community, and also, like, get on stage and perform for people and create safe spaces for people that just want to listen to music and be their authentic selves. And I don't think I would be the person I am today, and I don't think I would ever have the strength to do what I do if it wasn't for the fact that I was met immediately with love when my parents found out. Um, so I feel just incredibly grateful for them every day.
How is that next year of high school?
It was really good. Strangely, after I came out, the bullying stopped. Explain that. Why does it stop? Because I think that when you're closeted, if someone looks at you and they're like, gay, it feels really scary, and it feels like an attack, and it feels like you're coming for me, and I'm— I feel weak. But once I was able to say, yeah, yeah, And that's true. What I— like, you know what I mean? It's just, it changes. And I think I just became more confident. And when I was in middle school, I was not confident. I had no idea how to be myself in front of people besides for, like, the girls at play practice, you know, who, like, were like, "Oh my God, you're so cute!" and, like, "We love you!" and, like, "You're so good at singing!" And then I'd go to school and, you know, it would be a different environment. But yeah, in high school, the theater program was, like, really, like, rigorous. I went to a public high school, but they really funded the arts. The choral program was incredible. I was singing, I was acting, I was performing all the time. And it was, like, competitive and fun and cool. And, like, it just— there was a complete shift to high school. I will say that, of course, I was still struggling. And there was a lot I went through in high school that nobody knows, that like, um, that was happening beneath the surface. And I, I became this like token gay boy of the community, it felt like. And everyone was like, oh my God, you're so strong, like you're so inspiring, like how did you do it? And I kind of put on this mask where I— that was true, but there was a lot happening that people didn't know. Um, and I still was struggling with feeling just like a, like, a valuable part of the world and like a wanted part of the world, like, and a loved part of the world. And, um, so there was part—
is part of that struggle what was going on at home with 2008 in the crash?
I, you know, I think it all stems down to, yeah, like, being, like, really, really young and just, like, wanting to, like, please my parents and, like, making them proud. Like, being worried that I'm, like, a disappointment. Like, it's like they could have the reaction they did when I came out, and I still have these feelings of, like, oh, but, like, I am a disappointment. Like, I, I convinced myself of that also because I grew up in a world where like, there was so much stigma against being queer and, like, being gay. I mean, like, it's crazy because there's such scary things happening now, and yet there's, like, more queer art than ever. But it's also, like, we're living in such a scary time. I think it's weird because there were— there was no— there wasn't really any queer gay male artists for— for me to look up to when I was a kid. Like, it wasn't really a thing. Like, a lot of the gay artists we think of weren't truly out in their music. Like, it was always like a little mysterious, it was ambiguous, it was like always like maybe like assumed, but like nobody really talked about it. And so, and you know, like, you, you are raised on straight media essentially. Like, most movies follow a heterosexual plotline, a romance, whatever it is. And so you just, you don't see yourself in what is being represented in art and in media. And so your brain just goes, "Oh, then you're different, and, like, people don't want to, like, represent you, so that means there's probably something bad about being that." So I think it's just the growing through that. Um, you know, I did have— I ended up having great friends in high school and people who I still love and talk to, and a lot of creative people who are doing their thing, and, like, I'm doing my thing, and it's cool to see where we're at now. Um, I grew up in a really great community. Um, and at the same time, there was like a lot of hard things that I went through, um, that's like still hard to talk about sometimes, you know? Like what? There was an athlete who bullied me in high school, um, and actually like probably starting in 5th grade. He was like a bully, and he was like sexually taking advantage of me, and he would, uh, touch me, and he would, um, there was just like this secret thing. He would bully me for being girly and being gay, and like lots of terrible things were said to me, and when nobody was looking, he would, you know, sneak me into the bathroom. And like, it was terrible. It was really painful. And I'm only just now starting to kind of speak on that because at the time it was very— it wasn't— I didn't feel valid in my— in it being wrong because I wasn't like, no, no, stop. Like, I— it felt like at the time I was consenting to it, but like obviously, like, upon reflection, like, he was my bully. I felt threatened by him. I felt scared of him. Um, but I was also really confused and trying to come to terms with the fact that I liked boys. And so it felt really confusing to me because there's a part of it that felt like validating and then a part that felt completely dehumanizing. Um, and that was like the first experience I've ever had with a, with a guy was kind of being used and like discarded like a toy and being hushed about it and like, don't tell anyone, you know? Um, and that like continued throughout high school.
Yeah, there's a huge contradiction in that too, right? Yeah, of the sense that he's pretending to be one thing and doing something else. Totally. So have you been in a lot of relationships that you end up being the one That it's an unfair balance, I guess.
I don't know how to word it, but explain, like, not healthy. Um, I— so I've only been in one really serious relationship in my life. It was like my college boyfriend for the last couple of years of college before I decided to move to LA and like pursue my dream. Um, it was like a beautiful relationship and um, really intense. And it was like first love, and it was beautiful. Like, loved his family, he loved my family, like my family loved him. It was great. Um, on the other side of it, I was very anxiously attached. I needed reassurance a lot. Um, my anxiety was like so bad all the time. I thought he would leave. I was always, you know, if I didn't hear from him in the morning, I would panic. Like, I was really addicted to him. I was— I was addicted to feeling validated by other people. Because even as a performer and, like, auditioning for roles as a kid and, like, not getting them and, like, feeling like I wasn't good enough, it's like there are these moments in my life where I'm like, all I want to do is feel good enough for you, and all I want to do is feel like, um, that I have what it takes to, like, get the part or, like, sing this or be a good partner, um, or to, to be loved. And I ended up putting a lot of pressure on the relationship to fill the voids in myself that clearly existed. Um, and so when that breakup happened, it was, like, very life-changing for me too because I let him go and I moved to LA. And I started finding more purpose in music and creating more of a sense of self. Because like, when I was in college, I was like an English major, but I knew I wanted to do music, so I just— I didn't really have a clear path. My ex was like, "I'm doing pre-med. I'm gonna go to med school. I know exactly what I wanna do." I was like, "I have no idea what I wanna do or how I'm gonna get there." Like, what, I want to become a pop star? You know? And, um, because you're— yeah, you're an artist. I'm an artist. Yeah. And it took me moving to LA, moving across the country, and, you know, my career has also just been an entire journey of its own. And there's been many ups and downs and moments where I have felt like I am fighting so hard to just be, like, wanted and loved by not just the general public but by people in the industry. Um, people who I want to work with, like, I just want to be good enough to like work with a certain producer or a writer. It's, it's a lot of, are you good enough, are you good enough, are you good enough. Um, and I think basically, long story short, um, there was a person I worked with for many years throughout my career that resulted in a really unhealthy, toxic relationship that wasn't romantic at all, but it was very unhealthy. And I felt like, as a vulnerable artist in the industry, you depend on people in the industry to take care of you and not to take advantage of you. And I felt really, like, unsafe in that relationship. And so right before I wrote my new record, I let go of that person. And I think, um, that represented a lot for me because Even though it wasn't romantic, I still think that there were parts of that relationship that echoed my— the issues I was having in, like, my romantic relationship too, where, like, we were kind of, like, feeding off of each other and, like, needing validation. There, there— it was intimate. Not romantic intimacy, but intimate. You were vulnerable.
Very. And still feel the same.
100%. And that, like, my career rides on— like, the success of my career rides on this relationship. And maintaining this relationship. And I think a lot of artists have been through this, and it's really hard to say goodbye to that because you're like, I don't know what's going to happen in my career.
I hate it too when in those situations people are like, well, it's business, and you're like, no, it's not. No, it's not business, it's my life. Like, totally. You can just discount it as, oh, it's okay because it's business.
Like, right, it's like so weird. Exactly. And like You know, the con of doing— of making your passion your job is that, I mean, at least for me as a songwriter, it's like my most vulnerable inner thoughts become a product that I have to sell. And it's— it becomes my business. More vulnerable, the—
the more it connects with people.
Totally. Yeah. And there's—
there's also a bravery to that. Yeah. Because most people can't allow themselves to go there. So if you can allow yourself to be that brave and be that vulnerable, it is going to connect with people. But then you're connecting with them on your trauma. Mm-hmm. 100%. Which then that's a, that's a thing to navigate too, because then that's all they want to talk about.
I feel like my vulnerability and my ability to wear my heart on my sleeve throughout my career has been my superpower. And I feel really grateful that, you know, that does come from my parents too. And my mom especially, I think, was always like— she was— she— people in my family are such good listeners. And I think I just learned how to become a good listener. And when you listen, I think a huge part of writing songs is listening. And I get to— I'm writing songs about my experience, but I am I'm a hugely collaborative person. And so, the best songs not only come from me being in the studio sharing with my collaborators what I've been through, but it's about being able to listen to how they connect to that as well and what experiences they've been through. It makes you feel less alone. It makes you feel more valid. And I think the more years I spend writing songs and working with people and having those beautiful moments where everyone is kind of putting their shit on the table, um, you become more comfortable with, like, sharing those pieces of you because you just know that someone out there is going to feel the same, you know. Um, and I feel like that's really driven my, my journey, and that's how I've accumulated, like, the community and the fans that I've been able to over the years, is just, like, through this honesty, you know. Like, yeah, it's better than therapy, right? Well, therapy is necessary too, but it is, it is, it is therapy in its own way for sure. I think, um, I feel very lucky that like when I go to work, sometimes it— like I could be going through something and I like get to like go make art about it and like talk to my friends about it and simultaneously have my one therapy appointment a week with a professional who can actually, uh, you know, like medically talk to me about some of those things, which I, you know, I believe is really important. But my work is cathartic. It is therapy. And when I play shows, it's just as much of a therapy session for me as it is for the people, like, in the crowd listening to me sing. Which people need to remember. Like, you're not— like, when you listen to an artist you love and you feel so seen and heard, imagine how the artist feels to see all of the people listening also being like, "I feel seen and heard." Like, they feel now seen and heard. And I think that that's really beautiful.
That's the beauty of art when it works. So what is the lesson in your experience with the love of your life in college, moving out here, having the breakup in a business sense with, you know, whoever that was? And, you know, like a lot of times I think when we're growing up, we feel like we have to put this wall up or we, you know, we have to change the way we approach things. What is your takeaway from those experiences, or what would be the thing that you learned from it that made you better?
I think I learned how to love my own company. I think I learned how to love being alone. Is—
and so not needing the validation of others?
I think it's always a struggle, especially like in my area, in, in my work. It's like, you know, yeah, it's like you put out an album, it's like you hope people listen to it. You hope people buy the record. You hope people buy tickets. You hope all of those things. Um, but I think— I was just talking about this in therapy the other day— I think for a while it felt like a need, and I think now it's a want. And I think differentiating those two, like, I'm allowed to want success and for people to, yeah, like, buy tickets to my show and, and stream my album and, um, I want people to support me as an artist. I want that. I want to open for bigger artists. I want a lot of things to happen. I think there was a point in time where I felt like I needed a partner, a person, a viral moment to feel truly okay in my skin. But I learned that every time somebody else would provide me with that, or anytime I had a high from, like, a song performing really well or going viral on TikTok, It was a high that lasted for not even like a day, you know? It's like you're in it and you're like, "Yay! All right, what's next? What's the next thing that can top that?" Right? And so leaving that toxic relationship, doing a bunch of therapy, doing the inner child work, all of this, writing this album, I think I really learned to love my own company. I like love— I like live alone. I love like my little library. I love my space. I love my time. I love floating in my, my room.
Yeah, I love— love it. You're, uh, you're floating on the COVID of this, which is pretty cool.
It is cool. I know your glasses— or did they fall?
And I don't know, I lost them.
I think they fell. What is the—
what is the song on here that is the most personal?
Oh, um, and who's it about? Well, that's a good question. I think— who's God Complex about? God Complex is about this toxic relationship. Who's Bad Sex about? Same person. I will tell you the first 4 songs. Bad Sex is me wishing bad sex upon someone forever. It's me cursing them. Oh, like a witch? Like a witch. I'm being witchy with it, and it's a pop rock banger. Um, I thought this album would be like an F you record. I thought I was gonna— like, these first songs, God Complex, Bad Sex, I was pissed and angry and I was getting it out of my system. But then as I was continuing on this journey of like finding myself by leaving that toxic thing, I started to like just uncover more about myself And I would say the two most personal songs— it's hard to let— like, they're all personal. I would say it's between a song called Normal People. That is me— not— it's not about anyone. It's about me kind of mourning the life I thought I would have at 31 when I was a kid. I'm not married. I don't have kids. I think that when I was young, I, like, imagined I would have that White Picket Fence. I think something my mom said to me when I came out was like, you will be able to have the white picket fence, you will be able to have the family. And like, she made sure I knew that I would be able to have that. And I believe that that's possible for me one day, but I think I wrote that song out of just being like, well, it's not happening when I thought it would. And I think that there's a lot of other people in their 30s, 40s, 50s Onward, who like never found the life partner and never had kids. And some people like it that way, and I'm learning to like it that way. But I think it's still this back and forth of like the things I could have had versus what I do. Um, and then little distractions. I wrote, uh, the week I decided to quit vaping. Strangely enough, I was addicted to vaping, and I had a really bad vaping addiction. Nicotine. For years, and I quit, and it was really hard. Like cold turkey? Cold turkey.
I did. I decided—
I, I was— I decided I was done. I had tried a couple times prior. I would like not do it when I was on the road. I was like, I'm gonna like care about my voice when I'm on tour, and then as soon as I'd get home, I would start again, and There was just like a moment last year where I was like starting to work out again and like getting healthier, and it was just— I would freak out if I couldn't find it. Like, it's not in my pockets, like, where is it? Like, it became this— it was a pacifier. Like, it was this crutch. And I quit, and I went into the studio, and, you know, it was something I hid from a lot of people. And I was, I was ashamed by it. I was embarrassed by it. It felt so stupid. Like, it's just like an icky look. And, um, we wrote this song called Little Distractions because I'm like, you know, something as, as surface level as vaping, like, there's more beneath the surface. It's not just a nicotine addiction. It's, it's like, it's the pacifier of it all. It's like this thing that you think is helping your anxiety, but it's actually creating like more of a cycle of worse anxiety. And I guess in the chorus I'm kind of talking about, you know, whether it's like my ex in my bed or a joint that I'm smoking or ghosting my friends and thinking that that's helping. Like, we all have these ways of distracting ourselves from actually attacking the issue. And I just say like, getting numb is a bandage, a little distraction. You know, we all have our moments where we just like want to have that drink at the end of the day, or you're feeling sad about something, so you want to like spark up. And I wanted to write a song about that, so I did. And, um, I mean, there's so many more on the, on the record that I'm so proud of that I feel like are really just pieces of my heart. And I love, I love it. I really do. I'm so proud of It's fun.
Well, we're going to— I can't wait to listen to it. Me too. Me too. Okay, let's, let's talk about the book. Okay. One thing that I just thought was beautiful is your explanation. So we do a little pre-interview. Yeah, I've, I've never read anybody's pre-interview before, but yours, like, I don't know, it just really connected with me. So yeah, in reference to, to the book, you said it was one of the reasons I started reading again. The rush, the excitement, the way my mind was truly manipulated into thinking I knew exactly what was going on when I didn't at all. When Part 1 ends, it is like discovering what psychological thrillers were actually capable of. It was truly a feeling I hadn't experienced, needing to go back and reread everything, realizing you were wrong the entire time. It also proved to me that we as readers have room to feel empathy for all people. Yeah, that we all have a story and that we all are trying to escape some type of trauma. Yeah, I thought that was beautiful, like having empathy even for the villain. Totally. And how a writer can do that.
Can I say, like, somewhat of a hot take? If you'd have my hot take, I think reading fiction is so important because I think it really helps you step into empathy and growing empathy. I think that obviously, like, there's so many brilliant works of nonfiction. I love memoirs. Like, I love learning about the world and about history. Um, I love learning about my brain. But I think that there is something to, like, being— to, to having, having to be placed in somebody else's shoes and being forced to see the world through their lens is a really, really cool experience. And I think it's really important to experience that as a person because it helps you feel for others. And with this book, you feel as though you are reading a book about a mother's trauma who loses her son, and it just flips it on its head. And there's a lot you're like, "Wait, Oh my God, like, do I need to feel differently now? Like, where this is now going? Like, like, you're just kind of mind blown, and you're like, oh my God, this whole time I was like seeing it through this one lens, and now I'm seeing it through a completely different lens. And, you know, I've, I've seen and listened to episodes of this podcast, and I think I, I have yet to come across someone talk about like a psychological thriller, and I may have missed one. I don't know if I didn't catch one, but I think that it takes such brilliant skill to manipulate someone's brain in this way and have it make so much sense and have it come together in such a satisfying, perfect, perfectly plotted way. And so I just, I applaud Claire McIntosh, 'cause as you said, when I finished part one, this was like— I'll never forget where I was, how I felt, the jaw on the floor. I mean, it's truly unlike anything I've ever experienced. More than any film, more than any show, I don't know if I'll ever feel that again. Ever.
When you tell people about this book, so if you recommend to a friend, "You should read this book," Do you warn them, or do you let them go in blind?
I, I, I would say go in as blind as possible. This book is, like, notoriously known for its twist. This book— and there are some books like that, and I think some people might say, like, if you know that there's a twist, is that, like, a, like, a spoiler? But as you said earlier, I think every thriller needs a twist. Like, you need it. You need a plot twist in a thriller. So I knew there was a twist going into this. I was still floored out of my mind, absolutely floored out of my mind. Um, I would say if you are looking for just an incredible fast-paced twisted journey that will keep you gripped and on the edge of your seat the entire time, you need to read this. If you want to feel what it feels like to have your mind be completely manipulated into thinking one thing and then it becomes another, Um, you need to read this book. You need to read this book.
It's so— okay, now I'll tell you in the audience, do me a favor, if you want to read this book, yes, pause this and come back after you read it if you haven't read it, because we're gonna spoil it. And we don't— if you haven't read it and you want to read it, come back to this after you order the book and read it. Yes, yes, fair enough. Fair enough. And we encourage you to do that.
We encourage you. We'll be here. Stop now.
Whenever you want us.
But I have a lot of— there might be some people who have read this, and So keep listening if you're one of those people, or pause now, read it, come back. Okay? Cool. Okay.
So now for somebody who hasn't read the book, kind of explain the beginning of the story. And wasn't she, or isn't she a former— She's a former cop. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of this comes from her experience.
Yes. She also says in the author's note at the end that she lost her son. Her son passed away. And in very different circumstances than what happens in this book. But I think she has this history of being in the police force and also knows what it's like to lose a child. So I guess we just told you, if you haven't read this, go away. But if you're still listening because you love a spoiler, I will tell you what this book is about. The book begins with a very devastating scene that's written in third person, which which ends up being quite important, which we can get into. But there is a prologue that is written italicized and in third person, and it portrays a mother walking her son home from school. They get back to their neighborhood, they literally are across the street from their home, and all of a sudden her son lets go of her hand and runs into the street, and a car hits him, and the car drives off, and the son dies. And so, I mean, it's just hard to not wanting to keep reading after that. You're like, "Holy shit, this is so intense." Your heart's beating fast, like, "What happens?" Right? So the book kind of opens with the lead detective of the case, his name's Ray, and the book opens with him kind of hearing about the new case and how they're gonna go about it and solve the crime. And they go to the mother's house and they're consoling her. And one of the police officers takes the mother into the kitchen and they're like, "Let me just make you some tea." And, you know, they're just getting into it all. The next chapter begins. You don't know whose perspective it's from, but it's of a woman who's in the kitchen. There's a man making tea for her, and she's devastated at the loss of this boy. And so you learn, you know, that this woman's name is Jenna, and she You know, this accident changed her life, and she is devastated. She is someone who has lost a son. She has gone through something that nobody wants to ever go through. And suddenly this boy who gets hit by the car is all over the news. It's everywhere she goes. She feels as though she is being suffocated by this story. It's everywhere she goes, and she keeps having these flashbacks of the accident and, like, watching it happen. And you follow Jenna as she moves to this seaside town to start her life over. And as she is starting over, it flips back and forth from the detective who's trying to solve the case, and to Jenna Gray, who is mourning the loss of a son, and mourning and going through the aftermath of this accident. And then you get to the end of Part 1. And I'm just gonna say it, guys. Again, this is it. This is the moment where you're gonna pause. You end up learning that Jenna Grey is not the mother of the son who died. You learn that she is the woman who hit him. And it— It, it is so— it's really hard to describe this book to people because when the book starts and you're getting Jenna's perspective, Claire does such a good job at that second chapter. So it's— I think it's page 162.
Well, that's— that is where the pivotal moment happens.
Yes, that is where you learn who Jenna really is.
As soon as I open the door, I know exactly what is happening. All I ever wanted was an escape, to pretend to myself that the life I lived before the accident belonged to someone else, and to fool myself that I could be happy again. I often wondered why my reaction— what my reaction would be when I was found. I wondered how it would feel to be brought back and whether I would fight it. But when the policeman says my name, I simply nod.
Yes, that's me, I say. And even at that point, you're like, oh, okay. This is a mourning mother. She's trying to escape what had happened to her. Her son died tragically. All she wants to do is put it behind her and start a new life. And you assume that the detectives at this point have found the person who's driving the car, and they're coming, they find her in this seaside town, and they're coming to tell her, "Hey, we— are you the mother of Jacob? We found who did this." But then it says, "The woman next to him steps forward. She looks younger with dark hair that curls around her face. 'Detective Constable Kate Evans,' she says, opening a leather wallet to show a flash of a metal badge. 'Bristol CID. I am arresting you for causing death by dangerous driving and for failing to stop at the scene of an accident.'" And then it goes down, "Jenna thinks, 'I shut my eyes and exhale slowly. It's time to stop pretending.'" And then I have part 2. I parked, guys, on this next page. If you've read this book, you, you know, you know how— just like, I still— I, I have chills thinking about it still. It's just the way— because also, like, a part of the story was like the detectives like couldn't find the mom, like the actual mom, because like she had like kind of flee. She fled to also, like, get away from the press and the media. So, like, you think that Jenna is the mom. And so why I— in the pre-interview, why I talk about empathy is that the whole time you feel heartbroken for this woman based on what she is telling you, based on what you know by her, which is that she went through a tragic accident, she's trying to escape a traumatic past, she separately lost her own son. Which is, you know, you find out in Part 2, like, none of it was— all of that was true. And yet, in Part 2, you learn about how Jenna got to that place in that moment. And you learn that what she went through was a nightmare and how she got to that moment. And then there's more twists at the end and stuff, but I think it's just crazy because you think you're feeling one thing for a person, And then once you realize that it's not the person you actually thought it was, do all the feelings you felt, like, just go away? I mean, like, they— that's why it's cool to read books, because you, you're hearing the perspective of whatever someone is going through. And even if it's wrong, and even if it's awful, and even if they're guilty of something, this proves that you can still feel empathy for someone.
Have you ever, uh, watched that documentary on HBO called Crazy Not No, actually.
Okay.
So there was this— she, she was— I think she was in college when it started. Okay. But she was somehow ended up being an expert witness for serial killers. So she would basically testify to the serial killer's, you know, competence or whatever it was. But she was an expert. So Ted Bundy, like all the worst serial killers in America. She basically spent time with them, analyzed them, has recordings and all of it. And when she says this crazy thing and she's like, I'm not— I'm not condoning the crime, like the crime is terrible. But she said you can just draw this chart that the amount of abuse that they had is directly correlated to how violent their crimes were. And she tells a story about this one serial killer who his mom would throw boiling water on his back and whip him at the age of 4 to the point where you disassociate. And so she, she was one of the first doctors to kind of observe dissociation in multiple personalities and all that. And You know, the, the point is society might have created these people. They weren't born that way, in a way. And it's— I don't know, that stuff is fascinating to me. Absolutely.
And as soon as part 2 starts, she was created—
like, she's circumstances that happen. Yes. And you in the same shoes can pretend that you would be different, but you really don't know.
100%. Because we're all human.
Because we're all human. Yeah. And that's the empathy.
That's the empathy.
And if you pretend that you would be different, I know you're pretending. Like, I always go back to, uh, Germany in World War II and all the people that just stood by. And it's like, you pretend that you would have stood up, but really, would you?
It's hard. No, it's, it's like you find yourself in those situations It's easy for you to think about something happening to you and being like, yeah, no, like, I would stand up for that person. Like, yeah, I'd be the hero. And then you find yourself in the heat of that moment and you feel fear and selfish, like you want to protect yourself. And, um, you're so right. I know. I think that that's where I have— I, I don't like that sometimes I feel like people base opinions on books. Like, they'll, they'll create an opinion that's based on, like, Like maybe like I didn't like the character, so I don't like the book. And I'm like, but also maybe the point was to not like the character or to also, or to maybe, you know, like it's, it just, yeah. Like I, I, this is the opposite.
You like the character and you probably shouldn't. Right. Yeah. Right. And that is the lesson. Yes, totally. And we're not so different. I think, like, so different. We want to pretend like we would handle things different, and yeah, but unless you've walked in somebody else's shoes, there's no way to tell.
Totally. Um, which is beautiful. It is beautiful. I mean, like, that— the, the thing with thrillers, I find, is like sometimes in a thriller or like a police procedural, it's harder to dive deeper into the character development because it's so plot-driven. And I think something I loved about this book was how emotional it is. I mean, it's like, it's not just a— like, there's authors who— in books that are kind of revolved around the twist, like, and everything else isn't as important. This, I feel like, has like both the incredible twist, but it's not just good because of the twist. It's good because of how many emotions you feel throughout the experience of reading it. I mean, you feel like you're really in the depths of these people's brains and I just think it's brilliant.
So let's talk about Ian for a second. So she meets Ian, right? He's giving a lecture. Yeah. And he's an older—
he's older. You basically, when Part 2 begins, none of the chapters are, like, labeled on whose perspective it is. You kind of just learn as you go. But you know that you're getting this new perspective, and it's of this man, Ian. And the first line of Part 2 is like, "The first time I saw you." It's giving this eerie creepiness. And you immediately kind of start to understand that he becomes— he is the reason Jenna got to where she arrived, which was this moment of being behind the wheel in this moment of impact. There's a power dynamic. He's older, um, and he becomes this terrible abusive partner. And the— but the second half, it's almost like the first half is like a mystery, and the second half becomes this like crazy thriller. Like, it becomes this like dark, dark tale of, of domestic violence and abuse. Because even you said like the crimes, like people's violent crimes, are like correlated with the abuse that they've endured. And like, you learn that like this woman was being abused.
So one of the things Ian does to her is he isolates her, and he— she has interest and he discourages her. Yeah, from those interests, right? Yeah. So on 2/37, you had spent what seems like weeks trudging around the city's gift shops and galleries with samples of your work and all you had to show for it were two shops, each wanting a dozen or so pots of vases to sell on a commission basis. You were as pleased as if you had won the lottery, spreading far more effort on each vase than on anything you had done before. The longer you spend, the less you're earning for your time. I had reminded you, but it seemed my business experience was wasted on you. And he continued to spend hours painting you continue to spend hours painting and glazing. He's trying to diminish the value of what she's doing by dollars and cents. Totally. And isolate her and discourage her from doing the thing in the world. So she's alone and all she has is him, which is a great way to build a cult. Yeah, it's, it's a— I mean, that's what cults do, right? Is you isolate everybody from their family. From the outside world so you can control their thoughts.
Yeah, I— it's honestly a horrifying— it's a horrifying story to read. I mean, like, you, like, you see, like, this, like, slow buildup of, like, mental manipulation and complete abuse. And the only reason I was smiling before— because I shouldn't be smiling reading the scene— but I just in this moment had this thought where I'm like, It's interesting that the witnessing of Jenna's being manipulated by someone comes in part 2. I think it's really interesting that the author basically puts you through part 1, completely manipulates your mind, and then in part 2, you witness someone whose mind is being manipulated. And I think it's almost like a symbol to show, like, you like, whether you like it or not, like, you know what it's like to be manipulated. You know what it's like to think that you're living a certain life or to, to be reading about someone's life and then have it be completely flipped. And I think it's an interesting way to put you in the mind of someone who is being manipulated. I absolutely love it when people practice what they preach.
Yeah, even when you're like, hey, whoa, you're doing that to me. Yeah, but I love that. Totally. Crazy. She's practicing what she preaches, in a sense.
We also— I mean, I don't know if this is the time to bring this up, but basically when I first read this and I finished part one and I was freaking out, like freaking out in my apartment, I went online and like immediately, immediately posted a video just being like, read this, read this damn book. If you're into thrillers, psychological suspense, this This is the best plot twist I've ever experienced in my life. Claire saw the video, the author Claire McIntosh. She saw the video, she followed me, she commented on it, and I mean, I was just so excited to see her. You know, we started following each other. We now have like sent messages to each other, and like she very kindly, after seeing that, that video of me talking about her book, she sent me like, the very first arc of her new book that came out this year, or that's not even out in the US yet, but it's out in the UK. It's called It's Not What You Think. And she wrote me a note, and it says, "For Jordy, with grateful thanks for your support. Um, dear Jordy, as promised, I hope it makes your jaw drop at least once. Love, Claire." And, um, now we have like a little internet friendship, and I, I've been to connect with other authors too online, and it's really cool because what they do is so important. And like, there is a literacy crisis, and I try to post about the books I'm reading as much as I can because I want people to feel excited about reading. I think people— a lot of people think of reading and they think of boring, and like, it's, it's, it sounds like a task, it sounds like homework. And I firmly believe that if you feel that about reading, you just haven't found the right thing to read. And reading did change my life. And when I read this book, my life felt like so all-consuming in this world of, am I good enough? So in my own mind. And that's why I brought up the fiction thing. Like, the more I read, the more I was able to escape my mind and put myself in somebody else's shoes. And it changed my life. I mean, I read like 2 books a week now. Like, it's like a full part of my everyday routine. I need to do it. I love doing it. And think that there's just so much out there. There's fantasy, romantic sci-fi, thrillers, historical fiction, literary. I mean, it's like whatever you're interested in, there's a book about it. And, um, it just helps me so much. It has changed my mental health. It gets me off my phone. It's, it's good for me. It's good for us. And so when I feel so excited about a book, I always go online. I have like a little book account on TikTok, and I love to post about what I'm reading and what's exciting me in books right now. And through that, I've been able to connect with a bunch of authors, and it's been really cool.
Really cool. And I have to imagine it influences your writing, your songwriting. Totally.
Absolutely. I mean, when I wrote this album, I was reading the most I've ever written ever. Like, I'm sorry, ever read ever. Um, and a book can be a muse. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Can we talk about the ending?
Yes. Okay.
He doesn't like the ending. No, no, no.
I didn't say that. Okay. Okay. Go to 3. Here. Read that.
He reaches for me and I push out my hand, smashing the heel of my palm into the underside of his chin. The impact pushes him backward as he— and he teeters for what feels like seconds on the edge of the cliff. He reaches for me, clawing for my dressing gown, and his fingers brush against the fabric. I cry out and step back, but I lose my balance, and for a moment, I think I'm going with him, crashing against the cliff on the way down to the sea. But then I'm face down on the edge of the cliff, and he is falling. I look down and see a glimpse of his rolled-back eyes before the waves suck him under. I mean—
We think Ian's dead. Ian is dead. Well, I read the next tab.
I believe Ian's dead.
Um, so in, in the story, so she's, she's got this little business where she's drawing people's names in the sand and taking pictures. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
I pull my coat— this is the very end of the book— I pull my coat around myself to ward off the sudden chill that surrounds me. I'm seeing things. There's nothing written there on the sand, nothing carved in bold straight letters. It's not there. I cannot see my name. Jennifer. The sea doesn't falter. The next wave breaks over the marks in the sand, and they are gone. A gull gives a final sweep of the bay as the tide comes in and the sun slips beneath the horizon, and then it is dark. He, he called her Jennifer.
He was the only one.
He was. I also have my own theories about the end. Let's hear them. Also, Claire does speak to the ending. Uh, it was like deep in like an online forum. Like, I was so deep about this, guys. Like, you have no idea. Basically, even Claire— Claire basically wrote in a forum that Ian is dead. And the reason she ended it this way is because I think it is a reminder that, like, no matter of how you get through something so traumatic, and even if you get through it and you're on the other side, you're always going to be somewhat haunted by the things that you went through. And I think that in this moment, Jennifer, and seeing that in the sand and seeing it kind of wash away, is more a mind game happening in her head, but also a symbol for the fact that that chapter of her life is gone, but she will still need to live with the consequences of feeling triggered and scared and I know a lot of people love a really— I know, I know, I know, it's not as closed. It's not as closed of an ending. I need my villains dead.
I, I think otherwise I have nightmares.
I think Ian's dead, but I get it.
Well, she said he's dead. He's dead. She says she's dead. It's all the closure I need. Yeah, exactly. Okay, big question. Sure. How did I Let You Go by Claire McIntosh change your life?
I Let You Go changed my life because it brought me out of myself. At the time I read this book, I was going through such a hard time and balancing so many difficult relationships and feelings, and reading this book not only got me back into reading on, you know, a regular schedule. Like, I fell in love with the experience of reading this book so much, it kept me wanting to read more and more and more books. But this book also forced me into the shoes of another person who has gone through trauma and hardship, and it really challenged my brain, and it proved what what authors are capable of doing. I think that what is done in this book wouldn't have been able to be done on film or in a show. I think it is so unique. Um, and I've just never had a jaw-dropping moment like that before. And I was— I was floored. I was absolutely floored. And, uh, I'll just never forget that moment. And I would just love to take this moment to thank Clare for— just being such an honest and beautiful writer and for inspiring me to continue reading books because I loved it so much. Yeah, it's high art. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Well, thank you for picking that book.
I'm so happy to talk about it.
So fun. Okay, how long did it take you to write and record your new record?
It took me almost 2 years, a year and a half to 2 years.
And so we're sitting here— does this come out tomorrow?
It comes out on Friday, tomorrow night technically, on the West Coast. Yeah.
How vulnerable do you feel now that you've done it? It's printed, it's pressed. I know. And it hasn't been heard by the world yet, but it's coming.
I know. What does that feel like? It feels nerve-wracking. It feels, um, you know, that I'm jittery. I, I got some anxieties. You know, the classic release weeks are always, like, a little bit of, like, this, like, roller coaster of emotions. But I also feel ready to let it go. I love bringing the title back into it. But there is this, you know, even in the book, it's like, there are moments where you just, you need to let something go. And as an artist, and this will be my fourth record, you sit on these songs for so long and You create this world and this universe, and it hits a point where you feel ready to give birth. You feel ready to birth it into the world for other people to listen to. And I feel ready. I feel ready.
What do you want us to walk away from after we hear it?
I always want people to feel less alone. I want people to feel seen and valid in their experience. I think that there were angry moments on this record. Um, at the very beginning of the album, you get some anger, and I think anger is a really difficult emotion for me to express. And so when you're listening to God Complex and Coulda Not and Bad Sex, I want people to feel valid in their anger because it's okay to be angry. Um, and then, you know, I want that to open the door to potentially some self-discovery and give people a space to not feel shame about maybe addictions they've gone through, or the fact that they are past the age they thought they would be when they would be married and had a family. Like, I want them to feel valid in their experience. And I end the record on a song called "So Whatever" that I wrote that came from a place of we spend so much time worried about really non-serious things. Sometimes it's just whatever. It's just whatever. Enjoy life. Like, take that deep breath and keep moving forward, you know? I love it.
Great, great cover. Thank you so much. That picture—
my— one of my best friends, his name's Dante. We went to college together. He's taken every album artwork of mine ever. Um, he's talented. Dante's very talented. And we also worked with a creative director named Thomas J who helped me conceptualize this vision. And it's called In Retrospect because I think this was also my turning 30 record, and I think there was a lot I went through in my 20s that I'm able to reflect on retrospectively now and kind of understand that even though it was so painful at the time, I'm really happy I went through it because I feel the strongest I've ever felt right now. And, uh, I just feel like, yeah, the image is so captivating and striking. And I don't know, I just— I love— there's like an emptiness and an eeriness, but there's also, you know, this like vulnerability. And I don't know, I just love it. I love it a lot.
Well, we appreciate you doing this. Thanks.
Thank you for having me, guys.
We are so excited to announce the Books That Changed My Life web website. We made a way for you to show your book pride and that you love books. Hats, tees, hoodies— check it out, link in the description. Everybody needs a self-help hat.
