Learning on the Fly! Rally/Drifter/Lawyer, Turned Auto Entrepreneur - ACP (Service Drive Revolution)

Now I'm 6 4, and I got 37 inch arms, right? So I'm long and I'm leaning back so far on this 110 bike that I'm like, my hips are, like, behind the rear fender. Like, the front's almost off the ground already, right? I'm, like, riding it like that. And in retrospect, that wasn't how Travis rode it, but I get up to the top of the ramp and I do a perfect backflip straight up, and we come back down on the edge of the ramp, the bike lands on me, and we slide back down the ramp like Wile E. Coyote, like, right. Really? Totally.

Welcome everybody, to Service Drive Revolution today. Our guest is famous, handsome and talented and going to be a very fun conversation. He is the winner of Rally America. He was the champion, Canadian Rally National Champion, North American rally champion, Baja 1000 class winner, Pikes Peak record holder, Formula Drift pro drifter, and B.F. goodrich official spokesperson. Please, everybody, welcome Andrew Comrie Picard to the show.

Hope I can live up to that.

You tell my grandpa that you're a drifter, it means you're in between jobs, but you're actually a professional drifter. How can somebody be a professional homeless person?

I know. Well, in fact, what it means is professionally burning tires off of cars while you're sliding them around. But the truth is, a lot of guys who do that also are drifters in the traditional sense of, like, just drifting from race to race without a real job, except for burning tires off.

Sleeping in a van.

So I was kind of both, actually, in a way.

That's funny. How are things going today?

Great. Things are awesome, man. Just living the dream, you know, it's. It's great to be great to be on your show and great to be in this entertainment car world.

So what brings you from Canada? You grew up in Canada. What brings you from Canada all the way to Los Angeles? Is it tv?

Well, it's actually a good question because, I mean, when I grew up on a farm in Canada, right? And it didn't seem particularly realistic to like, to do anything but kind of stay there.

Play hockey.

Yeah, play hockey like my cousins did and so on. They played some serious hockey, actually, and went pro. I was the crappy hockey player in the family, but I was pretty good at driving cars around the field, so that kind of took off. So I rolled my first pickup truck at age 7. Yeah. And my dad had a trucking company and I learned to. And so then he pointed and said, well, there's the. Welder you better figure out how to fix it. And I was good at racing stuff. I was good at dirt bikes and snowmobiles and then remote control cars actually. And remote control cars took me around the world when I was 12, 13 years old. Raced RC cars in Europe and Japan and all that and won championships with that. So I got into racing again. All I wanted to be was a race car driver or maybe an actor. I don't know where I came up with that, but from a farm in Canada, it didn't seem realistic. So one thing kind of led to another. I got a real job and didn't know that I could still be a race car driver and actor. But I just used the money that I made at the job to buy a better race car and do better and better. And one thing led to another. Got some sponsors, got into rallying, then won a Canadian championship, then won a North American championship. Had to leave the jobs, go full time racing, got into drifting. And then that brought me to Hollywood, hosting TV shows, doing stunts and movies. And now I'm here permanently for nine, 10 years. So it's really, it's been, in a way, if looking back, it totally makes sense. Looking forward, I could have never guessed it's how it would work. It would be like trying to push the chain. Like, I see how it worked to really get here because I really wanted to do things with cars and entertainment. But from where I started, I would have never imagined it.

So when you're seven, what kind of truck is it that you rolled?

That was my dad. So it was an F150.

F150. Was it a stick or an auto?

It was a stick.

Yeah, stick. So it's seven you're driving.

Oh, dude. At. So my dad had, like I said, a trucking company, a moving company. He would insist that all the trailers, the full size trailers, would be parked like 68 inches apart in the yard.

Like just lined up like soldiers.

Yeah. And at 12, I was the guy like with the rigs backing up all the trailers in the yard.

You could do it.

Yeah, Yeah. I drove my first semi at about age 8 or 9.

Yeah, that's, that's great. But it's funny, like, I remember that when I was a kid too, sitting on my grandpa's lap and shifting on the column. And now kids can't even drive a steak.

It's crazy, actually. Yeah. And it's. On the other hand, you know, there's this whole save the manuals movement and like all the sporting guys want modern transmissions are so good. And race cars, my final rally cars are all, you know, sequential or hydraulic. Sequentials. And you know, for either racing or for driving in la, I drive an automatic in la, man.

Oh, you couldn't drive. It would be crazy to have a standard here.

Yeah, exactly.

If you're in traffic.

Yeah, so. So, yeah, I mean, it is a lost art on the one hand. On the other hand, transmissions have gotten so much better that I see why fewer people are doing it. There is maybe a bigger question of like, are people driving less with ride sharing and fractional ownership of cars and all that. For sure. And kids, I mean, I know kids, 16 year old kids who don't want their license, which blows my mind, but I believe it. You know, I can see how it happens.

What, so what, what do you learn by growing up in Canada and on a farm and with. With it sounds like a father that was pretty strict, the word. Or just organized.

Just, you know, business like wanted things done right. Yep.

Had a high moral standard, maybe.

Yep, yep.

What, what do you take from that? Now that applies in la and what are kind of the differences? Like. Right, because I don't know, I have a lot of clients in Canada and it's completely different than it is in.

The US that's actually an interesting question. Nobody's ever asked that. So one of the things I'd say, you know, my first reaction is what do you learn in Canada? You learn to drive in slippery places. So one of the reasons I think I became a rally driver and an off road driver is that like it's.

You're already used to that. Kind of always on the edge.

Yeah, I call it kinetic friction. Instead of like sticking to a road, you're like sliding on a road, not static chaos. Yeah, exactly. So that led me to rally driving basically when I saw that there was a motorsport that was like Dukes of Hazzard on a clock. But I had to get into that. So that's what led me to rally racing. But I grew up on a dirt country road with fields and mud and snow. So I became driver in crappy conditions and good at it. And Canadians are often good rally drivers. Scandinavians, good rally drivers. Because that's what you learn just from how you grow up. Then growing up sort of r and you know, with a family, with a business. And remember my dad said, you know, we're in the movement business, don't just carry those two bags up, carry those four bags up when you're coming out of the car. Okay. So, you know, you learn a certain Discipline. And also.

A bit of a difference is that there's sort of a commutarianism that like we're all in this together. Like, okay, your boys will come over and take the rocks out of my field this month and then in the fall you can use my combine harvester. And you know, it's because if you don't help each other out, you're all going to die.

Right.

So there is that kind of feeling that we're all in together. But I find America more competitive, like more man on man competitive. But I'm learning how to handle that and how to work it.

And so it's more collaborative in Canada.

Maybe here, less competitive.

And that might start even just from the top of the government on down. Right. It's more set up that way than the parliamentary system.

Yeah, possibly. But the truth is America and Canada aren't that different anymore, you know, and.

So I love it when I'm up there and I watch TV and they're arguing about politics because. Because it's fun. Like you think that our politics here are crazy, but it kind of is always. Well, I don't know, I think just the makeup of television and getting ratings. They have to make politics the worst it's ever been. And the sky's falling.

Yeah. Canada's a little bit different in that we have like a national broadcaster in the cbc. Right. And, and they're not really with any political party. So it's confusing to me that you really have to watch your news here with the filters on. Right. Depending on who you're hearing it from.

Yeah. Because there's going to be a left or a right filter on it. Yeah.

Candidates pretty much, you know, you pretty much trust the main networks to pretty much be apolitical, but you know, we all something like 92% people are fired up there.

Oh yeah, well, yeah, they're fired up about stuff lately.

I don't know. Yeah, well, and I haven't been there for 10 years, but. But you remember about 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S. border. So you know, culturally it's not too far away.

No. Yeah. It's just there is a different soul to it. It has a different soul.

Yeah. And I'm proud to be Canadian. Although I gotta say, living in California, man, like between the weather and the business for car people and the entertainment and stuff, like I'm a Canadian at heart, but boy, it's good living here.

So you have, you have two kids?

I do, yeah. Three and five year old girls.

Do you Take them back to Canada in the summer.

We go back, and I don't have much time these days because with my various things going on. But we go back usually for a couple, few weeks, or their mother does, my wife does with the kids, and give them some exposure to, like, lakes in northern Ontario and, you know, just kind of. It's nice.

What do they say?

What do they say? I don't think they see the difference. They see us drinking Tim Hortons coffee, I think, is the main thing. Give up the Starbucks for a while.

And get the Tim Hortons Dunkin Donuts.

Yeah. Oh, it's much more. Don't compare Duncan and Tim. So Tim Horton is a whole different thing. You know, it's.

The feelings for it are different, but it's the same kind of.

Yeah, there's. Well, Tim Hortons is all hockey player and, you know, started that hockey chain talking. You know, it's franchised and. And I'm kind of. I have a secret passion for Tim Hortons.

They're conveniently located.

They're everywhere. So what. What are the biggest takeaways from you, from your upbringing and your. And your parents that you think have helped you navigate things now?

Well, my. So another part of the puzzle is my mother was an academic, which was unusual, sort of on the farm. She was a professor. So. Yeah. So I did well at school. So I did quite a lot of schooling.

Was that important?

On the one hand, yeah. I think I definitely internalized those values. So I did well at school and I actually ended up. We didn't talk about this before, but I did five university degrees, including one from Oxford, so I went all the way with that, too. And I'm kind of like. I'm serially obsessed with things, so I got really good at that, and I did that. And.

And now while you were driving.

Yeah, so I was. I was racing at an amateur level and. And studying at the same time, and I had no money for. So I had, like, a $2,000 race car. Then when I got the good job afterwards, actually, as a lawyer, I became a lawyer in New York City. I suddenly got the money, suddenly bought the better race car, then suddenly did well.

So while you're practicing law.

Yeah, and that didn't last long because they figured pretty soon, like, trying to practice the law and go away on the weekends became a disaster.

Where did you get your law degree?

From McGill in Montreal.

Why law? What. What was your mom teaching?

Law. Law.

So.

Yeah, exactly.

It was. It was something that was familiar.

Yeah. I mean, the thing about if you do, if you study general arts of any kind and you want to keep studying law is a really natural place to go, even if you're not going to practice it because it's.

It applies to everything.

Exactly. It's good to learn. It's rigorous, and it's good signaling. Now, when I'm negotiating a contract for entertainment or whatever, I'm like, okay, I'm not the lawyer on this, but I am a former lawyer. I can read it over and see how I'm either going to get screwed or not get screwed. So, you know what's funny about that.

Is people just don't read contracts. Like, I always have an upper hand in things just because I'll actually read the contract. I don't. I don't have a law degree.

But, you know, you're smart. You don't need one, but you got to. You got to see how it plays out.

We got to read all 19 pages. And I think they purposely make it so you fall asleep halfway through, but you got to.

Well, in some of the language and the apostrophic clauses and stuff, it makes it so that it isn't normally interpretable. But if you have the patience and the smarts and you look at it and what people don't realize is you can mark it up too. Like, oh, yeah, page three. I don't know what this clause here. And you can negotiate those clauses. And once you realize that and that you have that power, then it changes the table a little bit and you can go back to them and say, no, that doesn't work for me. This specific thing doesn't work for me. These words, rather than saying, oh, this region for the franchise or whatever. But if you say, no, delete that line, then they have to figure out the consequences of that. So it enhances. On the other hand, the other good thing about having been a lawyer is it makes me realize the value of good lawyers. And so when you need a good lawyer for something, because so much of the area is so specialized, right? It's like, I don't know anything about real estate or wills and estates or franchising or other stuff. So, you know, I don't like spending money because I know also how lawyers can charge. But I also know that if I need that expertise, it's worth it when the time comes.

Yeah. The thing that I've. So I've learned a couple of things about lawyers in my career. One is that you kind of want to have three, right? You have the one that's the friend that is at a lower rate that does most of your stuff. And then you have the one that specializes, and then you have the one that when they walk in the room, the other side goes, oh, crap.

Yeah, exactly. That's the brand.

And that's the one that's $1,200 an hour. But I've used that one a couple times, and I would say I've never lost with that strategy.

Yeah, that's a great way to think of it, actually. And they're different weapons.

Yeah, no, they're weapons. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. And. And the right letterhead or the right person in the room and going down, like, that's.

So now here's the other. The other thing that happens. So the other thing that I've learned is so that that guy. That is the $300 an hour guy that does a lot of your stuff in court. The lawyers are behind chambers going, so, where's your client at? Where's your. And they, like, kind of are buddies. And then same thing. The specialized guys, they're like. They're. They're talking and you're not in on that. Whatever. That guy. That's $1,200 an hour is in chambers telling the other side, like, hey, my client isn't going to rest until you're dead. Yeah. Like, they understand, like, everything matters. Where these guys are more casual, and it's like, hey, they're fighting it out. But we're lawyers. We're on the same team.

It's a different business in a way. It's a different business model. You know, at the beginning, you're just trying to avoid court costs, and let's negotiate something and cut the losses for everybody and make everybody equally unhappy. Okay. Like, that's. That's that.

Yeah, nobody really wins.

Right. But. But you didn't spend that much money on either the negotiation or the case or whatever. And you all go away and keep.

The year of your life.

Exactly. When you get to this guy, when you get to that, you know, that rifle or whatever that weapon is at 1200 bucks an hour. Okay, well, then it's. It's scorched earth. We're just going to win whatever it takes. And then. Yeah, you're hunkered down in the bunkers, and you're not. You're not hanging out with anybody else.

Yeah, I get it. That's what I've learned. So where. Where do you get Your law degree?

McGill in Montreal. And I practiced.

What do you do at Oxford?

I did a graduate degree in political economy.

What did you Learn by being there.

I learned a lot of interesting things, actually. I learned about signaling and branding. That actually, probably the most important thing is that I went to Oxford. Bill Clinton also went to Oxford. Never finished, never wrote his final exams. Didn't need to. He was a Rhodes scholar and an Oxford.

He also didn't inhale.

Yeah. It's all about branding.

Smoked a lot of weed, but didn't inhale.

Right, right. But he had the branding. Right. I actually did write my. My. My exams and get through. But. But the best thing that happened to me at Oxford, there were lots of great things that happened. I rode really seriously. I was, you know, an athlete there. And. And I learned a lot of other cultural things, wine and culture and so on. But the branding is great, man. And just like having been a lawyer, having had an Oxford degree, you know, having gone to Oxford, people are like, oh, you must be smart.

Gives you credibility.

Yeah. Now, not necessarily in the, you know, car entertainment world. Car service world.

Yeah.

But it's a little weird adjunct thing still, though.

Like, it's a big deal. Not too many people accomplish that. It's something to be very proud of.

Right.

It has a lot of. A lot of weight. Okay, so then you. You. How old are you when you finish your law degree?

27. 28.

So you're 27. What do mom and dad say when you get your law degree?

So they. Well, interesting. My mother, having been a lawyer, actually tried to convince me not to go into law. It's not. It can be a difficult career. And for me, like, in New York, I was sleeping under my desk, like, crossing T's and dot and I's on the appendices of huge contracts and stuff.

Right.

And it was hard, hard work. The law can go in all kinds of directions for how your career goes, whether you hang out a shingle in a little town and you do people's rules on the states and remember the kind of $300, $150 an hour guy.

Yeah.

And I was kind of over on the weaponized end in New York with big firm and, you know, lots of foot soldiers and stuff.

But you're at the bottom of that.

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, sort of bottom. But I also had a business degree, so I came in a little higher and I could negotiate a bit, but it was hard work. And. And I realized not only was the racing going well, and I. Once I was getting the money, I bought, like, a $40,000 race car and suddenly started winning races, and things got better and better. And then I just. I Just realized that I was. I would be dead. Like, I'd be dead in five years just because I couldn't be there.

So you. You come out and you have your law degree. Parents aren't proud of you or they are proud of you.

I'm really lucky. My parents have always been proud of me. Okay. Yeah. So.

And then the first job you get, what are you making a year as a lawyer?

150 grand.

150 grand. And what were you making before that?

Like, whatever I did on. I was a cable guy in college. I was like, the guy.

And you were spending all that on racing.

And so now all of a sudden you're making 150.

But how much is it all in racing?

How many hours a week are you working?

60 easy. 70 sometimes.

So then how do you. How, even though now you have the money, how do you balance the time to go race?

That was the brutal thing. I would be like. I'd be like, trying to wrap up everything on a Friday to get out or get to the airport or get out of town to do the race. It just became. Eventually my work started suffering, and I don't think I was ever the best lawyer because I only had my heart half in it anyway. But it was giving me the money to do racing. And then when I was racing, I realized. When I realized I was good, I knew I was good at it when I had the $2,000 car. But when I had the $40,000 car and suddenly won the national championship, I'm like, okay, I can do this. And I told him at the law firm, I'm. I remember, like, because the law firm has a brochure, right, that they give out to people every year to try to attract students to come in and commit to the law firm for their next job, right? For their first job, right? And so we take them out to lunch at Nobu and all this fancy stuff, right? And like, you know, sell them the devil's handcuffs, you know, oh, it's going to be great. We do this all the time. And some. Some of them do. I'm not. I'm not going to throw all law firms under the bus, but they would make a brochure of, like, the people in the law firm who are so cool, right? And it'd be like, here's the guy who surfs, gets up four in the morning, goes, surfs in Brooklyn. And he comes and he's a lawyer the rest of the day, right?

Propagand.

Exactly. And. But. But the. The absolute rule is once you Made the brochure, you'd be out within a year.

Really?

Yeah. Because you were just too cool.

So when you made the brochure, you.

Know, he's like, I'm holding my helmet. This guy races on the weekend. And I'm like, I'm trying to look through the brochure and say it's not going to be possible.

That's funny. Okay, so then that's the thing though, like kids coming up that, that are into racing. The, the constraint is money.

Yeah.

You fix the constraint of money by trading time. And so then what did you learn about the value of your time and the balance of money and time? Because I think everybody struggles with that. Right. Like people say like work life balance. And I always say like there's no such thing for people that are obsessed with accomplishing something.

I think, I think I sometimes wonder like I had to make that money to get to that level of racing. Right. I wonder if I had just focused only on the racing. Right. And not the, not the school, not the law, could I have found other ways to unlock enough money to become successful in racing earlier or as successful? I don't know the answer to that. Probably. I can't Monday morning quarterback this because.

Right.

You can't really get the counterfactual. But it worked for me to get, get the money to sort of self fund and, and actually my parents supported whatever they could. But no, I didn't have rich, you know, those kind of. But parents. Right. And it helped me get over the line and it also, it helped me. It helped me with two things. It helped me all the way along to negotiate my own contracts or to come in from motorsports from the side.

Even though my heart was in it and I was committed to it. And once I quit my other job, I realized I really had to commit to it. I had other skills and other things that I could bring in sideways. So it differentiated me from the other people who were also racers. So for example, I can talk about cars and I can drive them. Right. That got me into car entertainment entirely. Right.

Well also didn't you have the business side too? Because don't a lot of like I know this from the music business is the best guitar players are the best drummers don't understand. Or artists. Right. Like painters or whatever they. The part they're missing is marketing and the business. It's not talent.

Right.

Like, and so did you have an advantage there because you read so many contracts and. Well, I understood the flow of money.

I'd like to think I Am like the best rally racer in North America, but probably I'm one of 10, 20, 50, 100 guys. They're really good drivers, right? But of those guys, how many of them can also talk about what's going on or how many of them can deal with the business of what's going on, that's a lot fewer guys. So once you take two different areas, disparate areas, and meld them together, then you're more weaponized, to use the analogy again, but you're able to get further. So the first thing that happened was when I left the law, I realized I could drive cars and I could talk about them and I could do the business of them. And so that got me into the car entertainment world and helped me negotiate contracts, get better sponsorship deals, and then it's continued to serve me going forward. Is that the only way to do it? No. I would tell my kids or other kids out there, if you can be passionate about your main thing and pursue it and push hard for it, but if you can develop adjunct skills or things that are going to help you differentiate yourself from all the pool that you're competing against, that's going to help. And I think that's what I've been.

Lucky to have if I wanted to start today. And let's just, let's assume I'm a good driver. I'm not, but let's just give me that, that I'm a good driver. How much is it going to cost me to win today? Car crew, whatever it takes. How much would it cost me for a year?

So that's a great question. And it depends on the motorsport. Um, one of the reasons I got, I mean, I got involved in rallying because I love the idea of rallying. Like, like the adventure of it sliding through the forest, day, night, winter, summer, tarmac, gravel, whatever, right? Like we say, real cars, real roads, real fast. It's also probably one of the most accessible motorsports because they use streetcars. So you can take an old VW Golf and as I did in the early days, and weld the cage in it yourself and beef it up and put some beefier struts in and five grand in, you got a legal, competitive car, right? How much does it cost you to run that thing? The car destroys itself every race, even if you drive well, because you're shooting gravel on it sliding sideways, you know, tipping it up on its side. So how much do you need to be an, an amateur or a lower level regional competitor? Not that much. I, at the national level was easily burning 400 grand a year sponsor money to win national championships. Because of the costs of transporting and Mechanics, we have six of six crew guys who are there all the time. But 400 grand in a NASCAR deal won't get you. I mean, they'll hire you, start line, right?

No, I'm just saying in rally. So could I do it today for 400 grand?

Yeah. I'm not sure you'd win the championship, but you probably, if you're a good enough driver, you'd be on the podium.

What would it cost to win the championship?

Well, right now. So I drove for Mitsubishi for a lot of years and then Ford Scion for a while. Right now the only game in town is Subaru, and they're spending a good amount of money, half a year. So I don't know. I think if you gave a great driver 500 grand in a competitive car built right, I think that they could possibly win.

So it's about half a million bucks.

Yeah. But Subaru has a compliment of a couple of great drivers and a almost perfect team. So you have a hard time taking that down.

How much do the drivers make?

So if you're spending 500 grand on the car and the crew and the whole thing, how much do you make?

So I never made so much. I never. I shouldn't say that in the days that I owned the team, I never made money as a driver. I just like, got sponsors in and tried to lose less money. Like whatever this, whatever our racing cost. If there was stuff left over with from the sponsorship money, that was our income. Right. And I can't say that it was well planned. Right. But I competed at the X Games five times, won a medal there once, flipped end over end there once. Right. But you know, we would do anything to beat the X Games. They only invited 12 of us. You know, we're doing these improbable things. The first 5X games are me, Travis Pastrana, Ken Block and Tanner Faust. Right. So we were there in the dream days and we.

What are you guys doing there? Is it rally or rally?

Yeah, rally racing and rallycross. So just a closed course. We did it first down at the Staples center or at the. Yeah, with the StubHub now. Right, center. And then we came.

I remember that. How many years ago was that?

2006 was the first year.

Yeah, I remember that down here.

Then we came to the Coliseum, did it there, and basically we made these small courses of like, us, head to head, crossover jumps and all these things to see who got to the finish line. First and it was gnarly.

Like they just upped it every year. Just got. First year we had like a little on Travis Pastor.

Well, blame or thank because Travis became a friend of mine. He taught me to backflip. I backflipped into his foam pit in. In Maryland. And he's a great, great guy and like high energy and super positive and. And people think he's missing a gene that like, you know, he doesn't have self preservation. But the truth is he just psychs himself up. His dad's a military dad. He's like, you got this. And Travis is the ultimate. You got this man. And. And he infuses on everybody around him. So we did a lot of, you know, you got this basically.

Okay, so how does he teach you to flip the car?

So you.

So what's that conversation like you and Travis are aware when this. So it comes up. Are you texting each other what happens?

No, I was staying at his house and.

And where's his house at Maryland. Okay, so you're at his house. Why?

Because we were in that world and I think the do games were on or something and we were just down. Because you're an itinerant. Like you're a drifter, but you're a racer. We'd already done the X Games together. We knew each other from rallying and so we came together.

He's got a huge house there, like a farm.

It's a normal. It's kind of a compound. But what he does have is a big. I'm not sure he still live in the same place, but he's got a big warehouse shop and you sign a waiver as you go in and there's a box of waivers of all the most famous X Games people you know that have all signed their lives away because anything could happen. It's like a climbing wall with no ropes and you just fall back into the foam pit and you know, it's fun. Awesome. But he's also got a foam pit outside. And we woke up one morning and he slapped me in the back and said, hey, so you're going to back the motorcycle, right? Like I got to leave today.

Oh, it's a motorcycle, not a car, right?

Motorcycle.

Yeah.

Yeah. So. And I mean I can talk you through the whole thing. It's pretty.

He's like, okay, I'm curious because how much of that is faith?

How much was faith? Faith?

Yeah, like a leap of faith. Because at some point you like the thing that I feel and I've never done it But I feel like at some point you're all in or you can't do it because if you don't go for it, you can't half. Like I want one time a friend who used to run a racing team for Yamaha and him and I were partners, weren't a business. He bought me a Honda two stroke, like this crazy dirt bike, right? And I went out to, because here in Southern California, out Temecula and all that, there's all these crazy tracks. The thing I learned right away just going over the jumps is you can't, you can't go conservative. You're either going for the jump or you're not. The way they're built here. And I just, I just instantly said I'm not into the, into this because the first one I did, I like hit my head on the, on the bar. And like I was like, yeah, I'm too old, you know, I was 30 at the time when I'm too old to learn how to dirt back.

So.

How much of it is commitment?

Two insights there. One is, is that it is commitment, like, and that's not just riding a motorcycle, but it's rally racing. It's probably business. It's everything. Like you gotta, you gotta, in rallying, if you're like timid or you don't chuck the car in, it doesn't work right. Like you have to chuck it in and chase it, right? And you have to know what you're doing. But if you're, if you're just like pussyfooting around, A, you'll be slow, but B, you're more likely to crash because you're not working the car, right? Goes. Happens with dirt bikes, happens with jumps too. And speaking about being, you know, older, the best way to get up to the edge of the envelope is to start so young. It's like skiers, young skiers that they fall down, it doesn't matter, they fall back up, you know, it's like weevils fall over and up, right? And once you've done that for 20 years and done your 10,000 Malcolm Gladwell hours of figuring out how to do something, then it's just a natural. Like you don't, you don't make the same mistakes that a 30 year old getting on a dirt bike or getting on skis.

So if I'm interpreting this right, is what you're saying is it would be way different for me in that situation talking to Travis than for you, because you were already used to, you already were conditioned that you're going to Go full throttle and you're going to do it, right?

Well, the funny thing is I did exactly what he told me, which is part of the story. So I grew up, like I say, at 7, I rolled a truck. I was also riding dirt bikes and messing around, so I'm used to that world. So it wasn't too much of a stretch for me to do the other sort of stuff, like tricks. I never got into motocross tricks, but he said, okay, cp, you're going to backflip the bike. And he said, and I'm smart enough I can listen to somebody. This guy invented backflipping motorcycles, right? So he's like, okay, cp, it's really easy. Just wide open, top of second gear, lean back as far as you can and never let go of the bike. I can do that. Lean back as far as you can.

Okay, so second gear, wide open.

Wide open from the top of his driveway up to a quarter pipe and into a foam pit.

And just lean back as far as.

You can, Never let go of the bike. Okay, so.

And so in that moment, you're like, I can do that.

Totally. And he. And he gets on the bike and it's just like they use like a 110 kind of pit bike just to practice it. Right. So I'm like, great. He does it, like, literally. He's got a red Bull hat on and he's like flying upside down past me. And he's like, just like this ACP seat. And he lands on the wheels right into the foam pit. No problem. Gets plucked out by the little crane. Now, the previous day, I think it was Andy Bell from Ogio. There's a tendency when you compress on the ramp to compress to your stronger side. And so people tend to tweak, right? Because most people are right handed. And so there was a big sign at the top of the ramp that said no right turn because he had the previous day tweaked off and missed the foam pit and landed on the Bobcat, which is a bad direction to go.

And how did that.

It went. Landed with. I think it was. I don't know if it was an airlift or a. Or a hot. Just a normal ambulance. He's got a pad there to land a helicopter at because it happens there. Yeah. So.

So in the thought process of making the foam pit bigger and everything, there's.

One guy, street bike, Tommy overshot, moving the ramp to the left, you think?

But so that had happened the day before.

The day before.

And you were there.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, wait so the day before somebody gets airlifted out, you don't know, or ambulance airlifted out, you wake up the next morning, Travis is like, today you're going to do a backflip. And no. Doesn't phase you whatsoever.

That's not going to be me.

Okay. And so the, the secret is, how do you keep that from happening?

Well. Well, there's a sign, no right turn. So you say, okay. Okay. Lean back as far as you can. Don't let go the bike and don't turn right. Okay, I can do that. That's another thing, like, I think for any racing, but you could say this for business. I think you have to just believe that. You have to believe in yourself and believe that. When I go past a crashed race car or rally car, I'd be like, oh, that guy screwed up. That's not going to be me. Doesn't make me lift in the next corner because that guy screwed up, not me. So you have to have a little bit of a lack of imagination or. I don't know.

I think, I think.

That happens in life, too.

It's funny. Have you ever heard of Tim Larkin?

Know the name.

So he. Great guy, written a bunch of great books.

Just an amazing guy. But. But I. He teaches self defense and he's just kind of a badass. But he.

I.

The first time I saw him speak, actually, he did this thing in front of the room where he. He asked for two volunteers and he. He has one person get on all fours on the floor and then he has another person standing above them that's gonna kick him in the ribs. And then he asked the audience the question, like, so what would you do? And then everybody in the audience is like, well, I would drop to the floor, I would roll or whatever. And he's like, why, why do you assume you're the person on the floor? And so I think in life, like a lot of people just assume they're the hunted.

Yeah.

And not the hunter.

That's a good point.

And. And I think that carries through business, through motorsports, through anything, is why do you assume you're the one in the weaker position?

Totally agree.

It's not a very masculine alpha mindset.

Totally agree. And look, in a lot of ways, I'm not that alpha masculine guy too. I wasn't, you know, the tough kid in school or whatever. I was kind of the smart kid, but, you know, that got me over the line. And I will tell you to confirm your hypothesis, like at the Baja 1000, most. Not all. Most of the top guys A lot of them are big business guys. They got casinos, they got construction companies that allows them to have the money to buy the million dollar trophy trucks, but they're also those guys. They're like, when they're going 100 miles an hour through the desert. Yeah. They're like. And they're doing that to take their minds off the business that they're where they're hunting people, too. But when they're 100 miles an hour across the desert in a million dollar truck, they're like, I'm the guy, man. I'm the guy. And I'll tell you what, when I'm behind the wheel, like, the reason that I'm sending tingles up my spine just thinking of the feeling of being there, being behind the wheel with the gear on and, like seeing the green light in a rally route. I am the guy, man. Like, that's how you win. That's how you.

Yeah, I love that. Like, when you go buy a car that crashed, you're like, that's not me. Yeah, he messed up. Like, I'm not gonna mess up. That's because that feeds your subconscious. Like, it feeds like that context and that perspective drives. Like there is this weird higher thing. We don't understand that you. You do kind of like set. Set the. The path, right?

You program your own brain, man. Yeah, it's like, it's funny you should mention this. Like, when I was a kid, I remember I still carry it in my wallet. I don't have it right with me now, but I wrote a poem of the man who thinks he can. I read on Reddit somewhere, right? It's like, you know, basically, life's games don't always go to the stronger, faster man. Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can send sense of my spine, too. That's. That's how I want to race, man.

How old were you?

I think I discovered that poem when I was like 12 or something. And I wrote out longhand and folded up in my wallet and pretty much had it in my wallet my whole life.

Yeah. That's amazing. Okay, so you're. So you're going to do the ramp, and Travis does it and he shows you, and you're sitting there and so you see him do it and then what do you. Do you remember what you observed from him doing it versus what he told you to do? Like, did he do exactly what he told you to do?

Well, it's a little hard to say. It's a little hard to put yourself on the bike while he's doing. You're watching. But I watched him do it. And I mean, I'd watched him do it a thousand times times already. Like, we'd done it. We'd done the X Game several times together already. And he would not only compete in rally and rallycross, but he. He'd also do best trick and freestyle and all that, right? And so we'd seen him, man, I saw him. I saw him have some bad crashes, too, in the day. But. But, you know, it's. He's so natural on the bike. He's also a big guy, fortunately. Like, I'm six four, he's six one or something, which is unusual in that sport. So, you know, it's. He's lanky and. And. But he did on the bike and just landed like, on butter. And I thought, well, I can do that. He can do it. I can do it. I mean, he still Travis, but I can do it. So I got on the top of the bike, and all I wore was a helmet and, like, short, you know, just in shorts and sneakers or whatever. And go to the top of the ramp, and I'm like, all right, wide open second. Lean back as far as you can. Don't let go of the bike. And I'm just about to hit the ramp, and Travis runs out in front of me waving his hands like, acp, acp. Stop, man. Not that we don't think this is going to go perfectly, but we want to go get the video camera. So he gets on the bike because they were doing nitro circus with time, right? Goes up, gets the camera, comes back down. Okay, okay, okay, Go. Sorry, man. And he's operating the camera. It's like, still a video camera, I think. And I got back on the bike and top of the driveway and come down. And now I'm six four, and I got 37 inch arms, right? So I'm long, and I'm leaning back so far on this 110 bike that I'm like, my hips are, like, behind the rear fender. Like, the front's almost off the ground already, right? I'm, like, riding it like that. And in retrospect, that wasn't how Travis wrote it, but I get up to the top of the ramp, and I do a perfect backflip straight up, and we come back down on the edge of the ramp. The bike lands on me, and we slide back down the ramp like Wile E. Coyote, like, right? Really? Totally. And it land on my leg. My leg eventually turned black from my hip to my Ankle. I had a good height, and it came down, and the bike land on me. I slid back down. Travis runs up to me.

He's like, acp, I can't believe I've.

Never seen anybody do that, like, straight up. Don't lean that far back.

Okay? So then I go to get back, like, limp back on the bike. He's like, you're gonna do it again? Like, of course I'm gonna do it again. You know, I'm gonna lean not so far back now, but now I don't know how far. Like, some lean some far back. Like, you know, a bit far back. Get up to the top of the ramp. It's the same kind of thing. I'm like, I got my butt out leaning far back. Go up to the top of the ramp. Bike flips out from under me. I go face first into the foam pit, face down. Bike lands on my back. Still running. Fuel running out. I'm like whiskey throttled wide open with the bike on my back. And Travis jumps into the foam. Turns out the bike says, acp, I can't believe you didn't let go of the bike.

You only told me two things, man.

So then he's like. And so then there was a dude there named. They called him Haterade. He was from Tennessee. He had a big old bat, and he was one of the characters on Natural Circus. He's like, acp, you're so stupid. It's not like this. It's like this. Oh, shit. And I go on the bike, stuck it, like, just third drive up and land on the wheels.

Wait, so the thing lands on your leg, lands on your back, and you're not hurt?

I was hurt, but I got back on. I had to do it, man. I had to stick it.

That is not me.

And then. And then Travis, he picked me out with the bobcat. He's like, acp, that was awesome. You got so much English on that. You flipped so hard, man.

Just go in third gear.

You'll do a double. Let's go. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna call it there, man. I can already feel my leg, Drobin. And I didn't do a double.

So then the leg turns black and blue.

Yeah, I had to race the next week.

I had.

They had to, like, wheel me around and put me in the race car.

Really?

Yeah. It was gnarly. I couldn't articulate my ankle.

That's funny.

That's a side story. But. But it's. You know, I was. I'm glad I lived that culture. I'm glad I went through it. And especially those early X Games days when we were like you asked. Blame Travis Pastrana. We the second year we did it, we did the proof of concept First X Games 2006, then we came back in 2007. They said, okay, we gotta, we gotta up the ante. Right. So they had a two story high ramp to ramp jump. Right. And one car jumps over another car.

Yeah.

And, and like we're rally racers and there's like, we're. And Travis is the next Games guy. But we're standing, I remember the edge of the ramp like five or six of us going holy crap. Like the other side's 70ft away and it's a, you know, one and a half story drop. We've never done this before but now I do movie stunts and stuff and it's the same feeling like, well, we've never done it before but you know, math is about right. 11 and a half degrees BE. What's it going to be? We'll get some radar guns on it and what are you going to do? Going to do it?

Yeah. I don't know. There's something that I wasn't given which is that like, I don't know, I can do it in business, but I don't, I don't. Same thing when it's physical. It's different for me. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, it's the same.

But I envy it for sure. I do. I just, I'm never that guy to swim with sharks or like parachute or that sort.

I'm in my mid-40s now. I'm not, I'm not doing so much shark swimming myself.

Do you think about your kids now when you do stuff like that?

It's funny, when I first had kids I, I don't know if Ken Block was explicitly trying to psych me out, but I had my first kid and I'm still racing, I guess against him or one of his teammates or something. And I just had the kid and I think it was a co driver, maybe him came up and said hey, it must be nice thinking about that kid at home or anything. Like, you know, must be that little baby back at home. Like are you seriously trying to mess with my head right now? Right. But it didn't slow me down. I don't know if Ken Block was explicitly trying to psych me out, but I had my first kid and I'm still racing, I guess against him or one of his teammates or something. And I just had the kid and I think it was a co driver, maybe him came up and said, hey, it must be nice thinking about that kid at home or anything. Like, you know, must be have that little baby back at home. Like, are you seriously trying to mess with my head right now? Right. But it didn't slow me down initially. I don't think it ever slowed me down. But once they developed personalities and I developed a really close relationship with them. Now to go back racing like I used to race, like out on the ragged edge.

I don't know, but I wonder if I do know. I had a race. I did do a race earlier this year and we were doing pretty well, but a few other things were messed up. The setup of the car wasn't right. The tires were initially. I don't think it ever slowed me down. But once they developed personalities and I developed a really close relationship with them. Now to go back racing like I used to race, like out on the ragged edge.

I don't know, but I wonder if I do know. I had a race. I did do a race earlier this year and we were doing pretty well, but a few other things were messed up. The setup of the car wasn't right, the tires weren't right. We were sort of on the podium, Ish. But there was no stakes in it. And.

I realized, look, if think about rallies, you go off the road and get a tree through the car, stuff can happen that you don't expect, right? And because there were no stakes in it, I just, I had to say, look, I don't think I'm do that as much anymore just because I got. It's not just responsibilities, but I got right. We were sort of on the podium, ish, but there was no stakes in it. And.

I realized, look, if think about rallies, you go off the road and get a tree through the car, stuff can happen you don't expect, right? And because there were no stakes in it, I just, I. I had to say, look, I don't even do that as much anymore just because I got. It's not just responsibilities, but I got actually things that I just want to make sure I'm around for, you know.

And when I just changes your desires, right? You don't, you don't need that now because you have this right where before you needed that actually things that I.

Just want to make sure I'm around for, you know, and when, when I.

Just changes your desires, right? You don't, you don't need that now because you have this right where before.

You needed that when the Ford executives were, you know, waiting at the podium to see how, you know, where we'd finish, like okay, well when the Ford executives were, you know, waiting at the podium to see how, you know, where we'd finish, like okay, well that's why I'm here.

Yeah.

Right. And you know, you don't have kids at home or whatever and you can do it with kids. It's just, you know, you have to. And plenty of people do plenty of off road racers. Plenty of racers I know are like top of the game with young kids. Right. But it's, you know, those kids and those families understand that that's their careers. I got, I got, I've had a great career in racing. I still race occasionally but my career has moved on into the, the movie stunts and entertainment and other stuff now too. So I think that it's, it's been great. And I'm, I'm just, you're, you're catching me at the pivot point of like taking a few fewer risks.

Yeah, but it makes sense. I mean it's just, you know, time. So what, how do you get the, the Discovery TV show? Like what is that process that you end up.

Yeah.

Hosting.

And so what actually happened there is when I left the law firm and decided to go racing full time, I wasn't yet fully employed. Right. Because now I've left a full to real full time job to go racing which was a, you know, a part good part time job and a big commitment, but I suddenly had a little time and.

Are you single?

Yeah, well, girlfriend. But you know, such as it is when you're that age. And so I saw a casting notice for like can you. One of those early reality shows. Can you build a car in three days? I'm a pretty good mechanic, but I had a crew of like, you know, four, five, six guys who had paid too little for so long because they were just kind of, they bought into my project and like thought I was the guy and they're going to support my car. They're great guys and I thought, well, I'd like to pay them back. Maybe I can get them on this TV show. They could be a team to build a car on a TV show. Right. So I called the production company and said, hey, I got these guys, they're super mechanics, they're rally guys, they can build anything like they can. I once came into a service area in the middle of working winter in the middle of Quebec with the whole front corner of the car ripped off. And I radioed Ahead and said, hey, we're going to. We're missing the whole front strut. Like get, get it ready. And they're like oh gee. So we came in though, in 18 minutes they replaced the strut, the strut tower, the caliper, you know, re bled the system, the axle. 18 minutes welding upside down in the snow. Right. Good mechanics. So I'm like, I get them on the show, they build good cars. So, so I call the production company and said, hey, I got these guys, I'd like to pitch them for your show. Can they get in the. You know, I'll have them reach out to you individually, but I want to put them out there for you. They're like, okay, cool. And we talked for a little while and then I said, but who is going to. When some mechanic says yeah, we're putting 410s in it. Well, who's going to say. So you're changing the rear axle gearing ratio so the car accelerates faster. Right. And they're like, I don't know, you want to do that? So I said well maybe. And so I went in and auditioned for hosting it and I got to host it. That's in 2004 in Canada. A national show on Global TV called War of the Wheels. Early reality car build shows. Right. And I did host that and it made me realize that I could race cars. Suddenly I wasn't a lawyer, I was racing cars and I was hosting a TV show. And then I realized that it wasn't rocket science and I could talk about the cars and do exactly what they needed, which was to translate mechanic to human. Right.

So now do they pay you well for that?

Yeah, they thought they paid me. It blew my mind. I got in the actors union and.

Then, and then did. So then did your crew get paid well too?

They got reason. They got a stipend for being on the show. Right. But I was in all the episodes. They were in one episode. Right. And they, they.

How long did it take you to film it? Like how many months?

I filmed in Hamilton, Ontario and it took, I don't know, a couple months, three months. And I then, because of the business and the law stuff, I ended up working on some of their contracts and then I did their trade outs and brought in. I said well, I'll set up the shop. And I got the, you know, the gas company, the to. To supply the welding stuff. We got all the welders in for free. And you know, I set up all that stuff and then sold it off afterwards and, and got into kind of business of it. And then around that time, 2004, keep in mind, my racing was going better. 26 the X Games start. Come out to do the X Games. And I met some of the executives who were then doing. Well, no, then I guess I got cast on that Discovery show, following on the first Discovery show. And then I met some. The same executives were doing Top Gear. And you meet people and you're not. If you're not an asshole and you do a good job, you meet some people, you tend to get the next job. That's what I always say. Like, I didn't kill Charlize Theron on Atomic Blonde. She was in my car. I'm driving her around stunts. And then she goes on to executive produce a show on Netflix. And I'm the stunt coordinator of Hyperdrive, which is on Netflix right now. So I always say that as long as you do good work and you get along with people, then you get to do the next gig. And that's. That's how that kind of starts.

No way that that ties back to your upbringing. What's that on the farm? Is there any way that that ties back?

Yeah, I think so. Well, look, I think, I think taking pride in your individual, like the job at hand. Right. And like knowing that, that it's important to do it. Right. Whatever it is. Like.

But isn't there a sense there? Like, because I. I mean, I kind of have a little familiarity with this is like you were saying, like, you go move the rocks from their pasture and then they let you borrow the tractor or whatever. When you're removing the rocks, you have to do it. Well, you can't.

Can't leave a few rocks in there.

Because the, the trade.

Yeah.

The trades over time isn't there kind of.

You're right.

You're doing parallels there. Or having problems. Pride in being. Being more than what the average person is. Giving a little bit more to the project, even though it's thankless at the time. Maybe.

Yeah, it's a good way to put it. I mean, you know, there's nothing better than in a, you know, rural community being known as. Well, he's a good man.

Yeah.

You know, like, okay, you can trust him. Right. And then who are you going to hire to, you know, do the next thing or elect for mayor or whatever? Well, he's a good man, you know, and you only develop that reputation by lots of little, little things.

And so same thing in Hollywood, right? Same thing, oddly.

Like.

But people show up in their prima donnas, they think they're stars.

And it's a small community in Hollywood.

Yeah.

I mean, the stunt community. And in, in the, in the executive, in the producing community, it's actually like, I don't know how many. There's a few thousand or some thousands of people. But you develop reputations and you know, and maybe you don't know that guy, but you know, somebody knows that guy and say, oh, you guys weren't showing. Hey, what did you think of working with him? Like, oh, he's a bit of a. Whatever.

Yeah.

And you can corner yourself or, or succeed.

Yeah, that's. That's a lifelong thing. Right. Value. My grandpa would always say, give people more than what they pay you for and you'll never worry about anything. Like, if you always give people more value than what they pay you for.

Exactly.

You'll. You'll be well.

Plus you can go to your own deathbed saying, well, maybe I didn't always get paid for every bit of that work, but I did the right thing. You feel good about it.

So what. What are the measurables of the first show in Canada? Like, are they tracking ratings like you did one season or how many seasons?

It was only one season and it did well. But the, you know what happens in these shows. Sometimes the executive at the network changes over and it's not their baby. And it kind of got orphaned and it was fine. I'm still proud of it. It still plays. I still get residuals from it. It's playing in like, Israel and the Netherlands and.

Oh, really?

It's 15 years old. It's great.

Awesome. So then what's the next show that you get?

That was the Discovery show, Ultimate Car Build Off. I was hosting some. I was hosting some.

Racing shows. I would also be the guy in the field, like races that I wasn't doing adjunct series or whatever. I'd host those and Speed Vision and when I was live, Speed tv and I felt more and more experience. I was pretty. I look back at those early shows and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe anybody would watch this. But, you know, I get better. Like anything, you get better. And I got better at later shows and still getting better, I hope. And. And the Discovery show introduced me to Chip Foose and I met lots of other neat people and. And we built. That was going places where. When challenging shops to turn cars into crazy things like turning cars into an airplane or into a submarine. And then so I saw and met some great fabricators who became great friends and then got on my Race team or I got involved with some other way. Some of those guys from that original 2004 show. A guy from that original 2004 show I hired as a co. Basically a co stunt coordinator on that Netflix show like last year, 15 years later, because he was a good guy on the show, did good work, we got along, we moved forward together. A couple of guys from that show I still work with. So what was the point of the story? Oh, how did one thing lead to another? I don't know. Yeah, you had had to meet kind of the right people and then they'd look at your work and say, well, try the show then.

Is there ever a moment in any of that from like when you, you know, quit law to. To there where you were faced with quitting or giving up or like, yeah, Crossroads, sure. Tell me about that.

Oh, man, I remember 2005. I just won the championship, but there weren't enough sponsors around. And almost immediately I'm like, oh gosh, am I going to have to go back to the law?

But I stuck it out, my team stuck with me, got in. I remember Mitsubishi Canada. We got a call. I thought it was going to be our last race in Mitsubishi Canada. I'll give you two stories. Mitsubishi Canada. I called and said, hey, I think we found a way to get the dealer fund, the dealer marketing fund. I think we can allot some of that to you. And we're like, oh gosh, that'd be great. Like we think we knew $50,000. And I like my, my then girlfriend and I cried like it was to get 50 grand from a manufacturer was like, just blew our minds and changed our trajectory. Right. And so then we were able to like fix the car up a little bit more, get to the next two races. And that one thing led to another and that allowed us to get into the US to do the 2006. I think we found a way to get the dealer fund, the dealer marketing fund. I think we can allot some of that to you. And we're like, oh gosh, that'd be great. Like we think we do $50,000. And I like my, my then girlfriend and I cried like it was to get 50 grand from a manufacturer was like, just blew our minds and changed our trajectory. Right. And so then we were able to like fix the car up a little bit more. The early 2006 year. I won the first race in the US that year. And then, then fast forward a couple of races and you had to qualify for the X Games the first time. They'd chosen some people, but others had to qualify and talk about being in the zone or just being the guy. I was in a position in important race in July in Maine, the New England Forest Rally. Get to the next two races. And that one thing led to another. And that allowed us to get into the US to do the 2006, the early 2006 year. I won the first race in the US that year. And then then fast forward a couple of races and you had to qualify for the X Games the first time. They'd chosen some people, but others had to qualify and talk about being in the zone or just being the guy. It was the last qualifier for the first X Games. We knew the X Games was going to happen. We knew it was going to be huge, right? But I was out of money by now. That $50,000 and I burned off and just on a shoestring and we were in second place or something overall. That would have qualified us for the X Games. And then I'm coming out through the rally stage and we have a carbon fiber hood on the car and one of the hood pins comes off. And now we're going 90 miles an hour and the whole hood starts. I was in a position in important race in July in Maine, the New England Forest Rally. It was the last qualifier for the first X Games. We knew the X Games were going to happen. We knew it was going to be huge. But I was out of money by now. That $50,000 and I burned off and just on a shoestring and we were in second place or something overall. That would have qualified us for the X Games. And then I'm coming out through the rally stage and starting to flap like this, like this, like this. And I'm like, just don't like go whap. The hood flips back. You can't see anything, right? And except for a little crack in the bottom. 11 miles to go. And I remember my coder and I both like slammed our heads down and tried to see and bonked our helmets together. And if I was on a flat road or going uphill, I could see the road. But if I was going downhill, he couldn't see anything at all. But he was calling notes to me and kept on. We have a carbon fiber hood on the car and one of the hood pins comes off. And now we're going 90 miles an hour and the whole hood's starting to flap like this, like this, like this. And I'm like, just don't go whap. The hood flips back. You can't see anything. Right. And except for a little crack in the bottom. 11 miles to go. And I remember my coder and I both like slammed our heads down to try to see and bonked our helmets together. And if I was on a flat road or going, we lost like on 11 miles, we lost something like 45 seconds, which is almost nothing considering we couldn't see. And then we get back to the service area and kick out the windshield. My guys found a. My guys found a spectator's car that had the same windshield in it and cut out the windshield and put that windshield in our car. But now we're like. It looked like we weren't going to qualify. We were off out of the zone. And so I just, I was in a point uphill. I could see the road, but if I was going downhill, he couldn't see anything at all. But he was calling notes to me and kept on. We lost like on 11 miles, we lost something like 45 seconds, which is almost nothing considering we couldn't see. And then we get back to the service area and kick out the windshield. My guys found a. My guys found a spectator's car that had the same windshield in it and cut out the windshield and put that windshield right. And this is how really you have to be a faster ally racer. I was ready to walk away from a steaming pile metal in the woods. This was going to be my last race ever. Ever. If I didn't qualify and we just went into another zone, actually I was behind Ken Block on that on one of those stages. I don't know if we had two minute gaps or one minute gap. I caught him. So you made a minute on somebody on a stage and I made another minute and I was just building our car. But now we're like. It looked like we weren't going to qualify. We were off out of the zone. And so I just, I was at a point where I. And this is how really you have to be a faster alley racer. I was ready to walk away from a steaming pile of metal in the woods. This was going to be my last race ever. Ever. And. And if I didn't qualify and we just went into another zone, like, I was actually, I was behind Ken Block on that in one of those stages. And if we had two minutes, I was crazy in the zone. I was. It just nothing mattered except getting over the finish line. And I qualified for that first X Games by 6 seconds. And that changed everything because now I was in the X Games and now I was able to get More sponsorship and then we got, we got, we got a board game company to sponsor us then and then that got us to the X Games and then a big Mitsubishi aftermarket shop. After one minute gap I caught him. And so you made a minute on somebody on a stage and I made another minute and I was just little boy racing sponsors that got us the hauler and then suddenly we had more visibility and then we got more and more. Got Oakley and we got. Took off from there and got an energy drink, got NOS energy and it's that fork in the road. I was crazy in the zone. I was. It just nothing mattered except getting over the finish line and I qualified. It was like it took that level of commitment, but did I think it was over. Like when that hood flipped up, I'm like for that first X Games by 6 seconds. And that changed everything because now I was in the X Games and now I was able to get more sponsorship and then we got, we got, we got a board game company. I guess I never accepted it was over. Like you just never accept it. You just keep fighting. And I guess if we had run out of money or if it hadn't worked, maybe I, maybe I would have had to eventually accept it, but I just never did. And that kind of pigheadedness just meant that it finally all worked. And I burned people along the way. Man. I worked guys hard and didn't pay them enough and tried did whatever I could and was good to them as a person. But they'd sacrificed their own personal to sponsor us then. And then that got us to the X Games and then a big Mitsubishi aftermarket shop, Slowboy Racing sponsored us. That got us the hauler and then suddenly we had more visibility and then we got more and more. Got Oakley and time. They take their personal holidays to come and race for me and I couldn't afford to pay. Eventually I'd pay like 100 bucks a day. But I took off from there and got an energy drink, got NOS energy and it's that fork in the road. It was like, it took that level of commitment but did I think it was over. Like when that hood flipped up. I'm like originally it was volunteers and man. But you know what, A lot of them look back at that. Some of the best times of their life too.

Yeah.

So it was, it was commitment. It was something.

Why do we look back on the hard times, right? Like we envy it or something. Like. Yeah. I look back at like sleeping in a band room and like going around every.

I guess I never Accepted it was over. Like, you just never accept it. You just keep fighting. And I guess if we had run out of money or if it hadn't worked, maybe I. Maybe I would have had to eventually accept it, but I just never did. And that kind of pigheadedness just meant that it finally all worked. And I burned people along the way. Man, I worked guys hard.

Buddy in, like, a van, smelly dudes, like, putting up your gear and didn't.

Pay them enough and tried did whatever I could and was good to them as a person, but they'd sacrifice their own personal.

Bring it down. And then, you know, you look back at that, and at the time, it was, like, miserable. But I guess. I don't know. I also look back on the times, like, where we could afford a van or we had, like, a crew or like, the first time I had a roadie to set up my stuff or whatever.

Like, yeah, they take their personal holidays to come and race for me, and I couldn't afford to pay them. Eventually, I'd pay them like, 100 bucks a day. But usually originally it was volunteers and, man. But. But you know what? They. A lot of them look back, it's.

Like you don't know what to do do with yourself. You know, it's funny.

I know I thought that some of the best times of their life, too.

Yeah.

So it was. It was commitment. It was something.

Why do we look back on the hard times and the best times? Right? Like, we envy it or something like that.

But I think if you haven't gone through that other process, you don't appreciate what the roadie's doing either. Like, when I drove for factory teams later, where I'd show up and they'd give me a helmet and a latte and say, we've done what you've wanted with the car, sir. More or less.

Yeah.

And I said, and they wouldn't be happy if we.

I look back at, like, sleeping in a band room and, like, going around.

Every finished second and there was anything left in the car, they wouldn't be happy. They wanted the car to be destroyed and win. Right?

And buddy in, like, a van, smelly dudes, like, putting up your gear, tearing it down. And then, you know, you look back at that, and at the time, it was, like, miserable.

That freed me up a lot. And, you know, I wouldn't have to apologize. Oh, this kid. Plates hanging off. There's three flat tires. It's smoking, but.

But I guess. I don't know. I also look back on the times like, where we could afford a van or we.

We won. Like, they're great, right? So. But I, you know, made me appreciate what they do and made. Made the relationship such that we could talk and, you know, I, you know, understood what they were doing. So. So, yeah, looking back, I mean, those. Those tough times had like a crew.

Or like, the first time I had a roadie to set up my stuff or whatever. Like. Yeah, it's like you don't know what to do. Do with yourself. You know, it's funny, I know that.

But I think if you haven't gone through that other process, you don't appreciate what the road is doing either. Like, when I drove for Factory, you know, you're poor, you're struggling. We were living in the. If we'd had a camera running in that motorhome in those days, like, crisscrossing the country and sponsors yelling at us sometimes and, oh, disasters and cars broken. How are we gonna make it to the next town? And, oh, like, you know, from being banned. Right. Like, how are we gonna get the gig? How. Teams later, where, you know, I'd show up and they'd give me a helmet and a latte and say, we've done what you wanted with the car, sir, or get paid and. But, wow, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And they wouldn't be happy if. If we'd finished second and there was anything left in the car, they wouldn't be happy. They want the car to be destroyed and win. Right.

And you know, the. The funniest part for me. So I went through this weird thing where, you know, I grew up in Seattle and, like, everybody there kind of with a. With a heartbeat, got a record deal because it was just going. It was going so crazy. And I was in a band that.

Freed me up a lot and, you know, I wouldn't have to apologize. Oh, this kid. Plates hanging off, there's three flat tires. It's smoking. But we won, like, great. So. But I, you know, made me appreciate.

It was doing really well. And we were, you know, we had. We'd had like a string of what.

They do and made. Made the relationship such that we could talk. And, you know, I have sold out.

Shows and people were paying attention to us and we just recorded a demo. But I had this weird. This weird, like, because everything was coming so easy, I had this fear of success, right. And, like, yeah.

Understood what they were doing. So. So, yeah, looking back, I mean, she's those. Those tough times, you know, you're poor, you're struggling. We were living in The. If we'd had a camera running in that motorhome in those days, like crisscrossing the country and sponsors yelling at us sometimes and oh, disasters and cars broken.

How we were. Ha. Like, you know, the sex and the fun and all that just seemed too decadent and everything was too easy and you would go places and people treated you different. Which still to this day I'm very uncomfortable when people treat me diff. Like I always want to tell people like I'm just a dude. Like, you know, like that. You know, it's weird. And so I quit the band like and join a Christian band because we're.

Making it to the next town and. Oh. Like you know it from being banned. Right. Like, how are we going to get the gig? How are we going to get paid and. But wow. Right.

Yeah. You know, the. The funniest part for me. So I went through this weird thing where, you know, I grew up in Seattle and like everybody there kind of with a. It was the stupidest thing I've probably ever done in my life. Right. So I joined this Christian band that was down here in California that had a development deal with island and the whole thing and touring in the Christian world was. We had a contract. Right. And in with a heartbeat got a record deal because it was just going. It was going so crazy. And I was in a band that was doing really well and we were, you know, we. We'd had like a string of our contract like so say they would pay us $10,000 to come. We were pretty big draw.

Yeah. Yeah.

Of sold out shows and people were paying attention to us and we just recorded a demo.

We'd have in there that you can't serve us pizza before the show. Like we wanted like real like sandwiches or chicken or whatever, but no pizza, no sandwiches. Right. That sort of thing.

In the rider.

In the rider.

Yeah.

Which it wasn't like green. Mm. But I had this weird. This weird like. Because everything Legendary. Yeah. And. And that we don't do altar calls. It was coming so easy. I had this fear of success.

Right.

And like we were have like, you know, the sex and the fun and all that just seemed to. And then you would show up, right. And this youth pastor would one say like we. They wouldn't pay us. And they'd say we're going to take an offering. Decadent. And everything was too easy. And you would go places and people treated you different. And then they'd say at what time are you going to do the altar call? And there'd Be pizza. Which still to this day, I'm very uncomfortable when people treat me like I always want to tell. And it was all under this premise of, well, like, praise the Lord, we're all in the same fight together to get people to come to Christ. And we're like, well, we're over here pretending we're a rock band. We're not trying to do altar calls and eat pizza on the road. Like, that's awesome, you know? And, yeah, people, like, I'm just a dude, like, you know, like that, you know, it's weird. And so I quit the band, like, and joined a Christian band because I miserable, like, it's miserable to sleep in an RV with a bunch of dudes. And it was the stupidest thing I've probably ever done in my life. Right. So I joined this Christian band that was down here in California that had a development deal with island and the whole thing. And, you know, in Christian bands there were hard, like, no groupie rules and all that, because that was our reputation, right. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was miserable. What do sponsors get mad about?

Oh, yeah, it really depends on the sponsor. Like, ultimately, ultimately I got to have a great deal where I was sponsored by, like a rally school team, o'. Neill.

And touring in the Christian world was. We had a contract, right? And in our contract, like, so say, they would pay us $10,000 to come. We're pretty big draw.

Yeah. Yeah.

We'd have in there that you can't service pizza before.

And ford Performance and B.F. goodrich. Right. Like, and they're all experts, right? And they. They know, sometimes they understand it, right. And. And they know what it's going to cost and we know what it's going to cost. And it's a fair business arrangement. We're good people. We get along. Right. In the early days, because you're piecing it together. I had like 20 sponsors, right. You know, and some of them were great, like JE Pistons and Manly Riley. They supply this and that and they're not much money, but we get this for the show.

Like, we wanted, like, real, like, sandwiches or chicken or whatever, but no pizza, no sandwiches. Right. That sort of thing.

In the rider.

In the rider, yeah. Which it wasn't like Green M and M. Legendary. Yeah. And. And that we don't do altar calls stuff for free.

It's important, Right. Keeps the cost down. But then we had some sponsors who were not.

And then you would show up, right. And this youth pastor, sophisticated in the.

Motorsports world, or they. They kind of. I don't know they were just a little bit.

There. Maybe they were too passionate. Right. But we had, we had man we always did everything we could to support them and do what was necessary. But we had some people who would.

One say like we, they wouldn't pay us and they'd say we're going to take an offering and then they'd say at what time are you going to do the altar call? And there'd be pizza. And it was all under this premise of well like praise the Lord, we're all in the same fight together to get.

Who supplied stuff to us and wanted to.

Oh we had, we had angry phone calls. I'm flying out and taking my truck back and you know we're, we're going to cut off everything. You're not getting any more money. Not because we had done or not done anything but because I, you know we weren't performing mid season people to come to Christ.

And we're like well we're over here pretending we're a rock band. We're not trying to do alter or.

We weren't giving them the visibility they wanted and we never over, we tried.

Never to over promise calls. Any pizza on the road, like that's awesome.

You know and yeah, you know it's like.

But they wanted you to show up to a radio station or something.

No, no, we have, we were told to be a radio station.

It's miserable. Like it's miserable to sleep in an RV with a bunch of dudes and you know, in Christian bands you. There were, there were hard like no groupie rules and all that.

We were always at the radio station, man. It's just, it's, you know, I think it's, it's just I'm thinking about investors now like in, in a company that I have and you know you're better off having a few big professional investors than you are having like 40 friends and family who are like saying like.

Because that was our reputation.

Right.

Yeah. And so yeah, it was miserable.

We're responsible going today. How's it going today? How's it going today? Right? Which is. And you know if you have 20 sponsors and you're getting mad about oh yeah, it really depends on the sponsor. Like ultimately the X Games. Well then you have to devote one person just run tickets out to the front counter to get everybody their tickets to come in and that's, that's fair. That's, that's, that's what it ought to be like. But if you're dealing with Ford and Michelin or bf, goodrich Ultimately, I got to have a great deal where I was sponsored by, like, a rally school. Tim o' Neill and, and Ford Performance and BF Goodrich. Right. Like. And they're all experts, right? And they, they, they already have their packages sorted. We mail it to them and they're good, Right. I think that, you know, sometimes they understand it, right? And, and they know what it's going to cost, and we know what it's going to cost. And it's a fair. It was just.

We had, we had people promise us money. Like, we had big companies that shell remain nameless. We signed.

Let's name them.

Let's name them. I can't. I can't.

You're not looking for sponsors now.

It's more than that. I just, I don't want to. I don't want to put the bad car in our business arrangement. We're good people. We get along. Right. In the early days, because you're piecing it together. I had like 20 sponsors, right. You know, and some of them are great, like Je. Pistons and manly riding. They supply this and that. They're not much money, but we get the stuff for free. It's important, right. Keeps the cost down. But then we had some sponsors who were not out in the world about it, but they're, you know, we had big brand sponsors who we signed deals with and we, we did what, what we promised and they never paid us. McDonald's sophisticated in the motorsports world, or they, they kind of. I don't know, they were just a little bit. No.

Sears. You keep going. Just keep going.

And Caesar's Palace Casino in Las Vegas.

It was them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was. Maybe they were too passionate, right? But we had, we had. Man, we always did everything we could to support them and do what was necessary, but we had some people who, who supplied stuff to us and wanted to.

Oh, yeah, it was just, it was disheartening. But it was also like, well, there's 10,000 bucks, 15,000 bucks that you just. You counted on and didn't get. And suddenly you're like, okay, well, we can't say we're not gonna make the next race because the other sponsors are depending on you to make the nice race. And you can't build in much of a slush fund because you're maxed out anyway and you don't want to drive slower. And that's what the problem is, that gets in your head. Well, I don't want to break the transmission. We had angry phone calls. I'm flying out and taking my truck back and you know, we're, we're going to cut off everything and I don't want to, you know, DB that tire. Right. So look, it's a real balance and we were lucky to kind of navigate the waters and make it work. But it's, it's full time, full thing. You're not getting any more money. Not because we had done or not done anything, but because, you know, we weren't performing mid season or we weren't giving them the visibility they wanted. And we never over, we tried never to over promise. You know, it's like.

But they wanted you to show up to a radio station or something?

No, no, we have fans. We were told to be a radio station brain, you know, full commitment to do that kind of thing. And I admire, I look at other people now coming up through the, through the order and I like, I respect them and I remember what it was like and I think I could only do it once in my life and we were always at the radio station, man. It's just, it's, you know, I think it's, it's just, I'm thinking about it.

You can only do it if you're passionate. There's no way to cheat it. Right?

Exactly right.

Unless dad's super rich or something.

Well, and the problem there is that like there's no way to cruise it. But if that is super rich and is making it all easy for you investors now like in a company that I have and you know, you're better off having a few big professional investors than you are having like 40 friends and family who are like saying like I'm not sure that you're hungry enough sometimes to get it done.

Gotta sleep on a floor every once in a while.

Yeah, well, it's rare. The well funded kid that actually drives really well. It happens. I know. How's it going today? How's it going today? How's it going today? Right. Which is. And you know if you have 20 sponsors and you're at the X Games, well then you have to devote one person to just run tickets up to the front counter to get everybody their tickets to come in. Some of those guys, and they're great guys, nothing against it, but they had the resources from the start and they become good racers too. Their motivation has to be a little bit different. I admire some guys like you. Take. I'm going to name somebody Rob McEachern in off road racing who's like won the Baja 1000 several times. Teammate of mine, of BF Goodrich he didn't have a silver spoon, but he built it up all himself. And he's. Now he's older than me, he was around my age, but he is like, he's one of the few. And that's fair, that's what it ought to be like. But if you're dealing with Ford and Michelin or B.F. goodrich, they already have their packages sorted. We mail it to them and they're good. I think that it was just.

We had, we had people promise us money. Like we had big cases where a grassroots guy built it up, built it up, built it up, built it up. And now he's got the million dollar trucks because of all the sponsors, Rockstar and B.F. goodrich and others. But he never had, he never had an easy spend on familiar companies that shell our main nameless. We signed.

Come on, let's name them.

I can't truck, which is crazy. But then there are also great competitors who have had the resources to do great too. It's just a different.

What's the difference between rally and Baja? Strategy wise?

Yeah. Interesting. So, so I can't.

You're not looking for sponsors now?

It's more than that. I just, I, I don't want to, I don't want to put the bad karma in the world about it, but they're, you know, we had big brand sponsors who we signed deals with and we, we did what, what we promised and they never paid us. McDonald's rallying has for now decades been like, the margins are extremely narrow. We would. In 2014, we were competing on the sharp edge sign. We were driving this driving sign against a Ford and we would finish stages like, I don't think there was a couple rallies. We weren't more than 13 seconds apart. Right. Which is tight racing. And we were like wide open, like whatever. No, we never had Sears. You keep going, just keep going.

And Caesar's Palace Casino. In long time, it was them.

Yeah, no, it was, it was just, it was disheartening. But it was also like, well, there's 10,000 bucks, 15,000 bucks that you just takes. Don't worry about breaking the car. My experience with Baja, because I've never raced a trophy truck in Baja, but everything else in Baja, you're managing destruction. You're like trying to not wreck the vehicle because counted on and didn't get. And suddenly you're like, okay, well, we can't say we're not going to make the next race because it's so rough. It's such a long event. You only have one crack at it. There are only the pit stops are on the other sponsors are depending on you to make the next race and you can't build in much of a slush fund because you're maxed out anyway and you don't want to drive slower and that's what the problem is that gets in your head. Well, I don't want to break the transmission. I don't want to, you know, DB that tire, right. So look, it's a real balance in clock, right. You know, whereas in rally you stop and you have 20 minutes to work in the car and whatever you have to do can get done. We were lucky to kind of navigate the waters and make it work. But it's, it's full time. Full. I'm going to find the you back out at Baja. It's like on the fly once you have to stop to refuel and do tires. Well, if you need to fix anything, you better fix it then. But the idea is to never break it. So the classes that I run in BC in Class 10, Baja Challenge in Class 10 with BF Goodrich, which has been. BF Goodrich is a brain, you know, full commitment to do that kind of thing. And I admire, I look at other people now coming up through the order and I like, I respect them and I remember what it was like and I think I could only do it once in my life.

You can only do it if you're passionate. There's no way to cheat it, right?

Exactly right. Unless huge 800 pound gorilla there because they're my partner. It works out great.

That's what you want.

Yeah.

Well, that's super rich or something.

Well, and the problem there is that like there's no way to cruise it. But if dad is super rich and is making it all easy for you, they're a great company of good. Is a family of people and they've been. And I started racing with them, you know, 15 years ago now in rally and they've become my great friends. So it's great for me to go to Baja where they support everybody. If you're on BF Goodrich tires, even if you're not on the team, there's seven semi trailers called into the pit support program and they pepper them around. I'm not sure that you're hungry enough sometimes to get it done.

It's rare down asleep on a floor, everyone.

Yeah, well, it's rare the well funded kid that actually drives really well. It happens. I know some of those guys and they're great guys. Nothing against it, but they had the resources from the start and they become good racers too. Their motivation on the race course. And you can put one of your spare tires with one of those trucks, another fuel can with another and you roll in to be a little bit different. I admire some guys like I'm going to Name Somebody Rob McEachern. In Off Road racing. You're the last car in the whole Baja 1000 and they'll be waiting for you there with welders and food and stuff. Just because you're with B.F. goodrich, like who's like won the Baja 1000 several times. Teammate of mine. Of Bfgoodrich. He didn't have a silver spoon but he built it just because you were in the tires. So I love that anyway. What's the difference? So the classes that I run in, the whole goal is don't destroy the vehicle. Which means you're only ever driving at 70 or 80% now. Million dollar trophy truck. They're a million bucks because they can go wide open. But there's only 14 of them. Or set up all himself. And he's. He's. Now he's, he's older than me. He was around my age. But he is like. He's one of the few cases where a grassroots guy built it up, built it up, built it up, built it up. And now he's got the million dollar trucks because of all the sponsors. Rockstar and B.F. goodrich and others. But he never had. He never had an easy spend. A million small number of them. Right. And. But that's the way rally is.

How are they built different than dollar truck.

Which is crazy. But then there are also great competitors who have had the resources to do great too. It's just a different mindset.

What's the difference between rally and Baja? Strategy wise?

Yeah. Interesting. So.

So they can go wide open.

You ever look at the engineering underneath the trophy truck? It's unbelievable. It's like it's built like an aircraft. It's like. Welds are incredible. The fabrication shops in Southern California and Nevada for desert racing are some of the best fabricators in the world. Perfect rallying has for now decades been like. The margins are extremely narrow. We would. In 2014 we were competing on the sharp edge sign. We're driving sign against a Ford. And. And we would finish stages. Like I don't think there was a couple rallies. We weren't more than 13 seconds apart. Right. Which is tight racing. And we were like wide open. Like whatever Welds incredible speck of steel. Super long arms. Incredible suspension travel. 30 plus inches of suspension travel. The shock absorbers have to have heat dissipators because the biggest problem is the shocks overheating. And you have to manage the heat and the shocks. You go through the whoops in San Felipe and you see the suspension pumping, pumping, pumping. And remember, you got like a, you know, 100 pound weak takes. Don't worry about breaking the car. My experience with Baja, because I've never raced a trophy truck in Baja, but everything else Baja, you're managing destruction. You're like trying to not wreck the vehicle because it's so rough. It's such a long event, you only have one crack at it. There are only. The pit stops are on the keel, pumping up and down. Right. And spinning at the same time. With all the suspension components, all this welded steel, the shocks take an incredible abuse. Great manufacturers, King and Fox and these others that make these insane big shocks. And then the technology in the shocks, progressive dampening and bypasses so that it's pliant down low. But as it compresses closer, it gets stiffer. Right. Like it's crazy stuff. And remote canisters, big volume block. Right. You know, whereas in rally you stop and you have 20 minutes to work in the car. And whatever you have to do or can get done in 20 minutes, finally you're back out at Baja. It's like on the fly. Once you have to stop to refuel and do tires. Well, if you need to fix anything, you better fix it then. But the idea is to never break it. So the classes that I run in B.C. and Class 10 Baja Challenge and Class 10 with BF Goodrich, which has been. BF Goodrich is a human. So they cool and fins on those. What cools them, either the air passing over them or some people have gone into liquid cooling shocks. Like it's insane. Insane. It's more important than brakes. You know, you hardly ever slow down.

Right.

Right. In Baja, but your suspension's always moving. Right. So incredibly beefy and huge 800 pound gorilla there. Because they're my partner, it works out great.

That's what you want.

Yeah. Well, they're a great company of good. Is a family of people and they've been. And I, I started racing with them, you know, 15 years ago now in rally and they've become my great friends. So it's great for me to go to Baja where they support everybody know if you're on bf gooders, incredibly well engineered, 800 horsepower, powerful and yet can go for a thousand miles. Wide open tires. Even if you're not on the team. There's seven semi trailers call it into the pit support program and they pepper them around and it's, it's in terms of an expensive motorsport that doesn't really pay back its money off. Road racing is the gold plated standard because the million dollar truck rarely is sponsored for the million bucks.

Love it.

Yeah. But you know, if you get the energy drinks sponsors, rob Max with Rockstar and the race course and you can put one of your spare tires with one of those trucks and another fuel can with another and you roll in, you're the last car in the whole Baja 1000 and they'll be waiting for you there with welders and food and stuff. Just because you're with B.F. goodrich, like just because you're running the tires. So I love that anyway, what's the difference? So the classes that I run in and so on, they make it work. And other guys have the money, but they're beautiful machines, weapons. They can't go around. The whole goal is don't destroy the vehicle. Which means you're only ever driving at 70 or 80%. Now million tarmac corners, they'll lift the tire and they don't work on tarmac. But 100 miles an hour on a dry lake bed, same.

That's amazing. What, so what do you think is happening in automotive with the consumers changing.

You know, a trophy truck, they're a million bucks because they can go wide open. Right. But there's only 14 of them or some small number of them. Right. And. But that's the way rally is.

How are they built different that they can go wide open?

Do you ever look at the engineering underneath the trophy truck? It's unbelievable.

Kids don't, you know, they don't have posters of the Baja trophy trucks.

It's like it's built like an aircraft. It's like welds are incredible. The fabric on their wall.

Right. They don't, they don't aspire to get their driver's license.

Yeah.

Car sales are down.

I think it's a very interesting question. And I work with Ford a lot on stuff and I know that's one of the things that they're thinking about. Concerned with cation shops in Southern California and Nevada for desert racing are some of the best fabricators in the world. Perfect welds, incredible speck of steel, super long arms, incredible suspension travel. 30 plus inches of suspension travel. The shock absorbers have to have heat dissipators. Look, I don't think mobility is going to change People are still going to move around in cars a lot. It's not as though public transit is suddenly on a huge rock because the biggest problem is the shocks overheating and you have to manage the heat and the shocks. You go through the whoops or scooters or bikes, maybe even if they should be, people still need to move around. So whether or not individuals are going to own cars or ride sharing outfits are going to own cars or fleets of like Turo and Boro and get around these.com companies that you get a car for. I need to, you know, I need to go to your radio show. I'm just going to pick up a car and drive it there and leave it there. There's still going to be cars, right? It's in San Felipe and you see the suspension pumping, pumping, pumping. And remember you had like a, you know, 100 pound wheel pumping up and down, right? And spinning at the same time. With all the suspension components, all this welded steel, the shocks take an incredible abuse. And you know, great manufacturers, King and Fox and these others that make these insane big shocks and then the technology in the shocks, progressive dampening and bypasses so that it's, it's, it's pliant down low. But is it compressed? Are. Do kids have the passion for it? I mean, I see it both ways. You know, you look down in Glamis or the demons here or whatever, people's kids in the office community, all those people are still in the cars. This closer, it gets stiffer, right? Like it's crazy stuff. And remote canisters, big volume so they cool. And fins on those, what cools them either the air passing over them or some people, the next generation is as much as anybody. My kids work on my Model T with me and you know, they, they, they're getting programmed to love cars, right? But you know, if, I guess, I guess if I were a 16 year old and got into liquid cooling shocks like it's insane, Insane. It's more important than brakes. You know, you hardly ever slow down, right, right in Baja, but your suspension's always moving, right? So incredibly beefy. You know, somewhere in the non rural America, rural America, you still need cars to get anywhere. To get to the next, you know, town, you need a car, right? So people still want their mobility for their freedom. That's really why kids don't want to drive, right? But if you live in, I don't know, Chicago or something, like do you want a car when you're 16, maybe not incredibly well engineered, 800 horsepower powerful and yet can go for a thousand miles wide open. And it's, it's in terms of an expensive motor just taking lifts and ubers everywhere and is there a problem with that? I, it doesn't offend me. I actually a sport that doesn't really pay back its money off road racing is the gold plated standard because the million dollar truck rarely is sponsored for the million bucks.

Love it.

Yeah. But you know, if you get the energy drinks of sponsors, Rob Max with Rockstar and I work with Google a little on the robot car projects and I think automation is great frankly. Like I took a lift here today because I knew the parking would be, you know, kind of jacked up and downtown. Yeah. And so on. They make it work and other guys have the money but they're beautiful machines, weapons. They can't go around. And the only car that I have right now is actually a 05 GTO with an LS2 and a manual and we just discomact corners. They'll lift the tire and they don't work on tarmac but 100 miles an hour on a dry Lagos. Like I didn't really want to be on the 101 shifting while I'm like worried about what's going on with the company and stuff. So I just took a lift bed. Same.

That's amazing. So what do you think is happening in automotive with the consumers changing?

Is that a bad thing? If I could say hey car, hey my car, come pick me up and I could sit in the back while somebody that I really trusted to drive like a well programmed car could drive me.

Kids, you know, they don't have posters of the Baja Trophy trucks on their wall. Right. They don't, they don't aspire to get their driver's license.

I would totally do that. So to answer your question, what's the future with young people? I'm not too worried. I think that we're not going to change how young people are anyway. We have to find ways.

Yeah, car sales are down.

I think it's a very interesting question to make mobility in cars appealing to the next generation. And I think that, you know, I work with Ford a lot on stuff and I know it's one of the things that they're thinking about, concerned with. Look, I don't think mobility is going to change. People are still going to move around in cars a lot. It's not as though public transit is suddenly on a huge rise or scooters or bikes maybe even if they should be. People still need to Move around. So there's a really interesting environmental responsibility. I think that electrification is important and I think that new technologies, automation is going to be important and it's going to be important for the service industry to unlock those things. Also whether or not individuals are going to own cars or ride sharing outfits are going to own cars or fleets of like. But I, I'm not too worried and plus I mean I got, I got three and five year olds who I guarantee Truro and borrow and get around these.com companies that you get a car for. I need to, you know I need to go to your are going to be driving Volkswagen Beetles around manual transmissions around la because I'm gonna make a video shoot. I'm just gonna pick up a car and drive it there and leave it there. There's still gonna be cars, right?

Do kids have the passion for it? I mean I see it both ways. I'm gonna make them.

That was, that's one of my earliest memories is my mom when I'm like four and her Volkswagen Beetle and the, the floorboard was plywood.

You know you look down in Glamis or the demons here or whatever, people's kids in the office community, all those people are still in the cars.

So you could lift up the plywood and see the. Was my favorite thing as a kid. Yeah.

You'd see the next generation is as much as anybody. My kids work on my Model T with me and you know they, they.

They'Re getting from the freeway I'd lift it up and it'd be going you know like what are you doing? But it was the funnest thing programmed to love cars.

Right. But you know if I guess, I guess if I were a 16 year old in you know, somewhere in the non rural America, rural America, you still need cars to get anywhere to get.

To the next because the thing was like rusted out on the pan of that. That's a structural element of that air cooled Volkswagen. No power.

No power.

Wouldn't go up a hill.

Yep.

Yeah.

But now to get out, you know town you need a car. Right. So people still want their mobility for their freedom. That's really why kids don't want to drive right.

When it was going up the hill. Yeah.

Character. Yeah. Good to work on, good to learn on. So then but if you live in I don't know, Chicago or something like do you want a car when you're 16? Maybe not.

You tell us about Zip Tire. Like what was your like inspiration?

Just taking lifts and Ubers everywhere and is there A problem with that? It doesn't offend me. I actually I worked with Google a little on the robot car projects and I think automation is great frankly like I took a shin.

How did you come up with the idea?

Yeah, so it's a mobile tire business right that instead of you having to go to a tire shop we come to you. So I've got these trucks that go around LA and bring tires to people put them on in the driveway, they're placed lift here today because I knew the parking would be you know, kind of jacked up and.

Yeah, downtown.

Yeah. And work wherever they are. It takes about an hour. Right. But if you have to go to a tire shop you have to suffer through the hour and a half or two hours of that. And the only car that I have right now is actually a 05 GTO with an LS2 and a manual and we just. They're going to try to sell you whatever tires they have in inventory. What they're having their spiffs for, you know where's we're more brand like I didn't really want to be on the 101 shifting while I'm like worried about what's going on with the company and stuff. So I just took a lift. Is that a bad thing? If I could say hey car, hey my car, come pick me up in agnostic and people are starting to buy tires online. So how did I come up with it? I had just sold off. So I was driving for Toyota and then for Ford and I had sold off all my shop stuff I had and I could sit in the back while somebody that I really trusted to drive like a well programmed car could drive me. I had the truck and the shop stuff and the equipment and the tire machines and all that and I got. I would totally do that. So to answer your question, what's the future with young people? I'm not too. A few years ago I'd already drowned it for manufacturers but I thought I gotta get rid of this stuff before it's outdated and so not too worried. I think that we're not going to change how young people are anyway. We have to find ways to make mobility and cars appealing to the next generation. And I think that you know, and I need some capital. Anyway, so I sold it off and then Michelin sent me a set of tires. B.F. goodrich sent me a set. There's a really interesting environmental responsibility. I think that electrification is important and. And I think that tires for one of my cars and they showed up on the front Porch. And I realized suddenly I was going to have to go down to a tire shop and hire somebody to put them on my car. I was like, oh, new technology, automation is going to be important and it's going to be important for the service industry to unlock those things also. But geez, man, I can't even get them in the car. Right. And so I was kind of puzzling that. And I felt. But I, I'm not too worried. And plus, I mean I got, I got three and five year olds who I guarantee are going to be driving Volkswagen Beetles around manual transmissions around la because I'm going to make them. I'm going to make them.

That was, that's one of my earliest memories is my mom, when I'm asleep.

Woke up the next morning at like 5am Both upright in bed and realized wait a minute, I can put all this stuff from the race truck in the back of like a Transit or a sprinter van. And basically people mobile pit stops like we do in rallying. Right. Like, like it's. And you know, I thought about the.

Machinery like 4 and her Volkswagen Beetle and the, the floorboard was, was plywood.

In the power for it and the size of the van. I'm like slam dunk. This is. And I'm like this is going to change the tire industry.

So you could lift up the plywood.

And see the ground.

It was my favorite thing as a kid. Yeah. You see on the freeway I'd lift it up and it'd be going, you know, my mom be like what are you doing? But it was the funnest thing because the thing was like rusted out of that.

That's a structural element of that car.

Air cooled volts.

And I literally like I waited until they woke up in Greenville, South Carolina like called my Michelin people. I'm like, I'm going to change the tire industry.

Listen to this.

And they're like, yeah, there's a few people doing that already. There's about 15 guys across the country doing that. So suddenly I had to do my research and sure enough there were then, now there's about four.

No power.

No power.

Wouldn't go up a hill.

Yep.

Yeah. But are they using sprinters?

A lot of them are using sprinters and I use Transit when it was.

Going up the hill.

Yeah. Character. Yeah. Good to work on, good to learn on.

So then tell us about Zip Tire. Like what was your like inspiration? How did you come up with the idea?

Yeah. So it's a mobile tire business. Right. That instead of you having to go to a tire for various reasons we can discuss, but there were some guys who thought of it. And so I happened to be from Michelin. I was a talking head, B.F. goodrich, going across the country training dealers about tires, about tire technology. Because I'm a racer, all racers become tire geeks, right? Because that's the most important single component of your shop. We come to you. So I've got these trucks that go around LA and bring tires to people, put them on in the driveway, their place of work, wherever they are. It only takes about an hour, right? But if you have to go to a tire shop, you have to suffer through the hour and a half for two hours of that car is a tire. No matter how good your brakes are, no matter how good a driver you are, the tire is crucial. So we all become tire geeks and they're going to try to sell you whatever tires they have in inventory, what they're having their spiffs for, you know, Whereas we're more brand agnostic and people are starting to buy tires online. So how did I come up with it? I again, I could talk a bit about tires. And so as part of my quid pro quo with B.F. goodrich, part of my relationship is I go and train people on tires, right? So I would go to those dog and pony shows of like, come learn about this new tire that I had just sold off. So I was driving for Toyota and then for Ford and I had sold off all my shop stuff. I had tire. We do competitive tests. You drive this car, drive that car that's on a competitor tire. And now we'll talk about why that car works that way. This car, I had the truck and the shop stuff and the equipment and the tire machines and all that. And I got to a few years ago, I'd already drive it for manufacturers, but I thought I got to get rid of this stuff before it's outdated and so on this way. So I trained about 2,000 dealers about tire technology, tire dudes. And I realized.

Some of them are extremely well run, right? Some of them are great businesses, some of them, and I need some capital. Anyway, so I sold it off and then Michelin sent me a set of tires. B.F. goodrich sent me a set. The guys don't know much about tires and frankly I don't. I think it's kind of legacy stuff that's kind of grandpa, he started the tires for one of my cars and they showed up on the front porch and I realized shop. And they got three of them in this region and they're happy and it's going fine. Right. And so then suddenly I was going to have to go down to a tire shop and hire somebody to put them on my car. I was like, oh geez man, I can't even get them in the car right. And then so I was kind of puzzling that. And I felt putting that together with what I just realized that all the stuff can be in the back of a van. I'm like wait a minute, I can totally break this industry right now. There's a few more steps to get there, right? But it made me realize that woke up the next morning at like 5am Both upright in bed and realized wait a minute, I can put all this stuff from. I can bring my experience with tires and with motorsports and servicing people in a race truck in the back of like a Transit or a sprinter van and basically people mobile pit stops like we do in rallying, right. Like.

And you know, I thought about the machinery and the power for it and the size of the van. I'm like slam dunk. And I'm like this is going to change the tire industry field together with my relationships with tire manufacturers and figure out the business of tires, which I'm still doing. Right. And the back end incentives and so on with the dealer programs. And I literally like I waited until they woke up in Greenville, South Carolina. Like called my but once I put all those things together, I can align all the vectors to make mobile tire a thing because and I did my own survey and you know, I went to a couple of tire stores and how long does it take me and how much do I Michelin people. I'm like I'm going to change the tire industry.

Listen to this.

And they're like yeah, there's a few people doing that already. There's about 15 guys across the country doing that. So suddenly I had to do my research and sure enough there were then now there's about four for this process. Like some of our best customers and some of our best advocates are our stay at home moms who are.

Are they using sprinters?

A lot of them are using sprinters and I use Transit like in my mother, my mother, my wife was as has been one as I'm out on the road and doing stuff for various reasons we can discuss but there were some guys who thought of it and so I happened to be like she doesn't have time to spend an hour and a half at a tire shop and get probably get talked down to and not really know if she's getting the right tires and so on. You know, if she can have an online solution or a phone in solution for Michelin. I was a talking head bfgoodrich, going across the country training dealers about tires, about tire technology, right? Because I'm a racer. All racers become tire geeks, right? Because that's the most important single component. And we say, yeah, we're coming for the same and we do it for the same price as a reputable tire shop. They people love it. Car is a tire. No matter how good your brakes are, no matter how good a driver you are the tires crucial. So we all become tire geeks. And so we have five star reviews end to end. We have, you know, Yelp reviews and we earn a preferred installer for tire rack reviews in Tire Rack. People love the service, right? And so now I just have to. I'm working on the scaling of it. In the early days, I was very concerned. It's been going for about two years now. Again, I could talk a bit about tires. And so it was part of my quid pro quo with bfgoodrich. Part of my relationship is I'd go and train people on tires, right? So I would go to those, you know, dog and pony shows of like, come learn about this new tire that tires competitive test. You drive this car, drive that car that's on a competitor tire. And now we'll talk about why that car works that way. This car very concerned with making sure, you know, we got great reviews, service everybody extremely well this way. So I trained about 2,000 dealers about tire technology, tire dealers. And I realized, and it's very individualized service. It still is in a large way, but now we're working on making it more.

Some of them are extremely well run, right. Some of them are great businesses. Some of them are repeatable and scalable. So I'm building back office infrastructure to make sure that the scheduling works well. And after that, we have to really develop our E commerce customer facing site. Because the other thing about young people, millennials, the guys don't know much about tires. And frankly, I think it's kind of legacy stuff that's kind of grandpapy. Started the tire shop and they got three of them in this region and they're happy and it's going fine. Right. And so then putting that together with what I just realized that all the stuff can be in the back of a van. I'm like, wait a minute, I can totally break this industry. Frankly, a lot of them don't necessarily want to get on the phone to You.

No, they don't want to talk. Yeah, they'd rather text.

Well, right now there's a few more steps to get there. Right. But it made me realize that I can bring my experience with tires and with motorsports and servicing people in the field together with my relationships with tire manufacturers and figure out the business of tires, which I, and I respect that. Like, I like going to Amazon too, right. Like if I want some, you know, grade A bolts or whatever. Like I used to go to the hardware store, but frankly the hardware store's all messed up and people stole in the bolts or not in the right bins, whatever. If I can order one sole doing right and the back end incentives and so on with the, the dealer programs, ones that I know are reliable on Amazon, it's there tomorrow.

Yeah, same day. Same day here.

Yeah, I know. So we're kind of the same like, and I respect that if people want to. So interestingly, people are buying tires more online. But once I put all those things together, I can, you know, align all the, all the vectors to make mobile tire a thing because, and I, I did it my own survey and you know, I went through a couple of tire stores and how long does it take me and how, how much do I suffer this process? Like some of our best customers and some of our best advocates are our stay at home moms who are like in my mother, my mother, my wife has been one as I'm out on the road and doing stuff. There are lots of dot com tire retailers and some of them offer amazing prices. Tire Rack is great because they, they give all the reviews of the tires. I respect them greatly. Woody, the guy who does the reviews there is a friend of mine and they really, if you want to learn about tires, a great place to go and if you want to buy tires, she doesn't have time to spend an hour and a half at a tire shop and probably get talked down to and not really know if she's getting the right tires and so on. You know, if she can have an online solution or a phone in solution. And we say yeah, we're coming for the same and we do it for the same price as a reputable tire shop. People love it, it's cheap. There are other places where you probably get a little cheaper and some people research on Tire Rack and buy them at the cheaper places. So we have five star reviews end to end. We have Yelp reviews and we earn either way we'll install them. See, that's the other great thing about this model is that People are buying them online, they still got to get put on somewhere. Right. So we're an installer for Amazon. People buy the tires on Amazon, then they can choose us for their home service. Right. And we kind of close that circle. So we're a compliment to the online e tailers, but we also sell tires. Preferred installer for tire rack reviews and tire rack people love the service. Right. And so now I just have to, I'm working on the scaling of it. In the early days I was very concerned, it's been going for about two years now. Very concerned with making sure, you know, we got great reviews, serviced everybody extremely well. And it's very individualized service. It still is in a large way, but now we're working on making it more direct ourselves. And we don't have a brick and mortar warehouse. We just pick up at the distribution points every day. So all the suppliers, atd, ntw, tire hub and so on, we get a customer in and then we search, well, where can we get the best price or what do they have in inventory. And then we put that together with the customer, pick up the tires and put them on. I'm working to automate that procedure so that we can look through to their inventory, wrap our pricing and availability until repeatable and scalable. So I'm building back office infrastructure to make sure that the scheduling works well. And after that we have to really develop our e commerce customer facing site. Because the other thing about young people, millennials is frankly a lot of them don't necessarily want to get on the phone to you.

They don't want to talk. Yeah, they'd rather text and.

Well, and I respect that. Like I like going to Amazon too. Right. Like I if I want some, you know, grade eight bolts or top of that. And then importantly, like I say, I respect Tyrax advice. I want the most important thing for me. I want to make money and I want to grow this business. I got a family now, kind of retired from racing. I want to make, I want to make enough money to go buy my own million dollar trophy truck. Damn it. Eventually. So put the kids through college, then buy whatever. Like I used to go to the hardware store, but frankly the hardware store is all messed up and people stole in. The bolts are not in the right bins. Whatever. If I can order $1 million trophy truck, I. But as much as that, maybe almost more iPhones that I know are reliable on Amazon, it's there tomorrow.

Yeah, same day. Same day here.

Yeah, I know. So we're kind of the Same like. And I respect that if people want to. So interestingly, people are buying tires more online. There are lots of.com Tire retailers and some of them offer amazing prices. Tire. I want to teach people about tires and make sure that they make smart decisions about tires because as they're buying tires on there's a car that parks on my street here that has winter tires on it. And that happens. Yeah. And we actually, we do install some winter tires here every year because there are guys who are driving up to Mammoth or whatever. Yeah, there's a few of them. And those guys, they know what they're doing. Right. Track is great because they give all the reviews of the tires. I respect them greatly. Woody, the guy who does the reviews there, there's a car on my street and it had winter tires. And I finally cornered the person who had them and I said a friend of mine and they really, if you want to learn about tires, a great place to go. And if you want to buy tires, why do you have winter tires on? He said, well, I went to Costco and the cheapest tires were these ones.

They didn't even know cheap.

There are other places where you probably get a little cheaper and some people research on tire act and buy them at the cheaper places. Either way, we'll install them. See, that's the other great thing about this model is that people are buying them online. They still got to get put on somewhere. So we're an installer for Amazon. People buy the tires on Amazon then they can choose us for their home service and we kind of close that circle. So we're a compliment to the online e tailors. But we also sell tires.

Know what they had?

I think no, they didn't know. And I don't think Costco. I don't know if Costco cared or not. Right. But it's like the online price. So there. So people buying tires online. Look, I don't. I have some respect for. I have a lot of respect for a lot of tire shops, but I but individual direct ourselves. And we don't have a brick and mortar warehouse. We just pick up at the distribution points every day. So all the.

That's the Canadian in you. You don't have any respect for tire shops?

Well, suppliers atd, ntw, tire hub and so on. We get a customer in and then we search, well, where can we get the best price or what do they have in inventory. And then we put that together with the customer, pick up the tires and put them on. I'm working to automate Being Canadian there, maybe look, but having talked to some guys at the counter, well, having trained the guys behind the count that procedure so that we can look through to their inventory, wrap our pricing and availability about tires. And they're asking me questions like I'm like, oh, you really don't know about tires, do you? Right, that. And some of them are great, some of them are smart, but not all of them. Top of that. And then importantly, like I say, I respect Tyrax advice. I want the most important thing that I want to break that system. I want people to get real good advice about for me. I want to make money and I want to grow this business. I got a family now, kind of retired from racing. I want to make, I want to make enough money to go buyers because they're going to buy more and more online. Right. And I want them to buy from me online. But whether they, and I think Tyrack must have this attitude, whether they, they buy them from me or not, I want them to learn about them. So we have a series of videos. You can go to our YouTube page and there's a series of videos first about like how do you read the sidewall of a tire? What does it mean for size, load rating, speed rating, which buy my own million dollar trophy truck, damn it. Eventually. So put the kids through college, then buy my million dollar trophy truck.

But as much as that, maybe almost more, I want to teach people about tires and make sure that they make smart decisions about tires. Because as they're buying tires, there's a car that parks on my street, people forget about all time. Time. Right. And what kind of tire do you need? I've got a little thing like what's an ultra high performance all season versus an ultra high performance here that has winter tires on it. And that happens. Yeah. And we actually, we do install some winter tires here every year because there are guys who are driving up to Mammoth or whatever. Yeah. There's a few of them. And those guys, they know what they're doing. Right. There's a car on my street and it had winter tires. And I finally cornered the person who had them and I said, summer tire goes through a glass transition point at 45 degrees below 45 degrees. Yesterday you want to run that off ramp in your Corvette, it's 47 degrees. And you did find. Today it's 43 and you hit the wall. Why'd that happen? Glass transition point of the tire. Here's how it works. Right. And you have tread depth checking across the face of the tire. Training people. Right. Because they're going to buy tires online. And why do you have winter tires on? He said, well, I went to Costco and the cheapest tires were these ones.

They didn't even know.

And I want them to do better and buy better tires online. And sure. I want them to then press the button and buy them from us and have us put them on.

Know what they had?

I think no, they didn't know. And I don't know they cost. I don't know if Costco cared or not. Right. But like the online price. So people buying tires online. Look.

I have a lot of respect for a lot of tire shops, but individual, that's the Canadian in you.

You don't have any respect for tire shops.

Well.